High Performance Stainless Steel Headers

[superstar]

****No affiliations****

Came across these headers on eBay
Now, I am not sure if there are any performance gains out of these headers! But they look nicely done.
Anyone speaks German? Please translate the descriptions of the auction or contact the seller for more details.

http://www.ebay.de/itm/Mercedes-W-1...=Automobile&hash=item35cf7e41ca#ht_755wt_1241

Price is $699 EUR (approx $1000 USD).

Auction description:

"Das sind Shorty Fächerkrümmer für die Serien Katalysatoren.
So steht es auch bei Supersprint drin.

Das ist für die Ganz Schlauen,die alles besser wissen wollen.

Die immer über ebay Schreiben,und doch nichts wissen.
Mercedes W 124 500 E V 8 Bj 1990 - 1993 mit 4973ccm 255KW (326PS )

Für den M 119 Motor


Neuer Edelstahlfächerkrümmer.
MADE IN GERMANY.
Top Ware und Neu

Der Fächerkrümmer ist aus den besten Nirostastahl (Edelstahl) 304
gefertigt, kein verziehen oder Risse an den Schweissnähten.

Ohne Tüvgutachten, kann aber beim Tüv per Einzelabnahme eingetragen werden.
Ohne Garantie und Rücknahme.
Nur innerhalb von Deutschland und Österreich"​

Google translation:

"These are shorty manifolds for the series catalysts.
So it is also in there at the Super Sprint.

This is for the whole smart who want to know everything better.

The always on ebay letter, and yet know nothing.
Mercedes W 124 500 EV 8 Bj 1990-1993 with 4973ccm 255KW (326PS)
For the M 119 engine

New stainless steel high.
MADE IN GERMANY.
goods and Top New The manifold is the best Nirosta (stainless steel) 304 manufactured, no warping or cracks at the welds. Tüvgutachten Without, but can be registered with the technical approval by individual approval.
"​

 

[gerryvz]

Don't look equal length to me, so the flow is going to be off. Would they be much of an improvement over the factory stuff?

NEEEEEED butt-dyno results !!

 

[Maui]

I would not consider those to be headers. They look like stainless exhaust manifolds to me.

I think it says "The shorty, shiny, fuckin' exhaust manifolds", and few other things, but my German ain't so good. Please excuse my French.

 

[quicksilver500]

Basically tube version of manifolds, this is basically what all the new kleeman/renntech "headers" look like these days...I think you could have them made here for that price or less.

 

[gsxr]

Is this a joke? Those won't fit the M119. They look like M113 shorty headers.

M119 manifold shown below. Note the twin ports and completely different bolt pattern.

 

[sheward]

I would really like a set of similar size/type headers for that price for the weight savings alone but it's going to take a lot of experience to get the ports matched and to deal with the dissimilar metals expansion/contraction problem the way MB did.

drew

 

[modzona]

Is another one that thinks he has m119 stainless exhaust manifolds.

​http://www.ebay.de/itm/Mercedes-W-1...d=100005&prg=1073&rk=2&rkt=5&sd=231114424778&

 

[gsxr]

I don't think I would risk buing anything from a seller that clueless.

 

[modzona]

I did ship some questions to the seller with the "e60 manifolds"
Will report back if it will fit and the images is just wrong. If he bothers to answers at all.

 

[samiam44]

"Basically tube version of manifolds, this is basically what all the new kleeman/renntech "headers" look like these days...I think you could have them made here for that price or less. '"

Not true as a owner of Renntech headers on my car- they are 4X2X1 setup. They are not short tube headers, perhaps they made more than one different style.



Michael

 

[Jackasic]

that is a butt terrible design, not much better than stock. Don't waste your money.

 

[modzona]

Well the answer i got was just :

Dear modzona,

Hi.
Please look by www.goeckel.de

- froschlurch_123

But the images on that site of the manifolds is a bit different.

 

[gsxr]

Those are still M113 shorty headers. These guys think that because the M119 is a V8, and M113 is a V8, that the same headers will fit both? Oy.

 

[Christian_K]

Funny guy, these are 100% M113 headers. Ask me how i know...
Especially his text is funny.. he mentioned and criticizes other users that quote "this is for the smartasses that can only write over ebay but have no real clue" unquote

 

[clarkz71]

This is what M119 stainless headers look like.

 

[sheward]

Those look nice. Do you have any more info/contact no.?

drew

 

[gsxr]

I believe those are the headers Chicky had custom made for his 129.066 in the Phillipines. Additional photos are here.


Below are some more headers from a 500E, the long-tube ones were from Sweden/Norway/Finland IIRC, someone on the old 500Ecstasy forum. No details though, sorry.

 

[Rouven036]

WOW these longtubes are the way to go! I would buy them straight away! The 3-Y design will def. do something...
On the other side I'm also quiet sure that the shorty's won't gain much if anything.

 

[Maui]

I love the long tubes, especially the first picture from the bottom. The way the builder had to bed the pipes all over the place to maintain the equal lengths. I have to wonder, though, how all those bends and radii affect the flow. Those radii and bends will create flow losses.

 

[clarkz71]

I believe those are the headers Chicky had custom made for his 129.066 in the Phillipines.

Yes, they are.

Long tubes are nice, but the shorties are bolt on. No serious mods.

 

[Germanautoservice]

As long as the bends are not crushed at all the flow will be just fine. The builder did a great job on those. I thought about doing something like those. I've seen the pictures of those before. Very nice work.

 

[superstar]

Very interested in the long tubs, but iam just wondering if there were any proven performance gains?

 

[Germanautoservice]

I would build some, but the exhaust would have to be modified dramatically . Plus the cost to build would be huge. I know I could prove performance , power gains but I would bet they would sit on my shelf for ages. Most people won't take a perfect e500/500e and cut and modify. Most folks on here are purest... Maybe gsxr would, Dave want some headers lolol

 

[gsxr]

If they would make ~20hp/tq with no losses anywhere in the curve, and were 100% bolt-on (I don't do welding)... it would be tempting. However, we could probably get similar gains from custom camshafts for less total $$$$. (????)

 

[Germanautoservice]

Yeah, it would be more for the " look at me factor" way to much time to build. But hey, we all know I get bored fast! Someone may have a set of headers , I'll build them and get bored. Then I'll sell em.....

 

[modzona]

The long tube headers looks like art too me.

Want them on my wall !!!

 

[Rouven036]

I want them in the car.... The biggest issue is that there is nobody building them, they should be made with a complete front section including X pipe and race cats...

The picture shows that even small to very small production runs can be done. It's a DTM replica manifold for my Evo 1.

 

[Maui]

I would bet if there was enough interest and a mule that American Racing Headers would build a few sets. The cost, however, may not be worth the ponies.

 

[chicky]

This is what M119 (R129) stainless headers look like.

Hello clarkz71,
No wonder they look familiar

 

[chicky]

Hi Dave,
Weren't the s/s shorty headers with the flexible joints from Niibe, during the 500ecstacy days? I based mine on those headers.

O/T: Happy Holidays

 

[gasers]

Hello!

I want those long tube headers if anywone could make them for me...
Because i sell Miller welding products, welding is not a problem, but the layout and calculation of the headers must be done by expert!

You give me headers i give you a Miller TIG welding machine!!! NO PROBLEMS!!

Take care!

 

[036/199]

The shorties will not gain anything and the long tubes will not gain much(the Y-collectors have wrong placement and shape,some of the bends of the primaries are too "edgy")..


As I said,if there is enough interest,I can get a good headers(means proven power and torque gains,high quality materials used,..) done by none a very reputable European exhaust manufacture.

Headers like these is what I am talking about:

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The headers in the pics above did cost us a lot money in R&D,but they were worth it.
Various designs were built and simulated,jigs madeand every single one of them tested on the road and on a state of the art MAHA dyno.
Until we found a layout that is the best compromise between power and torque gains throughout the rpm range.



I would even make a trip to the manufacture with my 036 as the test mule for the project.

But given the Merc scene is not that much in mods,it will be wishful thinking...



[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE]

 

[clarkz71]

The shorties will not gain anything and the long tubes will not gain much(the Y-collectors have wrong placement and shape,some of the bends of the primaries are too "edgy")..


As I said,if there is enough interest,I can get a good headers(means proven power and torque gains,high quality materials used,..) done by none a very reputable European exhaust manufacture.

Headers like these is what I am talking about:

The headers in the pics above did cost us a lot money in R&D,but they were worth it.
Various designs were built and simulated,jigs madeand every single one of them tested on the road and on a state of the art MAHA dyno.
Until we found a layout that is the best compromise between power and torque gains throughout the rpm range.



I would even make a trip to the manufacture with my 036 as the test mule for the project.

But given the Merc scene is not that much in mods,it will be wishful thinking...

Do you have any pics of M119 headers built like those above?

 

[195910]

A lot of debate about headers, but no one can prove gains (although there SHOULD be gain from headers). Price is also a problem.

 

[036/199]

Do you have any pics of M119 headers built like those above?

No,this was only to show what kind of headers I was thinking of and to show what kind of quality...

 

[gsxr]

Hi Dave,
Weren't the s/s shorty headers with the flexible joints from Niibe, during the 500ecstacy days?

Yes, I believe so. Niibe did not share details, AFAIK. Just the few photos.

 

[gerryvz]

A lot of debate about headers, but no one can prove gains (although there SHOULD be gain from headers). Price is also a problem.

+1

 

[Ron500E]

A lot of debate about headers, but no one can prove gains (although there SHOULD be gain from headers). Price is also a problem.

The science of headers is interesting and a LOT of work. Just because someone can weld tubes, even tubes of the same length, does not mean that there will be any power gain. Done incorrectly the best looking tubular header may even produce a loss of power.
Does anyone read the EGT at various points along each tube, what about the issue of reversion, has anyone addresses that? The list is almost endless as to what goes into a header design that produces extra HP. And no one I have seen has done anything other than produce nice looking, very nice looking in fact, headers. And there's a place in this hobby for just bling. But if one is looking for HP, or more importantly, torque gains then nice looking headers are probably not the best ROI.

One needs a LOT of trial and error not to mention a good chassis dyno and a mule to properly design a system that produces even the minimal gain. Maybe about 100 hours dyno time and various designs MIGHT produce something worthwhile but all I have seen are one-off's with no before - after testing. And certainly no dyno sheets. Mercedes must have spend many millions of DM (Euro's-Dollars) just to design their exhaust manifolds, which admittedly are probably a compromise, so don't try to reinvent the wheel with a zero budget.
So.... some nice TIG welded stainless equal length headers may have the bling factor but as far as performance gain... the only gain likely comes from the reduction of weight in the buyers wallet.
Just my opinion, not trying to offend.
Kind Regards,

Ron

 

[Glen]

It's interesting that no one has successfully made headers for the M119 that produces appreciable gains in power. The stock system doesn't look all that efficient so it's odd that even crappy headers aren't an improvement.

In the E39 M5 world, headers and a tune is good for 30 hp on average. And note that BMW equipped the M5 with headers from the factory.

Back to the M119, the bottleneck must be the intake and antiquated LH and EZL systems. Until someone unlocks the EZL, we probably won't see significant hp increases.

 

[Maui]

I'm not surprised with eight exhaust ports. It is a shame that there appears to be no way to tweak the ECU.

 

[Rouven036]

No company ever tried to make headers for the 119, its all done by private hands. Headers will cost money but they will give a bump up in power. If it's worth the money the individual can decide only for himself. A 4 in 1 System will not work well since it is mainly for top end performance. Where a 4-2-1 (3y) will support gains in the middle and upper rum range. Primary pipe diameter plays also a big roll in that. The most limiting factor for header design is the space in the 500's engine compartment. That's why I think the previously shown 3y design is about the maximum what can be done. It is also very clear that even a proper header will gain not much more then 20HP, NA tuning isn't cheap nor easy. But I would go for it if there would be some to buy except the shortys... For example a M156 6.2L has also crappy factory manifolds, throw a proper set of headers on and the engine characteristic changes noticeably even so the gains are in the 40HP range. Keep in mind that the base has already about 500HP so in our case there would be maximum 20 to 25HP achievable. With proper cams can maybe reach about 40.

 

[036/199]

A 4 in 1 System will not work well since it is mainly for top end performance.

Nope,not true.

 

[036/199]

Do you have any pics of M119 headers built like those above?

Unfortunately not.

These are pics of our E39 M5 headers during the development at Supersprint.

They are our development partner and supplier of our exhaust systems.

I would really like to drive to the factory in Italy(like we did it with all the cars we sell headers for) and get them to build M119 headers.

 

[gasers]

Hi.

I sign upp for one set of headers if you can make some!!!

 

[Jackasic]

we are prototyping headers for m113 E55s and m117s, try Ys with a primaries in 14" range. I have a good US manufacturer who is going to be producing them for us in about the 2K range for stainless. Need to talk Jerry in to letting me borrow his car for a few months

 

[gerryvz]

we are prototyping headers for m113 E55s and m117s, try Ys with a primaries in 14" range. I have a good US manufacturer who is going to be producing them for us in about the 2K range for stainless. Need to talk Jerry in to letting me borrow his car for a few months

I have a freshly refurbished (coated) set of factory M117 tri-ys. Are your headers going to be more efficient than the factory tris?

 

[Jackasic]

loads!

 

[Christian_K]

In my opinion the stock system is more or less efficient.
Look at crappy M113K stock exhaust manifolds for example, where the collector-port is only 1.6inches in diameter!!! And it sits at one end - not in the middle of all ports per side. Thats no wonder all headers make 40WHP++ at those M113K engines.
The stock M119 manifolds "exit" looks good sized. Also the the exit-port/collector-ports sits right in the middle of all 4(8) exhaust ports of the head which is quite good.

I can't see any header doing significant gains at naturally aspirated M119 motors.

 

[szvook]

Well, I'm going to take the plunge (hopefully in 2-3 months) and have a set of long tube headers and 300 cell cats custom build by Dyno Comp out of Arizona. They have a done a few headers for w124 chassis in the past; an E500, 400E and E420 cars with 30hp gains that were dyno proven. They still have a jig from the E500 headers, but it's an old jig and they prefer to make custom headers to be sure the fitment is not going to be an issue. They did mention that they are aware of the fitment issues the 036 cars have and the owner of the shop loves the 036 cars and said making proper headers is not a problem, as long as they have the car in their hands. When they made the headers for the W124 cars, all cars were in their hands, so my only option is to send my car over to them for a week and they can have their car delivery service pick up and drop off my car in L.A. for $300. The cost for making custom headers and cats and the labor to install them will be $5.5K. I was told that I will yield at least 30hp and that the car would be dyno'ed before and after the work is done. http://dyno-comp.com/tuning.php

Bellow is an example of what they offer - http://dyno-comp.com/details.php?browse_make=Mercedes&model=68&type=80&browse_submit=GO unfortunately the headers and cats listed there are not what I can buy for my car, so I don't mind paying a bit more for a custom job and with prove of the hp gains.

 

[gerryvz]

Well, I'm going to take the plunge (hopefully in 2-3 months) and have a set of long tube headers and 300 cell cats custom build by Dyno Comp out of Arizona. They have a done a few headers for w124 chassis in the past; an E500, 400E and E420 cars with 30hp gains that were dyno proven. They still have a jig from the E500 headers, but it's an old jig and they prefer to make custom headers to be sure the fitment is not going to be an issue. They did mention that they are aware of the fitment issues the 036 cars have and the owner of the shop loves the 036 cars and said making proper headers is not a problem, as long as they have the car in their hands. When they made the headers for the W124 cars, all cars were in their hands, so my only option is to send my car over to them for a week and they can have their car delivery service pick up and drop off my car in L.A. for $300. The cost for making custom headers and cats and the labor to install them will be $5.5K. I was told that I will yield at least 30hp and that the car would be dyno'ed before and after the work is done. http://dyno-comp.com/tuning.php

Bellow is an example of what they offer - http://dyno-comp.com/details.php?browse_make=Mercedes&model=68&type=80&browse_submit=GO unfortunately the headers and cats listed there are not what I can buy for my car, so I don't mind paying a bit more for a custom job and with prove of the hp gains.

Sounds promising. If this comes to pass, it will likely be the first time that we have definitive, dyno-proven HP gains on anything outside of NOS & the WOT LH-units !!