Opinions on the best turbo diesel to own

[Stevester 500E]

I am looking into buying a turbo diesel. I don't know too much about them.
I have heard to stay away from certain head types.
I am looking for something that is considered to be a bullet proof engine with a reputation for reliability. Here is my list of qualification in this particular order.

1. Horse Power and torque - I don't want a turtle diesel.
2. Dependability/good reputation.
3. Gas mileage.
4. Part availability.

I don't know if I am on the right path, I was looking into a 190d 2.5 turbo diesel. I am not sure they have the power.

If I get a 5 speed that would be great, but if not, I will mate a 5 speed to it.

Thanks in advance for your input.

 

[036]

1. Horse Power and torque - I don't want a turtle diesel.

So than no 124...
Why not 210? I don´t like their looks, rust is an issue, but what a great ride for very small money.... Parts are no question, not exp. at all, if car is in good shape it runs many thousand of km´s down.....
And 320 has power, no doubt.

http://suchen.mobile.de/auto/merced...FirstRegistrationDate=2003-12-31&fuels=DIESEL

 

[alabbasi]

87 300D is quite lively for an old diesel.

 

[gerryvz]

W210 with an OM606 motor, hands down.

 

[Stevester 500E]

alabbasi, It has to be the 87 300d correct? Is this one a turbo diesel?

 

[Stevester 500E]

>>W210 with an OM606 motor, hands down.
Is it feasible to transplant the w210 drive train into a w124 diesel?

 

[alabbasi]

Yes, the OM603 3 liter 6 cyl turbo was only available in 1987. FYI, you can get some serious hp out of these diesels. A kid that works for me every now and then has a 300CD with an OM617 turbo. He tweaked his injection pump and did some other stuff that made his car really go. On the trip to the Centerville meet, he easily kept up with me in my 500SL and my buddy in his 560SEC.

 

[Stevester 500E]

I would get the OM606 if it was in a W124 chassis, still will strongly consider this vehicle.
The OM603.3 is also an option for me. It will be a toss up - depends on the deal I can get on one of these, kind hard to compare apples and oranges.

 

[Allgonquin]

It could certainly be done, but unless you like swaps like this, you might as well buy a 210. 1995 was the first diesel back in the lineup, after a break of several years. 124 body. No turbo. Then came the 210 which had the non turbo 606 for 2 more years. First turbo 606 was 1998. Then 1999. More electronic controls on the turbos. Both can be found for relatively small money these days. The 95 diesel is actually increasing in price these days. Clean low mile cars are few and far between and sell for more than 210's. The 606 is a good engine. Actually great IMHO, although I can't speak for the turbo version. I've had mine for 10 years, buying it for $8K in 2004 with 140K on it, and I now have 425K with original trans and original timing chain. I still run it up to 5K RPM about once a week. The car is not fast, but it is fast enough, and an excellent commuter for my 110 mile round trip every day. I track every single tank for mileage, (90 liter tank shared with the 500E) and the fill-up on last Friday netted me 37 MPG. I posted about my personal record 858 mile tank on Peachparts in 2012.

That tank did not even start as a record attempt. I only started babying it at about 650 miles when I saw that it was exceptional. I started to go for a 900 mile tank a couple times this summer (max fuel mileage in the summer) but I can't stand driving a steady 60 when cars are warping by me at 70+. But I would like to go for a 900 mile tank.

But I digress. The most problematic part of that swap would be the controls, IMHO. But fit wise, I think it would be relatively easy.

 

[Stevester 500E]

I guess I could settle for driving a Camry-looking (w210) car as long as I get good gas mileage and decent power.

 

[gerryvz]

Yes, I was talking about the 1998 W210 turb'd 606. 600Eric has one of those, and it is a really great car. The mileage and power combination is unbelievable, and they drive great too.

 

[Klink]

All good info above, and I was resisting making any comment. But I am finally unable to resist my contrarian impulses, so here goes


Why?

Other than charm and novelty there is not the slightest reason to look in this direction. If it is charm and novelty then fine I'm good with it, and you should just ignore the rest of my comments.

Almost all of the cars that you could be considering are in short supply. Most are extremely high mileage and very used if not used up. There is a diesel cult out there and they have bid the prices on all of these cars well up above the prices of their gasoline "equivalents", and I use that term loosely because with the possible exception of the 210 turbodiesel, the gasoline versions of all of these subject cars provide a vastly superior driving experience. Don't fool yourself that there is any economy to be gained by using one of these as a DD even on a very high mileage commute. With the higher prices that these diesels sell for you would have to drive from here to Pluto to make up the difference in fuel economy, especially once you factor in the generally higher price of diesel fuel compared to even premium gasoline!

The fact that this conversation has extended all the way to consideration of the endlessly maligned (IMO) 210 model in this forum that tends to view anything newer than the 1995 model year as the devil's work brings this absurdity into extreme focus: For vastly less money then you are likely to need to to purchase a 210 diesel you can get a 210 with with a gasoline engine. The V6 210s approach the diesel fuel economy on the highway, and the 4.3 liter three valve V8s in turn approach the highway fuel economy of that V6! Both of these gasoline engines are easier to keep and less expensive to repair then those electronically governed diesels in the 210s. Not to mention each of the three valve engines deliver a superior chassis dynamic due to a lower weight in the front end. This is so very true of the V6 210s which combine some of that happy chassis front end feel of four-cylinder MB's (old-timers and those with euro version experience will know what I'm talking about here) combined with a torquey and responsive six-cylinder. Not to mention the gearing of the 210 V6 car that is somehow sublimely perfect.

The diesels have some charms and I am not immune to these charms, but the fuel prices and changes to vehicle design over the last 20 years have turned the diesel versus gas operating economy paradigm here in the US completely on its head. Don't think for a second that having one of these as a DD makes more economic sense then a gasoline engine MB. At least not any since the last 124 diesel was made, and as I said, good luck finding one of those that isn't either completely used up or in the extremely tight grip of its current owner. Usually they are actually both...

I haven't seen anybody mention them but if you veer in the S-class diesel direction, you need to be leery of the 3.5 L engines. Throughout almost their entire production run (were talking cars sold in the USA here) they were subject to bent connecting rods. It was not a question of if, it was only a question of when. It was so prevalent that I'd be surprised any were still running around with the affliction, but you never know. I would've expected them to either be repaired or to have completely destroyed themselves by now. It was not due to any external cause, it was simply that the rods for the longer stroke engine weren't strong enough for the increased loads. The replacement connecting rods were revised something like three or four times and the last couple of versions of them did not bend.
IIRC, the 94 and 95 model year 140s were not affected, all of the previous model year 3.5's were.

 

[quicksilver500]

To add to the 210 issues, you are going to break a glow plug off in the head. Its just going to happen, people never changed them, ever. So they get carbon fouled to the head. The change interval is to keep them from getting seized. They don't need to be replaced just removed, cleaned, lubed, and re installed. So plan on taking the head off to have the one or two you break off drilled out when one dies.

 

[Klink]

To add to the 210 issues, you are going to break a glow plug off in the head. Its just going to happen, people never changed them, ever. So they get carbon fouled to the head. The change interval is to keep them from getting seized. They don't need to be replaced just removed, cleaned, lubed, and re installed. So plan on taking the head off to have the one or two you break off drilled out when one dies.

same thing for the 95 model year 124 diesel, too..

 

[Bogeyman]

I guess I am qualified to comment on this as I currently own:
1987 300TDT with 160K - owned since '08
1998 E300 Turbo with 69K - owned since '07 (my DD)
2007 E320 Bluetec with 48K - owned since '08 (my wife's DD)
The comparatiive MPG figures are - 124 = 22 city 30 hwy….210 =24 city 32 hwy…211 =25 city 34 hwy
I love the 124. If I could get it to drive/handle like my 036 it would be ideal.
I like the 210. It has excellent power, is very dependable and a great DD but I always think I am in a Buick…..
I love the 211. It has been trouble free, very powerful, and great on long distance touring.
Mr Klink's comments are correct in a completely objective way, but if you love diesels (which I do), they don't tell the whole story.
I think you are either all-in for diesels or you don't get it at all.
In my case, I love the mechanical nature of them, they are extremely reliable and if you maintain them properly they will last you until you get really tired of driving them.

JMO

 

[gsxr]

+1 with most of the above. Additionally:

The 190D Turbo was available in 1987 only and is insanely rare. There is no such thing as a USA-spec 1990 190D Turbo.

Drive a W124 with 2.5T and see if you think it's a turtle. They are not fast, but compared to the 240D it's a rocket.

Forget the 5-speed manual trans upgrade unless your time is worthless and you have a complete 5-speed donor car in your backyard. Seriously.

All the USA-spec turbo cars have automatic transmissions. Every one. If you find a turbo 5-speed stick, someone converted it.

If you don't mind the lack of ability to increase power, the 1995 E300 (which has an OM606 non-turbo) is a darn nice car. The glow plug job isn't as bad as everyone claims but it CAN NOT be rushed.

If you can find one that isn't beat to heck, the 1987 300D is a fast diesel, but you'll also pay a premium for it, same as any W124 diesel.

I still don't like the W210 chassis but the 98-99 E300 is a decent alternative and they are getting cheaper.

To confirm what Klink already said, unless you are a major diesel-head, forget diesels entirely and just get a 93-95 400E/E420 as a daily driver. The perceived savings with diesel is mostly just that... perception, not reality. I swear, nobody ever does the math.

Parts availability is a non-issue with all W124/W210 diesels, not even sure why you were concerned about that???

 

[gerryvz]

I guess I am qualified to comment on this as I currently own:
1987 300TDT with 160K - owned since '08
1998 E300 Turbo with 69K - owned since '07 (my DD)
2007 E320 Bluetec with 48K - owned since '08 (my wife's DD)
The comparatiive MPG figures are - 124 = 22 city 30 hwy….210 =24 city 32 hwy…211 =25 city 34 hwy
I love the 124. If I could get it to drive/handle like my 036 it would be ideal.
I like the 210. It has excellent power, is very dependable and a great DD but I always think I am in a Buick…..
I love the 211. It has been trouble free, very powerful, and great on long distance touring.
Mr Klink's comments are correct in a completely objective way, but if you love diesels (which I do), they don't tell the whole story.
I think you are either all-in for diesels or you don't get it at all.
In my case, I love the mechanical nature of them, they are extremely reliable and if you maintain them properly they will last you until you get really tired of driving them.

JMO

That's some awesome commentary, thank you for sharing!

 

[texas993]

I have a 95 E300D. One of my favorite cars. Plenty of power, but fully loaded not a fast car.

Crazy reliable and comfortable. Only 108k miles. But feels like it has a million more in it.

 

[gsxr]

I have a 95 E300D. One of my favorite cars. Plenty of power, but fully loaded not a fast car.

Crazy reliable and comfortable. Only 108k miles. But feels like it has a million more in it.

Just FYI. The non-turbo engines have good power at lower elevations. If you live at higher elevations (2k-4k above sea level, or higher) there will be a noticeable drop in power. If you don't live in the mountains and/or don't often travel to high elevations, it's a non-issue. Otherwise... stick with a turbo, which will maintain normal power once boost builds (but, will still have less power off-idle compared to sea level).

I'd still get a 124.034 instead.

 

[texas993]

Interesting Dave. Definitely true of most of my cars when I go to Colorado. Except for my 911 Turbo.

One of these days the E300D will make its way out there. So I guess the 11k' passes will be a problem?! Ha!

 

[Klink]

Interesting Dave. Definitely true of most of my cars when I go to Colorado. Except for my 911 Turbo.

One of these days the E300D will make its way out there. So I guess the 11k' passes will be a problem?! Ha!

Oh they won't be a problem, they just may be a little slower than in your RUF!!

 

[Klink]

I just wanted to state for the record that I do fully "get" the diesel thing and I really enjoy driving most of them. I have only purchased three brand-new cars in my lifetime and two of those were diesels. The Klinkette and I have put hundreds of thousands of miles on them over the years. My comments were mostly to put diesel newcomers on notice that they are not an operating economy panacea! Especially not since the demise of the 124.

I especially liked Bogeyman's reference to their "mechanical nature". Indeed one of my favorite expressions that I've used for Mercedes in general and the diesels in particular is that they have a "relentlessly mechanical nature". I wish I could claim credit for that expression but I actually got it from Patrick Bedard writing in Car and Driver magazine sometime in the 70s. Despite the fact that he meant it as a putdown, I love the expression and thought it really captured the essence of these vehicles and I still do even now.

But do realize there is nothing truly mechanical in the nature of the MB diesel that we have had in the USA since 05, the later versions of these engines having vastly more electronic complexity than their gasoline engine contemporaries, and as a result now compare less favorably to their gasoline contemporaries for repair and maintenance expense. Yet, they still feel "relentlessly mechanical", and for that reason they really are a joy to drive, specially to some of us older folks.



In an ironic way this is another area in which the diesel versus gas paradigm has been turned on its head. The post '04 diesels with their magnificent torque characteristics are kind of the "drivers" choice! Even the new four-cylinder is a happy thrumming joy. But OMG people, from about '05 on these things are complicated! I mean you have no idea how much so...

 

[gerryvz]

I just wanted to state for the record that I do fully "get" the diesel thing

-10. I do not get the diesel thing.

I've driven a W123 240D for a few days, and test-driven a 1987 W124 300TD wagon (not bad, but not an M104 either). And I've driven BMW and Audi diesel models of current age the past couple of years while in Europe. Great power and mileage !!

That said ... don't think I could ever give up a large-displacement V-8 gas motor.

 

[Klink]

-10. I do not get the diesel thing.

I've driven a W123 240D for a few days, and test-driven a 1987 W124 300TD wagon (not bad, but not an M104 either). And I've driven BMW and Audi diesel models of current age the past couple of years while in Europe. Great power and mileage !!

That said ... don't think I could ever give up a large-displacement V-8 gas motor.

Well, "getting" something to me is the same as "understanding" it. Note that I'm not "recommending" it, and I didn't even recommend it to many people even when it made some economic sense. And that was a very long time ago.

 

[gerryvz]

The other thing is that chicks don't dig clattery, smelly, rattly old MB diesels, particularly those found in W114 models, 123s, 116s, 126s and early 124s. Heck, even today having "BLUETEC" on the right side of your deck lid -- as opposed to "AMG" -- is not going to help your position with the ladies.

 

[Klink]

The other thing is that chicks don't dig clattery, smelly, rattly old MB diesels, particularly those found in W114 models, 123s, 116s, 126s and early 124s. Heck, even today having "BLUETEC" on the right side of your deck lid -- as opposed to "AMG" -- is not going to help your position with the ladies.

I don't know, Honch. One of these "modern" collage grad girls? You could say that you were helping "save Mother Earth for The Children". She'd be putty in your wanton hands. And if you read that authoritatively from a teleprompter, she'd vote for you too!

 

[gerryvz]

Maybe like that guitar-playing girl that was posted the other day?

Naah, too young.

 

[Klink]

Maybe like that guitar-playing girl that was posted the other day?

Naah, too young.

Well, she was playing "Highway to Hell" and not "Don't Frack my Mother". She may like the AMG just fine!

 

[Maui]

I've heard many people describe Bluetec as "horse piss. Not something I would like to haul around.

 

[alabbasi]

The other thing is that chicks don't dig clattery, smelly, rattly old MB diesels,

No kidding. I tried the diesel thing once with an old W115 300D, it was miserably slow and i only got 21 mpg from it as my foot was always buried in it. I ended up getting rid of it when I got my E420 back. The E420 got me 21mpg all day and all night and was a delight to drive. I believe that a W210 E320 would get up to 28-30mpg on the highway which is not bad. Even my E55 got an average of 24 mpg on a trip to Austin and back last week. Given the cost difference between diesel and unleaded, an E320 may be a good option.

Every W210 E300D that I've seen for ~5k has 200k+ miles on it. I imagine that you can find a W210 E320 gasser with less then half the miles for that price.

I do wish that some of the European diesels were available in the US, Peugeot's new 308 diesel now gets 90+ MPG average and I'd rather have one to a hybrid anyday.

 

[Klink]

No kidding. I tried the diesel thing once with an old W115 300D, it was miserably slow and i only got 21 mpg from it as my foot was always buried in it. I ended up getting rid of it when I got my E420 back. The E420 got me 21mpg all day and all night and was a delight to drive. I believe that a W210 E320 would get up to 28-30mpg on the highway which is not bad. My E55 got an average of 24 mpg on a trip to Austin and back last week. Given the cost difference between diesel and unleaded, an E320 may be a good option.

Our 210 320 wagon gets right in that 28-30 range on the highway (usually as fast as traffic permits), and averages 22-23 in daily use. So does any other one in decent repair. The naturally aspirated 112/113 engines are exceptionally easy on gas.

 

[Klink]

I've heard many people describe Bluetec as "horse piss. Not something I would like to haul around.

Gives a whole new meaning to the British expression "taking the piss", doesn't it? What say you, Bing?

 

[gerryvz]

My former W124 wagon (M104) would get 20-22 around town, and 24 and maybe even 25 MPG on the highway. Not much better than an E420, really. The G-wagen gets 12-13 MPG around town.

 

[alabbasi]

I've heard many people describe Bluetec as "horse piss. Not something I would like to haul around.

It's Urea so not far off

The G-wagen gets 12-13 MPG around town.

Yeah but you're high rollin now Gerry

 

[gerryvz]

Yeah but you're high rollin now Gerry

Correction ... my wife is high rollin. But it's hard to roll high in a six-banger. A G really deserves an M113 or better.....M103 and M104 G's are just ... well ... adequate.

 

[Klink]

The G-wagen gets 12-13 MPG around town.

How very (oil) sheik!

 

[gerryvz]

How very (oil) sheik!

What can I say, we refine most of y'all's gas down here along the Gulf Coast.

 

[Klink]

Correction ... my wife is high rollin. But it's hard to roll high in a six-banger. A G really deserves an M113 or better.....M103 and M104 G's are just ... well ... adequate.

Or the luscious V8 turbodiesel that they got on the continent, Holy torque monster Batman!

 

[gerryvz]

The other thing is that chicks don't dig clattery, smelly, rattly old MB diesels, particularly those found in W114 models, 123s, 116s, 126s and early 124s.

OK, in the interest of transparency and honesty, I have to let people know that I was sharply and soundly CORRECTED by an individual on this forum via PM. He insisted that 123 diesel guys get TONS of poon, and sent me some photos to prove it....

I guess one can't lie when photographic evidence is presented, so I will say that I stand [partially] corrected on this matter.

 

[Maui]

I owned a 240D for a little while. Damn thing took half an hour to get across and intersection from a dead stop. It looked exactly like the one above this post minus the hot babes.

 

[Klink]

OK, in the interest of transparency and honesty, I have to let people know that I was sharply and soundly CORRECTED by an individual on this forum via PM. He insisted that 123 diesel guys get TONS of poon, and sent me some photos to prove it....

I guess one can't lie when photographic evidence is presented, so I will say that I stand [partially] corrected on this matter.

LOL, I just saw that stuff from Roy Spencer's site in my e-mail too. But it got me thinking. If those were new cars, those ladies would have to be pretty high mileage themselves by now...

 

[036]

Ähmmm....... engine swap? Idea is cool, but a lot of work... If i would swap- i´d take 124 coupe and put chevy small block in. Primitively simple, durable, a lot of power, nice sound. And i would drive it on LPG
Cheaper and better fun than ANY diesel.

 

[8899]

A nice example of a 300D. Featured this morning on BAT:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/191275106615

 

[Klink]

A nice example of a 300D. Featured this morning on BAT:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/191275106615

From what I can make out via the photos it looks really sound. I would think they have a really firm grip on it at that price but you just never know. I would love to have it just for the sheer novelty value. Don't be into big of a hurry wherever you're going, it does have all of somewhere between 77 and 83hp depending on the version...

 

[jnes]

OM606 is THE engine. In Finland it's quite common to swap these engines in front of the w124 or w201 and add modify injection pump, add large intercooler and big turbo. Then you have a car with ~400hp with more than 500nm of torque depending the boost pressure. These modified cars are called super turbos in Finland. You can find videos from these cars in youtube.

Here is one swap example for sale in Finland http://www.nettiauto.com/mercedes-benz/300/6561985
Specs for this car is:

- 540hp/760Nm
- OM606
- head completely redone
- holset hx52
- injection pump with 7mm^2 taps from Mynädiesel

 

[KarlC]

OM606 is THE engine. In Finland it's quite common to swap these engines in front of the w124 or w201 and add modify injection pump, add large intercooler and big turbo. Then you have a car with ~400hp with more than 500nm of torque depending the boost pressure. These modified cars are called super turbos in Finland. You can find videos from these cars in youtube.

Here is one swap example for sale in Finland http://www.nettiauto.com/mercedes-benz/300/6561985
Specs for this car is:

- 540hp/760Nm
- OM606
- head completely redone
- holset hx52
- injection pump with 7mm^2 taps from Mynädiesel

500HP W124 coupe, wow that would shock many newer cars, nice !!!

 

[alabbasi]

If you haven't seen the videos on youtube, they're quite entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gVUwDJ1QyY

 

[gsxr]

Gerry and alabbasi both mentioned not liking diesels, after driving W115/W123 Mercedes diesels. Seriously? I mean, sheesh, c'mon guys... that is like driving a 260E and then saying all 124's suck. Gerry, yes I see you drove a 1987 300TD but unless it was either new or stopwatch-confirmed to have normal power, it may not have been a valid test drive. I've driven plenty of OM603-powered cars that were slugs (like, 240D power levels) because the owners didn't know better and never got them fixed.

When running PROPERLY... the OM603 turbo 124's are almost snappier than a 400E off the line (partly due to the gearing differences). Yeah, they don't pull as hard up top, but around town... the mountain of torque makes them GREAT daily drivers. My recommendation to get the 034 instead is largely based on price & availability... tons of 034's around for cheap, you'll pay twice as much for the .133 and likely never find one that is in pristine condition. If I could get a 94-95 .133/.193 (never imported to USA, those were Europe-only models/years)... I'd be all OVER 'em.

Disclaimer: My daily driver is a 1987 300D with full Sportline kit including suspension, steering box, interior, shift knob, "stage 2" sway bars, and 500E brakes. It has 328kmi and has been tweaked slightly. Just got 29.2 MPG average on a 1500 mile round trip to CA.

 

[alabbasi]

Gerry and alabbasi both mentioned not liking diesels, after driving W115/W123

I've also driven an 87 300D, nice car and stated that they are quite lively.

When running PROPERLY... the OM603 turbo 124's are almost snappier than a 400E off the line (partly due to the gearing differences

So's a London Taxi but I won't be driving that either Seriously I dig diesels and if I still lived in England, I'd probably own one. In the US, I don't feel that it's that necessary. The fact is that fuel is still very affordable and we here are privileged to be able to own some very cool cars as daily drivers , which our friends in Europe struggle to afford, and this why most of my cars are V8's.

If I was to buy a diesel, I would like a small motor that's capable of some really high miles like the Peugeot 308 I mentioned earlier in this thread. That would be worth putting up with the clatter

 

[Klink]

Gerry and alabbasi both mentioned not liking diesels, after driving W115/W123 Mercedes diesels. Seriously? I mean, sheesh, c'mon guys... that is like driving a 260E and then saying all 124's suck. Gerry, yes I see you drove a 1987 300TD but unless it was either new or stopwatch-confirmed to have normal power, it may not have been a valid test drive. I've driven plenty of OM603-powered cars that were slugs (like, 240D power levels) because the owners didn't know better and never got them fixed.

When running PROPERLY... the OM603 turbo 124's are almost snappier than a 400E off the line (partly due to the gearing differences). Yeah, they don't pull as hard up top, but around town... the mountain of torque makes them GREAT daily drivers. My recommendation to get the 034 instead is largely based on price & availability... tons of 034's around for cheap, you'll pay twice as much for the .133 and likely never find one that is in pristine condition. If I could get a 94-95 .133/.193 (never imported to USA, those were Europe-only models/years)... I'd be all OVER 'em.

Disclaimer: My daily driver is a 1987 300D with full Sportline kit including suspension, steering box, interior, shift knob, "stage 2" sway bars, and 500E brakes. It has 328kmi and has been tweaked slightly. Just got 29.2 MPG average on a 1500 mile round trip to CA.

So true that, gixxer about so many of these being in poor repair! Lots of the ones I drive these days don't even have any boost pressure making their way over to the pump android. When I mention "we should be able to fix this low-power condition without too much extra expense" they say "what low-power condition". And there isn't but maybe one tech out of 50 anywhere, dealer or independent that knows what they should feel like! If you demonstrate the before and after difference they always express amazement and say something like "wow I just always thought it was an old diesel and they are all just slow!"

But sometimes no good deed goes unpunished. Had a guy come in once with a 140 turbodiesel. None of the pneumatic engine management was working correctly, it couldn't pull a greasy string out of a dog's ass. I sold him on a repair and we repaired it. I rode with him when he picked it up and he was thrilled. He brought it back a week later absolutely furious because now it was using "way more fuel than it used to"...