Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACCUME LEAKS!!

[Ascension]

Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

Guys I honestly almost walked away from this car as I have never been in a M119 powered car so thought mine was "normal".
Been storming all day here but tonight when it stopped I started poking around under the hood with a good flash light getting ready for some work on her tomorrow. While looking at the throttle cable routing up by the cowl I found a disconnected hard vacuum line that runs to a trident shaped yellow tree just behind the brake master cylinder . So I start looking a little closer and find several vacuum lines that were only partially connected . I then go over everything that I can easily see wash up and take a drive. INSTANT the car fires it sounds different the very slight lope at idle is gone and it just sounds suddenly MUCH sharper. Take a drive and the throttle response is light years better dead spots are gone and it kicks down in normal driving like it should .
Now to get the plugs in tomorrow and make a list to order a few things like the new throttle cable to get this thing right.
MUCH better driving car now and some weird whistling noises ( weird sounds that I never would of pinned as just a vacuum leak!!)that I though were just normal are now all gone!
Been spinning wrenches for many years on stuff but till just now totally missed what was going on with this one and why it was so sluggish to respond!
Anybody got an under-hood vacuum diagram for the 420 as I think I got everything but want to really look hard at it.

 

[jhodg5ck]

Any 117/119 that runs like crap gets a vac leak visual inspection..if still suspect my smoke machine is one of the best $1200 tools I've ever bought!

Yes, plugs... If your O2 is old I'd do it too... I bet oil is crappy now after all that unmetered air making it's way it/LH trying to cover for it based off the O2 readings...

jono

 

[Glen]

Congrats on finding the problem. Hopefully, now you can enjoy what a great engine the M119 is!

 

[Maui]

Save yourself a boat load of money and use a cheap cigar to find vacuum leaks. Just run a tube to one of the intake vacuum lines and blow cigar smoke into it. You'll find your vacuum leak immediately.

 

[Stevester 500E]

Thanks for the update Ascension.
Glad you didn't give up.
Mercedes gremlins are sometimes difficult to track down.

Reminds me, one day I may have to replace all the engine rubber, probably when I find and upgraded ETA I will get motivated.

 

[Ascension]

Thanks for the update Ascension.
Glad you didn't give up.
Mercedes gremlins are sometimes difficult to track down.

Reminds me, one day I may have to replace all the engine rubber, probably when I find and upgraded ETA I will get motivated.

Difficult to track in particular when you are like me and have NO experience with these cars at all. I never suspected vacuum leaks as a problem here because i never heard that tell tail hiss + the whooshing electric motor like sounds I had no idea were not normal in around town driving.
BTW what the heck was this that the 1st line I found was completely disconnected from?

The clear plastic hard line from the left was completely disconnected from the trident shaped rubber connection that feeds into the yellow pieces here and just laying in the area. What is is?

 

[samiam44]

Check valves. I would replace the 4 way piece. Everything on these cars is vacuum. It gave softer operation than solenoid valves.
Congrats!! I never remember mentioning flat spots in throttle response. Sluggish is normal due to gearing. You can make it a rocket still.


M

 

[Ascension]

Re: Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

Check valves. I would replace the 4 way piece. Everything on these cars is vacuum. It gave softer operation than solenoid valves.
Congrats!! I never remember mentioning flat spots in throttle response. Sluggish is normal due to gearing. You can make it a rocket still.


M

The 4 way seems fine it's not cracked and pliable the line had been physically pulled out. They had the car serviced at a particular quick oil change for several years and those monkeys were quite ham fisted on things. The coffee black gunk in the dramatically overfilled PS reservoir was another issue I have found. Replaced the filter and refilled with Royal Purple synthetic a few days ago.

 

[Ascension]

just took her out for a little freeway cruse then came back on some back roads and it's getting better quickly.
Wonder should I pull the battery let it all reset and clear after I get the new plugs in tomorrow or just let it "learn" the new conditions?

 

[clarkz71]

Re: Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

Where did you get the plugs?

How much with shipping?

 

[Klink]

just took her out for a little freeway cruse then came back on some back roads and it's getting better quickly.
Wonder should I pull the battery let it all reset and clear after I get the new plugs in tomorrow or just let it "learn" the new conditions?

I'm glad things are working out for the better. The more I heard your complaints the more I was convinced that your car was simply broken and /or misadjusted.

Disconnecting the battery won't change anything regarding the engine running condition or adaptation. There is a lot of folklore circulating about this process, and on your car it is precisely that, folklore.

 

[bing]

And you were getting all grumpy about this car, ready to throw in the towel and how Benzes suck....Volvo this , Volvo that ,, jeez!

Eric and Klink were right on the money when they suggested that maybe you should drive another one and allow someone with experience on these cars to have a look and point things out . ( somewhere along this line IIRC)

Glad you're sounding a lot more positive now though .

 

[Roma_500E]

If I were you I would replace ALL (I mean every single vacuum line) vacuum lines AND connectors under the hood.

This is actually what I did on my car cuz vacuum leaks/broken lines pissed me off one day.

New connectors and fresh lines look nice and fresh + proper performance of the engine.

 

[Ascension]

Re: Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

Where did you get the plugs?

How much with shipping?

FCP, they are the Russians and were under $16, I picked them up as part of another order for both cars ( V-90 and 420) so no ship.

 

[Ascension]

Re: Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

And you were getting all grumpy about this car, ready to throw in the towel and how Benzes suck....Volvo this , Volvo that ,, jeez!

Klink was right on the money when he suggested that you should get someone with experience on these cars to have a look and point things out . ( somewhere along this line IIRC)

Glad you're sounding a lot more positive now though .

I'm a lot more positive because the car is suddenly a lot more drivable. Before no joke it was a dog in normal around town driving mostly because it was not kicking down like it should at part throttle. It also was why the car was such an absolute bear in the wet as it would slug around till it got enough throttle cable to kick down then suddenly hit and get loose. No joke I nearly bent it more than once because of that. Once you got it up to say 50 or so and above or just hammered it it felt ok.
Keep in mind that the only Mercedes I had driven very much was an 02 E320 before the 420 and before that were mostly older stuff back in the 70's that were all super sluggish dogs around town with the autos so I thought this was normal.
Now it responds like it should and is quite drivable (about = to the Volvo in normal driving throttle response around town). The Volvo with that killer suspension this particular car has ( the Volvo is MUCH more sophisticated here in every way than the old school Merc is) still is much sharper on the handling but the 420 rides a LOT better and will absolutely bulldoze it in a straight line at WOT. I feel a LOT better about the 034 now and had no idea it was so "off" till I found this.

What bit me on the vacuum leaks was that they were all not in the actual engine compartment but in the area past the heat shield in front of the windshield. Never saw them until I started looking at the routing of the throttle cable to replace it and couldn't hear them because they were down behind that heat shield. Only line that was all the way disconnected was the one I pictured but found several that were pulled somewhat loose but not all the way out. All the rubber connectors here are fine as they never got that much heat are soft and not cracked. Some monkey was ham-fisted working in the area for some reason and physically pulled a bunch of stuff loose. Got everything hooked up as it should be and it instantly changed everything.

 

[clarkz71]

Re: Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

FCP, they are the Russians and were under $16, I picked them up as part of another order for both cars ( V-90 and 420) so no ship.

I don't know, supporting the USSR 2.0 and the ex KGB leader..............

 

[Klink]

Re: Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

I don't know, supporting the USSR 2.0 and the ex KGB leader..............

I'd put a chainyank on it if I hadn't seen this on the TV myself !

 

[Ascension]

Re: Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

I don't know, supporting the USSR 2.0 and the ex KGB leader..............

Had an order already coming bro and grabbing that set at under $16 with no shipping was a no-brainer this time. Catch you on the next pass LOL!

 

[Klink]

Re: Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

Had an order already coming bro and grabbing that set at under $16 with no shipping was a no-brainer this time. Catch you on the next pass LOL!

Yeah, yeah! Tell that to the Ukranians!

 

[Ascension]

Re: Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

Yeah, yeah! Tell that to the Ukranians!

Not really crazy with supporting Germany or China ether so---.
(Do keep in mind what I do http://www.conservativepartyal.org/ so )
This is from us http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/index.php

 

[clarkz71]

Re: Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

Not really crazy with supporting Germany or China ether so---.

Then you better sell that E420, and your computer/smart phone and big screen TV

 

[Klink]

Hey, Richard! Are you sure that you didn't violate any economic sanctions with that spark plug purchase? Get ready for the IRS audit...

 

[clarkz71]

Hey, Richard! Are you sure that you didn't violate any economic sanctions with that spark plug purchase? Get ready for the IRS audit...

Right, like having cigars from Havana.

Viva Fidel.............

 

[Klink]

Right, like having cigars from Havana.

Viva Fidel.............

Maui Ken says those are the very best for finding vacuum leaks!

 

[clarkz71]

Nah, I think he's burning Dominicans.........

 

[Ascension]

Hey, Richard! Are you sure that you didn't violate any economic sanctions with that spark plug purchase? Get ready for the IRS audit...

Don't even go there man!!
You have no idea what I'm involved in and considering who is in command of both the IRS and DOJ right now yep I do look over my shoulder at times LOL!
Couple teasers.

 

[Ascension]

Back on topic here guys.
I think my 420 may be becoming the poster child for why those who don't have a CLUE on these cars at these quick oil places don't need to be trusted in maintaining them!!
Today I spent some time detailing under the hood just poking around looking close and finding a lot of little things screwed up like a couple catches missing on the back of the Air cleaner assembly and such.
Have a cart full set up from FCP tonight of mostly little stuff like that throttle cable ( many were in the close out sale BTW) that I will order next week.

 

[jhodg5ck]

quick oil places?

That's the most sure fire way to kill a Benz...the Crap I see coming from quickie lubes here @ the shop never ceases to amaze!

jono

 

[gerryvz]

Kent sez....NEVER use a Qwik-E-Mart Lube

[youtube]tqDPJvUlC-s[/youtube]

[youtube]rtKdJB8VNWM[/youtube]

 

[Maui]

Right, like having cigars from Havana.

Viva Fidel.............

Maui Ken says those are the very best for finding vacuum leaks!

If I have learned anything here....you have to use the correct tools.

 

[Klink]

Don't even go there man!!
You have no idea what I'm involved in and considering who is in command of both the IRS and DOJ right now yep I do look over my shoulder at times LOL!
Couple teasers.

Nice to see you there with the Hermanator! Atlanta's finest!

 

[Klink]

Re: Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

Had an order already coming bro and grabbing that set at under $16 with no shipping was a no-brainer this time. Catch you on the next pass LOL!

After you put those Ruskie plugs in there your car is going to go "PUT(in) PUT(in) PUT(in)"

 

[Ascension]

Nice to see you there with the Hermanator! Atlanta's finest!

One of them here is another guy who last time I talked to him is now living in your general area. You know this one?

 

[400Eric]

Re: Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

Klink was right on the money when he suggested that you should get someone with experience on these cars to have a look and point things out . ( somewhere along this line IIRC)

Klink is a GREAT guy, no doubt about it, but I am the one who made the initial suggestion that something might be amiss: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278&page=2&p=80766#post80766

 

[Ascension]

View attachment 33031


Kent sez....NEVER use a Qwik-E-Mart Lube

[youtube]tqDPJvUlC-s[/youtube]

[youtube]rtKdJB8VNWM[/youtube]

Saw those. Sad thing is I used to work for the quick oil chain that was servicing my 420 at a different location. If that had taken it to that one it would have likely been fine.
Wonder if this is partly why they traded it in? Car after driving it as it was then finding and fixing the vacuum leaks was really WAY off. Amazingly so in fact and now I'm taking a hard look at all the under hood vacuum connections. Never would have thought a couple simple loose vacuum lines would screw anything up as badly as it did this one. It wasn't just the shifting it was everything from the climate control to the door locks that was affected just WOW!

 

[Ascension]

Re: Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

Klink is a GREAT guy, no doubt about it, but I am the one who made the initial suggestion that something might be amiss: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278&page=2&p=80766#post80766

Several here did in the end Eric but we didn't know what. I never suspected a simple vacuum leak as being why the car was so sluggish as it didn't act like any vacuum leak I had seem before. Only real tip was a slight intermittent shudder at idle that I suspected was ignition related the way it acted and those electric motor like light whirring sounds that had always been there since the 1st time I ever drove the car. Just thought they were normal.

 

[400Eric]

Re: Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

Several here did in the end Eric but we didn't know what.

A little credit would be nice here since I am THE FIRST ONE WHO BROUGHT UP THE POSSIBILITY THAT SOMETHING MIGHT BE WRONG WITH THE CAR.
I really feel underappreciated sometimes.

I never suspected a simple vacuum leak as being why the car was so sluggish as it didn't act like any vacuum leak I had seem before. Only real tip was a slight intermittent shudder at idle that I suspected was ignition related the way it acted and those electric motor like light whirring sounds that had always been there since the 1st time I ever drove the car. Just thought they were normal.

Difficult to track in particular when you are like me and have NO experience with these cars at all. I never suspected vacuum leaks as a problem here because i never heard that tell tail hiss + the whooshing electric motor like sounds I had no idea were not normal in around town driving.
BTW what the heck was this that the 1st line I found was completely disconnected from?

The clear plastic hard line from the left was completely disconnected from the trident shaped rubber connection that feeds into the yellow pieces here and just laying in the area. What is is?

This is ironically the area where your little thingy is that is causing your cat heating first gear hold mode. (There is also a relay in the relay box.) You will be re-visiting this area again real soon as soon as I can remember which vacuum line to plug so you can ditch that feature. (Maybe Gixxer knows off of the top of his head which line to plug?)

I would also check all of the vacuum lines on the engine. On both of my 036s the lines were all destroyed from the high heat. Ironically, my older M103 car's lines are all still fine, with the 88 and 89 just now showing signs of aging.

Regards,
Eric

 

[Ascension]

Re: Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

A little credit would be nice here since I am THE FIRST ONE WHO BROUGHT UP THE POSSIBILITY THAT SOMETHING MIGHT BE WRONG WITH THE CAR.
I really feel underappreciated sometimes.





This is ironically the area where your little thingy is that is causing your cat heating first gear hold mode. (There is also a relay in the relay box.) You will be re-visiting this area again real soon as soon as I can remember which vacuum line to plug so you can ditch that feature. (Maybe Gixxer knows off of the top of his head which line to plug?)

I would also check all of the vacuum lines on the engine. On both of my 036s the lines were all destroyed from the high heat. Ironically, my older M103 car's lines are all still fine, with the 88 and 89 just now showing signs of aging.

Regards,
Eric

LOL suck it up bro I was listening but had no idea what to look for as nothing was telling me that I had a vacuum leak!
Will be revisiting that area soon as the throttle cable is toast ( plastic adjuster is broken ) so will be replacing it. That's how I found the problem I was looking at the cable routing to the firewall.

 

[Klink]

Re: Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

Klink is a GREAT guy, no doubt about it, but I am the one who made the initial suggestion that something might be amiss: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278&page=2&p=80766#post80766

Well, at least I gave you credit Eric! I'm sure most others here appreciate your comments as well.

 

[400Eric]

Like I said, Klink is a GREAT guy!

I miss the avitar girl though.

 

[clarkz71]

Re: Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

ironically the area where your little thingy is that is causing your cat heating first gear hold mode. (There is also a relay in the relay box.) You will be re-visiting this area again real soon as soon as I can remember which vacuum line to plug so you can ditch that feature. (Maybe Gixxer knows off of the top of his head which line to plug?)

. Regards,
Eric

The "thingy" is the first gear delay electric switch over valve.

The LH module powers it on cold start, giving vacuum to
the transmission control pressure cable vacuum box

That slightly pulls up on the cable, just as the throttle does
causing a delay in shifting from 1st to 2nd

There are 2 vacuum lines to the transmission on the E420
The modulator, direct from the intale manifold (white), and the line (black)
from the switch over valve which is right by those yellow one way valves
in your image above.

You disconnect the black line to the trans and plug the electric valve

Don't pull the relay, it will cause a check engine light.

 

[gsxr]

There is no way to permanently disable the cold upshift delay without causing an occasional CEL. If you plug the vac lines, you will repeatedly get the CEL after a number of restarts... clear it, the code will return.

You can use a modified EPROM chip and this will fix it about 99.44% of the time, but even with the chip mod, once every few years it may still trigger the CEL. That's a better solution if you really want to lose the cold upshift delay. Bummer the eBay chip being hawked for the 034 is really a 500E chip. (Cue Eric's rant...)

 

[clarkz71]

There is no way to permanently disable the cold upshift delay without causing an occasional CEL. If you plug the vac lines, you will repeatedly get the CEL after a number of restarts... clear it, the code will return.

I don't know about that Dave.

My 94 E420 never set a check engine light when I disconnected
the line to the transmission.

I left the vacuum source connected as well as the electric portion
Relay in place and switch over valve connected.

Only the vacuum to the trans disconnected and left open/vented and electric valve plugged.

I would try my method on yours and see if the result is the same as mine

That's the only E420 I tried it on so maybe it was a fluke?

 

[400Eric]

Re: Just found my gremlin on the E-420 VACUUM LEAKS!!

Don't pull the relay, it will cause a check engine light.

Clark is abslutely correct here. I only mentioned the relay because I didn't want to give the impression that the vacuum thingy is the only thing at play in this first gear delay business.

 

[clarkz71]

If you plug the vac lines, you will repeatedly get the CEL after a number of restarts... clear it, the code will return.

That "MAY" be your problem, leave the vacuum connected to the switch over valve

 

[gsxr]

That "MAY" be your problem, leave the vacuum connected to the switch over valve

Gerry did some testing on this and he was correct... the DM monitors the upshift RPM's when cold. There's an old thread somewhere on the forum where you can read all about him skooling me.

 

[400Eric]

Bummer the eBay chip being hawked for the 034 is really a 500E chip. (Cue Eric's rant...)

Why would I rant about that? I bought my chip from a guy who had bought it for and was using it on his 500E. I never had any illusions about what it was/is.

It really doesn't matter what it's application is anyways. The thing didn't gain either one of us any power.

 

[clarkz71]

Gerry did some testing on this and he was correct... the DM monitors the upshift RPM's when cold. There's an old thread somewhere on the forum where you can read all about him skooling me.

I guess I was lucky, 3 years and no check engine light

And it did work, because before I bought my 92 LH module, I was getting that code 19
from the adaptation going to far one way.

MB had a service bulletin about that and that's why the 016 module superseded to the 021

And that KRF6 guy sells a chip to update a 016 to a 021 module

Almost forgot, I have my 93 set up that way and I have never seen a code for the FGS system
and I'm in there all the time with my MT2500 (because the 93 has no CEL)

That 2 cars with no affect disconnecting the vacuum line AT the electric valve

So you could say "I" have conducted testing myself, with good results..

 

[gsxr]

LOL. I know you still like the chip, Eric! I'm just irritated that it has 5.0L fuel mapping and is being sold as a 4.2L chip. The only other 4.2L performance chip that I've found is copy-protected via piggyback circuit board so I can't get the code off it and see what the mods were.

 

[gsxr]

And that KRF6 guy sells a chip to update a 016 to a 021 module

He does? Is there any claimed advantage besides the increased adaptation range? I thought that was hardware related, not software...