400E vs 500E -- the real differences!

[gsxr]

Re: 400E vs 500E, the real differences.

I may have missed the post but was it mentioned that the 036 has a stronger front cross member/radiator support? All of the rest of the W124s have a very weak pathetic one, but the 500E's is fairly substantial. It's probably the main thing that I am envious of when comparing the two. Everything else can be added if desired. Myself, all I want is the 5.0 M119, the sway bars, the springs, the later brakes, those cool struts with the extra spring inside (are those still available?), the front control arm brace, and that radiator support. You all can have the rest.

I like that I can fit three kids in the back of all of my W124s.

The radiator support was indeed mentioned yesterday, but in a different thread (the Shatner wreck thread). I agree about this, because the standard 124 support loves to kiss parking curbs, bend inward, and cause all kinds of problems (worst case, it shoves the fan into the radiator, $$$$). If you hit anything that bent the 500E support, you also just destroyed your bumper, lol. I'm hoping the 500E support (which is claimed to be NLA) can be retrofitted to a standard 124, as I have a spare, and I'd like to weld it on my 300D to allow room for a front intercooler.

Eric, the cool struts are still available, but only from MB, and you won't like the price nor the 1-year warranty. Just get Bilstein Sports or KONI which are cheaper and have lifetime warranty. Remember that the later brakes will force you to run large, expensive 16" wheels & tires, and no, the flyweight forged 16's won't clear the bigger brakes without spacers. Oh, and you can swap in a standard rear seat bottom & third seat belt, to create a 5-seat 500E, if desired. That's pretty straightforward if you need to haul 3 kids in your 036.

 

[400Eric]

Re: 400E vs 500E, the real differences.

The radiator support was indeed mentioned yesterday, but in a different thread (the Shatner wreck thread). I agree about this, because the standard 124 support loves to kiss parking curbs, bend inward, and cause all kinds of problems (worst case, it shoves the fan into the radiator, $$$$). If you hit anything that bent the 500E support, you also just destroyed your bumper, lol. I'm hoping the 500E support (which is claimed to be NLA) can be retrofitted to a standard 124, as I have a spare, and I'd like to weld it on my 300D to allow room for a front intercooler.

Eric, the cool struts are still available, but only from MB, and you won't like the price nor the 1-year warranty. Just get Bilstein Sports or KONI which are cheaper and have lifetime warranty. Remember that the later brakes will force you to run large, expensive 16" wheels & tires, and no, the flyweight forged 16's won't clear the bigger brakes without spacers. Oh, and you can swap in a standard rear seat bottom & third seat belt, to create a 5-seat 500E, if desired. That's pretty straightforward if you need to haul 3 kids in your 036.

Benzer4 was suffering from that fan in the radiator syndrome when I bought him.

I scored some 17" aftermarket rims at the JY off of a 400E last spring. One would think that 17s would clear the bigger brakes, right?

 

[gsxr]

Re: 400E vs 500E, the real differences.

I scored some 17" aftermarket rims at the JY off of a 400E last spring. One would think that 17s would clear the bigger brakes, right?

Most 17" OE wheels will clear all front brakes up to 295mm diameter. Things get dicey when you bump up to 300mm or larger front brakes, there are a handful of 17" wheels which won't clear due to interference with the wheel spokes... spacers are required.

 

[400Eric]

Re: 400E vs 500E, the real differences.

Dave, I said 17" "aftermarket" rims. How well do most 17" aftermarket rims cope with the bigger brakes?

I'm really disappointed to hear that the flyweight forged 16's won't clear the bigger brakes without spacers.

Dave, back in April 2010, I started a thread about the rotten weak radiator supports on our W124s on peachparts (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum...4-owners-check-your-radiator-support-now.html) and on another site as well. I thought that second site was this one but it's not in my started threads section here. Anyways, you weighed in on that second thread and posted nice pics of both types of radiator supports. Up until that point, I didn't know there was a difference until you showed me! I wanted to link that thread here since this thread is about the differences between 034s and 036s. Do you remember where we had this conversation? I'm thinking since it was April 2010, it WASN'T on Scott's site.

 

[gsxr]

Re: 400E vs 500E, the real differences.

Ooops. My bad. I can't help with aftermarket rims... only way to find out is to try them, or find someone else who has tried the combo you are considering.

 

[Christian_K]

Re: 400E vs 500E, the real differences.

Just a side not regarding the struts with the extra cool little spring inside...
For my C140 Coupe, i ordered new Sachs "Super Touring" Struts lately and according to the manual, it has the integrated little spring. If i understood that manual correctly, that spring is for quicker pulling-back the rod after it has extracted itself.
Dunno how its the case if i would buy aftermarket 500E struts from Sachs.

 

[Taxi Driver]

Re: 400E vs 500E, the real differences.

Just a side not regarding the struts with the extra cool little spring inside...
For my C140 Coupe, i ordered new Sachs "Super Touring" Struts lately and according to the manual, it has the integrated little spring. If i understood that manual correctly, that spring is for quicker pulling-back the rod after it has extracted itself.
Dunno how its the case if i would buy aftermarket 500E struts from Sachs.

A wild guess! I doubt the aftermarket damper/strut does have the rebound spring acting as a complimentary force to control the inner front wheel.
The Zuganschlag feder as it is called in the 124 036 Service book, listing the 500E specifics over the 124 031 300E-24
this retracting spring you also find in the 400E strut ( the 400E420 sportline according to MB does have the 500E strut)

To my knowlege no sport/heavy duty damper does have this spring inside only the adjustable damping rate hydraulically in some cases. Roger

 

[Stevester 500E]

Re: 400E vs 500E, the real differences.

I would agree with Clark71 and Glen. This opinion comes from my test drives in a 400e, before buying my 500e. I had driven w124 coupes and sedans. I got the idea I wanted to transplant an M119 into a coupe, put 500e fenders and have my dream coupe.

So I test drove a prospective m119 donor, a 400e, with about 140k miles on the motor. When I hit the gas pedal on the 400e, it was more responsive than I imagined. However, I ended up buying a 500e.

Whether you dissect the difference via part number or the layman's pedal to the medal test, the 400e's delta isn't all that much, somewhere between 10-20%. Eyes closed and driving in a straight line it's a 10% difference. Driving around aggressively, a 13-15% difference. Driving aggressively and taking into account part numbers, 20%.

Now, if a 500e motor were transplanted into a w124 coupe, then you are taking 25-30% difference !!!!

 

[clarkz71]

Re: 400E vs 500E, the real differences.

That's a good observation.

I too drove both the 400e and my 500E while looking
for a V8 W124.

The 400E had very good acceleration for a 4.2 engine.
From what I've read, it's slowed down by the economy
rear axle ratio of 2.24 compared to my 500E's ratio of 2.82

That's why I chose the 500E, I didn't want the hassle
of replacing the gears/ or replace the entire rear axle
and have a non original car.

I like to keep my cars as original as possible.

 

[400Eric]

Re: 400E vs 500E, the real differences.

Dave, back in April 2010, I started a thread about the rotten weak radiator supports on our W124s on peachparts (http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum...4-owners-check-your-radiator-support-now.html) and on another site as well. I thought that second site was this one but it's not in my started threads section here. Anyways, you weighed in on that second thread and posted nice pics of both types of radiator supports. Up until that point, I didn't know there was a difference until you showed me! I wanted to link that thread here since this thread is about the differences between 034s and 036s. Do you remember where we had this conversation? I'm thinking since it was April 2010, it WASN'T on Scott's site.

 

[szvook]

Re: 400E vs 500E, the real differences.

This is funny to say the least - one is a E500E and the other one is not. You can slap on every part and the engine from the 036 and the 034 will still be an 034, just with fancy clothes. How about the widened track of the 036? If one was to do a transplant, wouldn't you want to go all the way, otherwise the 034 in all of the 036 dressing will still look like a vegetarian...

 

[400Eric]

Re: 400E vs 500E, the real differences.

I'm pretty sure the widened track is just from the different offset of the bigger wheels.

Dave, what thread are those pics of the radiator supports in?

 

[gsxr]

Re: 400E vs 500E, the real differences.

I'm pretty sure the widened track is just from the different offset of the bigger wheels.

Dave, what thread are those pics of the radiator supports in?

Eric, I vaguely recall the previous discussion, but I have no clue what thread it was. Some photos of the 500E support are on my site here, there are probably other views in my E500 "restoration" folder...

 

[DerFuror]

Re: 400E vs 500E, the real differences.

I'm pretty sure the widened track is just from the different offset of the bigger wheels.

The 500E is overall wider than the 400E (according to factory documentation on page 74 of the 1993 300-Class / 500E Showroom Sales Brochure) by 2.2 in/ 56mm.

The 500E tracks 1.5 in/ 37 mm wider than the 400E

Tires & wheels 225/55 ZR16 8x16 vs 195/65R15 91V 6.5X15

…and it is lower by 0.9 in/ 23mm.

I'll try to scan & post the page sometime later.

 

[400Eric]

Re: 400E vs 500E, the real differences.

Yes, the track is wider, and the wheel housings are flared to accommodate the wider track, which makes the car wider. But I still maintain that the wider track is simply the result of a different offset on the 036's wider wheels. The suspension mounting points aren't different, the main unibody structure isn't different, the control arms aren't longer, the spindles aren't different, etc, etc, so it MUST be the wheel's greater width combined with a different offset.

GSXR EDIT: I believe Eric is correct. It's not specifically the offset, but rather the wheel width and offset. Bumping from 6.5 to 8.0 wheels, and assuming similar offset, would create the 1.5 inch wider track (approx). The front suspenion, hubs, etc are all the same between 034 and 036. In the rear, the only difference is the 500E brake rotors have hubs/hats which are 2mm thicker, which would widen the track another 4mm total compared to the 034 chassis.

 

[DerFuror]

Re: 400E vs 500E, NO real differences.

OK. You get the checkered flag. :checker:Like the waves incessantly beating the granite cliffs down into a sandy beach…I also acquiesce.

Based on your compelling argument illuminating the mysterious “offset” difference & aside from the hand-built vs robot-built unibody..., if a set of 195/65R15 91V 6.5X15 wheels were slapped on, the 500E & 400E are physically the same car.

But do you ever consider trading in those five 3/400Es (that’s a lot of cars) for a 500E?

Be honest.

There’s absolutely nothing bad or wrong with the other siblings, but I’ve never had an inclination for anything W124ish besides a 500E. There’s just something about that ethereal 20% difference (whether real or perceived).

 

[400Eric]

Re: 400E vs 500E, the real differences.

Actually, the unibodies were ALL robot built. The 036s were hand assembled by Porsche AFTER Benz sent the bodies in white over to them.

I never said 034s and 036s are the same car.

About that swap, well, I've never actually given that idea any thought but if you are offering.........

I guess it depends on the condition of the 500E I suppose. If it is at least a solid 8 on a scale of 10, with either under 125,000 miles on it OR if the miles are higher, I'd want that it has already had the heavy lifting items already done. (Engine mounts, trans pump seal, timing chain and rails, etc.) I'd also want it to be an early 93 (pre-3/93), old enough that it still has a closed deck block and aluminum oil tubes, but new enough that it has the bigger 600SL brakes.

I'd slap some 2.24 gears in that puppy, add a first gear start (which 034s already have BTW) along with a 92 ECU and I'd have a decent car. It would be a week-end only car though. I'd have to press one of my other cars into daily driver duty, probably a Volvo. It would be quite a sacrifice on my part not having a W124 as a daily driver anymore, but I'm game.

 

[gerryvz]

Re: 400E vs 500E, the real differences.

OK folks, I'm getting about to my limit with this discussion.

What I've observed is a bit of insecurity, by certain members, about their .034 cars vs. the .036. Look, you can argue this until the cows come home, but nothing is going to change the fact that the .036 is the more desirable car to enthusiasts and collectors, for a number of reasons. They are both GREAT cars, and both are Benzes, and both are closely related. You can argue ad nauseum about how much percentage one is better than the other.

Ultimately, the market decides which is the better car. The market says that the MB 300SL Gullwing is one of the all-time ultimate cars, but if you've ever sat in one or driven one, they are a ROYAL PITA to get in and out of, and they are extremely hot and stuffy inside (ever wonder why a lot of Gullwings are driven at slow speeds with one door up?). You like drum brakes and a big ol' swing axle in the rear? But the market says that the Gullwing is worth more than the more refined, better 300SL Roadster.

In the case of the .034 and .036, the market places a HUGE premium on the .036, for many reasons. It always will. So .034 folks -- just get over it, and stop wasting your time and energy being all insecure and trying to justify why you own what you own. This is a 500E enthusiast site ... not a 400E enthusiast site ... and it is ONLY due to my good graces that you even have your own sub-forums here. Be happy that you even have your own seat at the table, and a forum to call your own.

Instead of arguing all the time, why don't you actually CONTRIBUTE some useful information and dialogue to the forum here, in the form of HOW-TO articles or technical information that you learn, instead of endlessly arguing about well-known things like track widths and nit-picking apart the minute differences between individual parts on the cars. It's a futile exercise, and it most certainly does NOT contribute to the collective knowledge on these cars. If you notice, none of the folks who are pushing this .034 argument have EVER contributed a single WHIT of useful HOW-TO maintenance or repair information to the forum. They take, take, take, take and never give anything useful in return.

If your insecurity about the .034 is so great, why don't you go over to Benzworld and have the discussion there, where the 300E and E320 owners can also participate. You can exercise your V-8 superiority to them over on that venue. But I am at the end of my rope with this here, and I'm not going to let this pointless tail-chasing exercise go on and on and on.

Thanks for your understanding.
Cheers,
Gerry