722.370 vs 722.370s for 500E

[rinconmann]

I rebuild engines but never a tranny. Please describe the specific differences between the regular 722.370 and the .370s which i understand is a beefed up version for the 500E. How is it different? If i pull it what do i look for?

Is the housing the same? Serial numbers? / Can I take a regular .370 and make it a .370s? Will swapping affect value over time?

I have a 94 500E vin# wdbea36e3rc141176 and my local shop 7 years ago (now out of business) sent the trans to be rebuilt (or claims to have). car had 150K. Days after I got the car back and less $3200 it would not properly go into gear or would wind and then slam into gear. Shop said is was a minor vacume tube adjustment and fixed it in a few hours. I never saw what they did. Seemed to work for a month and 1000 miles then would not go into reverse one day. Mortified, I then covered and stored the car in my warehouse for 6-7 years thinking I had gotten ripped off and was so frustrated i retired my love to be brought out another day. I would suffer and drive a "normal" car until we re-united. Every year I would start it for 10 minutes.

All the while in storage the Car has leaked tranmission fluid despite shop claim of seal replacement and then even my own valve body gasket replacement. Leaked before they had it and leaked after. I filled the fluid up recently because I want to drive the car hoping it was simple fluid issue. Nothing, it wont go into any gear. Valve body? Maybe they never did that when they "rebuilt' my unit? Many lame shops cheat on this issue. Obviously I have leak somewhere and need to get under it and source it.

How can I have a failure like this with so little miles? I want to TRY and get a complete understanding of the "enhancements" above and any ideas before I pull it and try myself to rebuilt it or repair it or send it out. I'm going to do one of the three.

I have not had it/observed it on a lift yet but that's next.

Also can I check error codes for the transmission without a HHT or Star system? Any help or ideas would be great. Thanks-Ventura, CA

 

[Jim]

Please describe the specific differences between the regular 722.370 and the .370s which i understand is a beefed up version for the 500E. How is it different? If i pull it what do i look for?

Is the housing the same? Serial numbers? / Can I take a regular .370 and make it a .370s? Will swapping affect value over time?

On this link

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w126-s-se-sec-sel-sd/1377793-722-370-a.html

Talbir says

"Not all 722.370s are 500e specification, they were also fitted on r129 and w140 m119
engines - 500e specific 722.370s have the reinforced clutch packs and modified valve body."

....

I wonder...is there a 722.370s build standard or are there just plural 722.370's.

Jim

 

[samiam44]

I would guess, it is more valve body. There are beefup between V8 , V12 versus 4 and 6 cylinders.

The V12 they added a few clutch plates- that's it. Line pressures, first gear start versus second, shift points etc. I think via what dave sent me. there were basically 3 valve bodies for 400e's and maybe 3-4 for 140/129 and 500e.

I'd be upset with the shop too. They should have test driven and adjusted the tran prior to giving it to the customer. As for the leak- that sounds like the front seal to me. I'm sure it was replaced, but maybe bad/damaged ect. Not acceptable for a fresh rebuild. They should identify point of leakage and replace the part. They will probably have to eat 6-8 hrs of labor and that's why they don't want to fix it...

Michael

 

[gsxr]

I rebuild engines but never a tranny. Please describe the specific differences between the regular 722.370 and the .370s which i understand is a beefed up version for the 500E. How is it different? If i pull it what do i look for? Is the housing the same? Serial numbers? / Can I take a regular .370 and make it a .370s? Will swapping affect value over time?

There are no differences. The 722.370 transmission is the same for all models (excluding AMG-modified cars). The trans was NOT beefed up / modified for the 500E. The valve body in the 500E is the same as in the 722.370 used in the W140.051 chassis.

I have a 94 500E vin#wdbea36e3rc141176 and my local shop 7 years ago (now out of business) sent the trans to be rebuilt (or claims to have). car had 150K. Days after I got the car back and less $3200 it would not properly go into gear or would wind and then slam into gear. Shop said is was a minor vacume tube adjustment and fixed it in a few hours. I never saw what they did. Seemed to work for a month and 1000 miles then would not go into reverse one day. Mortified, I then covered and stored the car in my warehouse for 6-7 years thinking I had gotten ripped off and was so frustrated i retired my love to be brought out another day. I would suffer and drive a "normal" car until we re-united. Every year I would start it for 10 minutes.

Sadly, you got snookered by a bad repair shop. Not sure what they screwed up, or what they did if anything. Not surprising they went out of business.

All the while in storage the Car has leaked tranmission fluid despite shop claim of seal replacement and then even my own valve body gasket replacement. Leaked before they had it and leaked after. I filled the fluid up recently because I want to drive the car hoping it was simple fluid issue. Nothing, it wont go into any gear. Valve body? Maybe they never did that when they "rebuilt' my unit? Many lame shops cheat on this issue. Obviously I have leak somewhere and need to get under it and source it.

Check the fluid level with the engine idling. When cold (you can't get the ATF warm without driving it), the fluid level should be no more than approx 10mm below the MIN mark. If it's below that, add more fluid. Valve body is not likely to be the cause. More likely fluid level, less likely is front pump or shift linkage, or an internal failure (need to rebuild/replace trans).

How can I have a failure like this with so little miles? I want to TRY and get a complete understanding of the "enhancements" above and any ideas before I pull it and try myself to rebuilt it or repair it or send it out. I'm going to do one of the three. I have not had it/observed it on a lift yet but that's next.

How can it fail? Incompetent repair shop!!

Also can I check error codes for the transmission without a HHT or Star system? Any help or ideas would be great. Thanks-Ventura, CA

These transmissions are completely mechanical inside. There are no codes to check for transmission operation. There is a switch on the side (NSS / starter lockout switch) that can affect ASR operation when faulty, but that's about it.


I'd look for a reputable rebuilder, or consider a good used transmission... the 400E tranny will bolt in, only difference is the first gear start valve body, rest of the internals are the same.

BTW - welcome to the forum!

 

[gsxr]

Talbir says

"Not all 722.370s are 500e specification, they were also fitted on r129 and w140 m119
engines - 500e specific 722.370s have the reinforced clutch packs and modified valve body."
....

I wonder...is there a 722.370s build standard or are there just plural 722.370's.

All 722.370's are the same unless modified by AMG or other third-party (i.e., RENNtech, etc). They do not have reinforced clutch packs nor modified valve body as delivered by MB. Not sure why Talbir thought otherwise.

 

[Christian_K]

Yes Dave is right. There is no difference.
My Question is, are the .370 better than the earlier .365 that were in the early (probably up to End 1992 in Europe) 500Es

 

[gsxr]

Yes Dave is right. There is no difference.
My Question is, are the .370 better than the earlier .365 that were in the early (probably up to End 1992 in Europe) 500Es

Now THAT is a good question. The 400E transmissions also changed mid-production. I'm not sure what the difference is between the early & late trannies. I am nearly certain it was minor updates to the VB programming or other slight improvements. I don't think the late units are any stronger or more reliable, at least there hasn't been any data to suggest the early vs late transmissions have different failure rates.

 

[rinconmann]

Here is my update.....and questions.

Lets digress again 7 years ago after it was "rebuilt".

When I 1st got car back from "shop". It slammed into gear soon after. OK, they fixed it, obvious diagnosis right? The vacuum pressure from the intake manifold. Anyways they adjusted it or repaired whatever and I got 1000 miles after that before failure and LEAK (which existed before I took it to shop). They must have adjusted it at the control pressure cable vacuum element on the tranny of course.

Fast forward to today. After exhaustive reading online from guys like ya'll I traced the leak to..........yes, the control pressure cable vacuum element right above the rear of the tranny oil pan on passenger side. Bad and obvious leak. Does not look accessible. I only have it "jacked up" in my driveway so I cant get under it well enough more than to peek.

DO I HAVE TO DROP THE TRANNY TO REPLACE THE SEAL on the vaccum element? If not any ideas for those of you in the know? Perhaps it is loose and can be "tightened"? Riiiiiiight like that's going to happen. Any sources for exploded views?
Hoping this is the key to my problems.

That issue aside I need to get that seal fixed and then I will replace the oil and filter and pan seal as a baseline.

Please confirm - 2 Gal of Dextron II or III or redline D4 or B & M trick shift?

How to physically access the vaccum modulator to adjust the flywheel a click or 2 while on the car or check intake manifold vaccum pressure? Is it as wrist busting as it appears? Recall I am not on a lift right now.

Last: I would like the final word on any diff between the 722.370 trans for the 500E. I know that the car starts in 2nd and not all these trannys were configured the same yes? Some owners modify the valve bodies to start in 1st.

If I do have to rebuild; where can I get a heavy duty clutch pack and other "improvements" that owners have proven out.

Thanks in advance.

 

[gsxr]

DO I HAVE TO DROP THE TRANNY TO REPLACE THE SEAL on the vaccum element? If not any ideas for those of you in the know?

You can replace the seal without removing the transmission, but it's a royal PITA. BT, DT. This will only stop the fluid leak.

Perhaps it is loose and can be "tightened"? Riiiiiiight like that's going to happen. Any sources for exploded views? Hoping this is the key to my problems.

The Bowden / control pressure cable is not adjustable at the tranny. The adjustment is done at the linkage behind the airbox. There is no loose/tight, it gets adjusted per FSM procedure.

Please confirm - 2 Gal of Dextron II or III or redline D4 or B & M trick shift?

Correct. I'd use the cheapest Dexron III fluid you can find, no point in dumping in $100 of Red Line if it's going to come back out soon for a rebuild.

How to physically access the vaccum modulator to adjust the flywheel a click or 2 while on the car or check intake manifold vaccum pressure? Is it as wrist busting as it appears? Recall I am not on a lift right now.

Vac modulator is on the driver side. Basically you adjust this so that full throttle upshifts have no flare and part throttle shifts are all acceptable. Adjusting the modulator affects ALL shifts, at all shift points. Makes everything firmer or everything softer. Try 0.5-1.0 turns for coarse adjustments, single notches (1/6 turn) for fine adjustments.

Last: I would like the final word on any diff between the 722.370 trans for the 500E. I know that the car starts in 2nd and not all these trannys were configured the same yes? Some owners modify the valve bodies to start in 1st.

All the 722.370 trannies were configured the same unless modified by AMG for an E60 or S60, in which case they will have AMG stampings somewhere. For a stock USA-spec 500E, it's the same as every other 722.370 that left the MB factory. You can replace the valve body with a 400E unit to get first gear starts if desired.

If I do have to rebuild; where can I get a heavy duty clutch pack and other "improvements" that owners have proven out.

You don't buy them off the shelf. You send the trans to a rebuilder (like BlueRidgeMB) that knows how to do this upgrade. I've never seen anyone source the parts required. Seems to be a mod that very few people know how to do, and the ones that can do it, don't publish information on how it's done.

 

[johan h]

There are no differences. The 722.370 transmission is the same for all models (excluding AMG-modified cars). The trans was NOT beefed up / modified for the 500E. The valve body in the 500E is the same as in the 722.370 used in the W140.051 chassis.

So you say it is possible to buy a transmission from a R129 or a W140 and it will fit directly on to the E500E?

 

[gsxr]

So you say it is possible to buy a transmission from a R129 or a W140 and it will fit directly on to the E500E?

W140.051 uses the 722.370 for certain years.

R129 uses a different tranny... 129.066 uses 722.353, 129.067 uses 722.364, but they are still interchangeable with the 722.370.

 

[rinconmann]

gsxr pointed out the vacuum modulator is on drivers side. I mistakenly called the CPCVE the vacuum modulator in my last post. Wrong side, different part.

My leak appears to be at the Control Pressure Cable Vacuum Element; it's a long factory description so call it CPCVE. It's on the passenger side and I doubt when the bankrupt shop "rebuilt my tranny" they changed the seal, my car leaked fluid before they rebuilt the 722.370 and I had changed the pan seal before to no avail. I traced it to a 95% certainty and have now drained the fluid.

Do I have to remove the transmission to replace the seal? I know I have to remove the ATM pan to unhook the control pressure cable and replace the seal but I do not have a lift so I am looking for possible less invasive solutions. Also any specific instructions by someone who has done it would be appreciated. I know it will be a hard but can it be done? How if so? Thanks

 

[gsxr]

That O-ring is miserable to replace with the trans in the car, but it is possible. Pretty sure Doug (DWSD) did this on his car within the past year and posted about his experience...?

 

[rinconmann]

Update on tranny leak issue with my 94- E500- I have determined the leak was from a bad seal at the Control Pressure Vacuum element (CPVE)located on the rear passenger side of the tranny above the pan next to B1. BIG THANKS TO GSXR for pointing this out as I started confusing the two similar sounding parts myself.

The Control Pressure Vaccum element -NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH THE VACUUM MODULATOR located on the drivers side. The CPVE seal is at a higher point on the tranny than B1 or the ATF dip stick seal so it was easy to diagnose after doing a full cleaning of the area and waiting to view where fluid came from. The dry paper towel techniques described by others. A clear RED ring of ATF fluid was obvious at the junction of the CPVE and the tranny hole it goes into next to B1

OK since I don't have lift and my jacks and ramps are not high enough for pleasurable working conditions I assumed I would need to drop the tranny to get to it properly. I live in Ventura, CA and started looking for an independent garage with a "working owner mechanic". I just wanted a shop to drop the tranny (which I would put in my truck and rebuild myself with a seal kit from MB or just do a full trade out with a rebuilt with Jack at SunnyValley in So CAL). That was plan B since if I had to take it out I may as well do everything).

Anyways, back to Ventura. So looking for a local shop to do the "drop" the first shop gave me the run around and would not quote even a ballpark number. Second shop I walk into and I am starting face to face with the very mechanic that had originally rebuilt my tranny which failed (see my first post). Let me add too that he (or his mechanics) had dropped one of my cars off a lift 7 years before and done 25K in damage. His insurance covered the work. He had moved to Ventura and started a new shop 6 yrs ago after a divorce. I pulled him outisde and gave him my thoughts and then some more..... I guess I forgave him after he started talking about his knowledge of the 722.370 and I caved in to his charms again and asked for his help. Don't be too harsh on me.

He knows the 722.370 and told me he did not think the box needed to come down to fix the seal and that the seal can be changed out from the bottom. He had even checked with a fellow veteran Merc Mechanic and confirmed this. 2 hours max for the job. We decided we would do the work next week once I got the parts and since I had some of the parts (new pan seal and filter) we decided I would get the o-ring from MB.

Now I must share my next experience with a local MB dealers parts department. First, a disclaimer; I have bought many parts and had excellent help in the past at this dealer.

Needing an O-ring for the CPVE I ran over myself to the Oxnard MB dealers parts department and with my VIN number and full knowledge and description of what I needed AND a very clear picture of the entire rear passenger side of that tranny. Despite all this the parts guy who helped me insisted that the part I needed was NOT what I showed him and that I would need to buy $53.00 worth of parts. I can only guess he got confused about the VACUUM MODULATOR (located on the drivers side) and the Control Vacuum pressure element (located on the passengers). What I found so odd is that after questioning his insistence I even asked him to print the microfilm diagram of the tranny he was looking at on his screen. He pulled up a diagram showing the drivers side only exploded views and explained that they only have the one view and that the parts on the other side were listed. OK, really? His only response to my insistence was "well, if it's wrong we will get the right one". Now I was shocked that he would not have more knowledge of the tranny of an old 722.370 but obviously even after my insistence (and full color pictures showing everything) he would not re-consider and myself not being 100% since I have not done this work or seen inside the leaking element I paid my $53.00 for the wrong parts and promptly headed to the "shop" I was working with to tell him of my situation. Of course he immediately knew as well that I had been sold the wrong part and we decided HE would get the part. I'm no dummy here, know my stuff and know what I needed but I don't have access to the exploded views MB dealers have so despite this I was sold the wrong part by a VETERAN parts guy who I believe confused the vacuum modulator (drivers side), with the Control pressure vaccum element (passenger). I complain here because I have never been told despite my insistence and all materials I brought that I needed a part (ONE O-ring) that did not look anything like what was needed. So thumbs down to them on that deal(er).

Anyways I will post the results of the work and right part numbers next week on that leak repair and try to get some pictures for the blog. I have read other owners having difficult tranny leak problems and hope this can help. The title should be changed to Leak at Control Pressure Vaccum Element. Out

 

[szvook]

Rinconmann, if it's not too late, try this guy - Wolfgang 818.679.8223 or 818.718.7116, but he's in Canoga Park.

 

[rinconmann]

Thanks for that, I will try and drive the car in the morning to see for myself as it does not shift into 3rd gear according to mechanic after working on several issues. I may have to trailer it and bring it to dealer or Canoga Park or SunnyValley in Covina if need.

We have had some setbacks according to mechanic. I need to drive it in the AM before I can verify the mechanics story but here it is. I may have screwed up. Towed it to the shop as it did not drive (engine fine). Told them I think the tranny leak was from the Vacuum pressure element (on passenger side) as well as it not driving. Come to find that a certain shop in SB, CA had not put the o-ring seal on the pressure element when putting it and the tranny back in my car after getting a rebuild. Um....OK, don't think those Germans design things that put ATF under pressure with only metal and plastic meeting one another.

Had that replaced, +new filter, new ATF ($160 or so worth of it) seal it up and run the engine no leaks. They say they cant road test it so I come back the next day and find the car still on the lift, pan now removed, filter removed and torque converter NOW being drained (now why wouldnt they have done that the first time they filled it makes me worried) They said it would not shift right and pressure element would not hold vacuum. He showed me very dirty fluid and filter with black residue. When I originally drained the ATF it was darker and the pan had a 1mm black residue layer and some fine metal shavings. Anyways, He had a new Mann filter and another round of expensive fluids to put in it upon the advice of another mech. Ok all this was last week. On sat when i arrived I am told it wont shift into 3rd at all by the guy who has been working on the car. Project now dead in the water and the car is deep in his locked lot of cars. He thinks metal shavings may clog the valve bodies requiring that rebuilt, mentions torque converter? I would think the VERY first thing is to verify the vacuum pressure and deal with that first. Explain please what each side does? Vacuum modulator (drivers side) has its own line and Vacuum pressure element (passenger side) has it's line yet both perform diff functions. He claims he can't hold vacuum pressure from the pressure element. I thought that controlled the hardness of the shift not the shift itself.

Give me some help here? It seem this is looking like a hose job and a whole rebuilt tranny replacement on top of that damage. The torque converter was mentioned but if that were bad it would not go into any gear yes, no, complicated/? Perhaps I am just victim of process of elimination but I would think they would be able to give me some specifics rather than all kinds of expensive alternatives? They should know the diff between a torque converter problem, stuck valve body, vacuum element and or hose (passenger side of tranny) or ARE 722.370'S SO rare and unusual beasts? If the valve bodies are clogged with fine metal then can an effective flush really be done while the gearbox is stlll in?

 

[gsxr]

You are correct, the vacuum modulator on the driver's side controls the shift firmness, not the shift RPM.

The control pressure (aka Bowden) cable, which has a vacuum element (passenger side) primarily controls the shift RPM based on throttle position. The ONLY function of the vacuum element is to increase shift RPM at cold startup, to heat the catalysts faster.

Both vacuum elements should hold vacuum when tested, assuming they are connected properly. However neither would prevent an upshift if not holding vacuum.

Torque converter has nothing to do with the shifting, if it drives & shifts at all, it isn't likely anything is wrong with the converter.

The 722.3 tranny is extremely common, it was used for nearly twenty years, there are literally hundreds of thousands of them on the road in the USA.

I'm not getting the warm fuzzies that this shop knows what they are doing...

 

[Maui]

I'm no trainee expert, but I would run from that shop as fast as you can.

 

[gerryvz]

I would recommend you consider cutting bait here, and having the car brought to szvook's shop, as they are a known-good mechanic who will get the job done correctly.