Another Second Gear Delay Issue

[luckymike]

1995 E420. When gently starting from a stop, the car skips second gear every time and goes straight to third. At 23mph, every time, regardless of engine or ambient temp. It doesn't hit second briefly then shift to third, it skips second completely.

There are four ways I can experience second gear:

1. Do a jackrabbit start. Using more pedal than usual will elicit second gear and then third as expected. Slightly less pedal is needed if starting on a steep hill. So this option seems to be load- or vacuum- related.

2. Start out gently and sometime before 23mph, shift quickly into N then back to D. This gives me second gear immediately and the car shifts to third as expected.

3. Start out with the gear lever in 2. The first few starts from a stop require high revs (regardless of engine temp) before the car will finally shift to second but after a few repeats, the shift point lowers to almost normal. Then the shift to third is as expected after moving the lever to 3 or D.

4. Full throttle launch. This is my favorite option.

I know I can't hold vacuum to the shift delay box on the right side of the trans. I have replaced all vacuum lines and rubber elbows, including that almost impossible to reach one at the delay box. I have tried the BB in the vac line after the shift delay solenoid (the one on the firewall). I have also tried a replacement shift delay solenoid. I have adjusted the cable that goes down to the shift delay box longer and shorter. Nothing I do changes the above four conditions for experiencing second gear.

Anyone experienced this and solved it?

 

[gerryvz]

I'm wondering if this is a Bowden cable adjustment issue, or throttle cable adjustment.

 

[gsxr]

If you have adjusted the control pressure (Bowden) cable and there is no change, that is odd... adjusting that should affect all upshifts, i.e. making it stay in 3rd gear longer before shifting to 4th for example.

Anyway - the behavior described is very unusual IMO. My first thought is something screwy with the valve body. But before going there - what fluid are you using, and when was the last time you changed the fluid + filter?

 

[luckymike]

I've fiddled numerous times with the throttle cable, the last following the manual for adjustment. I haven't seen any changes in behavior.

As to the bowden cable, this is the one that goes down to the right side of the trans to that shift delay unit, right? As mentioned, I've adjusted that longer and shorter up at the throttle linkage with no change to the second gear issue. Yes, it affects other gears, making the shifts earlier or later but no effect on my second gear skip issue.

I changed the fluid a couple times one right after the other when we first got the car about 25,000 miles ago. Pretty sure I used Dexron III. I'm very open to changing it again and using any other recommended fluid.

 

[gsxr]

I don't think a fluid change will help. But if it was dino fluid last changed 25kmi ago, it wouldn't hurt to try again for grins... you're only out ±$75 and few hours' time on the gamble.

While it's open you could pull the K1 spring and see if anything looks odd, however this affects the 2-3 shift firmness, and would cause a flaring 2-3 upshift if any of the K1 springs were broken. I'm not sure exactly what internal component of the VB would cause skipping 2nd gear entirely. If the fluid+filter doesn't change anything, and the internals look normal, I'd swap with a different 400E VB. Michael (samiam44) may still have one for sale.

 

[gerryvz]

I have personally found that dino transmission fluid can and will go bad around 25K -- shorter than the factory specified 30K change interval. I'm now changing my transmission fluid at 20-25K miles now. Since your fluid has that many miles on it, a fluid change with new filter and gasket is warranted to baseline things. I would do that before proceeding further with other potential causes, to ensure that it is eliminated.

I recommend you stick with a dino fluid. I use Castrol Transmax, which meets Dexron III spec and has served me well for years. If you go synthetic, I'd go with RedLine D4.

 

[nocfn]

Mike - I just changed my fluid and filter after a few thousand miles after full rebuild. I have a E420 valve body but after the Redline D4, my transmission is much smoother and behaves more efficiently. Its just my experience with TC DRAIN/SL filter/D4 made things just better, more efficient.

 

[luckymike]

Okay. I will do a fluid and filter change and check the K1 springs as soon as convenient. Fingers somewhat crossed.

 

[gsxr]

I just remembered something... luckymike, can you try unplugging the kickdown solenoid wire at the back of the transmission, and go for a test drive?

 

[luckymike]

I just remembered something... luckymike, can you try unplugging the kickdown solenoid wire at the back of the transmission, and go for a test drive?

I can certainly do that. Anything in particular I'm looking for or should do during the test drive?

 

[gsxr]

I can certainly do that. Anything in particular I'm looking for or should do during the test drive?

Nope, just pull the wire and see if there is any change in shifting behavior.

 

[luckymike]

Oh man, I really hate it when people just leave you hanging on an issue. Like I did here.

Update: I've been struggling with odd codes and trying to pass smog. Turns out my ETA was bad. Don Roden fixed that.

Still have a stumble at idle, and full throttle is anything but strong. Just cut the vents in the right distributor cap to experiment with the idle issue. Looking for an opportunity to scope the ignition system when a friend has time.

The car still skips second gear. It holds first until almost exactly 23mph then shifts to third. Irritating but since the car is running adequately and Mom is keeping us busy with full time care, all projects are on the back burner.

I'll try to get back to this when there is something to report. Apologies for leaving the thread unfinished.

 

[gsxr]

Update: I've been struggling with odd codes and trying to pass smog. Turns out my ETA was bad. Don Roden fixed that.

What codes? Do you have emission test data from a failed test?

Still have a stumble at idle, and full throttle is anything but strong. Just cut the vents in the right distributor cap to experiment with the idle issue. Looking for an opportunity to scope the ignition system when a friend has time.

The ignition issue mostly appears as a significant, drastic misfire, and will eventually go away when driven long enough. If you have a power loss without misfiring, something else is going on.

The car still skips second gear. It holds first until almost exactly 23mph then shifts to third.

Have you tried unplugging the kickdown solenoid yet? It sure sounds like the solenoid is stuck on...

 

[luckymike]

What codes? Do you have emission test data from a failed test?




The ignition issue mostly appears as a significant, drastic misfire, and will eventually go away when driven long enough. If you have a power loss without misfiring, something else is going on.




Have you tried unplugging the kickdown solenoid yet? It sure sounds like the solenoid is stuck on...

I don't recall the codes and don't have failed smog test data because the car was running so rich (per my nose) I never actually took it in. The rebuilt ETA fixed all but the idle stumble and the car passed smog so I've let that issue go.

The idle stumble varies. Mostly it"s minimal enough that my wife doesn't mind driving the car. It doesn't go away after a long drive (100+ miles) but can completely disappear at times. It's more annoying than critical right now so it's on the back burner.

I haven't unplugged the kickdown solenoid yet and admit I'm mad at myself for not getting around to this. I will make a concerted effort and report back. I appreciate the reminder!

 

[gerryvz]

What did Don report back as issue(s) with your ETA?

 

[JC220]

Did someone say ignition cap mods?

 

[xfadmin]

It is now a mandatory forum rule, that all members MUST read the entire 81-page ROBM_UK distributor cap white paper before making any modifications to their distributor caps.

 

[luckymike]

What did Don report back as issue(s) with your ETA?

He didn't say. Just included a tag saying it had been tested on a car. I thought that was pretty thorough.

 

[gerryvz]

He didn't say. Just included a tag saying it had been tested on a car. I thought that was pretty thorough.

Cool. Yeah I spoke with him on the phone and asked him what he found with my ETA. He also sent me a length of the external cable to show how badly degraded the wiring was inside. I had checked it many years ago (perhaps 2005) when I lived in Portland, and it was OK at that time. But man, it was pretty badly degraded from the piece he sent me.

Great guy though! Wonderful man to speak with on the phone.

 

[robm.UK]

It is now a mandatory forum rule, that all members MUST read the entire 81-page ROBM_UK distributor cap white paper before making any modifications to their distributor caps.

I didn’t intend for folks to actually READ THE DAMN THING!!
That’s why I included pictures.