Any particular filters to stay away from on the E-420 unit?

[Ascension]

First time in one so don't know if it uses a strainer or "real" filter. Is there anything in particular I need to know on grabbing a filter kit for one of these units ( E-420) and servicing it (like a spring and valve under the filter tab or something)?

 

[jhodg5ck]

Hengst is my pref'd these days. Same filter you get when you buy one @ the dealer in my last few Genuine filter experiences.

jono

 

[gerryvz]

Which kind of filter?

- Air?
- Oil?
- Power Steering?
- Transmission fluid?

For all of those, MB OE or a Mann filter is fine. Hengst filters are also a preferred brand, and some seem to like Bosch or Mahle filters too. I think anything that is made in the EU is going to be all right. STAY AWAY from US brands like Fram, Purolator, AC Delco, Motorcraft etc. I am also very partial to the "GUD" brand oil filters, which are made in South Africa and are a very high quality product, but near impossible to find in the US unless you're well-connected.

I try to just go OE, Hengst and Mann and I'm all good. For Hengst stuff, I have found that the cheapest prices are at Autopartswarehouse.com (buy filters there ONLY) with fast shipping, and you can also get them via Amazon.com for a bit more dough. Mann stuff is available via Autohauz and other vendors for decent prices. Or you could go through MB Asheville or Lionel for MB factory stuff.

There are no real tricks if you're talking oil filter - you remove the long bolt holding the filter canister cap on and pull the filter up and out. Do this before sucking out or draining the oil from the pan. Be sure to replace BOTH rubber o-rings on the canister cap on the M119. Also I think there's a metal washer under the bolt head that should be replaced that comes in the kit. And if you drain from the pan, a new copper drain plug washer comes with.

Air filters (yes, takes two of the rectangular jobs) you unclip the top of the air box and carefully lift out the old and install the new. Don't drop/lose the clips when you pop them. Good time to clean out the inside of the airbox with a moist rag. Do these filters every 20-30K miles. Don't need to go fancy with a K&N or whatnot ... just use Mann paper filters and you're all good.

Power steering filter .. you just drain out the fluid (you can use a turkey baster to suck it out of the reservoir if you're doing a partial change) and use a hooked tool/awl to pull the old PS filter up and out. These are often neglected, so best to do it every 3 years / 30K miles or so.

Transmission filter. The 500E and 500SL use a special filter with another outlet and a slide that moves back and forth inside the filter; I haven't looked to see if the .034 (400E/E420) uses the .036 filter or not (GSXR can confirm or deny). But....a "regular" 722.3 filter will work just fine on any M119, and it's the same trans filter that a 560SEC/SEL or any other 722.3-based car from that era uses....dozens of models!

Commonly available via Autohauz or other online vendors. Get a Mann or other name brand (the .036 specific filter I use is made by Elring, a good brand) or MB OE. Don't use a cheaper brand like Meyle. The .036 specific filter is hella expensive from MB, so the aftermarket quality Elring is a great and much cheaper alternative.

Hope this helps a bit, depending on which filter you're replacing.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Klink]

Which kind of filter?

- Air?
- Oil?
- Power Steering?
- Transmission fluid?

For all of those, MB OE or a Mann filter is fine. Hengst filters are also a preferred brand, and some seem to like Bosch or Mahle filters too. I think anything that is made in the EU is going to be all right. STAY AWAY from US brands like Fram, Purolator, AC Delco, Motorcraft etc. I am also very partial to the "GUD" brand oil filters, which are made in South Africa and are a very high quality product, but near impossible to find in the US unless you're well-connected.

I try to just go OE, Hengst and Mann and I'm all good. For Hengst stuff, I have found that the cheapest prices are at Autopartswarehouse.com (buy filters there ONLY) with fast shipping, and you can also get them via Amazon.com for a bit more dough. Mann stuff is available via Autohauz and other vendors for decent prices. Or you could go through MB Asheville or Lionel for MB factory stuff.

There are no real tricks if you're talking oil filter - you remove the long bolt holding the filter canister cap on and pull the filter up and out. Do this before sucking out or draining the oil from the pan. Be sure to replace BOTH rubber o-rings on the canister cap on the M119. Also I think there's a metal washer under the bolt head that should be replaced that comes in the kit. And if you drain from the pan, a new copper drain plug washer comes with.

Air filters (yes, takes two of the rectangular jobs) you unclip the top of the air box and carefully lift out the old and install the new. Don't drop/lose the clips when you pop them. Good time to clean out the inside of the airbox with a moist rag. Do these filters every 20-30K miles. Don't need to go fancy with a K&N or whatnot ... just use Mann paper filters and you're all good.

Power steering filter .. you just drain out the fluid (you can use a turkey baster to suck it out of the reservoir if you're doing a partial change) and use a hooked tool/awl to pull the old PS filter up and out. These are often neglected, so best to do it every 3 years / 30K miles or so.

Transmission filter. The 500E and 500SL use a special filter with another outlet and a slide that moves back and forth inside the filter; I haven't looked to see if the .034 (400E/E420) uses the .036 filter or not (GSXR can confirm or deny). But....a "regular" 722.3 filter will work just fine on any M119, and it's the same trans filter that a 560SEC/SEL or any other 722.3-based car from that era uses....dozens of models!

Commonly available via Autohauz or other online vendors. Get a Mann or other name brand (the .036 specific filter I use is made by Elring, a good brand) or MB OE. Don't use a cheaper brand like Meyle. The .036 specific filter is hella expensive from MB, so the aftermarket quality Elring is a great and much cheaper alternative.

Hope this helps a bit, depending on which filter you're replacing.

Cheers,
Gerry

Mahle filters are made by the old and esteemed "Knecht Filterwerk". Mahle bought Knecht a number of years ago and has slowly rebranded all the Knecht product in its name, and that remains top-notch stuff.

Interesting that you mentioned your approval of the "GUD" brand filters. For a few years now they have been supplying a lot of the 110 /116 /117 oil filters and CIS fuel filters to the MB dealer parts system. The French "Purflux" brand has been supplying the spin on 102 and 103 oil filters for many years now and it appears to be the exclusive filter appearing in the newer V6's and V8's.

 

[Ascension]

Which kind of filter?

- Air?
- Oil?
- Power Steering?
- Transmission fluid?

Uh bro it's in the Transmission and driveline section so----.
This is what I got wind of

Transmission filter. The 500E and 500SL use a special filter with another outlet and a slide that moves back and forth inside the filter; I haven't looked to see if the .034 (400E/E420) uses the .036 filter or not (GSXR can confirm or deny).

So can some one tell me if I need the E-500 spec filter for the E-420 unit??
FCP has the Mann for $12 here http://www.fcpeuro.com/products/mercedes-auto-trans-filter-1262770295 so---.

 

[gerryvz]

The E420/400E takes the "pedestrian" transmission filter. Part number 126 277 02 95.

Here's a link to several options at AutohauZ. You're quite good to go with the Mann option for half the price of OE MB.

The 500E/500SL transmission filter starts with a 129 part number.

Be sure to get a new transmission pan gasket (Elring or OE is fine) - part number 126 271 11 80.

I always get a new transmission pan drain bolt (they're cheap, part number 000000 000884) and you for sure need a new drain bolt washer, MB part # 007603 010112.

Good thread on fluid change procedure: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=640

Cheers,
Gerry


Here's the difference between the 500E and 400E filters.

 

[Ascension]

Got it Gerry thanks. Knew I had seen something some where about a different filter being used on the E-500. Didn't know what the difference was or why and will now likely use the 500 style on my 420.

 

[gerryvz]

No problem, Broham!

You can certainly use the E5er filter on your 420, won't hurt a thing. I actually have a pedestrian filter installed on my E5er right now, with a cheap fluid (Castrol Transmax). My transmission is going to get removed and rebuilt this winter, and when it returns to me it will get RedLine D4 ATF and the proper E5er filter.

 

[emerydc8]

When I changed my E420 transmission fluid last week, I ended up not having an aluminum washer for the torque converter drain plug and I went ahead and used the new pan drain plug washer that came with the Mann filter on the torque converter (I didn't want to have to drop the cross-over pipe again to replace the torque converter washer). I ended up reusing the pan drain plug washer and it actually leaked the first time I installed it. I flipped it around and got it to stop leaking the second time. So, if you ordered just the torque converter drain plug from autohausaz, it doesn't come with a washer.

I am also very partial to the "GUD" brand oil filters, which are made in South Africa and are a very high quality product, but near impossible to find in the US unless you're well-connected.

Is there a special GVZ drop-down menu for that one?

 

[gerryvz]

I have a source for GUD stuff here in the US, but honestly Hengst is easy enough and can be had via autopartswarehouse.com cheaply (or Amazon), and is same quality.

Was surprised to see that the Klinkmeister knew of GUD. http://www.ptsfilters.co.za/p/178140/gud-filters

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Klink]

I have a source for GUD stuff here in the US, but honestly Hengst is easy enough and can be had via autopartswarehouse.com cheaply (or Amazon), and is same quality.

Was surprised to see that the Klinkmeister knew of GUD. http://www.ptsfilters.co.za/p/178140/gud-filters

Cheers,
Gerry

One of my friends and mentors that I had mentioned here recently also did lots of work on British cars and he used pretty much exclusively GUD filters in all those. So when MB started to use them a few years ago and people said "what the hell is this brand?" I was able to tell them...

 

[jeff0093]

All the old BMW filters were made in South Africa by GUD also. Like Gerry said any of the EU filters are good, but I would skip the Bosch personally. They look cheap in person.

 

[gsxr]

Hengst, Knecht, Mahle, and Mann are OEM and usually fine. Given the couple bucks more for OE/Genuine, most of the time I just get OE. People agonize over saving the two bucks, it isn't worth the time spent researching or discussing it.

Avoid all the store brands... that includes avoiding Purolator, Wix, NAPA, Bosch, and almost anything else. Yes, they are name brands, but they are almost all reboxing Chinese junk. Again, for the two bucks... just get OEM.

 

[gerryvz]

Avoid all the store brands... that includes avoiding Purolator, Wix, NAPA, Bosch, and almost anything else. Yes, they are name brands, but they are almost all reboxing Chinese junk. Again, for the two bucks... just get OEM.

They all make transmission filters for the .034 and .036?

 

[gsxr]

They all make transmission filters for the .034 and .036?

They rebox transmission filters. Probably Chinese. And you'll probably pay more too.

 

[gerryvz]

Ahh, OK that makes sense. I'll have to check that out, I have seen oil filters but not trans filters from all of those mfrs.

 

[Klink]

Hengst, Knecht, Mahle, and Mann are OEM and usually fine. Given the couple bucks more for OE/Genuine, most of the time I just get OE. People agonize over saving the two bucks, it isn't worth the time spent researching or discussing it.

Avoid all the store brands... that includes avoiding Purolator, Wix, NAPA, Bosch, and almost anything else. Yes, they are name brands, but they are almost all reboxing Chinese junk. Again, for the two bucks... just get OEM.

A disturbing phenomenon that is getting much more prevalent. What used to be reliable quality name brand filters are repackaged third world crap, at least what they sell here (USA). For example, if one sees a Purolator filter sold in the ECE, it is usually some quality Euro made stuff. The same Purolator number sold here is likely to be reboxed buttofouco. I've seen that with a number of the major parts store name brands listed above.

 

[Klink]

All the old BMW filters were made in South Africa by GUD also. Like Gerry said any of the EU filters are good, but I would skip the Bosch personally. They look cheap in person.

They really do, don't they?

 

[Ascension]

Hengst, Knecht, Mahle, and Mann are OEM and usually fine. Given the couple bucks more for OE/Genuine, most of the time I just get OE. People agonize over saving the two bucks, it isn't worth the time spent researching or discussing it.

Avoid all the store brands... that includes avoiding Purolator, Wix, NAPA, Bosch, and almost anything else. Yes, they are name brands, but they are almost all reboxing Chinese junk. Again, for the two bucks... just get OEM.

For me it's not the $ it's that I have a choice of grabbing some thing local in a no name brand, getting raped by my particular steeler, or mail ordering and waiting. Wondered if there was a solid "off brand that would be a good choice. On this one looks like unless you are going with the 195 series HP filter it shouldn't matter much as these aren't real filters just strainers on these units. I spent some years in a Trans shop and some of the older units had real filters rather than just a box with a screen like the garden variety version of these units use.
on this change I'm going with just a generic filter like a normal MANN or some thing as I have found it is overdue on the change by about 25K. I will run this change with the Castrol Dex Merc and a normal filter to flush things out then change again in about 20K using the HP filter and Redline D-4.

 

[Klink]

For me it's not the $ it's that I have a choice of grabbing some thing local in a no name brand, getting raped by my particular steeler, or mail ordering and waiting. Wondered if there was a solid "off brand that would be a good choice. On this one looks like unless you are going with the 195 series HP filter it shouldn't matter much as these aren't real filters just strainers on these units. I spent some years in a Trans shop and some of the older units had real filters rather than just a box with a screen like the garden variety version of these units use.
on this change I'm going with just a generic filter like a normal MANN or some thing as I have found it is overdue on the change by about 25K. I will run this change with the Castrol Dex Merc and a normal filter to flush things out then change again in about 20K using the HP filter and Redline D-4.

I don't remember if anyone answered your question before, or even if I may have, but these are indeed actual filters with pleated media elements, and inferior ones do come apart.

For that matter, once you get the old filter out, go ahead and cut it open and inspect the element. If there are any kibbles or bits in the element and/or the pan, photograph them and post them up. We can probably tell you what they are...

 

[emerydc8]

My curiosity got the best of me, so I went out and cut open my Mann filter from a recent transmission service. The pleats are probably 5 feet long if you stretch it out. This filter had 45,000 miles on it.

 

[clarkz71]

I would do 30K fluid change intervals

45K is pushing it

 

[gerryvz]

Better to go 25-30K FCI on dino-ATF. Always change filter when you do fluid, and always drain torque converter too.

 

[Klink]

It's been said before but it's worth saying again: Do not run your filter much past 30K miles no matter what fluid you are using.

 

[Ascension]

I don't remember if anyone answered your question before, or even if I may have, but these are indeed actual filters with pleated media elements, and inferior ones do come apart.

For that matter, once you get the old filter out, go ahead and cut it open and inspect the element. If there are any kibbles or bits in the element and/or the pan, photograph them and post them up. We can probably tell you what they are...

Thanks for that man as from what I saw in the photos of the filters closed they looked like they had the screens only not full internal filters so that's good to know. The filter on the AW I have in my Volvo is just a strainer as are most you see today it's not common to see full filters anymore.
I built a "few" units back a few years and know auto trans pretty well just never been in one of these particular units. I did it for a living back in the mid 70's- early 80's till a nagging back injury wouldn't let me anymore so these are after my time.
That is a game changer on what filters I will consider thanks.
One question for you guys is there an easy way to use a "bump switch" on these to line the converter up? Don't know how they wire to the starter yet and it's a PITA to bump these with having to roll the key all the way back each time.

 

[Ascension]

It's been said before but it's worth saying again: Do not run your filter much past 30K miles no matter what fluid you are using.

And knowing these are full filters not strainers that now makes perfect sense thanks.
That now raises the question as to why there would be an advantage to running synthetic fluid in these?
The real advantage with running synthetic is it won't chemically break down due to heat over time and pressure like normal fluid but at only 30K change intervals a standard fluid should perform very well and not break down. I really don't see much advantage on running synthetics here over a high quality standard fluid like the Castrol with those short change intervals. Now get up around 50K or so I can see it but not at at just 30K.

 

[gerryvz]

I just use a large screwdriver to lever the torque converter housing around so that the plug lines up with the opening, to drain. No big deal. You can do with a helper running a key in the ig, as well. Either/or. Screwdriver is fine though.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gerryvz]

And knowing these are full filters not strainers that now makes perfect sense thanks.
That now raises the question as to why there would be an advantage to running synthetic fluid in these?
The real advantage with running synthetic is it won't chemically break down due to heat over time and pressure like normal fluid but at only 30K change intervals a standard fluid should perform very well and not break down. I really don't see much advantage on running synthetics here over a high quality standard fluid like the Castrol with those short change intervals. Now get up around 50K or so I can see it but not at at just 30K.

+1. WHy I've always run traditional fluid. When I get a rebuild for my E500, I'm going to start it off from the get-go with synthetic, but my other cars will continue to run dino ATF at 25-30K OCIs/FCIs/

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Ascension]

I just use a large screwdriver to lever the torque converter housing around so that the plug lines up with the opening, to drain. No big deal. You can do with a helper running a key in the ig, as well. Either/or. Screwdriver is fine though.

Cheers,
Gerry

That helps as I still have my my monster 3 foot long Snap On screwdriver that I used for many years as a universal pry bar so---. Knew I didn't have room to use my flywheel tool to grab the starter ring and turn it over like I did with my old big block Pontiac's.
Haven't gotten to getting under it yet on the trans and really looked around other than checking for leaks so---.

 

[clarkz71]

Oh, hmmmmm, screwdriver hey........

I prefer to use a 1/2 breaker bar and 27mm (1"1/6) socket on the crank bolt.

Like Dave said, mark the balancer once you get the drain plug showing.

 

[gsxr]

For me it's not the $ it's that I have a choice of grabbing some thing local in a no name brand, getting raped by my particular steeler, or mail ordering and waiting. Wondered if there was a solid "off brand that would be a good choice.

And this is why it is a good practice to plan well in advance for repair & maintenance jobs, so you can order OE/OEM parts and have them shipped to you, before you need to do the job. Then you are not stuck between the rock (local junk purveyors) and the hard place (local stealership). Problem solved.

 

[clarkz71]

+1. WHy I've always run traditional fluid. When I get a rebuild for my E500, I'm going to start it off from the get-go with synthetic, but my other cars will continue to run dino ATF at 25-30K OCIs/FCIs/

Cheers,
Gerry

Did someone say transmission fluid ??......................

 

[clarkz71]

I really don't see much advantage on running synthetics here over a high quality standard fluid like the Castrol with those short change intervals. Now get up around 50K or so I can see it but not at at just 30K.

With these transmissions not lasting the longest out of all manufacturers
you need all the protection you can get.

You being a transmission guy, what's the #1 enemy of an automatic gearbox?

HEAT

Synthetic ATF handles heat far better then conventional ATF

Dave's choice of Redline D4 is an excellent one and is available on Amazon
for $10 or $11 a qt and free shipping.

Anyone installing a reman or rebuilt 722.3 should use synthetic.

Older transmissions are on borrowed time, but it can't hurt.

 

[gsxr]

You being a transmission guy, what's the #1 enemy of an automatic gearbox?

HEAT.

Bingo. A lot of people poo-poo synthetic lubes as a waste of money, but one of the numerous advantages is reduced fluid temps and reduced component temps.

Interesting anecdote: In the early 1990's, I had a chance to chat with a guy who had worked on a professional race team for a 7+ figure car (IIRC, he was the engine builder, and the engine alone was well into 7 digits). At the time, I was a Mobil-1 fan and asked him what he though, i.e. was it worth the cost, or a waste of money. He said they had switched the race car to Mobil-1 as well, reduced the quantity needed for the dry-sump system from something like 25 quarts down to like 10 quarts, and it dropped oil temps around 30°F. Bottom line, they loved the stuff. And this was a competition team that could have used anything they wanted.

 

[gerryvz]

Did someone say transmission fluid ??......................

NO !!!

 

[Klink]

Did someone say transmission fluid ??......................

 

[clarkz71]

 

[Ascension]

Oh, hmmmmm, screwdriver hey........

I prefer to use a 1/2 breaker bar and 27mm (1"1/6) socket on the crank bolt.

Like Dave said, mark the balancer once you get the drain plug showing.

If there is room and it won't over torque the balancer bolt definitely a better way to go since the old tool I have doesn't have room here to grab the starter ring! Will do on marking the balancer good tip!!

 

[Ascension]

And this is why it is a good practice to plan well in advance for repair & maintenance jobs, so you can order OE/OEM parts and have them shipped to you, before you need to do the job. Then you are not stuck between the rock (local junk purveyors) and the hard place (local stealership). Problem solved.

Figured out that drill quickly as soon as I started driving euro stuff. my local NAPA handles MANN filters and most of the normal fluids but other stuff when possible is always mail ordered. Just ordered a Mann trans filter and all the gaskets and crush washers, Mann PS filter kit and a Lemforder left tie rod assembly about an hour ago from FCP in fact.

 

[clarkz71]

If there is room and it won't over torque the balancer bolt

No chance of that, trust me, mega torque spec on that bolt

 

[gerryvz]

The torque spec on the crankshaft pulley bolt requires the average home mechanic to call Superman to pay a visit to torque it for them.

The only other way for a mere mortal is to use an 8-foot breaker bar connected to your torque wrench. I think the spec is around 275 lb-ft.

No way you will loosen it just turning the motor. And be sure to turn the motor the correct direction

I find it easier just to use a screwdriver to rotate the TC, but that's just me. Or if my wife or son are around, to bump it using the key in the ig.

 

[Ascension]

Bingo. A lot of people poo-poo synthetic lubes as a waste of money, but one of the numerous advantages is reduced fluid temps and reduced component temps.

Interesting anecdote: In the early 1990's, I had a chance to chat with a guy who had worked on a professional race team for a 7+ figure car (IIRC, he was the engine builder, and the engine alone was well into 7 digits). At the time, I was a Mobil-1 fan and asked him what he though, i.e. was it worth the cost, or a waste of money. He said they had switched the race car to Mobil-1 as well, reduced the quantity needed for the dry-sump system from something like 25 quarts down to like 10 quarts, and it dropped oil temps around 30°F. Bottom line, they loved the stuff. And this was a competition team that could have used anything they wanted.

Saw the same thing in the 600hp highly modded 455 SD Pontiac I used to run. We were running Penzoil Synthetic back in the early early 1980's in that one. Had a minor issue where we needed to pull it down after 10K or so on the street and a number of 6500+ RPM passes and were stunned with how little wear we saw and how clean it was.
Never ran anything but synthetic in an engine since.
Had a couple bad experiences with an early synthetic trans fluid and clutch flaking in that trans however so a little gun shy on the stuff will take a new look though.
Was all in a 77 TA ran low 13's with a 2.41 gear and pulled 6200 on the top do the math. Broke the right T-Top one night with a Turbo 400 on a 6700 RPM 1-2 shift it twisted the body so bad. Decided it "might" be a good idea to tie the subframes after that LOL.

 

[Ascension]

No chance of that, trust me, mega torque spec on that bolt

Thanks sounds like a plan then!
Ordered a Mann trans Filter and all the gaskets today as well as a left tie rod assembly and a PS filter kit. Should get it all in the car early next week then hit the alignment.
From there it's on to the top side and taking a look at the caps rotors and plugs.

 

[Klink]

The torque spec on the crankshaft pulley bolt requires the average home mechanic to call Superman to pay a visit to torque it for them.

The only other way for a mere mortal is to use an 8-foot breaker bar connected to your torque wrench. I think the spec is around 275 lb-ft.

No way you will loosen it just turning the motor. And be sure to turn the motor the correct direction

I find it easier just to use a screwdriver to rotate the TC, but that's just me. Or if my wife or son are around, to bump it using the key in the ig.

+500 on the warning to only turn the crankshaft it's normal direction of rotation! Turning the engine contrary to its normal direction of rotation is an almost guaranteed way to break timing chain guide rails. Never turn any Mercedes-Benz engine contrary to its normal rotation direction.

 

[samiam44]

So for the 420e- I think I would just buy my filters from our friendly Lionel Ritter.

The oil filter is not much more expensive, trans filter, $5 gasket, etc. Now I think the R129/036 filter is a significant cost difference.. I elect to go with the Knetch/Hegst filter.

Fuel filter and air filter I would get online from autohausaz or the likes. PS filter, cabin airfilter etc. Not a biggy.

There's an easy job for our new list member. Change that cabin air filter, while in the area- remove the wiper motor cover, clean and grease the mechanism(94-95') style.

For those worried about transmission heat- you can add an additional transmission cooler with a themostatic fan. My car has one which was installed by Renntech and it is simply a Sebtra oil cooler with a harness/bracket/relay which look to be re-purposed oe parts.

as for transmission fluid- I would rather change it more frequently than use synthetic with long intervals. I remember talking with Mark Langston and stu ritter. Both had never rebuilt a MB transmission which looked to have failures related to oiling/temp. Only soft parts is typical. So while synthetic will do no harm, not sure it helps. My 500e had Mobil-1 ATF and now is getting a service with Redline D4.


Michael