Bring a Trailer (BaT) Auctions: Worth Listing Your Car or Not?

[LWB250]

Definitely. The alert systems are key for my use when I am looking. A recent foray into Porsche 944s was driven by such, and provided plenty of hits for research and viewing.

Fortunately, I came to my senses and have since set that aside. For now…

Dan

 

[gsxr]

BaHaT's "TMU" policy is a complete farce. Some auctions get "TMU" branding when there's any record of speedometer/odometer repair, when there may actually be zero error in the reading. This unfairly punishes the seller, and provides incentive to conveniently not mention any cluster repairs.

Then there's examples like the new listing below, which say "8k Kilometers Shown, TMU" while the CarFax report clearly indicates 41kmi (66kkm) 20 years ago in 2002, odo currently shows ~8kkm / 5kmi, for a minimum combined of 46kmi / 74kkm.

This is more BaHaT's fault than the seller, and the seller did offer some background info in the comments. But why can't BaHaT list the odo as something like "Estimated 46kmi, TMU"?

1994 Mercedes-Benz E320

Bid for the chance to own a 1994 Mercedes-Benz E320 at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #78,523.

bringatrailer.com

 

[Gatorblue92]

Then there's examples like the new listing below, which say "8k Kilometers Shown, TMU" while the CarFax report clearly indicates 41kmi (66kkm) 20 years ago in 2002, odo currently shows ~8kkm / 5kmi, for a minimum combined of 46kmi / 74kkm.

1994 Mercedes-Benz E320

Bid for the chance to own a 1994 Mercedes-Benz E320 at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #78,523.

bringatrailer.com

Still no bids on that one with 4 days left. Don't think I've seen that before on BaH. If it wasn't on the west coast in Canada I would bid but I don't want to deal with getting it back to Delaware.

 

[gsxr]

Still no bids on that one with 4 days left. Don't think I've seen that before on BaH. If it wasn't on the west coast in Canada I would bid but I don't want to deal with getting it back to Delaware.

(Reserve auction + Canada) x Minimal History = Bidding Open. Would be a really nice driver at the right price but I have a feeling the reserve is not low. Kinda surprised BaHaT didn't insist on "no reserve" on this one.

 

[Bogeyman]

It's not easy being green...

 

[Gatorblue92]

(Reserve auction + Canada) x Minimal History = Bidding Open. Would be a really nice driver at the right price but I have a feeling the reserve is not low. Kinda surprised BaHaT didn't insist on "no reserve" on this one.

RNM at 10k. The high bidder was very lucky IMHO.

 

[gsxr]

RNM at 10k. The high bidder was very lucky IMHO.

It actually looked like a REALLY nice car, with a decent explanation for what happened, but... same formula mentioned previously still applies.

Based on the comments, now I'm curious about the export process from Canada. If it's that much of a PITA - either pay a broker, or have to pray you can get through Customs if driving it down south - ugh. Not to mention transport could be $$$$, I have no idea what it would cost for international transport.

Which brings up another question. How many buyers are located in Canada? Assuming it's a very low percentage, why wouldn't a Canadian seller try to get it titled in USA first before selling on BaHaT? I have a feeling many USA buyers walked away (er, closed the browser tab) as soon as they saw Location = Canada.

 

[LWB250]

Silly question, but I wonder what would prevent you from getting stopped at the border if you went up there, slapped a set of US plates on it, and drove it through? I wonder if they keep track of license plates or cars as they transit in/out?

Worst case, you feign ignorance and say "Sooorrry" (with appropriate Canadian accent, of course.)

Dan

 

[maw1124]

Silly question, but I wonder what would prevent you from getting stopped at the border if you went up there, slapped a set of US plates on it, and drove it through? I wonder if they keep track of license plates or cars as they transit in/out?

Worst case, you feign ignorance and say "Sooorrry" (with appropriate Canadian accent, of course.)

Dan

Nah… they would have to be US plates registered to THAT car, which I think would be difficult to get without transferring title, which most Secretaries of State probably require importation documentation (transferring from Oh Canada). FL actually needs to inspect the car (confirm VIN) before they’ll issue a plate, with rare exception, as you know.

To the rest of your question, those Homeland Security border computers are piped into every state SoS, and a few other databases as well (e.g. security clearances, federal agents, etc.). So the plate for your 500E “might” work on a debadged 300E of the same color, but that’s close enough to be intentional if they actually checked the VIN. Check that, they have a separate camera on the VIN, which is likely cross referencing with the plate camera in seconds. So, no, a plate switch won’t work. But I presume you’re joking.

maw

 

[gsxr]

Silly question, but I wonder what would prevent you from getting stopped at the border if you went up there, slapped a set of US plates on it, and drove it through? I wonder if they keep track of license plates or cars as they transit in/out?

This might work to get the car across the border, assuming maw's camera-nanny doesn't catch it. The problem, per the BaHaT peanut gallery, is that you then need the export/import paperwork to get it titled in USA.

 

[LWB250]

Nah… they would have to be US plates registered to THAT car, which I think would be difficult to get without transferring title, which most Secretaries of State probably require importation documentation (transferring from Oh Canada). FL actually needs to inspect the car (confirm VIN) before they’ll issue a plate, with rare exception, as you know.

To the rest of your question, those Homeland Security border computers are piped into every state SoS, and a few other databases as well (e.g. security clearances, federal agents, etc.). So the plate for your 500E “might” work on a debadged 300E of the same color, but that’s close enough to be intentional if they actually checked the VIN. Check that, they have a separate camera on the VIN, which is likely cross referencing with the plate camera in seconds. So, no, a plate switch won’t work. But I presume you’re joking.

maw

Sort of - it was more a random thought than anything else. I know better than to toy with Customs, especially Canadian customs. I've sparred with them before when crossing for business purposes, and of all of the countries I've visited over the years, in excess of 75, they have the worst customs and immigration there is when it comes to scrutiny and difficulty in crossing.

Years ago I made the mistake of stating I was entering Canada to work, and boy, what a mistake that was! I was going to Halifax to train some of our (Canadian) distributor personnel. No matter that I was going there to train Canadians, the simple fact that I would be "working" suggested I was taking jobs from Canadians.

They held me for three hours and refused to let me leave until I made a big fuss about calling the RSO (resident security officer) at the U.S. Consulate in Toronto. I got ahold of the RSO and told him what was going on. He spoke with the immigration officer, who looked angry when he put down the phone and tossed my passport at me, telling me I could go. "Where?" I asked. "To Halifax."

Ever since then, whenever I've entered Canada I'm always on holiday.

Dan

 

[gsxr]

Sort of - it was more a random thought than anything else. I know better than to toy with Customs, especially Canadian customs. I've sparred with them before when crossing for business purposes, and of all of the countries I've visited over the years, in excess of 75, they have the worst customs and immigration there is when it comes to scrutiny and difficulty in crossing.

You're not kidding. About 10 years ago my wife and I drove two 500E's into Canada for the Summit ET Finals (national drag racing championship races) in Canada. I was first, my wife was behind me in the other 500. The customs guy tells her something along the lines of, "Your husband said he's going to sell this car in Canada." She politely told him he was full of stuff. She was let through, but I got waved to go inside for additional interrogation.

There was more to the story but I forget the details. Eventually they let us through. Apparently almost all of the hundreds of racers driving from US to the Great White North were hassled in various manners. I guess they didn't want us spending money in their economy for the next week? Needless to say we have very little interest in returning. (Oh, and we learned the hard way that Mountain Dew, Coke, Pepsi, etc are all - get this - caffeine-free in Canada.)

 

[LWB250]

You're not kidding. About 10 years ago my wife and I drove two 500E's into Canada for the Summit ET Finals (national drag racing championship races) in Canada. I was first, my wife was behind me in the other 500. The customs guy tells her something along the lines of, "Your husband said he's going to sell this car in Canada." She politely told him he was full of stuff. She was let through, but I got waved to go inside for additional interrogation.

There was more to the story but I forget the details. Eventually they let us through. Apparently almost all of the hundreds of racers driving from US to the Great White North were hassled in various manners. I guess they didn't want us spending money in their economy for the next week? Needless to say we have very little interest in returning. (Oh, and we learned the hard way that Mountain Dew, Coke, Pepsi, etc are all - get this - caffeine-free in Canada.)

Similar situation for a bunch of my coworkers who went up to Canada for support (of Canadian customers) at a big RV rally. When they were crossing they had things like toolboxes in their cars, and got hassled extensively over the issue that they would be "working" when they were there. Canada is very protective of their jobs, and the remotest threat that someone is coming there to work in a job that a Canadian could do gets the Immigration guys and gals seriously worked up.

In my case I tried to reason with the officer that yes, I was working, but the work I was doing was to benefit the locals in doing their jobs and promoting more work for them. He didn't want to hear it, which is when I got pissed and called the consulate.

As a point of reference, if you're ever traveling outside of the U.S., always have a list of the embassy or consulate where you're going. When you get there, call the general number and ask for the Resident Security Officer and register with him/her. They'll take down information on where you're staying, who you are, your itinerary, etc., etc. If anything goes south while you're there or if you need help, they'll know where you are and how to contact you. This is a service provided to any U.S. citizen by the State Department and cheap insurance, especially if you're traveling somewhere where things could be sketchy or get bad in short order.

Dan

 

[Bogeyman]

Back before 9/11 my wife and I were on a fall leaf watching trip to New England. We were aimlessly wandering back roads in northern Vermont when we unexpectedly came up to the Canadian border. Upon approach a rather rotund female officer came out of the hut with a wave to us. I erroneously assumed she wanted us to just proceed, so I did. As I left I looked in the mirror and saw this lady running up the road behind us frantically waving both arms. I of course stopped and she then gave me the riot act about not obeying her obvious (?) indications to stop. I made up a story about going to Montreal to visit relatives and was released with a warning to not try it again...

 

[TerryA]

Times have really changed. In July 1975 I crossed the border into Canada out of Detroit in our 1972 VW Bus with the Wife, 2 kids and 3lb poodle we drove the Canadian side of the border and re-entered the US at Niagara Falls, NY. I don’t remember any kind of hassle at the border in either direction.

 

[maw1124]

Those are the guys I know. @TerryA your wife, kids and poodle must be stunning!

Jokes.

Separately, this latest E5E on BaT seems to be well received so far + the seller gave this Board positive press for once. I approve of it all.

maw

 

[ace10]

Seventeen months, two (or three?) owners, and fifty one miles later, this 993 goes back through BaH.

18k-Mile 1995 Porsche 911 Carrera Coupe 6-Speed

Bid for the chance to own a 18k-Mile 1995 Porsche 911 Carrera Coupe 6-Speed at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #80,339.

bringatrailer.com

I really did expect this sort of silliness to calm down after the crypto house of cards came tumbling down, but no....

 

[sheward]

One more off topic border account...

When in high school friends and I crossed the border regularly to play hockey in Canada where the ice time was cheap at 12 - 3am. The border guards would take one look at the hocky bags and tell us to go on our way. That would have been about the time Terry recounted.

Years later, I crossed simply for pleasure and was randomly selected for search. They found the stock of a shotgun (my parents were skeet/trap shooters and were regularly modifying guns) I had forgot was in the trunk and we spent about an hour answering questions, being searched, and being "observed".

 

[Jlaa]

Seventeen months, two (or three?) owners, and fifty one miles later, this 993 goes back through BaH.

18k-Mile 1995 Porsche 911 Carrera Coupe 6-Speed

Bid for the chance to own a 18k-Mile 1995 Porsche 911 Carrera Coupe 6-Speed at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #80,339.

bringatrailer.com

View attachment 150588


I really did expect this sort of silliness to calm down after the crypto house of cards came tumbling down, but no....

Its being sold by @Scott_Ales, who sold the 80K 500E last week.

 

[ace10]

Its being sold by @Scott_Ales, who sold the 80K 500E last week.

 

[Jlaa]

View attachment 150589

Personally I like those sport beetles, but I don't understand why they go for what they do, dollar-wise. Porsche made a gazillion of them. Like 7x more of those 993 ones than w124.036s. Maybe the market needs more S&P pain and NASDAQ pain, not just crypto pain?

 

[sheward]

Personally I like those sport beetles, but I don't understand why they go for what they do, dollar-wise. Porsche made a gazillion of them. Like 7x more of those 993 ones than w124.036s. Maybe the market needs more S&P pain and NASDAQ pain, not just crypto pain?

Is that a comparison of world wide or USA?

My first thought, beside they are just great sports cars, is that because they are sports cars that are not easily pushed hard a lot of them were wrecked or abused.

 

[Jlaa]

Is that a comparison of world wide or USA?

My first thought, beside they are just great sports cars, is that because they are sports cars that are not easily pushed hard a lot of them were wrecked or abused.

Worldwide. 68K 993s produced, vs 10K w124.036s produced. The prices just seem bonkers to me.

 

[maw1124]

Worldwide. 68K 993s produced, vs 10K w124.036s produced. The prices just seem bonkers to me.

Let's not forget, that the used to be (and probably now wannabe) Ferrari crowd are priced out, no matter what crypto is doing, and have for the last decade been chasing Porsche instead, less for the acquisition than the maintenance costs. Also, I don't know if DIY applies AT ALL when it's a Ferrari, unless you're a Ferrari tech. And we haven't even thought about parts availability (or pricing) yet. "Dealer only" much? Like, who's scouring eBay for used Ferrari parts? Full freight only, and that's a lot of money to pay for props when you're going to drive it like grandma anyway. And if you're going to the track, well that's another reason why not Ferrari.

So the preference for and reality of DIY and track experience, which is more prevalent these days, means Porsche instead of Ferrari. And if your wallet is even smaller, you go buy a BMW M.

maw

 

[duuder]

You can diy a Ferrari, up to a 360 its not too difficult per my mechanic. He says i have enough skill to work on one (F355 my fav) and i dont consider myself mechanically incline

Let's not forget, that the used to be (and probably now wannabe) Ferrari crowd are priced out, no matter what crypto is doing, and have for the last decade been chasing Porsche instead, less for the acquisition than the maintenance costs. Also, I don't know if DIY applies AT ALL when it's a Ferrari, unless you're a Ferrari tech. And we haven't even thought about parts availability yet. Like, who's scouring eBay for used Ferrari parts? Full freight only, and that's a lot of money to pay for props when you're going to drive it like grandma anyway. And if you're going to the track, well that's another reason why not Ferrari.

maw

 

[gerryvz]

Someone needs to come up with a SportBeetle-as-a-Service business.........

 

[RicardoD]

I missed my chance at F355 DIY land but not getting one a few years back when they were below 6 figures. There are some great DIY threads on those models in Ferrarichat including how to weld up your own engine cradle for the engine drops required for regular maintenance.

 

[maw1124]

You can diy a Ferrari, up to a 360 its not too difficult per my mechanic. He says i have enough skill to work on one (F355 my fav) and i dont consider myself mechanically incline

You'd basically have to, from what I hear of the prices to service the car.

@RicardoD just made my point. What I saw was "required engine drops for regular maintenance." That's gonna be the hardest pass for most folks.

And even then, you're not taking it to the track or pushing it too hard. And having attended Finali Mondiali at Daytona a few years back, I don't have that crowd figured for DIY. They can clearly afford the car, and the enclosed trailer to drag it around, and for someone else to do the work (which someone might just be traveling with, on their dime).

maw

 

[duuder]

I like hanging out here! He does a lot of these belt services and he doesn't take the engine out. Testarossa and F355. I made a deal w/ myself, only way to own one if I did the work myself

 

[maw1124]

I like hanging out here!

Reminds me of someone I know...

On this score, I just heard an analyst on CNBC state that "used cars prices have outperformed crypto in the last 18 months"... that would IMO make BaT absolutely worth it.

maw

 

[ace10]

BaH sent an email asking if I'd like to sell a vehicle that I had purchased on that platform five years ago.

Seemed odd, given the backlog of listing we're being told exists.

 

[maw1124]

BaH sent an email asking if I'd like to sell a vehicle that I had purchased on that platform five years ago.

Seemed odd, given the backlog of listing we're being told exists.

You're reading my mind. I was just thinking maybe a 1/2 hour ago (about cars they've accepted and rejected, how they market, etc) that they have a built in incentive to keep model prices high. Nothing over 100k miles unless they can market it ("single family owned" etc).

The logical end of that business model that I've seen is EAG in Ohio (Enthusiast Auto Group — Enthusiast Auto Group), where they corner the market on low mile pristine BMWs, perform whatever the cars need, sell them for obscene amounts to people who will pay (recouping their service fee and then some), buy them back probably at a mild discount (quick sale), then resell them again for obscene amounts of money. What's better than one ridiculous markup? Multiple ridiculous markups.

BaT seems to be going the same way with commissions.

Someone here was asking where they could sell their car quickly and I thought about EAG. But I don't know if they'd take a 500E with any real mileage. Might be worth a call though.

maw

 

[ace10]

EAG dipped their toe into E500E puddle a few years back. It was that black one that the flipper in TX bought from them and tried to flip on BaH only to have it land in purgatory being inventoried by that SoFla flipper dealer.

 

[maw1124]

Toe dip is exactly right. I don't visit their site enough to know if they've been back. TBH, I don't know if that model works outside of BMWLand. But you can see how BaT is doing basically the same thing with "let us earn a commission on your car again." Bulls and Bears make money, Pigs get slaughtered, Brokers always get paid.

maw

 

[ace10]

Received email from Hagerty today announcing that they're getting into the online auction biz.

(apologies if this blows up anyone's browser.)

​

It’s (almost) bidding time​

Launching in November, online auctions from Hagerty Marketplace will feature amazing cars you don’t want to miss.

Pre-register to bid

​

Get ready, get set, bid

Hagerty Marketplace auctions offer a new way to buy and sell especially desirable vehicles online.

​ Every single vehicle is curated by a car specialist, with pre-sale and post-auction client support provided.

​ For enthusiasts looking to buy or sell the most sought-after vehicles, Marketplace auctions offer a trusted, hassle-free way to do it.

Hagerty Marketplace auctions offer a new way to buy and sell especially desirable vehicles online.

Learn more about auctions, get a sneak peek of cars you’ll see come November and pre-register to bid right here. Pre-register to bid

 

[gsxr]

I got the same email from them. As if the online auction market isn't already saturated with BaHaT, C&B, MBM, BFA (Barn Finds), and Hemmings. But, the Hagerty name carries some weight and might lift them above C&B/MBM/BFA. That is, IF Hagerty can execute properly (which MBM didn't).



EDIT: Added Hemmings - thanks, Ace!

 

[ace10]

Hemmings is still out there, too.

 

[LWB250]

Hemmings is still out there, too.

Hemmings was/is a bust, isn't it? I've never paid attention to it. I would think they've gotten lost in the noise.

Dan

 

[ace10]

Hagerty auctions went live today.

Classic Cars Auctions / Classifieds | Hagerty Marketplace

Search all classic and collector cars for sale on Hagerty Marketplace. See auctions near you and the best car classifieds today!

www.hagerty.com

I tried to register two weeks ago, but then they wanted a scan of my state-issued ID, and I noped-the-hell-outta there. There's 0.00% chance I would ever agree to that.

 

[maw1124]

Hagerty auctions went live today.

Classic Cars Auctions / Classifieds | Hagerty Marketplace

Search all classic and collector cars for sale on Hagerty Marketplace. See auctions near you and the best car classifieds today!

www.hagerty.com

I tried to register two weeks ago, but then they wanted a scan of my state-issued ID, and I noped-the-hell-outta there. There's 0.00% chance I would ever agree to that.

Not for the sake of researching cars that are also listed everywhere else for free and with no personally identifiable information…

Nothing like being late to market with a commodity offering and expecting premium terms…

maw

 

[LWB250]

That's pretty darned invasive when almost every other auction site only requires a credit card number and your personal information. A scan of your state-issued ID? Big nope for me as well. If I had a car insured with them I would challenge this, too.

Dan

 

[gsxr]

Hagerty auctions went live today.

Classic Cars Auctions / Classifieds | Hagerty Marketplace

Search all classic and collector cars for sale on Hagerty Marketplace. See auctions near you and the best car classifieds today!

www.hagerty.com

I tried to register two weeks ago, but then they wanted a scan of my state-issued ID, and I noped-the-hell-outta there. There's 0.00% chance I would ever agree to that.

Do they want this for bidding registration only?

Or do they want it for all registration (to post comments as a peanut gallerist)?

 

[ace10]

Do they want this for bidding registration only?

Or do they want it for all registration (to post comments as a peanut gallerist)?

They've bifurcated the insurance account login information from the "marketplace" login. I have an existing insurance account, but they want me to create a new account to bid or even comment.

I cannot even fathom digitizing my ID and handing it to an e-commerce platform. Their pledge: "Your ID will never be shared with others." Yah, that and six bucks will get you a cup of coffee.

To top it off, the linky to their TOU is circular and just brings you back to the auction landing page. So there's no way to see what their actual privacy policy is.

What a fcuking joke.

Kinda reminds me when MBM copied the BaH T&C's verbiage word for word when they stood up that platform.

 

[ace10]

There's NFW BaH still has any sort of significant backlog. NFW.
This Land Cruiser was sold less than two months ago on the West Coast. And now it's back up for sale in Virginia.
It would have taken at least a week or two to transact the deal and get it transported.
The seller claims to have become reattached to his old truck since this one's arrival.

1997 Toyota Land Cruiser FZJ80

Bid for the chance to own a 1997 Toyota Land Cruiser FZJ80 at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #90,374.

bringatrailer.com

Regardless of emotions or intentions of the seller, this is absolute proof that the market is changing. Dramatically.

Based on the trees leaves, I'd say the pictures were shot in the 3rd week of October-ish.

 

[maw1124]

There's NFW BaH still has any sort of significant backlog. NFW.
This Land Cruiser was sold less than two months ago on the West Coast. And now it's back up for sale in Virginia....
Regardless of emotions or intentions of the seller, this is absolute proof that the market is changing. Dramatically.

Meaning you think he just overpaid and now wants to get out of a bad deal by selling it before the values drop farther?

maw

 

[ace10]

Meaning you think he just overpaid and now wants to get out of a bad deal by selling it before the values drop farther?

maw

Meaning within the span of seven or eight weeks this owner decided he wanted to re-sell the truck and was able to get it listed on BaH.

Auction ended 9/9/22.
+ Transcontinental shipping.
That puts it in his hands in late September.
The current auction went live on 11/4/22.

Weren't we hearing about wait lists that were months upon months long?

I'm not even talking about his cost basis or motivation. But yes, he WAAAAAY overpaid for the truck. It's got upper hatch rust and he's in for mid $30's. It's a low to mid $20's rig outside of BaH.

 

[maw1124]

Yes, I think their contradiction is internal. They are rejecting some while relisting others. So the “backlog” (if it exists at all), exists BECAUSE of their relisting preference (a la EAG) for cars that will sell too highly (and pay too high a commission). Why list a new “lukewarm” model when you can resell a hot model in the same space? Heat being a proxy for how much people are overpaying at the time. So LCs and M3s will always have room but S55s, not so much. And let’s not forget the sport Beetles.

So yes, two things are true at once — BaT does not have room for some cars, while at the same time they’re busy relisting others. But are they actually rejecting E5Es? Not to mention that they can just cut and paste copy for certain cars.

$.02

maw

EDIT... to this point, fully 3 of the cars on my notifications today are repeats from early '22. Those have to be the easiest copies to write and perhaps some of the "best data points" but still, anticlimactic.

 

[Gatorblue92]

IIRC there were only about 1500 total manual 300E's imported over 2 years (86 and 88 only) and 2 of them are currently on BaH. I would be pretty pissed if I was the seller of either one.

No Reserve: 1986 Mercedes-Benz 300E 5-Speed

Bid for the chance to own a No Reserve: 1986 Mercedes-Benz 300E 5-Speed at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #90,121.

bringatrailer.com

No Reserve: 1988 Mercedes-Benz 300E 5-Speed

Bid for the chance to own a No Reserve: 1988 Mercedes-Benz 300E 5-Speed at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #90,761.

bringatrailer.com

 

[maw1124]

IIRC there were only about 1500 total manual 300E's imported over 2 years (86 and 88 only) and 2 of them are currently on BaH. I would be pretty pissed if I was the seller of either one.

But the Benz manual transmissions of that day were some of my favorite ones to drive, along with the Nissan and Honda ones. I didn't know anything other than that they felt better and seemed easier to drive.

maw

 

[Gatorblue92]

But the Benz manual transmissions of that day were some of my favorite ones to drive, along with the Nissan and Honda ones. I didn't know anything other than that they felt better and seemed easier to drive.

maw

They were very very good to drive and really gave the M103 legs. I had a 300TE which I swapped in a 5 speed and it was one of my all time favorite cars.