Febi front LCA's - Ball joints are shot

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

The shop building the headers estimates a 20% increase in torque around 2300-2400 rpm, however, that been tested on a few AMG E63, S63 and SL63. If I can achieve that, I'll be a happy camper and the shop feels very confident that it can be done with the M119.

I'm also surprised why no one has jumped on the valve bodies fire sale, the prices can't be beat. I paid more than the asking price when I got my FGS valve body installed back in 2009.

 

[Ron500E]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

The shop building the headers estimates a 20% increase in torque around 2300-2400 rpm, however, that been tested on a few AMG E63, S63 and SL63. If I can achieve that, I'll be a happy camper and the shop feels very confident that it can be done with the M119.

I'm also surprised why no one has jumped on the valve bodies fire sale, the prices can't be beat. I paid more than the asking price when I got my FGS valve body installed back in 2009.

The question is... do they feel confidant enough to give you a written guarantee? If their confidence equals their ability, knowledge and expertise there should be no problem.
I would LOVE to see the Before/After dyno pulls... if they estimate it, with some degree of confidence and expertise, they should have no problem of giving you a guarantee complete with a price reduction if it does not meet those goals. Let's say you'll agree to pay the full quoted price if they achieve a 20% increase between 2300-2400 RPM's. If they achieve only 10% you'll agree to pay 60% of the quoted price. And at 5% you pay 25% or whatever you feel is fair. A gain of less than 5% and they should bend over and store it as well as eat their time and materials.
If they have both the knowledge and confidence in their work that they claim they should have no problem agreeing to some terms but I'd bet our current President that they wont. And if they only get a 5% increase you basically have given them $5K for nothing. A dyno pull before header installation should establish a baseline and keep everybody honest as you're dealing with a % basis and not a final number basis.
20% is a BIG gain... excuse me for being skeptical, and I certainly don't want to rain on your parade, but I also don't want you to throw your money away either (unless you throw it my way of course). After all Mrs. Vook likes Cartier and, being Russian, you know the Faberge Gods cannot be lurking too far behind. And that's when things get REAL pricey and makes Cartier look like K-Mart. At that point you might want to change your employer to company called Vor in order to afford some of that stuff.
I hope I am wrong and will be able to eat these words but after playing with cars for 40 years or so it's given me the wonderful opportunity to hear every claim, every bit of BS and every story that, somehow, never lives up to the hype generated before the customer actually parts with the money. Once the money has left the customer's possession all sorts of entertaining, and expensive, "reasons" surface as to why something didn't quite go as discussed. And the only person who needs the 55 gallon drum of Vaseline is the owner of the car.
At the very least look and listen to their reaction as you ask them about a performance/price goal/guarantee. That alone should tell you a lot. Somehow I see a pretty informative "song and dance" show, complete with Top Hat and Cane, if you do care/dare ask them.
Kind Regards,

Ron

 

[gsxr]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

The shop building the headers estimates a 20% increase in torque around 2300-2400 rpm, however, that been tested on a few AMG E63, S63 and SL63. If I can achieve that, I'll be a happy camper and the shop feels very confident that it can be done with the M119.

Uh-oh. I was afraid they would be basing their estimates on the newer AMG engines. DO NOT believe the claims for the M119. The primary limitation is the LH engine management which was likely developed in the late 1980's. They cannot adjust the ignition timing curve, period. Even with full standalone engine management, don't believe a claim of 20% at ~2400rpm. That is 6.0L power, and an exhaust change won't transform your 5.0 into a 6.0 motor. No way, no how. I'd be shocked if they could pull off a 10% torque increase. A more realistic number is 5%, maybe, with lots of tweaking and dyno tuning.

You could always get it in writing up front, that the power gains have to be proven with before & after dyno runs. And if it doesn't measure up, you either don't pay, or pay a much reduced rate. I bet when they hear that, they will suddenly lose interest. Or flatly refuse those terms.

Side note: The RENNtech 6.0 dyno graphs for the same motor configuration with & without headers, showed a significant power loss below 4000rpm. As in, 20% less torque at 3000 rpm!! This was in different chassis on different dynos, so it's tough to say if the raw numbers are directly comparable, however the shape of the two curves was unmistakeable. The header setup was a pooch below 4k and, surprisingly, started tapering off above 5.5k. Could a good tuner help fix that? Probably not with the LH engine management. If Hartmut couldn't do it, I have no reason to think other folks - with far, far less experience on the M119 and LH - could do it. The gain from 4.0-5.5k was under 5%.

Hagmann & Dbilas both have dyno-proven cam setups that will give you 20-30hp (~10%), I'd pester them...

 

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Ron and Dave, thank you very much for the info, I will make sure everything is on the table for the headers shop as well as RB Tech (who will the install and who has a trick up their sleeve for adjusting timing on the M119), so let's see what happens when the time will come for headers and cats to go on. If I can set a few more grand aside, I just might do the camshafts on top....or as Ron put it "throw the $ his way".

P.S. - Mrs. Vook is still a Ms. for now, but that will change. The next item for her is Bvlgari, Faberge will have to wait for Mrs. Vook to arrive.

 

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Shwing, shwing...

Sticker indicates they are made in Slovenia, hmmm.

 

[gsxr]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Looks like they are TRW's - interesting. Nice photos, Steve, do you mind if I swipe 'em for my website?

 

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Looks like they are TRW's - interesting. Nice photos, Steve, do you mind if I swipe 'em for my website?

No problem, go for it. Btw, what does TRW mean?

 

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

I'll try to get some pics with Febi's and these LCA's side by side next Saturday, maybe we can see a difference.

 

[diaconovic]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

No problem, go for it. Btw, what does TRW mean?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRW_Automotive

 

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRW_Automotive

The general TRW reference I'm aware of, my uncle used to work for them for 35 years. But I wonder what is the TRW stamped reference on the E500's LCA's? The sticker says made in Slovenia (which could be referencing the manufacturing location), or are they made by TRW for Mercedes?

 

[DW SD]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

I wonder if the ball joints failure contributed to the alignment work you needed recently? Definitely, if they become sloppy, the alignment could be lost.
Doug

 

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

I wonder if the ball joints failure contributed to the alignment work you needed recently? Definitely, if they become sloppy, the alignment could be lost.

The alignment still feels the same as it did prior to the recent track day. One item from the alignment that stood out was the toe range from the printout for the 036 and it being too high for the front and rear axles (the caster and camber ranges and final settings were to factory specs). The final toe setting is a tad higher compared to the alignment specs in the service tech manual. I doubt the more positive toe settings would cause the ball joints to get loose, since the car drives the same. I'm bringing the service tech manual with me for next Saturday.

 

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Ok, so I got nowhere with trying to find out what do the TRWE B and D stamps mean. Ran this by Tom at MBUSA and he replied with: "It must be some acronym for something in German. We have manufacturing plants all over the planet building parts to our spec under license. You won’t find any legitimate reference to who makes what for us online. Proprietary insider stuff. Our manufacturers all sign strict non-disclosure agreements." So that's as far as I got.

 

[gerryvz]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Yeah, sometimes on factory parts the OEMs are readily apparent because their logo is on the part (for example, 124 or 126 vacuum pods), and other times (for example, 124 or 126 accumulators) the OEM logo/manufacturer mark is NOT on the part.

I have a noose knotted and ready, and looped over one of the ceiling beams in my garage shop, for the day when I see a Üroparts, FEQ, Hamburg Technic or Trucktec logo on a factory, MB part in an MB box. And believe me, I will definitely use that noose if/when that day comes.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Be careful, Gerry, some folks might hold you to that threat! (Uh, could you update your will to leave me first dibs on buying the wagon if/when that day comes?)

 

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Damn...the body isn't even cold yet and the line is already forming.

 

[gsxr]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Yep... the vultures are already circling. I hear he has a nice C126 if that's your thang.

 

[Trae]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Would someone please send Gerry a Üroparts, FEQ, Hamburg Technic or Trucktec logo on a factory, MB part in an MB box!
That would free up at least three good MBs.

 

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

I have a noose knotted and ready, and looped over one of the ceiling beams in my garage shop, for the day when I see a Üroparts, FEQ, Hamburg Technic or Trucktec logo on a factory, MB part in an MB box. And believe me, I will definitely use that noose if/when that day comes.

Now that's what I call dedication to the OE...or else.

 

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Would someone please send Gerry a Üroparts, FEQ, Hamburg Technic or Trucktec logo on a factory, MB part in an MB box!

What would a set of Febi LCA's get us?

 

[gsxr]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Awesome photo.

BLOOOONNNNNNDIE!!!!! You sonofa....!!!

 

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

All good now. The new LCA's went on this Saturday along with a new alignment and the car feels great. The car was alignment to factory specs from the service tech manual.

The slight play in the steering was eliminated, which I could only have felt after the LCA'S were replaced. The play wasn't a lot, but enough to notice. The car tracks much better and feels tighter now.

A correction of my part, the Febi LCA's I have (err, had) were also made in Spain. I don't see the second sticker from underneath the car, since it was on the other side. The other LCA didn't have a second sticker but was at least visible from underneath the car and it only read "febi Germany". When I got the Febi's, they were shipped directly to the shop and I only saw them once they were mounted. That, and I mistook the "febi Germany" reference as the country made in reference, my bad.

Both of the ball joints had lots of play and could be easily moved, right ball joint way more so than the left one - the right ball joint could be flicked with ease from side to side with one finger.

Anywho, heading to the garage now to give the Febi's their overdue dumpster funeral...I hope this is the last LCA funeral I have to attend.

 

[gerryvz]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Motul fluids & Febi LCAs.

 

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

No more Febi's ever (too bad they are now associated with Bilstein)..Motul stays where it is with OE Mercedes. The only reason I went with Febi's in the first place (price notwithstanding), I called the dealership and after running the part numbers for price check, I asked if they knew who manufactured the LCA's and Febi is what I was told...and here we are today.

 

[gerryvz]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

You were 100% told wrong. Febi is NOT a manufacturer.

Also....Febi is NOT associated with Bilstein, the shock maker. The company is called Febi Bilstein but they are UNRELATED. Bilstein (shocks) is still same as always -- excellent quality, German made, MB OEM.

Febi Germany is the label they purposely put on their boxes and labels, in order to make people THINK the parts are made in Germany. Febi is merely a re-boxer of other companies' parts, and it's a crap shoot as to what you will get. Sometimes decent stuff, sometimes Chinese crap. More and more frequently, it's crap. Febi does NOT make its own products.

If you look at the vendor list you'll notice that Febi is in the "sometimes OK" (middle) list but is NOT in the "always good/approved vendor" list.

Again ... Febi Germany / Febi Bilstein is NOT NOT NOT related to Bilstein the shock/strut manufacturer.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

After dealing with the dealerships as infrequently as I do and factoring in the recent LCA's fiasco, I'll just call Tom Hanson @ MBUSA from now on.

Thank you of the Bilstein correction.

 

[gsxr]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

I'm seriously bummed about the Febi failure. Any chance you could complain to them and try for warranty replacement? (To sell to someone else, since I know you'd never use them on your car.)

My Febi LCA BJ's still appear to be OK, btw, but that car has not had any track use (road course)... just dragstrip, which is low-stress on the BJ's.

 

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

I'm seriously bummed about the Febi failure.

You're bummed?
I'm not exactly head over heels about getting stuck with having to drop over a grand into this fix...j/k.

Any chance you could complain to them and try for warranty replacement? (To sell to someone else, since I know you'd never use them on your car.)

Since these are aftermarket parts, I doubt the pursue to recoup what I spent is worth it, plus aren't parts warranted for only one year and since I did put the Febi's under track use, I need to test the OE LCA's on the track to be 100% sure. The alignment shop also mentioned that Febi LCA are not know to be as good as OE (when they found out I had Febi's) and that OE LCA's should handle intermittent track use, so let's see what happens down the road.

My Febi LCA BJ's still appear to be OK, btw, but that car has not had any track use (road course)... just dragstrip, which is low-stress on the BJ's.

That's good, btw, how old are they? I hope you can fight the urge to keep them of the road course tracks, so we chalk up the Febi's as not track able. I guess I'll have to be the LCA's track use guinea pig.

 

[gsxr]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Mine were installed 4-5 years ago by the PO, probably 30kmi on them now, approx?

We'll need to have Jono track test some LCA's on his TrackRat™.

 

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

We'll need to have Jono track test some LCA's on his TrackRat™.

If he would be willing, it wouldn't hurt to get a second set of LCA's on the track to test.

 

[gsxr]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Looks like Vookster was the canary in the coal mine... here's another reported failure:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/3204910-post107.html

Jon and Michael on this forum are also checking into possible Febi BJ issues on the late LCA's. Might be a bad batch... uh-oh.

 

[samiam44]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

TRW longer exists...

I've got a bad febi on my 420 e. My 320 e I did the replaceable joints... 2004 and they were stamped trw and dealer purchased.

I think it is strictly a wrong type of steel and wrong or no heat treatment. Anyone whom removes a bad one should try and carve the steel w a pocket knife. It would be great to get Rockwell hardness #. I bet they are made out of 1144 steel or something sift... Fast machining...

Is the government handle safety issues on aftermarket parts? Seems like I've seen recalls at AutoZone on lca.

Maybe moog USA would make a run? All my truck stuff was still marked made in the USA.

Mike

 

[gsxr]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Mike, when you pull the bad one off your wife's E420, maybe you can do a post-mortem? Also post the years/miles on your bad one.

 

[samiam44]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Hopefully there will be some sort of date stamp marking.. so we'll have a data point. I no longer have access to verify Rc.. but will do my pocket knife test.


Michael

 

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Looks like Vookster was the canary in the coal mine...

Tweet, Mother F'ing tweet...

 

[samiam44]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Note for clucking, there is a TSB for possible steering box bolts being loose. It's in the W124 bible.

 

[samiam44]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Is there a consistent pattern in parts numbering. 124330 "34" 07. 1243303507. Is the driverside always even numbered or is the passenger side always one digit higher?

LHS 1243303407
RHS 1243303507

Mine looks to be a bushing failure possibly and not a balljoint. It's got movement.. hard to say without a helper. Humm, wonder it will come in by Friday=)



michael

 

[emerydc8]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Note for clucking, there is a TSB for possible steering box bolts being loose. It's in the W124 bible.

Thanks, Mike. I hadn't considered that. I'll check it out.

Is the driverside always even numbered or is the passenger side always one digit higher?

The valve cover gasket part numbers are 119 010 13 30 for the left and 119 010 14 30 for the right. So, the driver's side is odd and one lower on these parts. Looks like the passenger side might normally be one higher as a general rule? But we should wait for the mushroom guy to chime in.

Looking at the head gasket kit, the left is 119 010 52 21 and the right is 119 010 50 21.

 

[gsxr]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Typically left/right are one digit apart, but NOT always, and it's not always the right side that is the higher number. But for a number of items, yes, this is often true, like the LCA's.

 

[500Eboard]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

we should wait for the mushroom guy to chime in.

Hmm..I quite like the sound of that ...

 

[gerryvz]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Hmm..I quite like the sound of that ...

View attachment 21354

OMG !

 

[gsxr]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

OMG !

...

 

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

If we are moving towards using the "Mushroom Guy" label, we (err, he) might need a new avatar.

 

[gerryvz]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

we (err, he) might need a new avatar.

That's Jelmer's department. I set the strategy, Jelmer makes it happen.

 

[jhodg5ck]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

just an aside, but were the boots on your LCA's double wired on..? the way Febi attaches them they don't hold on for anything.. I double wrap the bottom of the boots in stainless mil spec safety wire. This seems to keep them in place.. I also pack a bit more grease in there (M1 synthetic).
I do have a set on the track rat, so far so good but if I've put 1K-1.5K miles on them I'd be surprised.

Will keep an eye out.

jono

 

[szvook]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

were the boots on your LCA's double wired on..?

Nope.

 

[jhodg5ck]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

I suspect (hope?) That was part of the problem.. First time i went to install a pair I noticed the boot was pulling up almost immediately and the grease load seemed a little bit Light IMHO.. we will see if My "improvements" turn out to be as much..!

jono

 

[emerydc8]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

I decided to scrap the Febi boot retainers as well. I used heavy safety wire instead. This is what happened just as I was installing the LCA. Definitely not a good design. I hope the rest of the joint isn't that poorly designed.

 

[samiam44]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

Ahh.

So you guys think the wire retainer comes off and you get dirt in the joint??

I asked and got a response from Stu Ritter last night. He said they had such poor luck with Febi suspension and steering parts, they went with only OE in the late 90's. Boots were a joke, rubber parts didn't last.
So, I'm guessing this is not a new thing..

Jono- do you use some 032 safety wire?

Sincerely,

Michael

 

[jhodg5ck]

Re: Febi front LCA's ball joints are shot

yes, the retainers from the factory don't hold worth a damn.. so Samiam and I made out own.
Yes, 032 stainless safety wire. Double wrapped and nicely twisted/tucked if I do say so myself..


Febi doesn't really Make anything other then boxes...so their parts are Very much hit or miss depending on where They sourced them from...Blah.

jono