German Bullets: 1992 Audi S4 vs. 1992 BMW M5 vs. 1992 Mercedes-Benz 500E

[kwontumspeed]

I wonder how these would rank today if these same models were tested 30 years after the fact. The 036's build is above and beyond the Bavarian models for longevity as I know a couple of M5s from this era that are not aging well. But I know Audi is also pretty robust against age.

But would the original author, et al, still stand behind the 1992 rankings?

German Bullets: 1992 Audi S4 vs. 1992 BMW M5 vs. 1992 Mercedes-Benz 500E

From the Archive: The three most powerful sports sedans in America trip our triggers.

www.caranddriver.com

 

[maw1124]

This is the article I was looking for a while back, in one of the related threads ("Little Sedans" or something). My PO included a hard copy in the service binder with my car.

'92 is a long time ago, but I think that analysis still holds. It's the redline thing that makes people love BMW's, and the handling. I never understood that, and I kinda still don't. But it makes people feel like the car is doing more than it is. The Benzes are sedate IMO, and do the same thing but feel like they're not doing much, which just happens to work for me. They go about their business with a silent aplomb, which for me is worth paying extra.

BTW, I'd be happy owning either of those cars in the same condition as my E5E, although none of the interiors hold up as well (and of course the interior is where I live, so...).

maw

 

[Duh_Vinci]

BTW, Id be happy owning either of those cars in the same condition as my E5E, although none of the interiors hold up as well...

Absolutely agree, would be happy with any, and to interior, W124 leather interiors, with proper care - tend to withstand the time and use better than any other for sure!

 

[sheward]

I've always wanted a set of those S4 seats. Some of the nicest of the times. Recaros? I looked for a couple years before I gave up and reupholstered mine. As mentioned, always worn out.
There was a well-used M5 listed here last week... $7,500. Worn out.
My own 500E had some of the most badly worn seats I've seen in 15 years of looking. Really an anomaly, but due entirely to abuse in the Florida sun. Other than that, the interior looks unaffected.

Thanks for posting.

 

[maw1124]

Absolutely agree, would be happy with any, and to interior, W124 leather interiors, with proper care - tend to withstand the time and use better than any other for sure!

I have to say though, that I have all three (3) marques from between '04 and '06, and the Audi interior is second only to the Benz. Whereas the M3 interior... well, let's just say it's a 3-series (so not exactly fair, as the S55 and 4.2 were halo cars). The M5 from those years is better but would still be third on the list. So Audi interior fit and finish has vastly improved. My Audi interior has suffered the most abuse of the three (winters, camping, sports hauler) and held up admirably. The M3 sees the least use (beach and dinner duty) yet its interior shows the most wear.

But the S55 still cost damned near double both of them, so nothing has changed there.

maw

 

[gsxr]

I wonder how these would rank today if these same models were tested 30 years after the fact. The 036s build is above and beyond the Bavarian models for longevity as I know a couple of M5s from this era that are not aging well. But I know Audi is also pretty robust against age.

It would be awesome to re-test a good example of each on modern rubber. Probably never happen, but that would be a lot of fun. I'm sure a forum member would be happy to loan a car for testing (I would, although it's not entirely stock). I bet a lot of M5's are not in similar condition compared to an 036 of similar miles.

But would the original author, et al, still stand behind the 1992 rankings?

German Bullets: 1992 Audi S4 vs. 1992 BMW M5 vs. 1992 Mercedes-Benz 500E

From the Archive: The three most powerful sports sedans in America trip our triggers.

www.caranddriver.com

I was trying to figure out why this old article was getting rehashed as new, when it's simply an electronic reprint of the original paper version titled "Magnum Force", as seen here in the forum archives.

 

[albdentist]

They gots the wrong M5, IMHO the M39 is the more appropriate competitor to our .036, both have V8's ...

 

[maw1124]

They gots the wrong M5, IMHO the M39 is the more appropriate competitor to our .036, both have V8s ...

Hard to compare a '92 with an '03 anything during those years though. That's what makes the .036 so special to me. My guys have E39M's and whenever I try to compare the .036 to them, they're like "nah, that S55 is closer, but it's not close."

The E39M and the E55k are natural competitors in time and tech. But again, that's not close. People will say the E55k cost too much and give the win to the E39M though.

And I'll keep laughing.

maw

 

[gsxr]

What maw said. The 2003 M5 should compare to the 2003 E55 Kompressor. Not fair to give BMW a 10-year advantage.

 

[Glen]

Here's a more recent comparison of the M5 and 500E. The article originally came out sometime in mid to late 2000's as I recall not 2018. The 500E is our very own captruff's immaculate car while the M5 belonged to a guy who parked in the same structure as me at work.

https://www.hemmings.com/stories/article/mb-500e-vs-bmw-m5

 

[Glen]

What maw said. The 2003 M5 should compare to the 2003 E55 Kompressor. Not fair to give BMW a 10-year advantage.

The '03 E55K is much quicker than an E39 M5, believe me I know first hand. But I still prefer the M5.

 

[TerryA]

If anyone remembers Jeff/Captruff’s was in a sports car magazine article that compared his 93 500E to an M5. It was a really nice comparison. That’s probably the closest you’ll come to a rematch.

Edit: @Glen, Thanks for posting

 

[maw1124]

The 03 E55K is much quicker than an E39 M5, believe me I know first hand. But I still prefer the M5.

Prefer a 3rd pedal do you?

maw

 

[albdentist]

I agree with the posts above, the cars are different from different eras. However in my post above i didn't make myself clear.

In my mind the heart of any car is the power plant, and this is what i was trying to express. The E39M S62 is similar in configuration to the M119 V8, DOHC 4V, whereas the E34M S38, is an inline 6. A phenomenal detuned racing engine close to the M1. For me this difference drives the comparison farther apart. Its all about he engine...

Mario

 

[dionphaneuf]

I love rereading contemporary reviews - I've read this one on Dave's site before along w the 400E review from the same issue. They add fun context on these cars and it's interesting to note how much they loved the 500E, price aside. It also helps frame the somewhat tepid receiption I think the w210 e55 amg got - that's a great car that's very solid and competent, but lacks something (style, whatever) compared to the 500E. I just wish that MB had done a few things more to the 500E to set it apart from other MBs powertrain wise - hotter cams, more displacement, whatever - but as you can see from articles like this it wasn't hurting for power then or now.

I've driven E39 M5s and while they're great cars, I walked away a bit 'whelmed'. The E39 is a masterpiece stylistically (like the w124) and that powerplant is awesome, but the car is too big to realistically hustle on anything remotely technical. It's nice to have a manual but it's still more suited to the Autobahn than it is the backroads.

 

[maw1124]

…but lacks something (style, whatever) compared to the 500E. I just wish that MB had done a few things more to the 500E to set it apart from other MBs powertrain wise - hotter cams, more displacement, whatever - but as you can see from articles like this it wasnt hurting for power then or now.

Ive driven E39 M5s and while theyre great cars, I walked away a bit whelmed. The E39 is a masterpiece stylistically (like the w124) and that powerplant is awesome, but the car is too big to realistically hustle on anything remotely technical. It’s nice to have a manual but it’s still more suited to the Autobahn than it is the backroads.

It’s those damned abominable bubble headlights!! A pox on the house of whoever came up with that.

But seriously @dionphaneuf my guys who own E39Ms say kind of the same thing. They all love the E46M, but feel like once it gets bigger than that it may as well be an S55. And as much as I love their E39M cars (one in particular is Carbon Black over Cinnamon, Heritage leather, the works), I feel like the car is lost in the middle.

Same for the E55 (K and nonK tbh) — too big to be sporty, not luxo enough to be luxurious. But then again I’ve yet to see an E55K spec’d out with leather dash and alcantara headliner like that E39M I love. This is where MB goes wrong all the time to me. They reserve “loaded to the gills” for the cars that have a 6 in the badge. So here I am plotting a leather headliner in my S55 and still tempted to swap dash and door cards from a 600/65 level car.

The E5E nailed this particular balance IMO. It’s got almost everything you could get in a W140/R129 6-level car, in an EClass body.

maw

 

[duuder]

Hard to compare a 92 with an 03 anything during those years though. Thats what makes the .036 so special to me. My guys have E39Ms and whenever I try to compare the .036 to them, theyre like nah, that S55 is closer, but its not close.

The E39M and the E55k are natural competitors in time and tech. But again, thats not close. People will say the E55k cost too much and give the win to the E39M though.

And Ill keep laughing.

maw

Speaking of E55s, here's my neighbor's before he moved. It's so fine!

 

[maw1124]

Speaking of E55s, heres my neighbors before he moved. Its so fine!

I'm with it from every conceivable angle that doesn't show the headlights. There's one in my neighborhood that I'm tempted to approach the owner, but then those damned headlights. Silver is the only color that hides them BTW, objective, unassailable proof that Brilliant Silver is the most forgiving paint color.

Meanwhile, this guy... ("they don't paint pictures, they just trace me...")

maw

 

[gerryvz]

Im with it from every conceivable angle that doesnt show the headlights. Theres one in my neighborhood that Im tempted to approach the owner, but then those damned headlights. Silver is the only color that hides them BTW, objective, unassailable proof that Brilliant Silver is the most forgiving paint color.

Meanwhile, this guy... (they dont paint pictures, they just trace me...)

maw

https://www.500eboard.co/forums/threads/04-1992-car-driver-magnum-force.391/

 

[maw1124]

https://www.500eboard.co/forums/threads/04-1992-car-driver-magnum-force.391/

Of course we covered it first... I'm publicly wondering why the guy doesn't simply contribute meaningfully here as opposed to using what's learned here to run a "pump and dump" (IYKYK) on his 'gram.

Slightly back on topic...

Everyone loves a BMW until they get knee deep in BMW shit. The RACP issues on these "peak BMW" (E39M and E46M) are damned near comical. Mine has less than 100k on it, was under warranty when I bought it and has been garage kept ever since. Yet IIRC it needed new jacking points. I didn't ask why and don't even remember what was going on. But this video might change my ownership plan for that car. They're just not built as well as I'm used to.

maw

 

[gsxr]

Im with it from every conceivable angle that doesnt show the headlights.

All our cars have names. The W210? Wife named it "Bugeyes".

'Nuff said.

 

[duuder]

wow, just watched the video and man - thats just scary. i make it a point that whenever my car is on a lift, i look at all the nooks and crannies

 

[kwontumspeed]

wow, just watched the video and man - thats just scary. i make it a point that whenever my car is on a lift, i look at all the nooks and crannies

Same, that's just a disaster.

It is a reminder for us to stay on top of our lower/rocker cladding removal and cleaning. I *try* to do this every year living in the city in the forest. Pretty shocking how much this area catches after one seasons of fallen leaves (along with front electric fan/condenser).

 

[dionphaneuf]

I actually think the w210 gets way too much flack stylistically and otherwise, mostly because the 124 is such a masterpiece. Rear 3/4 it's not a bad car, and on the inside it's meaningfully larger than the 124 without being way bigger on the outside. We had both s124 and S210 4 MATIC wagons and while the latter was a bit soul less it definitely felt like an upgrade at the time. If I had the space that would make a great family work horse, the 4MATIC system is so much simpler on those 210s. I also really think the 210 looks better as a wagon for some reason, I wish we'd gotten the 55 wagon here, or even the 430 sport 4 matic as a wagon.

Edit: not that the s124 isn’t a workhorse

 

[sheward]

Great pics!

I am the oddball that likes the 210 round lights. I also liked the Jag-U-ar S type round lights which the critics piled on. I've found a lot to like in the w210. There is just more to like in the W124.

 

[gsxr]

Ive found a lot to like in the w210. There is just more to like in the W124.

The W210 has a lot, and I mean a lot, of features/enhancements over the 124. Styling is in the eye of the beer holder, as always, but it's tolerable. I've owned our 210 for 11 years now.

The one thing which IMO holds it back from greatness (styling aside), and/or is a distinct drawback from the 124, is overall build quality. In particular the interior bits just don't hold up nearly as well, and of course everything is NLA, and as a bonus you can't find good used parts because those are all shot too. So you gotta find one in pristine condition and attempt to keep it that way. YMMV, etc. (I heard this 9kmi W210 will be back up for sale soon, btw.) Body/corrosion is another concern, Google the spring perch failures for example. Mechanicals are very good to excellent for all the available powertrains, even better than most 124's.

But I'm still not converting the fleet to 210's.

 

[duuder]

i see a lot of the 210s w/ the disease but seems people got a lot of daily use from them. ive always lusted after a silver 99 e55 though

 

[Jlaa]

I love rereading contemporary reviews - Ive read this one on Daves site before along w the 400E review from the same issue. They add fun context on these cars and its interesting to note how much they loved the 500E, price aside. It also helps frame the somewhat tepid receiption I think the w210 e55 amg got - thats a great car thats very solid and competent, but lacks something (style, whatever) compared to the 500E. I just wish that MB had done a few things more to the 500E to set it apart from other MBs powertrain wise - hotter cams, more displacement, whatever - but as you can see from articles like this it wasnt hurting for power then or now.

When I was 17 and in High School, that CD article sold me on the 500E. I finally purchased one twenty four years later. In retrospect with modern hindsight I also wish MB made the engine hotter. However back in 1992, Mercedes cars were still trying to crawl out of their “can barely get out of their own way” reputation which had been cemented by 10+ years of w123 diesel lethargy. 60-something horsepower 240D anyone? A v8 from a German manufacturer was already a nearly unheard of idea. BMW had just released an insane 282hp 4.0 liter v8 to critical acclaim in 1989 in the e32. There were no MB v12s and the most insane car around that wasn’t Italian unobtanium was the Corvette ZR1 with a ludicrously powerful 385 HP 4 cam v8 motor built by Mercury Marine ….. a full 145 HP more brawny than the L98 v8 corvette.

This was a time, recall, that a Ferrari Testsrossa in 1989 made 380 ish hp! So for MB to put in a 322HP v8 in a midsized car was just …. Absurd.

 

[gsxr]

There were no MB v12s and the most insane car around that wasn’t Italian unobtanium was the Corvette ZR1 with a ludicrously powerful 385 HP 4 cam v8 motor built by Mercury Marine ….. a full 145 HP more brawny than the L98 v8 corvette.

This was a time, recall, that a Ferrari Testsrossa in 1989 made 380 ish hp! So for MB to put in a 322HP v8 in a midsized car was just …. Absurd.

Add to the above, that you could special order a 6.0L AMG engine for your 500E, with ~380hp (allegedly under-rated and maybe producing 400+hp)... which could possibly embarrass the ZR-1 or Testyrossa. Based on test reports I can find with data on each, the 500E 6.0L would either be inching ahead, or very close behind, either of those in real-world conditions. Can you imagine the look on the face of either driver when they can't shake some "300E" up to 155mph? (Or beyond, if the AMG was de-limited.)

Italian horse were apparently smaller and weaker than both American and German horses, btw. On paper, the Ferrari should handily beat both due to the much lower curb weight, but on the road it does not - however, results vary depending on the car being tested, and of course the driver / conditions / etc:

Tested: 1990 Chevrolet Corvette ZR-1

From the Archive: It's out of the park, over the center-field stands. The fans are chanting, "Chev-ee, Chev-ee, Chev-ee!"

www.caranddriver.com

Tested: 1985 Ferrari Testarossa

In this archived road test, the Testarossa blows through the quarter-mile like Hurricane Freddy.

www.caranddriver.com

Note Ferrari upped the ante circa 1993 with a power boost and name change to "512 TR" and that new 512 version should be a bit quicker & faster than the AMG E60.

 

[maw1124]

i see a lot of the 210s w/ the disease but seems people got a lot of daily use from them. ive always lusted after a silver 99 e55 though

Here you go… 1996 Mercedes-Benz E50 AMG For Sale | The MB Market … actually tolerable in Silver, given what lurks beneat. Not a 55 but it makes the point about colors, headlights, and AMG wheels (I don’t think they need be period correct monoblocks). Reasonable minds can differ, but metal does in fact age and stress with time and use, so newer works for me as long as they fit without spacers.

maw

 

[duuder]

Here you go… 1996 Mercedes-Benz E50 AMG For Sale | The MB Market … actually tolerable in Silver, given what lurks beneat. Not a 55 but it makes the point about colors, headlights, and AMG wheels (I don’t think they need be period correct monoblocks). Reasonable minds can differ, but metal does in fact age and stress with time and use, so newer works for me as long as they fit without spacers.

maw

How did AMG squeeze 25hp from this engine?

 

[gsxr]

How did AMG squeeze 25hp from this engine?

Higher compression ratio (domed pistons) and slightly hotter cams, plus some port/polish work. Lots of $$$ for minimal gain. Might have been a little from the ME 1.0 system as well, if it was able to get more aggressive with timing vs LH-SFI, but the compression bump would limit that somewhat.

 

[Markus-MD]

Hi gsxr .little bit offtopic too this theme here ,i have you and gerry send an PM message. do you recive this.Was 2 days ago.
soory for this here.regrads Markus

 

[TerryA]

Here you go… 1996 Mercedes-Benz E50 AMG For Sale | The MB Market … actually tolerable in Silver, given what lurks beneat. Not a 55 but it makes the point about colors, headlights, and AMG wheels (I don’t think they need be period correct monoblocks). Reasonable minds can differ, but metal does in fact age and stress with time and use, so newer works for me as long as they fit without spacers.

maw

Basically, This car is the first E55. It’s only 2HP short of the first US 1998 model E55. I have no clue why MB increased the HP rating by 2HP.

 

[maw1124]

Basically, This car is the first E55. It’s only 2HP short of the first US 1998 model E55. I have no clue why MB increased the HP rating by 2HP.

I think it’s just safety margin.

MB were internally more comfortable at output per liter numbers that HWA (and therefore RENNtech) thought were laughably conservative. The fact that our M119s run basically forever shows that HWA was probably correct there. I need to check to see what else AMG did with that 55 block besides supercharging it.

It also means, for example, you can take a M113k and boost it like 20% without cutting into real safety margin on the block internals. You may need a larger throttle body (82mm), cooler plugs, larger injectors, a looped fuel rail, headers and separate cooling circuits, but IF you can get a tune to run it all, the block may again just run forever, and your 500hp/520tq Kompressor will then be more like 600hp/650tq. But it’ll also no longer feel like a MB. I briefly drove an S55k that was like that, which produced a prompt “No, thank you” from me.

maw

EDIT... what I really want to see but have not been able to find is what made MB go to twin spark in the M113 engine. Intuitively I can imagine why, yet I've not read anything definitive.

 

[gsxr]

Basically, This car is the first E55. It’s only 2HP short of the first US 1998 model E55. I have no clue why MB increased the HP rating by 2HP.

These are two completely different engines. The E50 was a hand-massaged 5.0L M119, DOHC 32-valve.

The E55 was a standard production M113, SOHC 24-valve, with larger 5.4L displacement. MB was able to get near equal power with less modifications from the near-10% displacement increase.