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FOR SALE GROUP BUY: Mercedes 500E Badge
- Thread starter Ntrepid
- Start date
Over the past 24 hours I have been able to progress this a bit as well as realize how big this project is! What I have discovered so far on this journey:
- The 3D scan of the badge must be done at high resolution to ensure the tolerances are nearly identical to the original part and scanning a reflective surface introduces some challenges which Magaflux helps with registering data points
- The output of the 3D scan will need to be put into a STEP or IGES file for the part manufacturer to understand (regardless of if the part is injection molded, additive printed, CNC machined, etc.)
- The STEP or IGES file will be able to provide a DXF file for the detailed double sided label which allow the badge to be mounted flush to the trunk lid
- There are now potentially 3 ways to produce this part:
- CNC (plastic or metal)
- Additive Print (plastic, nylon, or metal)
- Elastomeric Mold (plastic)
In parallel, I am working with @kwontumspeed to get a label priced out as well as identifying a shop which can chrome a part (plastic or metal).
Robert
Whoever paid $120K for that crap was smoking some serious stuff.
Does the Owner replace the banana daily? Ha!
CNC-ing each part would be the most costly. I think you would have good results from an elastomeric mold, given the production quantity and in attempt to keep a reasonable price point.
The process would be to CNC one MASTER and then create the mold casting. Then each part would then be cast from the rubber mold. It might be difficult to add the recessed feature on the back of the plaque, though.
The process would be to CNC one MASTER and then create the mold casting. Then each part would then be cast from the rubber mold. It might be difficult to add the recessed feature on the back of the plaque, though.
Cheers to Robert @Ntrepid & Robert @kwontumspeed for their promising research!
Over the past 24 hours I have been able to progress this a bit as well as realize how big this project is! What I have discovered so far on this journey:
So the next step for me is to identify the process which will produce the highest quality part (i.e. not discernable to the best eyes on fit and finish). Once I choose that process, I will come back to the group and provide materials, quantities needed, timeline, and pricing which will then trigger a call for funding.
- The 3D scan of the badge must be done at high resolution to ensure the tolerances are nearly identical to the original part and scanning a reflective surface introduces some challenges which Magaflux helps with registering data points
- The output of the 3D scan will need to be put into a STEP or IGES file for the part manufacturer to understand (regardless of if the part is injection molded, additive printed, CNC machined, etc.)
- The STEP or IGES file will be able to provide a DXF file for the detailed double sided label which allow the badge to be mounted flush to the trunk lid
- There are now potentially 3 ways to produce this part:
- CNC (plastic or metal)
- Additive Print (plastic, nylon, or metal)
- Elastomeric Mold (plastic)
In parallel, I am working with @kwontumspeed to get a label priced out as well as identifying a shop which can chrome a part (plastic or metal).
Robert
Molding/casting/extruding in some plastic/poly compound is the way to go on this. The reflection issue for the scanning is solved by spraying the badge with a water soluble paint, so no worries about Jeff's badge. During the 3D modelling they smoothen any imperfection on the surface to a perfect finish for chroming. Machining and final preparation of the mold will be the challenge and the cost driving part.
Joe @JC220 did a research on this earlier this year: FOR SALE - NOS - 500E rear badge | Parts for Sale
And member @nmal and @linjam had some interesting comments in post #43 and post #46
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
Just a side note; 3D is really an amazing feature used at any scale! As the major part of the industry does, we have used 3D at work for the later 15-20 years. It's implemented in the entire product chain from concept development, fabrication, assembling, final inspection & testing, installation & commissioning. Subsea Systems - TechnipFMC plc
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Thanks Arnt. Molding/casting/extruding is the only way? Why would 3D printing not work?Cheers to Robert @Ntrepid & Robert @kwontumspeed for their promising research!
Molding/casting/extruding in some plastic/poly compound is the way to go on this. The reflection issue for the scanning is solved by spraying the badge with a water soluble paint, so no worries about Jeff's badge. During the 3D modelling they smoothen any imperfection on the surface to a perfect finish for chroming. Machining and final preparation of the mold will be the challenge and the cost driving part.
Joe @JC220 did a research on this earlier this year: FOR SALE - NOS - 500E rear badge | Parts for Sale
And member @nmal and @linjam had some interesting comments in post #43 and post #46
---- ---- ---- ---- ---- ----
Just a side note; 3D is really an amazing feature used at any scale! As the major part of the industry does, we have used 3D at work for the later 15-20 years. It's implemented in the entire product chain from concept development, fabrication, assembling, final inspection & testing, installation & commissioning. Subsea Systems - TechnipFMC plc
Jamie
I just crossed over a milestone of getting the 500E badge sent out to be laser 3D scanned. This is no small undertaking from a cost perspective as it is in the low 4 figures to do and have a STEP or IGES file made. What this means is that I am pretty comfortable with the ability to accurately recreate the badge at a good cost point in one of the methods described above.
In my travails since my last post in this thread, the person who will take the scan file, produce a DXF file for @kwontumspeed to make a adhesive label, and clean it up for sending to manufacturing works coincidentally with someone who makes chromed parts for the automotive industry. Since he knows that I am looking for something that must be identical to the chroming on the cars we have, he is going to put me in touch with this person to get a quote for chroming this part.
I'm hoping by the end of this coming week, I'll have the manufacturing method and material selected as well as the unit cost. At that point, I'll need to start getting a final count for how many units people will want.
It should be noted that additive printing (a.k.a 3D printing) is a dark horse in this process while CNC appears to be the frontrunner.
Robert
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not to forget, under that black strip below the fonts is a raised dotted pattern. Its hardly noticeable from distance but upclose you can clearly see the texture despite the black color on it. will share a pic of it soon.
mentioning because 3d scan most likely wont pick this up.
mentioning because 3d scan most likely wont pick this up.
I think you are talking about this (see pic). The one I have for sale without the black strip has this dotted pattern you mention.
Attachments
@Ntrepid Please up my purchase intent to a dozen badges. I may as well start my own retirement plan supplement of NLA parts hoarding (business model emulated from other members in here) while at the same time helping the group to faster achieve the economy of scale of this group buy. I may increase that depending on the final 'per badge' cost.
From what I've seen does 3D printing leave a too rough surface for chroming, which means a polishing process is needed prior to chroming. That is not easy on a plastic part, but if it is possible at all it will add cost anyway. You know the surface on chromed parts has the high gloss finish prior to chroming. The thickness of the chrome layer is just some thousands, so if the surface is matt - the chrome will be matt as well. Mirrors is a good reference in this regard, where the glass has a high gloss surface and the chrome is applied to achieve reflection.
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If the scan doesn't pick up that texture, maybe it can be added during preparation of the 3D model. The 3D programming is pretty awesome.
This is in fact a parallel to what I have been thinking for some time regarding the increasing NLA issue by Mercedes-Benz, especially over the later 2 years. MB run their philosophy about this based on a decreasing demand for spare parts for aging models, and the fact that new cars is their future basis. The spare parts production for aging models will at some point be phased out and most of the 90's era MBs are already a long way into the process. But the main problem is that MB doesn't put their spare parts production out on license in the spare parts industry. The spare parts industry is huge and the quality level can be anything from the URO garbage up to OE factory specs, with an increasing price accordingly. But MB protect this really well and rather quit the spare parts production.
The headlights and lenses is a good example, and we believe that the more orders/requests placed, the higher is the chance for another production run. It may happen, but we have no idea about what numbers MB expect to set off another production run - and when it will happen if ever. Personally I have no believe in that the low demand by some orders ticking in now and then will result in a production run. And I guess many owners doesn't even place an order because they are told that the headlights are NLA anyway, so it's no point. What MB need is a fixed demand of say 1000 headlights/lenses - how can that be materialized?
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All very valid points. I will leave it to the collective to respond, maybe some members here have some good contacts on key places at MB.
I had fully expected to have everything buttoned up and provide an update to you this past Friday but the 3D scanning provider was held up. I expect the raw scan to be completed today. I have attached the preliminary scans below.
Since the scanning is not complete, I cannot tell you how much the part will cost yet (but I am getting close!)
What I can share with you is:
- CNC will be the preferred method of manufacture for the simple reason that the other leading manufacturing method (Elastomeric molding) only produces a low number (40-50) badges before the mold needs to be recreated. This creates a step function of sorts to the cost which does not align to "higher volume purchased drives lower per unit costs."
- The material we will be using in the 6-axis CNC lathe is Aluminum 6061. It is possible to CNC plastic but it creates a lot of waste where the Aluminum is 100% recyclable. I also believe that using this material which will mimic the weight of the OEM badge has a few other benefits:
- Will not be mistaken for a NOS badge
- Easier to chrome plate
- More tolerant of deflection/breaking (by bending)
- The CNC process will not be able to capture the texture that @bunty660 highlighted in Post #62 above but we will achieve the texture by using a paint which has texture in it (the plan is to use paint to fill a channel under '500E')
- In order to accurately reproduce this badge, it is important to not create a "margin stacking:" scenario where the scan captures a manufacturing limitation and then adds its own margin of error on top of that. You can see this where the 500E meets the horizontal bar, there is a curved/scalloped feature coming off the bottom of each number/letter on both sides. It will be crucial to remove those so the lathe is using its own margin of error (0.031" in or 0.7874mm) when it cuts the material
Let me know if you have any questions. This is getting to the fun part.
Robert
I'm pleased with the choice of aluminum. It's a higher quality material than plastic and since it is not intended to be original I'm looking forward to having one in polished aluminum, whether I can get one pulled out before chroming or remove the chrome Myself. I appreciate you taking this project on.
drew
drew
2 emblems for me please. And I would really like to get one in pure alu. without chrome!
It would be great if you can get some pics of the machining.
Robert, I can post about this group buy on our Norwegian Mercedes-Benz Entusiastklubb forum and see if there is any interest. If the numbers are counting and the people want so, I can organise this for the Norwegians to make it simpler at your end.
It would be great if you can get some pics of the machining.
Robert, I can post about this group buy on our Norwegian Mercedes-Benz Entusiastklubb forum and see if there is any interest. If the numbers are counting and the people want so, I can organise this for the Norwegians to make it simpler at your end.
So the 3D scan has now been passed to the next step where an engineer will make modifications for it to be manufacturable. Essentially what this means is the scan has formatted to be understood by the CNC as well as cleared of features, artifacts, and/or imperfections not wanted to be reproduced in the final part. One thing which was noticed is that the original badge had a few thousandths of an inch of bend longitudinally. This probably occurred when the badge was removed from the trunk. We are taking that bend out.
Another thing which will be removed are remnants from the badge being an injection molded part. When an injection molded part is created, it is important for material thickness to not vary much so that the material hardens in the mold in just a few seconds before the mold opens up and the part drops out. Looking at the back of the mold, you can see there there are two areas which are there because the part is injection molded:
- First are the circles you see at 10 and 2 on the 0. This is where the pin which pumps material in to the mold is positioned. This circle can be taller when the part falls out of the mold and would just be trimmed in post production
- Second are cavities or what look like valleys (what the arrow is pointing to) that keep the thickness of the part in areas consistent
Since I realize that a lot of people have expressed interest without even seeing the final product let alone knowing how much it will cost, I thought it would be good to produce a 3D printed part, possibly paint it silver, and take a lot of photos next to the original badge. My hope is that I can give people an opportunity to scrutinize this product before investing in it.
One other note on this endeavor is that this is truly a volume-based pricing opportunity. If we collectively order 100, it will be cheaper on a per unit basis than if we purchase 50. However, anyone that is late to the party will have to buy from someone who purchased multiple because submitting a smaller order after this run is complete will be costly (perhaps even cost prohibitive).
I believe I will have the 3D printed part as well as notional per unit pricing by next weekend.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Robert
Again, as with the SLS reservoir group buy, I think it is a good idea to purchase more than is initially allotted to members who express desire to buy one. This is to accommodate people in the future who want to buy a badge, people here who totally missed this thread (there were a number of folks here who missed the SLS reservoir group buy until well after the fact), people who are either not members of this forum currently, or people who are current members who may need a badge in the future. I know it is extra money out of your pocket up front, but the extra units get snapped up pretty quickly when I have done group buys and purchased some extra units out of pocket. You can raise the price above the "group buy" price to compensate for your time/effort and storage of the extra parts, and to recoup your investment. Just a thought.
Bare Aluminium please
Bonjour @breizh500 ! En ce moment, je suis juste en train de compter le nombre de participants intéressés dans ce groupe et combien de badges ils aimeraient, je mettrai votre nom sur cette liste pour un badge. Je vous remercie!
Robert
More progress to report:
- The screen grabs below show the part in its final state for CNC manufacturing
- You can see that the first one shows the back of the badge which does not have the fillet (pronounced like "Fill it") features which were required for the original badge to maintain constant plastic thickness since it is an injection molded part.
- The removal of the fillets means the part:
- Will have more Aluminum 6061 for longitudinal rigidity but not add noticeable weight gain
- Will provide more surface area for the laser cut label to bond to
- Will clearly indicate this is a reproduction part
- The label material has been selected and is 3M DC 2008 (https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1081260O/dc2000.pdf) which has a thickness of 0.76mm and the cavity it will fill is 0.60mm. This means that the badge will sit proud of the trunk by 0.16mm.
- I have also ordered a 3D printed part for comparison purposes against the original badge. I expect that part to be delivered the early part of next week
- Submit STEP file for pricing in Aluminum 6061 (Done)
- Order 3D printed part for inspection (Done)
- Send the DXF file to @kwontumspeed for creating the label which will sit in the cavity. (Done)
- Obtain pricing for chroming the parts (In progress)
- Identify, source and price application of black painted stripe below 500E
- Take close up pictures of the original badge and 3D printed part back-to-back to show any differences
- Identify packaging for safe shipment to members of the Group Buy
- Perform final purchase call for the Group Buy
- Collect funding
- Place orders
- Fulfill
Robert
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[QUOTE = "Ntrepid, post: 217396, membre: 3543"]
Bonjour [USER = 9893] @ breizh500 [/ USER]! En ce moment, je suis juste en train de compter le nombre de participants intéressés dans ce groupe et combien de badges ils aimeraient, je mettrai votre nom sur cette liste pour un badge. Je vous remercie!
Robert
[/CITATION]
merci super !
Bonjour [USER = 9893] @ breizh500 [/ USER]! En ce moment, je suis juste en train de compter le nombre de participants intéressés dans ce groupe et combien de badges ils aimeraient, je mettrai votre nom sur cette liste pour un badge. Je vous remercie!
Robert
[/CITATION]
merci super !
The 3D printed part which I will use to show the accuracy of the reproduction against the original has shipped via FedEx 2Day Service. I should have it on Saturday and will post pictures immediately. Keep in mind that this will not be a chromed part but chroming does not add significant material thickness to the part itself.
This means that the only key components to pricing remaining are (a) chroming the piece, (b) application of the black stripe, and (c) the double sided label.
@500AMM & @195910 It would be great to coordinate with you on your respective regions to maximize the number of participants which will drive per unit costs lower (not to mention if I am able to send a number of badges in a single box).
For those of you in other parts of the world like @peets500, @rucraig, @500ESpain, and @topinhas, if there is a way for you to spread the word to your 036 countrymen, it would be much appreciated.
Robert
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Robert,
I've just posted about this on our Norwegian MBE forum (Mercedes-Benz Entusiastklubb forum);
www.mbentusiastklubb.no
The MBE club is running a parallel forum on Facebook but I've never been active there, but I guess someone will spread the news there as well. I've offered to organize this as a "sub-group-buy" for us Norwegians, but some people may order directly here anyway. I let you know when/if it starts counting.
I've just posted about this on our Norwegian MBE forum (Mercedes-Benz Entusiastklubb forum);
500E emblem reproduksjon
Hei. Deletilgangen til 124 har vært sterkt nedadgående de siste åra og for oss med 500E er vondt enda værre. Slitedeler som er felles med andre '90-talls MB modeller leveres det fortsatt litt av, men de spesifikke 500-delene er det kun et fåtall som fortsatt leveres. Jeg snakker da om originale d...
www.mbentusiastklubb.no
The MBE club is running a parallel forum on Facebook but I've never been active there, but I guess someone will spread the news there as well. I've offered to organize this as a "sub-group-buy" for us Norwegians, but some people may order directly here anyway. I let you know when/if it starts counting.
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I will try to up my badge numbers too and get people I know into the buy. But would like to get a handle on the approx costs first that's all.
I'm also happy to act as a 500E badge mule for UK members if it helps to ship me one package VS multiple ones across the pond
I'm also happy to act as a 500E badge mule for UK members if it helps to ship me one package VS multiple ones across the pond
Funny thing is I have always seen people facelifting their 500E but if I only had the option of an E500, I'd be interested in a facelift to a 500E as I like the grille more (maybe because it is the same on my W201).
Robert
Thank you! I hope to have pricing next week and then open up the ordering process.
Robert
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