Land Rover LR4 repairs

[gsxr]

In late November, our previously reliable LR4 died 4 miles down the road, stranding my wife in a cellular dead zone. Fortunately there were houses nearby with landlines. (Remember those? How quaint!) After getting towed home hours later, the engine would start in the morning, run for 3-5 minutes, then just shut off and not restart even many hours later. Same result every morning. The ONLY code stored was an unhelpful "Fuel pump A control circuit/open". The LR forum guys said to try swapping the fuel pump control relay first, which didn't cure it. Next was the fuel pressure sensor, nope, that wasn't it either. Fudge.

The only remaining plausible item was the fuel pump, located in the tank. Dropping the tank is not as fun as it sounds. Adding to the levity, the JLR FSM is atrocious. I thought Mercedes manuals were terse (and they can be, especially 90's and newer, and WIS) but JLR is positively terrible. Complicating things further, not many people have posted detailed DIY / How-To threads either on Land Rover forums, or videos on YouTube. There's a bunch of piecemeal info but nothing comprehensive for these particular jobs. Tons of info on the LR3 but that doesn't have the same fuel system as the LR4.

I find the lack of LR4 information odd, considering there were allegedly over 50k of the LR4 imported to the USA, and ~350k produced worldwide. Those are huge numbers. It seems many / most owners have repairs done at the dealer or indy shops. Maybe that will change as the truck ages. The LR4 was sold in USA from 2010-2016 model years, roughly similar to a W212 or X/W166, which are kinda new for DIY'ers.

Anyway, if you are bored and want to watch as GSXR pulls his hair out dealing with a British truck, here are some links for your enjoyment:

Main diagnostic discussion thread:
https://www.landroverworld.org/thre...00-6c-fuel-pump-a-control-circuit-open.45696/

Thread started by someone else with sort of, maybe, helpful info on tank removal:
https://www.landroverworld.org/thre...k-to-replace-the-fuel-pump-let-me-know.45128/

Replacing the pump after the tank was finally out of the truck:
https://www.landroverworld.org/threads/how-to-diy-replacing-lr4-in-tank-fuel-pump.45752/

TLDR: Turns out the electrical connector from the pump had signs of excess heat causing a bad connection, INSIDE THE TANK. A new pump and new flange (with pass-through electrical connector) cured it.

I'm sure the X166 would be more complicated, although the WIS procedures are probably better than JLR. (And, the M278 or M157 are nightmare motors, not sure if I'll go there someday.)

 

[gerryvz]

I am not a fan and never have been of Rover products. Electrical issues are pretty legendary, and go back probably longer than I have been alive (Google "curse of Lucas").

We looked at the "new" Range Rover just before it launched (it was on display at a Maryland concours event) several years back, and politely held our noses and passed on it. Nice truck, but everyone we've ever known who has owned a Rover product has rued they day the bought it.

We had some good friends when we lived in Portland with the original "classic" Range Rover -- he told me with a very straight face many times that the truck spent more time at the shop waiting for parts to be repaired, than it did being driven. I believed him, because I often saw the truck parked behind the fence at Land Rover Portland, which was just a few blocks away from my old haunt at MBI Motors.

We opted for the Lexus LX600 (aka "ROW" Toyota Land Cruiser J300 platform) this year, instead. I believe that in post-warranty days and over time, Toyota/Lexus products will prove to be more reliable than Rover, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, GM, and so forth.

 

[gsxr]

The LR4 has been really great overall. This was the first significant problem in 8 years of ownership (purchased Feb-2017). Maybe the engine being Jaguar and transmission from ZF helps! German powertrain infusion. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another LR4.

We'd like an X166 (GL550 / GLS550) as an upgrade to the LR4, but the aforementioned engine problems are a major obstacle. Jono refuses to own anything with a 278 or 157 engine, and that's sayin' somethin'... we'll be rolling in the Rover for the forseeable future.

 

[ace10]

My buddy has an LR3 and an LR4. He's going to unload the 3 pretty soon as it's been giving him some problems lately. He loves the 4. It was a one-owner creampuff when he snagged it last year. I actually really like my D2. Another one owner cream puff. They change hands for basically no money, so I was willing to take it on as a bad weather errand runner. Rather than another Land Cruiser, which are simply too pricey for that role.

My LR Indy did a bunch of work for me last winter. Caliper was toast. Couple of leaks. Nothing unusual for a 20 year old truck. But it was at least 50% more $$$ than equivalent work on a Toyota. Parts are very precious.

Regarding DIY: The D2 section on the landroverforums site (not the one gsxr is on) is very active compared to to the other models. Plenty of reference info and real-ish time help to be had. I do wonder if it's a function of the owner population being more inclined to know their vehicles or something else. I've done a bunch of one banana jobs on the truck with the help of just searching. My posting activity level there is mininimal.

Edit: Looks like LRworld is LR3/LR4 centric.

 

[daantjie]

I got scarred for life for anything UK car related by my dad's Leyland Austin constantly in the shop for some Lucas related malady. Ugh no thanks. You have to have some masochistic tendency to want to go through old Land Rover purgatory. New Landy's/RR are apparently not great but the Kardashian effect I think helped all high end "off road" brands like G Wagon and such. Prices in the stratosphere just to be keeping up with those air heads. Don't get it...

 

[nocfn]

I think the admission that you own a mobile phone (cell service ROFL) is curious.

 

[gerryvz]

I think the admission that you own a mobile phone (cell service ROFL) is curious.

I was thinking the same thing. But with the caveat that was the Gsxette, not the Gsxr.

By the way, that fuel pump module connector overheat is very very similar to the same issue that is commonly found on W211 models of all types, especially on the E55s. Except you can get at and replace BOTH the pump and sender modules on the 211s by accessing the tank top under the rear seat. But similar design as the 211, and similar issue.

 

[stinus]

Although not owning any landrover products currently (had 2 x defender 110's, disco II, disco sport) a channel I still follow on youtube is LR time.
Great content of a german couple showing a lot of DIY on LR3 and LR4 models.

 

[JC220]

I still have nightmares about JLR products. She had a 2017 Jag XE for 3 years and the thing gave no end of serious problems. Like full timing chain replacement, transmission out at 44k miles IIRC. £1400 ish bill. NOX sensor dead £680 for the part from Jag. Engine bay harness chaffing, took out airbag module car yet again immobile - £1200 bill.

Great looking car but unfortunately it spent way too much time on flatbed lorries to a Jag specialist.

Just went on and on, worst car my family has ever had and thankfully it's gone about 6 months ago and a GLC in its place. Never, ever again will a JLR product be on my street- period.

 

[ace10]

Worst car I ever owned was a wanna-be Jag... the X-type. Damn that thing was troublesome. Two major items were headlight harness failure and a ignition key assembly failure. Both of which were months-long waits for parts.

When was the last time you saw one of those POS on the road? Probably round about the same time you last saw an LR Freelander.

 

[gerryvz]

And that's my biggest issue with JLR vehicles -- their supply chain and repair parts warehousing in the US is far sub-par as compared to MB and probably even BMW. Lexus hasn't seemed to be an issue either, when I've custom-ordered some parts for our previous cars.

 

[gsxr]

Interesting stuff. I've not had any issues sourcing LR4 parts, however we bought the rig when it was 7 years old (possibly when the extended warranty ran out from the original owner?). So I have no idea if supply chain & availability is a bigger issue for newer, in-warranty JLR vehicles.

Overall there has not been a high volume of complaints or issues on the LR4 forum. Maybe the LR4 was an exception vs the usual JLR problem children? As noted earlier, the German powertrain may have helped a little, although Jag doesn't seem to have a great track record either. (Then again, MB is pretty bad in the mid-teens, as evidenced by the M278/M157 debacles).

Although we'd absolutely own another LR4, I'm not sure there's any other JLR product we'd consider. They screwed up with the LR5 design (confusingly badged "Discovery"), which changed from the timless boxy design, to swoopy curves. Problem is, the curves chopped the rear roofline, and made the 3rd row seating useless to full-size adults. The LR4 can comfortably fit 6-foot plus adults in the 3rd row, but the LR5 fits children and vertically-challenged adults only. Nope.

 

[alabbasi]

Jaguar................Making amateur mechanics out of owners since 1945. It's a better slogan than "Copy Nothing"

 

[TerryA]

Sometime before I purchased my 500E I came across a 90ish Jaguar convertible that was in perfect shape to look at. I can’t remember where I saw it but it was for sale cheap. It looked brand new for about $10K! WOW!! I know at the time Jaguar was owned by Ford and this model was in that timeframe. It was sold under “Ford Premier Auto Group” So what could go wrong it’s a Ford?

It really looked beautiful until I opened the hood (er bonnet for you British chaps). Anyway the horror of seeing what looked like a barbecue had be held for the entire RAMs football team under the hood got my immediate attention. There was nothing left of the top of the engine bay from fender to fender.

Still not deterred I went to a local Jaguar Dealer thinking I might be able to fix this beauty. So after a talk w/ the parts guy I changed my mind quickly. He reminded that probably all of the wiring would have to be replaced along with a large number of computers at about $4K a pop. Along with every piece of plastic engine parts including the intake manifold on I believe was a V12 engine.

Anyway, I found out later that these particular cars were prone to engine fires. That ended my infatuation with Jaguar and soon after Ford dropped the Jaguar brand and sold it to the Indian Firm that makes those 3 wheeled put puts you see in India.

Enough said. Probably TMI already.!

 

[alabbasi]

And that's my biggest issue with JLR vehicles -- their supply chain and repair parts warehousing in the US is far sub-par as compared to MB and probably even BMW. Lexus hasn't seemed to be an issue either, when I've custom-ordered some parts for our previous cars.

I don't know much about Land Rover as I've never owned one. I have owned a few Jags and have followed their history. My experience with working on both sides of the pond is that Europeans (including the British) like to demostrate how clever they are by making things very complicated. Americans demostrate how clever they are by making things simple.

When Jaguar introduced the XJ platform in 1968, it was a run away success and they had waiting lists for years. Terrible management resulted in supply chain issues that meant that cars left the factory unfinished or the production lines would be forced to stop which resulted in workers not being paid and then taking industrial action. This calimity eventually saw Jaguar on the verge of bankrupsy which is when they were rolled into BMC that became BL and then the Austin Rover group.

While Jaguar was profitable under Rover, they could not invest in development as the money would be vacuumed up to support the other brands in the lineup. The brands under the Rover group also refused to collaborate. Rover had a V8 engine, Triumph developed their own V8 engine (for the Stag), and Jaguar purposely built the XJ40 platform not to accept a V configuration engine in order to avoid using the Rover V8.

I think that their finest era follwing the time when Lyons ran the company was when Ford took over and introduced their production processes and purchasing power to allow Jaguar to make cars that people could live with. Many of the reliability problems were ironed out and the quality went up.

Of course this is all over and the lunatics are back to running the asylum.

From a supplychain perspective, I can't see this problem being limited to Jaguar. Mercedes with it's huge variety of models is also struggling and a friend who works on Sprinters is telling me that he has customers complaining that their commercial vehicles (as in the tool they use to make their living) have been sitting at dealers for months. The downstream impact for classic owers is that they're dropping parts support for our cars like hot potatoes.

The more I play with American iron from the 60's and 70's, the more I question why I mess around old British and German cars. The costs and complexity is really taking the fun out of them.

 

[gsxr]

The more I play with American iron from the 60's and 70's, the more I question why I mess around old British and German cars. The costs and complexity is really taking the fun out of them.

Yeah, but have you driven American iron from the 60's and 70's? They're ok as a weekend toy for shows or C&C a few times per year, but that's it. They don't stop, don't turn, and safety equipment consists of optional disc brakes (vs standard 4-wheel drums). Not usable for daily transportation. I see a lot of this stuff at the dragstrip but I have no interest in owning one, except for perhaps the 9-second, 150-mph rockets (which are rarely street legal).

 

[daantjie]

Clever marketing goes a long way I'm afraid. Look at the Mini brand for example. Positioning it as a hip brand for trendoids and product placement in for example the Austin Powers movie did wonders for them but the cars themselves are expensive dumpster fires

 

[Alphasud40]

Never owned anything from the British but I did have my hands in a XJS and a few Disco models. Didn’t mind the Disco models as they were pretty straight forward as compared to other euro models. I do however blame my pattern baldness on the XJS. So frustrating was the electrical system on that car and my hopes of making heads and tails of it with the FSM were squashed. Absolutely horrid but there may have been psychological component to that. That car had me beat.

 

[alabbasi]

Yeah, but have you driven American iron from the 60's and 70's? They're ok as a weekend toy for shows or C&C a few times per year, but that's it. They don't stop, don't turn, and safety equipment consists of optional disc brakes (vs standard 4-wheel drums). Not usable for daily transportation. I see a lot of this stuff at the dragstrip but I have no interest in owning one, except for perhaps the 9-second, 150-mph rockets (which are rarely street legal).

Yeah, I have a 68 Cadillac convertible that I drive regularly (and a 65 and 79 Lincoln that don't drive right now).

They're fit for purpose..... in that they're not horrible for long straight US roads where you cruise in a relative straight line for an extended period of time and park nose into a parking spot. Compared to a W108, yes my 68 Cadillac is comedically wobbly when pushed. Compared to a modern pickup truck or SUV? If you're used to driving a Land Rover, I don't think that it will take you long to adjust.

My only experience in driving a Land Rover was driving an early 90's Defender 110 about 30 years ago and that was bloody terrifying on the motorway.

 

[gsxr]

They're fit for purpose..... in that they're not horrible for long straight US roads where you cruise in a relative straight line for an extended period of time and park nose into a parking spot.

Yup - for that usage, they are cromulent. Still, the lack of safety equipment is a dealbreaker for me. Crumple zones were not yet a thing on domestics, even into the 80's, IIRC? Shoot, three-point belts weren't standard until maybe the late 70's!

Compared to a modern pickup truck or SUV? If you're used to driving a Land Rover, I don't think that it will take you long to adjust.

My only experience in driving a Land Rover was driving an early 90's Defender 110 about 30 years ago and that was bloody terrifying on the motorway.

If you've never driven an LR4, find one to take for a spin. They are shockingly competent to drive. The air suspension may help. When moving 700 miles away a few years ago, we made many 10-hour trips (each way), mostly with the cruise control set to 85-90mph. Zero drama at those speeds, even in crosswinds. It's also decent on twisty roads, for a 6000lb SUV! It's no 500E of course, but it's really good for a top-heavy truck.

And, the ride quality on sub-par roads is excellent. We've driven other SUV's that were a bouncy, jarring mess. Friends of ours have a 2015 Suburban that is awful by comparison, and they paid a LOT more than we did. Other friends have a slightly older Lexus SUV (late aughts?) that we drove in Yellowstone, one hour behind the wheel resulted in a verdict of "we'd never own one of these things".

I've not yet driven an X164 or X166 for comparison, but plan to eventually.

 

[gerryvz]

All I can say is that with any car/truck, depreciation tells you everything you need to know about how they are valued by consumers (i.e. "the market").

European and British marques tend to depreciate RAPIDLY, and the higher-end SUVs are no exception to this.

Funnily enough, I brought my wife's 2023 Lexus IS500 into the Lexus dealer at 0715 this morning to have the headlights re-aimed, as the driver's side headlamp wasn't (seemingly) throwing the beam pattern out far enough. They tested everything and said that both headlights were mis-aimed, and re-aimed them to factory specs. They gave me a full-on breakfast and whatever drink I wanted (I just had black coffee, but there were probably 30 choices of drinks). After telling me the car was being wrapped up, they then washed and cleaned the car. Cost for everything: $0.00.

During the 1.5 hours I was waiting in the lounge area, a young female sales associate came up to me and handed me a piece of paper with a number printed across the top. It was an offer for the nearly two-year-old IS500 (which has 11K miles on it) to buy it on the spot. I politely told her that this car is my wife's "unicorn" forever car (similar as my E500 has been to me) and that she would never even consider selling it, so not to go any further. I did tell her I'd put the piece of paper in front of my wife when I got home (predictably, she snorted out loud).


The car was ~$60K new (MSRP $58.3K) with the extras she got installed (factory BBS wheels and more), so I was surprised to see the offer was as high as it was. Of course, you know if they are offering $49K, they figure they can sell it profitably at $55K or more. That's not much less than MSRP.....for a car with 11.5K miles on it.

During the pandemic, Lexus was calling my wife monthly with offers for her 2017 IS350 (which had about 55K on it at the time) that were higher than we paid for the car in December 2016. Those days are long over, but it goes to show how much in demand Lexi are.

 

[alabbasi]

the lack of safety equipment is a dealbreaker for me. Crumple zones were not yet a thing on domestics, even into the 80's, IIRC? Shoot, three-point belts weren't standard until maybe the late 70's!

No doubt, those skinny roof pillars that give great visibility also tell you what will happen in a wreck. The only exception to this rule from the 70's is a Mercedes.

I believe you when you talk about how good an LR4 rides. But all that technology is also why LR has a reputation for expensive to own. Maybe a 10 year old Tahoe would have been a better example for me to give.