Looking at a 92 400E

[Gatorblue92]

Hey guys I'm looking at a 400E and I figured there would be a better response here than on PP. The car in question has 171k miles and looks to be in perfect cosmetic shape but has a few running issues. The seller says it has a hard time starting when it's cold and there is a battery drain which requires disconnecting the battery to keep it from going dead. What kind of issues could cause these two problems and could they be related? I'm very familiar with the W124 as I have two M103 powered cars currently.

 

[gsxr]

If the car has the cell phone option, try disconnecting the phone module in the trunk (driver side). Otherwise you'll need to trace down the drain with a meter.

Hard starting - need more specifics. Cranks fine but doesn't fire? Cranks too slow? Battery age/condition? Etc.

Neither would be a deal-killer for the right car/color/options/price. However I would recommend looking for a 94-95 E420 with heated seats and ASR, particularly since you live in an area that gets snow. The green E420 in CA looks pretty decent, check the 400E/E420 cars for sale section of the forum. Or maybe get that $7k 500E in VA...

 

[Gatorblue92]

I'm not sure about the cell option but I do know the battery is new. The seller took it to the dealer and they said something about a fuel pump relay. From the pictures I have seen it does have ASR based on the ABS module but I'm not sure about the heated seats. The seller recently bought the car but isn't a DIY owner so he is scared off by the repair estimates he got for the hard start issue. It's about a 2 hour drive to the car so I'm not sure if I'm going to check it out or not. The pictures make it look very nice though. It's a blue color with the parchment interior.

 

[gsxr]

The fuel pump relay is under the rear seat (passenger side) but it almost never, EVER fails. If there is a fuel delivery problem that is related to electrical, it's far more likely to be a failing LH module (~$100 used). Mechanical fuel delivery problems are more likely to be the regulator ($40), pumps ($100 each), or clogged filter (not likely, but you never know).

Get a photo of the wood console in front of the shift lever to check for heated seat switches. Or get the VIN and check the datacard. Looks like Midnight Blue? Interior is Palomino.

http://annapolis.craigslist.org/cto/4836603250.html

 

[Gatorblue92]

That's the car. Getting it would mean giving up my rusty 5 speed 300E though.

 

[gerryvz]

That's an AWESOME color combination. There's one of those exact combo 400Es here in one of the Houston LKQ yards.

 

[gsxr]

If it doesn't at least have ASR, I'd walk away. I won't own another W124 without ASR. It's a godsend on snow & ice. Plenty of other 034's with ASR (and bun warmers) available. This is a very nice, and pretty rare, color combo though.

After you own a 400E/E420 a bit, you won't miss the 300E much. The 5-speed may be nice, but the M103 is a dinosaur from the 1970's, IMO. The M119 was a decade ahead of its time. You might even get BETTER fuel economy with the M119.

Disclaimer: I've owned two 300E's and three E420's. Trust me on this...

 

[Stevester 500E]

That's an AWESOME color combination. There's one of those exact combo 400Es here in one of the Houston LKQ yards.

I second the commotion ! One of the best color combos. Only thing is that over time the blue tends to get a purple hue to it.
But Midnight blue with the peanut butter (palomino) colored leather is great looking!

 

[Gatorblue92]

WDBEA34E6NB733514 is the vin if anyone can pull the data card. My iPad is useless for the epc.

 

[gsxr]

Datacard and Autocheck attached. It's Midnight Blue (904) and has ASR (471), but no bun warmers.

Honestly, you'd probably be waaaaay ahead in the long run getting the green car in CA (click here) for low/mid $2k and paying for the $1k transport to the east coast. Lower miles, rust-free CA car, no mysterious electrical problems... well, probably not. Maybe.

 

[Gatorblue92]

Datacard and Autocheck attached. It's Midnight Blue (904) and has ASR (471), but no bun warmers.

Honestly, you'd probably be waaaaay ahead in the long run getting the green car in CA (click here) for low/mid $2k and paying for the $1k transport to the east coast. Lower miles, rust-free CA car, no mysterious electrical problems... well, probably not. Maybe.

Thank you so much! You make a excellent point about wanting a car with lower miles for a similar price but I prefer the pre 94 hood/headlights. Hmmm...

 

[8899]

but I prefer the pre 94 hood/headlights. Hmmm...

You won't like them after the sun has gone down.

 

[Gatorblue92]

You won't like them after the sun has gone down.

Euro headlights. I should've clarified that

 

[gerryvz]

Euro lights are not cheap.


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[gsxr]

... but I prefer the pre 94 hood/headlights. Hmmm...

That is definitely a personal preference thing. I like the 94-95 facelift myself.

Aesthetics aside, the 94-95 have much improved stereo systems which are plug+play upgradeable (91-93 is a nightmare to do properly), and all the 93-up engine improvements. As Greg noted, the 94-95 headlights are excellent; effectively equivalent to the OE Euros (note: the cheap aftermarket Euros from TYC/Depo are better than the stock 86-93 DOT's, but still not great). The pre/post facelift look is pretty similar, most people would not even notice. For a ±$2k car, this would be awfully low on my priority list. For a $20k pristine E500E, that might be a different discussion.

If you really want the pre-facelift appearance, I'd still recommend getting a 1993 version for the increase fuel economy (11:1 compression, reduced-weight internals). Not that the '92 is a bad car by any means.

 

[clarkz71]

That's an AWESOME color combination. There's one of those exact combo 400Es here in one of the Houston LKQ yards.

Pal-o-min-o

I knew you were a closet Palomino lover..........

If it doesn't at least have ASR, I'd walk away. I won't own another W124 without ASR.

Not this again..........ASR, take it or leave it.

I drove in NY winters just fine without ASR until I moved to FL in 88

After you own a 400E/E420 a bit, you won't miss the 300E much. The 5-speed may be nice, but the M103 is a dinosaur from the 1970's, IMO. The M119 was a decade ahead of its time. You might even get BETTER fuel economy with the M119.

Disclaimer: I've owned two 300E's and three E420's. Trust me on this...

Now this you have right.

Thank you so much! You make a excellent point about wanting a car with lower miles for a similar price but I prefer the pre 94 hood/headlights. Hmmm...

There's a man with good taste. Now you just need a MB sunshade to complete the look..........

Well, when the sun comes back for you polar vortex guys. .

 

[gerryvz]

That's "Clark0mino." Actually my very first MB (wife's 1992 300TE) was white over Clark0mino Tex.

Here's the blue/palomino 400E in the yard here. I scored a fair number of parts off of it, most recently the trunk badge to adorn my shop wall MB badge display....

 

[gerryvz]

The 5-speed may be nice, but the M103 is a dinosaur from the 1970's, IMO.

What about the M104? Tell us how it is !!!

 

[clarkz71]

Here's the blue/palomino 400E in the yard here. I scored a fair number of parts off of it, most recently the trunk badge to adorn my shop wall MB badge display....

Needs a hood pad............

What about the M104? Tell us how it is !!!

I heard they were underpowered...........

 

[8899]

Here's the blue/palomino 400E in the yard here. I scored a fair number of parts off of it, most recently the trunk badge to adorn my shop wall MB badge display....

Any value in that cam position sensor?

 

[gerryvz]

I heard they were underpowered...........

You mean in the same way that the 119.975 is underpowered compared to the 119.974, correct?

 

[gerryvz]

Any value in that cam position sensor?

Perhaps, but since the powertrain is still in place, I'm not expending the effort to try to snag it....

 

[clarkz71]

You mean in the same way that the 119.975 is underpowered compared to the 119.974, correct?

Not really, the M104 makes 217 hp and 195 ft lbs of torque

M119.975 makes 275, or 290 hp with a 92 LH module and 295 ft lbs

A difference of 73 hp

Now the M119.974 is strong, a best of 322 hp on the 92, 32 hp more then the 93-95 (975/92 LH) motor.

And over 100 ft lbs of torque over the M104

The 974 has a 50 ft lb avantage over the 975

Sadly, 92 400E owners are stuck with 268 hp, down 22 to the modded 93-95. Ironic that it's with the 92 module..........

So, in reality, both M119 cars are fun to drive and will leave the
M104 sedan driver far behind on the Autobahn.

 

[gerryvz]

You forgot to mention that the M104.996, as used in the 1994-1996 G320 (of which only 2,615 were manufactured, plus 120 G36 AMG models), was de-tuned to 210 HP from the 217 HP 104.992 as found in the sedans/wagons/coupes/cabrios.

REALLY underpowered !!!

 

[clarkz71]

G wagons are cool, they get a pass....

 

[Stevester 500E]

Get the C36 M104 and you won't be left behind on the Autobahn . . .

Not really, the M104 makes 217 hp and 195 ft lbs of torque

M119.975 makes 275, or 290 hp with a 92 LH module and 295 ft lbs

A difference of 73 hp

Now the M119.974 is strong, a best of 322 hp on the 92, 32 hp more then the 93-95 (975/92 LH) motor.

And over 100 ft lbs of torque over the M104

The 974 has a 50 ft lb avantage over the 975

Sadly, 92 400E owners are stuck with 268 hp, down 22 to the modded 93-95. Ironic that it's with the 92 module..........

So, in reality, both M119 cars are fun to drive and will leave the
M104 sedan driver far behind on the Autobahn.

 

[clarkz71]

Yes, the C36 should be able to stay in the draft, but not pass the 119.975

But now you need to bring in an AMG modified motor, just to compete with the pedestrian 400E

The AMG 3.6 M104 was rated at 280 horsepower (210 kW) at 5,750 rpm and 284 pound-feet (385 N·m) of torque at 4,000 rpm using the HFM engine management system. AMG later conceded that since the engine was hand modified, power outputs could vary slightly from 276 hp to 287 hp.

As I said above, with a simple LH module swap, the 93-95 119.975 makes
290 hp and over 300 ft lbs of torque.

A lot less work then the 3.6 liter AMG modified M104

 

[Gatorblue92]

A bit of a follow up... The car is still available but the seller said it will not stay running because of a wonky fuel pump relay. Does this sound reasonable? I know it was mentioned that these are not known for failing. There is also the parasitic battery drain. With the issues it sounds like a fixer upper but the cosmetics are in good shape. I'm torn but the 300E has started overheating a bit and with the rust issues it's about to become my parts car so I will need something to drive. I also have a 300TE but I will only have a old Benz as a DD if I have two of them

 

[Gatorblue92]

Going to see it this weekend. If it checks out I will likely be bringing it home.

 

[Gatorblue92]

Went and drove the car this morning. I am going to buy it but it does need some work. The fuel pump relay is definitely bad. You can hear and feel it clicking. I also checked the upper harness and its made in October of 91 so I will be needing one of those too. Cosmetically the car is nearly perfect. The paint is very glossy and there is no rust I can see. I crawled under the car and didn't see anything amiss and the jack holes are in great shape. I would imagine the battery drain is related to the original harness. Hopefully by next weekend it will be in my driveway.

 

[Klink]

Went and drove the car this morning. I am going to buy it but it does need some work. The fuel pump relay is definitely bad. You can hear and feel it clicking. I also checked the upper harness and its made in October of 91 so I will be needing one of those too. Cosmetically the car is nearly perfect. The paint is very glossy and there is no rust I can see. I crawled under the car and didn't see anything amiss and the jack holes are in great shape. I would imagine the battery drain is related to the original harness. Hopefully by next weekend it will be in my driveway.

The relay clicking is caused by the fuel injection (LH) module. Some electrolytic capacitors inside of it have gone bad. There is a cheap and easy repair that you can search on this board.
Congrats on the purchase.

 

[gsxr]

Ditto what Klink said... now go back and read post #4 again...

 

[Gatorblue92]

Coming soon to a driveway near me...

 

[Trae]

Congrats on your purchase!
You will love the M119 engine.

 

[Gatorblue92]

Well looks like I'm not getting it after all... The guy I was going to buy it from wrecked it today. I'm officially bummed.

 

[gerryvz]

I think this is a good omen and a strong hint for you to buy an E500E


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[Gatorblue92]

I think this is a good omen and a strong hint for you to buy an E500E


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Lol. It's most likely fixable but I'm not interested any more. A 500E is tempting but a bit out of my price range.

 

[gsxr]

Well looks like I'm not getting it after all... The guy I was going to buy it from wrecked it today. I'm officially bummed.

Nooooooooo! Save the Midnight Blues...

 

[Hollybrook]

To bad - it was a nice looking car. Any after photos?

 

[Gatorblue92]

So the story is the seller hit a patch of ice and then slammed into and over a curb. I think the body of the car is okay but the front suspension at least is trashed. Both of these pictures are of the front wheels. One is pointing straight and the other isn't and the one that is has been pushed back into the fender. I thought about still picking it up but I would rather just get another one with no current damage. I was also going to need to replace the harness and LH module so this may have saved me from a money pit.

 

[colombian_gringo]

I thought about still picking it up but I would rather just get another one with no current damage. I was also going to need to replace the harness and LH module so this may have saved me from a money pit.

I think you made a good choice. There are plenty of clean examples out there.

Here are a few more that are currently available...

http://scranton.craigslist.org/cto/4846954282.html
http://nh.craigslist.org/ctd/4850049911.html
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/cto/4868412868.html
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...&mmt=[MB[E420[]][]]&listingId=387573281&Log=0

 

[gsxr]

So the story is the seller hit a patch of ice and then slammed into and over a curb. I think the body of the car is okay but the front suspension at least is trashed. Both of these pictures are of the front wheels. One is pointing straight and the other isn't and the one that is has been pushed back into the fender. I thought about still picking it up but I would rather just get another one with no current damage. I was also going to need to replace the harness and LH module so this may have saved me from a money pit.

Very sad to see... but it's an excellent example of why you should always have a set of true snow tires (either studded, or studless) if you live in the snow belt, which includes the entire northeast. $400 in snow tires may have saved the car, unless the driver was driving way too fast for conditions. So-called all-season tires do not work on ice or snow.

 

[gsxr]

http://scranton.craigslist.org/cto/4846954282.html
http://nh.craigslist.org/ctd/4850049911.html
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/mld/cto/4868412868.html
http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...&mmt=[MB[E420[]][]]&listingId=387573281&Log=0

Shame that none have ASR. The last one is Sapphire Black, pretty rare bird...! Great undercarriage photos, nice to see a well-done listing.

 

[colombian_gringo]

The last one is Sapphire Black, pretty rare bird...! Great undercarriage photos, nice to see a well-done listing.

That last one is offered by dealership local to me. They are a Lotus dealership that has kind of made a niche in interesting used cars. This is the third or fourth 400E/E420 I've seen them list for sale. They buy them from all over the country and then offer them for sale at their dealership. When I was in the market for one, I saw one listed on their website and went to look at it. They had a number of 124's and 126's on the lot. The E420 I went to see was still on it's way in from California and was sold before it even reached their dealership.

http://www.parkavelotus.com/used-inventory/index.htm?start=0&

 

[samiam44]

Have you owned a mb before?

 

[Gatorblue92]

Have you owned a mb before?

Currently own a 77 240D, 87 300E and 91 300TE. Sold two other W123's and another W124. I know exactly what I'm getting into

 

[Tiger Core]

Thanks for all the useful posts and tips here. I'm always learning. I didn't know about the relay below the rear seat- passenger side.
I originally bought my 1993 400E for my wife. It was a budget purchase- body although blemished- no rust- and structurally superb.
I really shouldn't have spent money on it- but something about this car- makes me do so. I've had the trans rebuilt (By Transwerks in MI), got a new Viscous clutch fitted, I rebuilt the ETA myself. Just needed cleaning - wiring was fine. Since changing the MAF, and lambda sensor the fuel economy is very good (20-21 mpg going to work- 25 mpg highway).
I just changed the blower motor and wen to Euro lights (DEPOS)- I really shouldn't have- but I couldn't resist.
Although it has little to no rust I've injected cavity wax all over for protection. The car looks tatty in places due to paint blemishes and slight dents.

Got new bushes and shocks and strut top mounts.


It has ASR- I haven't used the car in the snow much- but I'll try and see how it drives. I have blizzaks I'll fit. I guess it's not worth me selling it.

I know this car will drive forever- guess I'll just have it as a sort of budget tough little V8 Taxi or poor mans 500E

 

[Gatorblue92]

So this car getting wrecked may be a blessing. I found a 93 locally tonight which I may end up bringing home tomorrow if I can get it cheap enough. It sounds like the paint is faded but the harness has been replaced and it only has 123k miles with lots of service records. Silver exterior with black interior. Not my first choice but it's a 93.

 

[Gatorblue92]

So this car has resurfaced on Craigslist again for 1200 obo and I'm thinking about making an offer. The current owner hasn't driven it much but he said he fixed the front suspension issues from the wreck. He said the car has a bent arm on the rear end but it tracks straight. Not sure how that's possible. I was smitten with this car back in January and I'm nearly over my 5 speed wagon issues.

If it's needed is the rear subframe from an 87 compatible with the 034? I have my doubts but I happen to have one sitting in my garage.

 

[gsxr]

If it's needed is the rear subframe from an 87 compatible with the 034? I have my doubts but I happen to have one sitting in my garage.

NO, the 6-cyl subframes are different. The 034 and 036 subframes were beefed up for the V8 power. Contact David Hendy, he's not far from you, I bet he'll have an 034 subframe available pretty cheap...