Looking for a full respray. What questions to ask?

[PJmak]

I plan on taking my car in somewhere for a full repaint(don't know where yet).

This is my 98 c43 in Imperial Red.

I am always skeptical when taking any of my cars anywhere here in California. For those who have gone through this process, what are some of the things you wish you asked the shop before the job was done? Any regrets or bad experiences?

I want a high quality job and I expect to pay for it so that's fine.

Should I expect them to complete the job flawlessly(assuming its a higher end job)?

Should I tell them things like "hey there might be some waviness or small dents on some doors, can you make sure those are perfectly straight? Things of this sort you know.

Is it safe to assume most higher end shops look into things like this?

I never had a whole car repainted before. How should I approach a shop about it in a place where most businesses are just looking to do the job as quick as possible and make as much money as they can. ,

Im almost willing to pay double just to have someone take good care of my car and treat it like their own.

 

[gsxr]

I'd start by only talking with shops that use BASF/Glasurit or Sikkens and go from there. That alone may reduce your options by 90%.

 

[LWB250]

Do you expect them to disassemble parts of the car, or mask around them? That makes a huge difference in the quality of the job, but also adds to the cost. If you're even marginally handy you can do a lot of it yourself and save some $$.

When I prepare to have a car painted, I remove EVERYTHING I can. Trim, door handles, windlace, door sills, headlights, taillights, badges, etc., etc. Under some circumstances I've been known to hire a glass guy to remove the rear window and windshield at the body shop, and reinstall them with new seals.

I second @gsxr's suggestion about paint brands. Few shops use them and know how to properly apply them. The ones who do are artisans.

Dan

 

[PJmak]

I will remove everything by my self but the problem is....few shops i mentioned this to say it wont cost any less. This is how bad California business are. Freaking gypsies man I'm sick of it.

Saving someone hours of labor wont reduce the price of their service. Makes no sense.

 

[PJmak]

I'd start by only talking with shops that use BASF/Glasurit or Sikkens and go from there. That alone may reduce your options by 90%.

I believe you mentioned this a while back. So far I have had no luck finding any shops that do but I havent checked too many.

 

[gsxr]

I will remove everything by my self but the problem is....few shops i mentioned this to say it wont cost any less. This is how bad California business are. Freaking gypsies man I'm sick of it. Saving someone hours of labor wont reduce the price of their service. Makes no sense.

They are more interested in profit. An honest shop may give you at least a small price break.

The advantage to YOU removing the parts, is you know it's done right, and that it was done at all. Lazy shops will mask anything they deem not worth the trouble of removing (or if they don't know how). Incompetent shops will break things that may be irreplaceable. Do it yourself and you have nobody to blame if it goes wrong, lol...

I believe you mentioned this a while back. So far I have had no luck finding any shops that do but I havent checked too many.

Try searching on the BASF and Sikkens websites, to find local wholesalers or shops that use their products. Otherwise you'll be calling every paint shop in the yellow pages and all of them telling you why DuPont is just as good, at least for the first two weeks.

 

[7delta]

If they don't give you a break on cost, it just shows that they weren't going to take things off to begin with.

 

[Jlaa]

Everyday Insurance work is usually much, much more profitable for body shops than dealing with picky picky enthusiasts who have super high standards and further want to reduce the total bill by doing disassembly / reassembly themselves. A lower total bill means reduced opportunity to increase margins. Its just the way it is........ running a business.

 

[TerryA]

@PJmak, There has to be a good paint shop in the Sacramento area. Maybe you could find a good painter by asking some MB Club members in your area who they have used. Some Indy shops in your area could probably recommend a good painter also. Find out where the Mercedes Dealer sends their cars for paint work. Some dealers subcontract their work. As far as finding the BASF/Glasurit or Sikkens paint. I'm with gsxr check online for a vendor. You could possibly purchase the paint yourself and give it to the paint shop.

You can always ask for a discount for doing the disassembly. Regardless, you should take everything possible off the car yourself whether or not you get a discount. If the door jambs get painted the rubber should come out if possible. The more stuff the painters mask off the more you will dislike the final product. You will be finding all kinds of flaws in their masking.

Also, every ding or dent should be gone over with the painter. Use a high intensity light down the side of all panels to find any minor dings that you want removed. Circle them with some kind of marker and take pictures to show the painter. Have 2 copies of the pics printed give the painter a copy and you keep the second set. Once they start sanding all of your marks will be gone.

I have no idea what you expect to pay but if you look long enough you can probably find someone who will give you a great job at a reasonable price.

Just some food for thought.

Good Luck

 

[outrbnks]

It took me about a year to find a good shop that would actually do it right. I used all the suggestions seen in the above posts as well, including Glasurit. Don't rush it, take your time finding the right shop that does quality work. In California, there has to be dozens of shops doing quality paint jobs on older MBs, and I would have no problem driving a longer distance to get the job done right. Even if you had to flat bed it to a far away location, then flat bed it back, depends on your motivation for quality work. After much debate I went with full gloss monotone, figuring it's rather easy to respray bumpers and cladding to return it to factory two-tone. The pics below are from last year.....Good Luck

 

[gsxr]

You may find that none of the larger, high-volume shops (including chains) will want to mess with it - for the exact reasons @Jlaa mentioned. They make a ton of money doing mediocre work for insurance claims on newer vehicle fender-benders. They don't want to have to do top-notch work for a critical-eyed owner. You may find that a small shop that mostly does custom/show cars is more likely to meet your requirements. But it might cost double.

 

[Ntrepid]

@PJmak I think you may be looking for the wrong thing. Paint shops who do insurance work are geared towards volume (think assembly line). You may need to look for a restoration shop. They will appreciate the fact you are removing the parts and will have access to the Glasurit/Sikkens paint you need.


Robert

 

[Stevester 500E]

Make sure they use window rope, so the spay under the rear widow rubber seal.

 

[Kyiv]

Everyday Insurance work is usually much, much more profitable for body shops than dealing with picky picky enthusiasts who have super high standards and further want to reduce the total bill by doing disassembly / reassembly themselves. A lower total bill means reduced opportunity to increase margins. Its just the way it is........ running a business.

Pjmark says he's willing to pay, I'm guessing the issue was with their attitude: "wat u need?", "huh??", "nuuhhh, no", "bye-uuh".

 

[Jlaa]

Pjmark says he's willing to pay...

I re-read the original post and indeed you are right! Below:

Im almost willing to pay double just to have someone take good care of my car and treat it like their own.

@PJmak, I remember I had my Citroen repainted 20 years ago in the midwest. I removed everything and reinstalled everything. At the time, it cost me 6K, in the midwest. If you're willing to pay double the "going rate" here on the west coast, I would SWAG the costs to be 20K+. Not sure if that's accurate --- others may know better.

 

[TimL]

I re-read the original post and indeed you are right! Below:


@PJmak, I remember I had my Citroen repainted 20 years ago in the midwest. I removed everything and reinstalled everything. At the time, it cost me 6K, in the midwest. If you're willing to pay double the "going rate" here on the west coast, I would SWAG the costs to be 20K+. Not sure if that's accurate --- others may know better.

I went to a “boutique” paint shop here in the Seattle area which mainly does full dismantle type of restorations on old Porsche and the work these dudes do is stunning, but he quoted me $30k for a job that would have been very similar in scope to what @Skikar is doing with his car right now. This would have included all the disassembly and assembly. Not a very good return on invest to my mind, especially since my car’s paint is still somewhat decent. Good luck with your search

OWNER - Skikar | Owners and Their Cars

Hi I'm not going to bear metal because the car is very good for rust When the car was in Japan someone painted the roof hood and the trunk but the quality of paint job was not very good and the front bumper has som scratches.

www.500eboard.co

 

[Bogeyman]

My 350SL's original owner was an elderly lady who tended to bump into things then take it to the dealer to fix.
It had 3 areas where the repair was not done correctly. I removed all trim and stripped all paint back to bare metal.
The areas of slight damage could have been taken care of by a dent guy in 1-2 hours. No rust - LA car.
I paid $12K to have it painted - 10 years ago in the Midwest. Excellent result, it still looks great.

 

[gsxr]

Might be worth paying transport to and from this MidWest paint shop I keep hearing about...

 

[outrbnks]

You may find that none of the larger, high-volume shops (including chains) will want to mess with it - for the exact reasons @Jlaa mentioned. They make a ton of money doing mediocre work for insurance claims on newer vehicle fender-benders. They don't want to have to do top-notch work for a critical-eyed owner. You may find that a small shop that mostly does custom/show cars is more likely to meet your requirements. But it might cost double.

That was exactly the scenario I found here in downstate NY, I ended up getting only two quotes from small shops that take their time and care about their reputation. The big name shops I thought would be the best, didn't even want to discuss, they all said we only do insurance work on new cars...
The quotes I got were tentative as well, depending upon what they found as they took it apart, fortunatey the guy was very honest and surprised they was no rust anywhere and only a few small surface dents fron car doors etc. and they all came out with dentless paint removal.. so i had hardly any extra work added to the bill. I had them install my euro preface lights, the young kid assembling the car got extremely excited when he got the job to install them, and he knew all about the wiring/connector change before hand. Long story shorter, a small quality driven shop is the ticket..good luck

 

[LWB250]

Bring it down here to Tampa...

I have a guy in Brandon, FL, who has a production shop (insurance) but is also the go-to guy for all the local customs, hot rods and race cars. If I took the E420 to him on a flatbed with literally everything but the glass out of it, he would do all the prep and shoot the car with Sikkens for $5k.

I would also have to wait until he could get to it. It's one of those places where you don't ask when it will be done, you drop the car off and wait for a phone call. It's all based on what kind of volume he's got going through the production shop. Of course, he'll do it as a production job if you want, but you'll pay a premium of maybe 50% or more, depending on the complexity of the job.

I wish there were still places like the one who did my 1970 VW convertible restoration in Sheboygan, WI.

William Krueger, who was the great grandfather of the Ron Krueger who worked on my VW, opened a wagon works in Sheboygan in 1895. Ron continued to run his auto body shop until the late 90s, I believe. He did production work, but was the only body shop in town who would even consider working on my VW for anything other than a straight production job. I cut a deal where he had the car for an unlimited amount of time and he charged me $20/hour. Final bill? 300+ hours and two years. Yeah, that was (gulp!) a big bill to swallow, but he and his assistant did a complete pan-off restoration of that car. It was as good if not better than when it came off the production line in Wolfsburg(?)

Ron was a true artist and very meticulous. I went to a well known VW restoration shop in Manassas, VA and watched them prepare a convertible body for removal from the pan and documented it with photographs. I took over 200 photos back to Paul and he spent a great deal of time reviewing them and building all the spreaders necessary to weld into the body so it didn't turn into a taco when they took it off the pan. It was an amazing thing to watch this guy work.

William Krueger Wagon Works



Ron Krueger





Dan

 

[mikeym]

Bring it down here to Tampa...

I have a guy in Brandon, FL, who has a production shop (insurance) but is also the go-to guy for all the local customs, hot rods and race cars. If I took the E420 to him on a flatbed with literally everything but the glass out of it, he would do all the prep and shoot the car with Sikkens for $5k.

I would also have to wait until he could get to it. It's one of those places where you don't ask when it will be done, you drop the car off and wait for a phone call. It's all based on what kind of volume he's got going through the production shop. Of course, he'll do it as a production job if you want, but you'll pay a premium of maybe 50% or more, depending on the complexity of the job.

I wish there were still places like the one who did my 1970 VW convertible restoration in Sheboygan, WI.

William Krueger, who was the great grandfather of the Ron Krueger who worked on my VW, opened a wagon works in Sheboygan in 1895. Ron continued to run his auto body shop until the late 90s, I believe. He did production work, but was the only body shop in town who would even consider working on my VW for anything other than a straight production job. I cut a deal where he had the car for an unlimited amount of time and he charged me $20/hour. Final bill? 300+ hours and two years. Yeah, that was (gulp!) a big bill to swallow, but he and his assistant did a complete pan-off restoration of that car. It was as good if not better than when it came off the production line in Wolfsburg(?)

Ron was a true artist and very meticulous. I went to a well known VW restoration shop in Manassas, VA and watched them prepare a convertible body for removal from the pan and documented it with photographs. I took over 200 photos back to Paul and he spent a great deal of time reviewing them and building all the spreaders necessary to weld into the body so it didn't turn into a taco when they took it off the pan. It was an amazing thing to watch this guy work.

William Krueger Wagon Works

View attachment 126499

Ron Krueger

View attachment 126500
View attachment 126501


Dan

Nice! Do you still that VW?

 

[LWB250]

Nice! Do you still that VW?

I wish.

That was the early 1990s, before eBay, Bring a Trailer, whatever. Auto Trader was still a weekly paper. Sold it at a substantial loss when I relocated to Florida in 1996, then a few months after that, the new owner called me in a panic because a UPS truck hit them in the right rear quarter. So hard it sheared off the right rear wheel. They wanted to try and find someone to fix it as their insurer was going to total it.

That was my (very important) Learning Experience when it came to "restoring" cars.

What started out as a $400 "bargain" ended up being an $11,000+ restoration. It taught me the valuable lesson that it's ALWAYS cheaper and easier to buy the very best example of a car you can afford than to buy a cheap one and restore it. Unless you're doing it as a labor of love and intend to keep it forever, you'll always be upside down.

 

[PJmak]

A lot of great advice here. Thank you everyone.

I definitely don't want to spend 20-30k on a paint job, just throwing that out there first. I don't need it to be SEMA ready but that would certainly be nice (wont happen within my budget)

I just want a paint job that'll last and that doesn't show sand marks and imperfections underneath.......so by all standards what you'd call a normal factory like paintjob.

Keep in mind the paint finish on these old mercs........while durable, It still had orange peel. Also as it turns out the clear coat on these older cars tends to fail. I wouldn't think it would be hard or too expensive to improve on a factory w202 paintjob. I just want to be able to close inspect my car and not find anything odd.

I had some cheap paint work done before. I was left with hazy finish, sand marks showing through, cracks in paint and so on. If I pay someone up to 10k and see anything like that Im going to be really mad and disappointed.

 

[PJmak]

@PJmak I think you may be looking for the wrong thing. Paint shops who do insurance work are geared towards volume (think assembly line). You may need to look for a restoration shop. They will appreciate the fact you are removing the parts and will have access to the Glasurit/Sikkens paint you need.


Robert

Exactly what I was told by one of the biggest shops in town I spoke with.

They would be willing to take on the job but would be a wait and double charge since they do mostly insurance jobs.


What sort of paint did you use on the red c36 when you had it done? I remember you disclosing the cost of that job. I would be comfortable paying the same. Are you happy with the work they did?

 

[Ntrepid]

The shop I used for the C36 used Sikkens.

Side story. The guy who I used had a business which did insurance and restoration work. Caliber came in and offered him a ton of money for it and they would become a tenant as he owned the building. Near the end of the transaction, he realized they kept referring only to the insurance side of the business. He asked if they were interested in the restoration piece and they said he could keep it (and it did not change the price of the purchase).

So the benefit I got was that he is essentially retired and takes his time to do a restoration properly. I also only pay him for his T&M but he does not have to pay the mortgage with it. My car has been with him for a while but I’ve also gotten free storage out of the deal ;-)


Robert

 

[Jlaa]

For what it is worth, to @Ntrepid's implication that his painter/bodyman selects his customers (as opposed to the other way around) when I first received my car and had a little bit of roof corrosion addressed, I had the paintwork done by a big paint shop called "European Collision Center" --- they do a lot of insurance work on late model "flashy brand" cars like Porsche, MB, Audi, Tesla, etc. They are very much a "production line" and the way they organize the shop and the process they use to crank insurance work is very impressive. It is apparent that they do a lot of volume and that they are optimized to handle that volume with a time-tested process.

European Collision also takes some work that is not insurance work, but they are picky on that kind of work --- I definitely feel like they are quite selective on the kinds of cars / owners they wanted to undertake on the non-insurance side of the business (pay out of pocket).

What helped my case is that one of the foreman type guys at the shop went gaga over the sight of a red w124 500E, as he was clearly a big fan of these cars. When I dropped off my car, he also very proudly showed me how they were in the process of a full teardown / repaint of a pedestrian 300E, shown below. Frankly I was amazed at the primo-condition of this 300E, and he mentioned to me that this was a $40K job to re-do the 300E, even though the car was worth nowhere near that amount. The car had a lot of sentimental value to the customer and the implication was this kind of work was the "customer profile / potential for word of mouth references" that they liked doing for the non-insurance side of the house.

You can tell that they tried to get everything perfect on the 300E --- even the passenger side mirror boot looks fresh and the grille shell is gleaming. The whole front end looks new.

 

[gsxr]

300E... forty... kay...

 

[Kyiv]

300E... forty... kay...

It's a sure sign that were living at the peak of decadent times.

 

[thebrinksman]

can anyone recommend a good paint shop in SoCal?

 

[PJmak]

Found a local shop that uses Glasurit and they said roughly for a full respray anywhere from 12-17K but they'll give me a more accurate estimate after looking at my vin number.

The guy also told me I could potentially cut the cost in half if I bring the car in stripped down of all trim and rubbers or whatever else usually has to come off during prep and paint.


I definitely am not ready to paint the car right now or by the end of the year but at least I found a place that's willing to work with me. I passed by their shop before many times and I've seen some high end cars there.


I figured anywhere under 10k for a nice paintjob with buff and cut(which he said they do) is doable for me.

 

[dionphaneuf]

Nice, are you able to share the name as if memory serves you aren't too far from the Bay Area? I'd be curious to know their rates just to do some bumpers/rockers/trim that I've removed from another car. Maybe $3k?

 

[PJmak]

No worries.

This is the name and contact info.

EXCELLENCE AUTO COLLISION CENTER, INC.​

4443 Auburn Blvd # A, Sacramento, CA 95841

+19163334799

 

[dionphaneuf]

For reference, they quoted $2400 for respraying the bumpers and rockers on this project I'm looking at, although it was a bit of an estimate as the vehicle wasn't in their system. Curious to hear about your experience @PJmak . Did you think of looking in Nevada at all for quality/cost reasons? I'd imagine in addition to just being cheaper their environmental restrictions aren't as harsh.

 

[masayoshi]

I run a body shop in Japan.
Since it is translation software, the text may be strange. sorry.
European cars in the 90's have small cracks in the paint as they get older.
In that case, crack patterns will appear on the surface over time unless the paint is completely removed. Please contact the body shop in advance.
If there are no cracks, it does not need to be completely peeled off.
If there are small cracks and you paint without peeling, everything will be wasted.

 

[PJmak]

Do you suggest they sand it down to metal then? Are the cracks in clear or the basecoat?

 

[PJmak]

For reference, they quoted $2400 for respraying the bumpers and rockers on this project I'm looking at, although it was a bit of an estimate as the vehicle wasn't in their system. Curious to hear about your experience @PJmak . Did you think of looking in Nevada at all for quality/cost reasons? I'd imagine in addition to just being cheaper their environmental restrictions aren't as harsh.

Id be willing to look for a shop in surrounding states. Well see what kind of estimate they give me here

 

[masayoshi]

Do you suggest they sand it down to metal then? Are the cracks in clear or the basecoat?

The crack is a primer on the iron plate.
I misunderstand that the cracks disappeared when the transparent layer was scraped.
The primer below is actually cracked, so even if you apply new paint, the paint will stretch over time and the cracked pattern will reappear.
Before it cracks, you can prevent it by painting it with the latest weather resistant paint (transparent).
However, if there are already cracks, there is no choice but to remove them completely.
If you don't want to peel it off completely, using an epoxy-based surfacer will make the pattern a little harder to see.
That is not perfect either.

 

[masayoshi]

Although the cost is high, removing the paint completely from the iron plate, applying an epoxy-based surfacer, and then applying a urethane-based surfacer on top of it will have the same or better rust prevention effect as galvanized steel sheet. ..

 

[VT Blue]

The crack is a primer on the iron plate.
I misunderstand that the cracks disappeared when the transparent layer was scraped.
The primer below is actually cracked, so even if you apply new paint, the paint will stretch over time and the cracked pattern will reappear.
Before it cracks, you can prevent it by painting it with the latest weather resistant paint (transparent).
However, if there are already cracks, there is no choice but to remove them completely.
If you don't want to peel it off completely, using an epoxy-based surfacer will make the pattern a little harder to see.
That is not perfect either.

This, too, is what I've heard. Every place I've gone to -- with my failed clear coat -- has essentially said that if you want to do it "right" you need to remove it all down to bare metal, and then do a quality prep and paint. Cost estimates have been $20K+. Have not squeezed the trigger.

 

[PJmak]

Damn

 

[PJmak]

Ill bring the car in to the shop and have the guy look at it and see what he things. We didnt discuss the current state of my paint at all

 

[PJmak]

I thought about this and honestly its hard to believe. It just sounds like a scheme a paint shop would try to play on you.

All c43s have been painted the same in the same factory and paint and clear issues is not really a known problem on these...... unless its a red color.

Pay attention to older RED cars on the street regardless of the brand of car, they all have cracked clear coat. My sister has a red c230 W202 and it almost completely shed its clear coat. Hood was repainted like ten years ago and it still looks normal.

Same color code as my c43

 

[PJmak]

Got a response back.



"Here is the estimate to repaint the C43. This contains NO body work repairs and assumes the car is ready for prep/priming. No removal of items has been input."