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M119.96x 119.97x intake manifolds different ?
- Thread starter Maui
- Start date
Re: Bolt on performance exhaust for the 500e (testing waters)
Nope. Porsche didn't make any changes to the engine.
Nope. Porsche didn't make any changes to the engine.
Re: Bolt on performance exhaust for the 500e (testing waters)
You probably did read it but it's not correct. I think the confusion came about because the M119 changed from CIS to LH when it was put in the 500E. Porsche didn't specify this change, MB made this change for all M119 engines although the 500E was the first model to get this engine.
You probably did read it but it's not correct. I think the confusion came about because the M119 changed from CIS to LH when it was put in the 500E. Porsche didn't specify this change, MB made this change for all M119 engines although the 500E was the first model to get this engine.
Re: Bolt on performance exhaust for the 500e (testing waters)
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EDIT: The modified (longer) intake runners used on the 500E over the CIS-E injected version of the M119 as used in the 500SL resulted in an additional 22 lb-ft of torque. For the record, Porsche had nothing to do with the design/specs/production/tuning of the M119 engine. They just installed the engines that MB sent them across town, into the 500E/E500 bodies.
I believe the 500E variant of the LH 119 has slightly different intake runners/manifold than other variants as used in the 129 & 140.
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EDIT: The modified (longer) intake runners used on the 500E over the CIS-E injected version of the M119 as used in the 500SL resulted in an additional 22 lb-ft of torque. For the record, Porsche had nothing to do with the design/specs/production/tuning of the M119 engine. They just installed the engines that MB sent them across town, into the 500E/E500 bodies.
Re: Bolt on performance exhaust for the 500e (testing waters)
I believe this is correct. The change was for the M119.960 related to the previous M117. (Or less likely, the change from M119.96x CIS-E, to M119.97x LH).
Nope. The 129/140 versions all share the same intake manifolds for the same displacement engine. The exhaust manifolds are different between 124/129 and 140.
Re: Bolt on performance exhaust for the 500e (testing waters)
To summarize: the intake of the M119 as used in the early (CIS-E) M119 in the R129 is very definitely different than the intake used on the LH M119.97X in the 1992 500E (and 129 and 140). I think you are correct about all 119.97X (LH) versions of the M119 having the same intake runners, but there was a change made between the 119.96X and 119.97X versions.
Not a 100% correct statement. If you mean 129 and 140 LH versions, then you are correct. But the R129 also used the 119.96X version the first three model years 1990, 1991 and 1992. It is documented in numerous places that the intake runners were lengthened for the 500E M119 over the previous, CIS-E injected M119s as used on the R129. Dave, you posted before you saw my EDIT above.
To summarize: the intake of the M119 as used in the early (CIS-E) M119 in the R129 is very definitely different than the intake used on the LH M119.97X in the 1992 500E (and 129 and 140). I think you are correct about all 119.97X (LH) versions of the M119 having the same intake runners, but there was a change made between the 119.96X and 119.97X versions.
Re: Bolt on performance exhaust for the 500e (testing waters)
If you wanna get picky... the 5.0L M119.96x, 119.97x, and M119.98x each use a completely different, unique upper intake manifold.
However, each variant has the same intake manifold across all chassis. Meaning, the .970 (140), .972 (129), and .974 (124) all use the same intake manifold.
OK... you had said "500E variant of the LH 119", and that is what my reply was referring to.
If you wanna get picky... the 5.0L M119.96x, 119.97x, and M119.98x each use a completely different, unique upper intake manifold.
However, each variant has the same intake manifold across all chassis. Meaning, the .970 (140), .972 (129), and .974 (124) all use the same intake manifold.
Re: Bolt on performance exhaust for the 500e (testing waters)
This is the newly shotblasted (glass) 119 975 400E, with tidied up ports as the portmatch only get c:a 20mm deep and does leave
a sharp edge here and there. Same goes for the cyl.head intake ports, in the case of the E50 I'm putting together.
I will do the same operation to smoth out the portmatch wich is all they have done to the E50 motor!
As I can judge, the 119 980 casting upper and lower are the same but offcourse no hole for the EGR and the extra two temp. sensors are provided.
I say it's odd to find the 400E manifole in a slightly better finish.......Roger
This is the newly shotblasted (glass) 119 975 400E, with tidied up ports as the portmatch only get c:a 20mm deep and does leave
a sharp edge here and there. Same goes for the cyl.head intake ports, in the case of the E50 I'm putting together.
I will do the same operation to smoth out the portmatch wich is all they have done to the E50 motor!
As I can judge, the 119 980 casting upper and lower are the same but offcourse no hole for the EGR and the extra two temp. sensors are provided.
I say it's odd to find the 400E manifole in a slightly better finish.......Roger
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Yes, that is the difference. The .97x manifold won't work with ME injection and the .98x manifold won't work with LH injection. It's the upper half that is different. The lower half might be the same, I haven't checked part numbers.
The .98x upper casting IS PHYSICALLY DIFFERENT than the .97x upper casting. The difference is easily visible. Just look at them. Yes you can bolt them to either .97x or .98x engines, but the ancillaries won't connect.
The .98x upper casting IS PHYSICALLY DIFFERENT than the .97x upper casting. The difference is easily visible. Just look at them. Yes you can bolt them to either .97x or .98x engines, but the ancillaries won't connect.
Here is where I read it:
http://www.hemmings.com/hsx/stories/2012/08/01/hmn_buyers_guide1.html
I believe der fuhrer is interviewed for the article.
http://www.hemmings.com/hsx/stories/2012/08/01/hmn_buyers_guide1.html
I believe der fuhrer is interviewed for the article.
"W119" engine? "500S" sedan? LOL.
The W140 500S (sic) used LH injection from start of production and the modules are fully interchangeable with the 500E (there are differences for some items, but they will plug & play in both cars and start/run/drive).
This "W119" engine was only up 22 lb-ft from the 300SL?Funny, I don't remember MB producing a CIS-injected 300SL. Oh, that's right, they didn't.
Good stuff - thank for the Friday laugh!
The W140 500S (sic) used LH injection from start of production and the modules are fully interchangeable with the 500E (there are differences for some items, but they will plug & play in both cars and start/run/drive).
This "W119" engine was only up 22 lb-ft from the 300SL?
Good stuff - thank for the Friday laugh!
D'OH! You are correct. I was thinking the R129 initially was released only with the M119, not M104. It was the M120 that didn't appear until 1993.Actually Dave, they did produce CIS-injected R129 SL's. The '90 - '91's have CIS M104's and could even be had with 5-speed manual transmissions
Bad Dave! No soup for him!
"W119" engine? "500S" sedan? LOL.
The W140 500S (sic) used LH injection from start of production and the modules are fully interchangeable with the 500E (there are differences for some items, but they will plug & play in both cars and start/run/drive).
This "W119" engine was only up 22 lb-ft from the 300SL? Funny, I don't remember MB producing a CIS-injected 300SL. Oh, that's right, they didn't.
Good stuff - thank for the Friday laugh!
I think 300SL is a typo. I think they meant 500SL.
Possibly. And the early R129 500SL's were CIS.
Yes. One of multiple typos. *sigh*
I hate articles like this which are riddled with errors, that's how misinformation spreads like gangrene. "I read it on the intewebs, it must be true!"
Yes. One of multiple typos. *sigh*
I hate articles like this which are riddled with errors, that's how misinformation spreads like gangrene. "I read it on the intewebs, it must be true!"
Didn't Richard Rawlings coin the phrase "interweb"?
Yes, that is the difference. The .97x manifold won't work with ME injection and the .98x manifold won't work with LH injection. It's the upper half that is different. The lower half might be the same, I haven't checked part numbers.
The .98x upper casting IS PHYSICALLY DIFFERENT than the .97x upper casting. The difference is easily visible. Just look at them. Yes you can bolt them to either .97x or .98x engines, but the ancillaries won't connect.
Dave, as I can see I find no other differences than a few extra holes for vaccuum lines, injector holes bigger w plastic sleeve, cut outs in between the
evac. slot ( petrol fumes ) because the different inlet gasket and holes therein to the smaller recesses in cyl.head inlet gasket face.
Older manifold has R129*** E50 has HWA and same digits! I do not worry too much about the HWA#, it can be said about the M113 4.3 also
has the same HWA# as the C43 and E55AMG on it's manifold, meaning, the HWA does not have to do with AMG in some cases.
I say it can easily be used in both cases if modifyed slighly. OH this is nothing to argue about only facts in this case, good to know I think. Roger
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If holes were added where needed, or plugged where not needed, yep that might work. But as-is, they will not work.
Kinda like saying you could take an M119.960 engine and make it work in a 500E. They're not the same but hey, anything is possible.
Kinda like saying you could take an M119.960 engine and make it work in a 500E. They're not the same but hey, anything is possible.
I cant remeber MY intake manifold, nor the one from my W140 M119.970 engine looks like this:
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Mercedes-Ben...018056718?pt=DE_Autoteile&hash=item257d6c900e
And this is from an 500SL early CIS M119.960 series.
http://www.ebay.de/itm/Mercedes-Ben...018056718?pt=DE_Autoteile&hash=item257d6c900e
And this is from an 500SL early CIS M119.960 series.
Hi, Christian, I was looking for pictures of the 119 960 manifold, now
it is very clear Mercedes really did rework, modyfie, renew the unitary
M 119 97/98 short/low block motor even more than I thought and it stands
more clear than ever. Surprising the manifold mating to the heads are
completely different and that does mean the cyl. heads do not interchange.
Some say the plenum chamber is a bit "small" take a look at this M119 960
claustrofobic cave and the length of the runners, oh my!
Looks to me, only the crank and some minor items are useable to
newer 119's. Very informative, thanks. Roger
it is very clear Mercedes really did rework, modyfie, renew the unitary
M 119 97/98 short/low block motor even more than I thought and it stands
more clear than ever. Surprising the manifold mating to the heads are
completely different and that does mean the cyl. heads do not interchange.
Some say the plenum chamber is a bit "small" take a look at this M119 960
claustrofobic cave and the length of the runners, oh my!
Looks to me, only the crank and some minor items are useable to
newer 119's. Very informative, thanks. Roger
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Last edited:
D'OH! You are correct. I was thinking the R129 initially was released only with the M119, not M104. It was the M120 that didn't appear until 1993.
Bad Dave! No soup for him!
I might be missing something in the discussion but how about the M103 12V R129 300SL?
That one never came to USA. USA only received the 129.061 (CIS-E M104) and 129.063 (HFM M104) six-cylinder models.
I don't keep up with all the Euro models... there were far more variations over there.
I think there will be issues with ABS+ASR if attempting to convert to a factory ME injection system with factory 722.6 TCU. Not sure if anyone has done this yet.
The W210 has a completely different ABS/ASR hydrualic unit, totally different electrical connectors. I don't know if it's feasible to swap the W210 hydraulic unit into a W124. Also, the W210 had optional ESP, I'd be even less confident it's possible to convert a 124 to functional ESP.
If there was a way to keep the 124 ABS+ASR with the later engine+trans computers, that would be great, but I don't know if that would work. The engine computers expect CAN signals from ABS/ASR and vice-versa, and the early & late systems may not transmit the signals expected by the recipient. Whole lotta unknowns here.
I am trying to relate the Mercedes EFI system to what I am familiar with, which is Ford's early EFI systems. The difference between KE and LH appears to be the same as the difference between Speed Density and MAF on a Ford. Ford switched from the speed density system to the MAF system in about 1992. The MAF system is much more desirable because it allows tweaking the airflow and injectors. The ECU can then be "tricked" by the signal coming from the MAF sensor and trigger the injectors to allow more fuel (in simple terms). I was able to run a 90 mm throttle body, 90 mm MAF and 42 lb injectors through an ECU designed for a 76 mm throttle and 19 lb injectors by changing the MAF curve which in turn changed the voltage to the injectors. I had to install a wideband O2 sensor to accurately monitor the AFR. I did not have access to a dyno so I would first set the idle and make initial tweaks by data logging on a lap top through a series of RPM ranges. The MAF curve would be adjusted in small steps until I reached optimum results and idled as close to 14.7 as possible. Then I would take the vehicle out on the road and run it through a series of WOT and cruising while data logging on a laptop. I would review the AFR and copy the MAF curve data to a spreadsheet, make adjustments and then upload the new curve to the ECU. Through a series of trial and error I could see significant improvements and power through this poor man's dyno technique. I could play with different settings and save the ECU files I liked and continue to tweak them on the bench. Using a dyno is by far the best method for tuning the ECU, but at $100/hour and all the tweaks I was making I decided to go the over road method.
The Ford ECU's I used were preprogrammed so I had to dismantle the ECU and install a module that allowed over riding the stock settings. Fortunately the Ford ECU was easily accessible. My project was a 1974 Ford Bronco. I built a 408 stroker roller motor and converted it to MAF EFI. I installed an extension cord for the ECU and installed it under the passenger seat for easy access. Ford also had a series of different intake manifolds and off course there were a multitude of after market ones available. I choose the Ford GT40 because it flow tested as good as any of the after market ones and I loved the look. My little Ford Bronco was a little torque monster and spinning the tires as easy as lightly stepping on the gas pedal.
Well, in reality I have never been much of a Ford fan but the Ford systems of the late 80's and early 90's are very simple, user friendly and I learned a lot from them. Now I would love to find a way to make the same type of changes to the M119 LH system, but I get the feeling that it isn't quite as easily done as the old Ford ECU's. The Ford systems are very popular with hot rodeos, so there is a ton of aftermarket programs and techniques available. Not so much for Mercedes unless you have a later model then you can purchase a "canned" tune.
The Ford ECU's I used were preprogrammed so I had to dismantle the ECU and install a module that allowed over riding the stock settings. Fortunately the Ford ECU was easily accessible. My project was a 1974 Ford Bronco. I built a 408 stroker roller motor and converted it to MAF EFI. I installed an extension cord for the ECU and installed it under the passenger seat for easy access. Ford also had a series of different intake manifolds and off course there were a multitude of after market ones available. I choose the Ford GT40 because it flow tested as good as any of the after market ones and I loved the look. My little Ford Bronco was a little torque monster and spinning the tires as easy as lightly stepping on the gas pedal.
Well, in reality I have never been much of a Ford fan but the Ford systems of the late 80's and early 90's are very simple, user friendly and I learned a lot from them. Now I would love to find a way to make the same type of changes to the M119 LH system, but I get the feeling that it isn't quite as easily done as the old Ford ECU's. The Ford systems are very popular with hot rodeos, so there is a ton of aftermarket programs and techniques available. Not so much for Mercedes unless you have a later model then you can purchase a "canned" tune.
