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M119 Running Too Hot

chappardababbar

E500E Enthusiast
Member
I posted this topic a while ago and it seems to have gotten lost in the reboot, but I'm still keen for you guys to share my grief on the subject.

So she's been running hot ever since I got her a year ago; I've had to keep it under control by letting heat into the cabin through the fans but it's slowly been getting worse to the point that it's unbearable - the speed of travel makes no difference either - slow or fast, it still heats up. I've put off doing anything about it simply due to lack of time, the car only gets used once a week.

From the research I've done and by reading posts from several people on this forum I figured the culprit was the fan clutch. I took the car to my MB tech and he mentioned the clutch needed to be changed before I even spoke to him about the overheating issue so I figured that MUST be the problem. Anyway, I asked him to replace it (?450 - ouch!) and on the way home the car heated up just as quickly as before. I'm consoling myself by hoping that was an original clutch (I don't have much documentation) and that it would have gone anyway but now got to find out what the problem is.

Coolant was also citric acid flushed and changed and radiator was removed and cleaned (it looks newish judging by how shiny it is).

How do I know if the water pump is working?
 
If its a shot water pump, it will go red in minutes.

what engine temps are you getting?
 
Have you verified that it actually is running too hot? Do you get steaming and/or bubbling in the expansion tank? Reason I ask is that my temp gauge was showing consistently low temps for the last couple years. Replaced thermostat, no change. I just changed the temp sensor and now I see temps that would appear to be real, 80-90 range. Before I used to barely reach 80 on the gauge.

Rgds,
Allgonquin
 
It hits the marker between 80 degrees and 120 degrees, which I assume is 100 degrees very quickly - much more quickly than it used to and in traffic.

It will then continue to rise to half way between 100 and 120 on a long motorway journey or in slow moving traffic but I'll usually open up the heating in the car to drop it down to just above the 80 mark, which is where it used to sit when I first got her.

Ambient temps make a big difference. It's been hot in the UK lately i.e. was about 26 degrees here last week and the temp exceeded 110 very quickly. Today it was around 15 and it took a lot longer to get really hot.

However, some people on the forum have commented that when they can barely stand next to the front of the car because it's so hot but mine is nothing like that. I had the bonnet open when to see if I could his this roar of the fan people keep talking about and the temp gauge was at the halfway mark between 80 and 120 but I was able to get right in there and it didn't feel hotter than normal.
 
Allgonquin said:
Have you verified that it actually is running too hot? Do you get steaming and/or bubbling in the expansion tank? Reason I ask is that my temp gauge was showing consistently low temps for the last couple years. Replaced thermostat, no change. I just changed the temp sensor and now I see temps that would appear to be real, 80-90 range. Before I used to barely reach 80 on the gauge.

Rgds,
Allgonquin

Hi, I don't think it's the temp sensor because of the range of temperatures that I'm seeing. If I'm not paying attention and the needle reaches 110, the air that comes into the cabin when I turn the heating up to max is hot; I mean really hot. In fact after a prolonged journey the ignition cylinder and key are so hot that it's uncomfortable to touch. During this time the needle will drop from 110+ to just above 80 degrees in under a minute.

I haven't checked for steaming or bubbling in expansion tank.

BTW Which is the cap I need to change? The radiator cap or the expansion cap tank?
 
Simple things first:

1) How old is the expansion tank cap? If more than 5 years, replace it with new OE/OEM.

2) 1) How old is the thermostat? If more than 5 years, replace it with new OE/OEM.

3) You can verify the accuracy of the dash gauge by connecting a digital scanner and reading the live data... this will show the exact temp in degrees Celcius from the separate sensor which feeds the LH and EZL. This reading should match the dash gauge within a couple of degrees.

4) I have heard that other issues, which have NOTHING to do with the cooling ssytem, can cause hot running problems. Check out this message from a guy chasing down a problem with his car running rich:

"But here is the really strange thing.... see if you can get your head around this one.

One of the problems this car has had since the day I got it is that it runs really, really hot. In stop and go traffic the engine temp pretty quickly (within 10 minutes) rises to 105-107C, the aux fans kick on and the car returns to 100C, which are the cut in/out points for the aux fan system. In steady state driving the car runs around 100-102C. These temps have been verified by independent means and occur even at ambient temps as low as the mid-40?F range. I've owned other M119 powered W124 cars and I know they do tend to run hot but this behavior is way over the top. I was planning on doing some cooling system diagnosis before using the car on a daily basis since I'm pretty sure something in the cooling system is not correct.

So fast-forward to this afternoon - with the MAF disconnected and the EZL vacuum line installed correctly the engine temp runs at a rock-steady 85C - and it was about 75F ambient on the east coast today. So it would appear that somehow the EZL or the MAF is responsible for my hot running condition?
Is it possible that without vacuum info the EZL was providing poorly timed sparks? Could this alone be responsible for my elevated engine temps? Ever heard of this behavior before?

Weird stuff indeed. "


I'd at least check to make sure the vacuum line to the EZL is intact, and there is no leaking or broken fittings... I think if there's low (or no) vac signal to the EZL, it will pull timing, reducing power and also possiby causing hotter operating temps than normal.

:cel:
 
Thanks Dave,

I'll order a new cap and t-stat. How much is one of these and what does it look like?

Good idea about the scanner - I'll do that next time I take the car to the garage.

As for the EZL lines vacuum lines, I'm not really sure what you mean, but I'll check the condition of the wires that come off this.
 
I think I've figured it out. Just come back from a meal out and temp was getting extra hot. When I got home I opened the bonnet to reduce the baking effect and noticed the aux fans were not spinning! I can't believe I didn't think of checking this.

Temp was at nearly 110 when I parked up there was no action from the aux fans. Now to try and figure out how to get them working again....

Edit: actually aux fans only kick in at 100 degrees right? That's still higher than the car should be running at, so maybe a bit premature.
 
Just found this great post by Lexluther on Ecstasy:

Reading your link to the UK forum seems you've got he fan clutch on. Regarding the AUX fans there are the following components:

Pre-facelift mini fuse box location next to brake booster (metal strip-fuse) conatians only this fuse
Facelift model mini fuse box location on shocktower with plastic ATC blade fuse
All models additional mini fuse box (contains only metal strip fuse)
Yet another containing red ceramic fuse also on shock tower
Relay in fuse box
Hi Low fan resistor behind driver headlight next to AC dryer.
wire coupling connection from main hardness to AUX fans on frame rail next to dryer
Another coupling next to fans
AUX fans themselves

There are also a host of sensors:
Blue top 2 pin on top of intake manifold
Round blakck 4pin next to it
Hi-Low pressure switch on AC dryer
AC-clutch overload switch also on AC dryer

Best thing to do is start with the simple stuff like fuses.
Then uncouple the fan connection under the bumper and get some wires and hook up 12v direct to see if fans move. (if they dont,bad fans)
Connect that back up and go to coupling near AC dryer disconnect it and run 12v power (fan side) to see if they spin.
Then go to sensors on dryer and use test meter to check ohm load to see if sensors are good (values are in repair manual CD).
Test with meter Hi-Lo resistor voltage test only.
Continuity test from metal strip fuse on shock tower both directions.
Relay you need special tester so when in doubt or lacking tools change it out but only after conducting previous test unless you like me and do it anyways.

So progress with your troubleshooting from the fans back but only after changing the fuses. Including the metal ones you have to use a screw driver and push down on the center of the tab or remove them for inspection. Sometimes their hard to spot if they've blown.

After these you get in deep in tracing out the wiring hardness in the main fuse box and cabling going out so try everything else first. When I was working on mine I rushed it and started in reverse. I went for the hard stuff first but in the case of the AUX fans there is so much redunancy and protection I would check the fuses and sensors first not to mention operation of the fans themselves. Make sure you have a fully charged battery if your using that to test the fans. These guys are hi amp motors so they draw a lot of power. Would be a shame to test them with a low battery and waste the money in replacing the AUX fans bacause of it.
 
The auxiliary electric fans have two stages:

1) Low speed: This is triggered by A/C refrigerant pressure... fans come on at 16 bar, and turn off at 12 bar (approx). Most of the time the AC is running on a warm day, the fans will be on low speed.

2) High speed: This is triggered by a separate, 2-prong sensor on the front of the intake manifold. It should turn the fans on at 107?C, and off around 100?C, IIRC. Please note this is a resistive sensor, NOT an on/off switch!


This would only affect the car when at a standstill, i.e. at extended idle. While driving, the mechanical clutch fan pulls far more air than the little electric fans. Check the fuse(s) for the fans... models through 1993 have an external 30A strip fuse, similar to the HVAC fuse. 1994-95 models have the fuse integrated into the fan relays, in the relay compartment behind the main fuse box area.

:wormhole:
 
I recently had the situation that the fans were not coming on also, and the trouble was traced to a control unit part number 126-820-20-26. Cost $39.95. Wholesale at the Mercedes Benz dealer. It is a greenish yellow color. Also a 30amp metallic fuse was blown. Part number 000-545-20-34, $1.89 at the dealer. The 30 amp fuse is located just to the left and forward of the above mentioned control unit. The 30 amp fuse is held in place by two screws, and looks different than the regular fuses in that it looks like a metal strip with a horse shoe at each end. My mechanic said it was difficult to see that it was blown. Since I had these two parts along with the belt tension replaced the fans come on exactly as they are supposed too. Hope this is some help.

Russell Coe
 
Thanks Russell; my car is a '92 also (a good year).

Did you have the overheating symptoms I have described above? Was the problem resolved as soon as you fixed the aux fans?
I didn't think this was the sole problem until I Dave's post regarding high/low speeds.
 
Is there any way to know for sure if you have a head gasket failure?

Are there any symptoms other than over heating. I don't think I've heard this mentioned in other overheating threads so I'm curious as to why my tech thinks this could be the case.
 
Sorry I have not replied to your previous question earlier.

No I did not have any overheating problems prior to the relay and fuse going out.

I have not heard of head gasket failure with these cars before on any of the 500E sites but it could always be the first. I certainly hope it is not for you.

Russell Coe
 
If you have a head-gasket failure (depending on where and how bad it is), you'll:

a) lose coolant
b) lose oil
c) find oil in your coolant expansion tank (the dreaded "chocolate milkshake")
d) find coolant in your oil

Head gasket failures don't generally tend to be a problem on our M119 engines; I've in fact only heard of this happening a couple of times. HG failures are much more common on the M103 and M104 inline-6 and M116/M117 V-8 engines. :banana2:

Cheers,
Gerry
 
Almost any tech can check your coolant and tell you it you have a blown head gasket. Just take it to your tech guy. I doubt if he would even charge for the inspection.

My car temp climbs on a hot day and I have a new radiator, thermostat and hoses.

I believe it is also related to the electric fans. I only happens to me at long red lights on days when it is 90 F or above. Since I don't drive it that often it has not yet prompted me enough to check the fans out but they never seem to come on.

I hope you find it soon before something really serious happens. If it is really running hot you risk cracking the radiator or possibly a head or the gasket.

Good Luck
 
Thanks for the replies.

Okay good news is that there is no problem with the head gasket and I think we're getting close to the solution.

Firstly the problem with the aux fans has been resolved. There is a point where the wiring that goes to the fans turns back on itself, this wire was brittle and corroded. My tech cut a metre of the wire back and replaced with fresh wire, and the fans now work at 110 degrees C, off at 100 degrees C (according to tech). May have to do the resistor upgrade on this in the future but what I've learnt is that having the aux fans come on earlier may actually mask another underlying heating problem. In colder climes such as UK I think it may be better to leave fans coming on at 110 C.

The bad news is that the car has something called a secondary water pump. I have no knowledge of this but my tech assures me that the overheating is in part caused by the fact that this pump is not working at all. Combine this with aux fans not working and this is what is causing the drastic overheating. With both of these problems resolved, let's hope I get back to 80 degrees at cruising speed.

Update to follow.
 
chappardababbar said:
The bad news is that the car has something called a secondary water pump. I have no knowledge of this but my tech assures me that the overheating is in part caused by the fact that this pump is not working at all. Combine this with aux fans not working and this is what is causing the drastic overheating. With both of these problems resolved, let's hope I get back to 80 degrees at cruising speed.

Update to follow.
Your tech is half correct. There is a secondary (electric) water pump, right in front of the CAN box. However, it has NOTHING to do with cooling the engine. It is designed to keep hot coolant flowing through the heater core during extended idling in winter, when the engine RPM is too low to maintain full flow through the heater core. This keeps the air from the vents inside the pasenger compartment from gradually cooling off while you are sitting at a stop light for a couple minutes. But this secondary pump will NOT keep the engine cooler in summertime! Your tech should know this!

You are correct, btw, that you should try to fix the hot running problem, and NOT band-aid it by running the electric fans more often. The fans shouldn't be required under normal ambient temps & engine load. Please re-read the message I posted earier, your cooling system could be working 100% normally, and you might have some other engine management issue causing the hot running (i.e., lean condition, etc).

:wormhole:
 
Thanks Dave, I will be sure to pass this info on to him. Although the secondary pump does need to be replaced it sounds like it can't be a factor as the car does not overheat when idling. Only when under load.

You've just saved me a couple of hundred pounds. :grouphug:
 
Got the car back again today - a few things to report.

Held off replacing aux water pump though Tech replaced the thermostat today. I didn't realise how inexpensive this part was at ?25. Replacing this has definitely made a positive difference.

When I picked up the car the temp was at just under 110 degrees because the tech had the air con, heated seats and radio on for testing. Whilst I drove home I noticed that at a steady 50 mph the temp actually came down to just below 100 degrees which is good but then as soon as I hit traffic light and subsequently engaged in some surgical parking manouvers it VERY quickly shot back upto 110 (after turning off all electrics)

So what I'm saying is that at steady speeds of 50mph the situation has improved but at lower speeds the heating problem is worse than before. I don't think the fan clutch could have caused this, nor the thermostat, but something tells me that perhaps the citric acid flush/new coolant has changed something - because at low speeds the problem is dramatically worse unless the underlying problem, whatever it is, is deteriorating.

Also I mentioned the lean running problem and forwarded Dave's earlier post but he assures me the car is running on the button and "the timing is perfect". He's also checked the vacuum lines and no problems there.

Further to Dave's post I requested a test of gauge reading vs canbus reading and I'm told there is a discrepancy of 5 degrees though in which direction I failed to ask.

He's done a block test on the water pump which showed normal water flow but I'm told there could still be a problem with the pump. Reading stuff on ecstasy I remember reading there is a newer pump so maybe I'll upgrade when funds allow. Also still need to replace expansion tank cap.

Very frustrating.

Question - does leaving the car to idle for 2 hours cause damage to the engine? If so, why is this?
 
I agree with G the VZ... The fan clutch sure is suspect. If it's original, I'd put that high on the list of items to consider replacing. The aftermarket "ACM" clutch I used works great and is 1/5 the cost of OE, but it does require a 15mm shorter bolt. Check out this thread on Xtc for more details & photos on the clutch, particularly page 3.

Idling for 2 hours is generally not good, but if you don't make a habit of it, I wouldn't expect anything seriously bad. In general it wastes fuel, and if it's started up cold and left to idle, the rich mixture when cold can cause some fuel dilution in the oil. It can muck up the plugs a bit, since they don't get hot enough to clean themselves with basically no load. A little WOT time should take care of things though. I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.



:5150:
 
The fan clutch is the first thing that was replaced but it made no difference at all.

So far the following items have been replaced:
- fan clutch (single bolt)
- coolant
- thermostat
 
Hrmmmm. Remember, the fan clutch will not engage if it doesn't receive warm air through the radiator & condenser. Have you checked to make sure the radiator & condenser fins are clean, and not partially plugged with dirt, bugs, leaves, etc? Sometimes that grime can hide pretty well.

BTW - is the radiator original? Your symptoms are similar to what I experienced on my diesel 124... after replacing everything else, I finally replaced the 5-year-old radiator, and the temps dropped instantly back to normal. I'm not saying this is definitely the problem with your car, but if you're getting proper airflow via the fans, there's only so many things left...

:detective:
 
Ok just found this so let me chime in.

I've completely replaced the entire cooling system on my car and still had some issues in result the problem is my car was hardly driven over its life span and sat for extended periods only being driven around town once a month. The only real mileage I have on the car is from the PO moving from LA to AZ and then to FL. So multiple flushes were needed to clear out the calcium deposits in the cooling system from it sitting so long in between being driven. I progressed from the mild auto parts store cleaner to citric acid in the end I used a higher concentration of citric acid 3lbs diluted in 1qt hot water and ran this the second time. A thing to note is this process will only work if you completely flush the coolant out block drains and all other drains radiator etc.. and then put some dish soap in there to clean the grease and any residue as the citric acid will not clean the walls unless its free of coolant residue. Close everything up except the top radiator hose disconnected and let the new water run through the reservoir with the engine on until it runs clear dont forget to put some water also in the radiator where the top hose would be attached to flush that out as well then do the acid flush. Best done first thing before car is ever driven that day. I then drove for 1hr and then let cool (reason was I wanted the heavy deposits to settle on the bottom of the radiator where I can remove the lower hose and flush those out easily.)and then drove again for 1hr and let cool for several hours 4-6hrs you want to avoid cold water in a hot engine for numerous reasons. Afterward I ran fresh water again in the same process to clear out the citric acid. A thing to note is use tire dressing in the engine compartment as the citric acid will etch into the plastic and leave white acid spots that take hours to remove dont ask me who I know... Later I removed the block drains and also lower radiator hose and flushed again.

Temps were down but still hovered around 90-100 I have the newer style water pump S-class clutch and SL600 11 blade fan so the temp should not climb. Found out that the thermostat was not operating properly after I removed it and boiled it in some water in the kitchen. I also verified by running the car without a T-stat to see nominal operating temps to make sure its not a combination of things. Dealer warranted the T-stat as it was new 1yr old and now car is running 85-95 constant. I almost opened a serious can of cooling and was thinking of going to a zero pressure system and some Evans coolant baja racing style. MBZ cooling systems seem to work properly and cool at all if there is a minor leak somewhere such as the 90deg elbow on top of the tank or the small return line also on top of the radiator or the overflow that goes into the fender. Any leaks there and the system just pushes all the coolant out there and then looses pressure and doesn't cool at all. MBZ are engineered not to overheat if the system is operating properly given you see the warning lights and temps and pull over not continue to do autobahn speeds for extended periods. Ours are not new and the system has some age on it so unless you go extreme and do the flushes and replace all the parts as I did you have to expect some higher temps roughly 5-15F more due to system inefficiency. My car ran fine after my first round last year but seems some deposits were still present and decided to dislodge and work there way in the system along with T-stat going bad. I try to drive it more often but I only have 7k over the last 2yrs of ownership so these things to an extent should be expected.

A thing to note and my opinion is MBZ quality is way down. I'm restoring a 560SL and I had a leak with new dealer supplied pump and gasket when I pulled the pump I had rust on the impeller and it had factor fill coolant 50/50 mix. Also the brand new water pump bolts that cost 12bucks a shot were starting to rust. Also noted that original bolts held up better to be installed and removed while new bolts tended to round sooner. I use snap-on wrenched and always try to use 6 point wrenches and sockets and snap-on digital torque wrench.

Sometimes dealer is not the best source for parts so you need to do your homework and weight your options. A certain OEM may been more expensive to MBZ and they may have a cheaper or more profitable solution as the replacement so OE supplier maybe better and vise versa MBZ has to warranty parts including labor so dealer supplied parts maybe better its really a gamble.

A good coolant article here http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=263790

BTW: MBZ fluid is made by Zerex but to a different formulation of additives per conversation with Zerex.

I may try BMW coolant it seems to be an AOT coolant or else the Motul Inugel in concentrate about 9bucks 30% dilution or 3-1 per liter
 
chappardababbar 1 last thing I see you've replaced some parts already and I see your heading down my path and might end-up replacing everything. I did it because I love the car and decided to do so to keep it running forever but its completely un-necessary your better off following the diagnostic tree and spending the time and money figuring out what wrong rather than throw parts at the car.

Do the basics:
1) Check aux fans, clutch for operation and any blockage such as leaves in the radiator or condenser. You can take a plastic water bottle the flimsy kind empty of course and run it across the fan blades when the car is running if your able to slow it down your clutch is to weak. The shop foreman at my dealer did this to mine to check it. And when I asked what the hell he was doing he told me this :stickpoke: but man really be careful doing it because its not the safest thing to do (disclaimer... :shocking: )
2) disconnect the upper hose and observe coolant flow both static and dynamic-accelerating the engine.(may show pump failure or coolant blockage)
3) pull the thermostat and test it
4) use a digital thermometer in the reservoir tank and observe if the gauge in the dash reads the same. I used a coolant pressure test kit that measures temp, dynamic and static coolant pressure. Or if you have a set of service CD's check the Ohm reading to see if the sensors are to spec and operating properly.
5) use a test kit to measure any hydro carbons in the coolant to make sure your head gaskets are not seeping and creating additional pressure in the coolant system.

You could also pull the thermostat and run the car without it and see the test results. This will make the car warm up very slow yet remove the restriction and you can observe the efficiency of your cooling system. If you still have high temps you may have some blockages there and you need to clear them or system components are not working properly. This is to be used as a diagnostic tool not a solution 500E dont have Band-Aids as we have found only remedies problems must be solved to keep these cars running right.

And really do a proper flush of the system if the temps are really high. Otherwise leave it because you will introduce more dirt particles in the system and cause more headaches and parts to be replaced.

Only other option outside this is swing a big hammer and just kill the wallet and change everything but again not the smartest choice when a simpler solution may be found. My car had 4 things: blown fuse for aux fans, bad thermostat from the dealer(didn't fully open and close properly) , bad sensor to gauge from the dealer(read 10deg C off) and calcium deposits from sitting to much. All this was under a 100USD in parts to fix yet I spent more than 15x that replacing all the components which again un-nessasary unless you plan to keep the car for a very long time. Also note if I left the sensor and thermostat alone I wouldn't have had those problems but did a full PM (preventative maintenance) when I bought the car and got myself in trouble. Okay thats enough ranting :deadhorse2: :cheers3:


Let us know how you come out and if we can help?? were ready to tackle the overheating demon :bat:
 
Lexluther said:
A good coolant article here http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=263790

BTW: MBZ fluid is made by Zerex but to a different formulation of additives per conversation with Zerex.

I may try BMW coolant it seems to be an AOT coolant or else the Motul Inugel in concentrate about 9bucks 30% dilution or 3-1 per liter
There are several variations of Zerex. The Zerex G-05 formula is identical to the Mercedes antifreeze, actually I suspect the MB stuff is made by Zerex and just put into the MB container. Both are a light yellow/amber in color. DO NOT use any other Zerex formula in a Mercedes (particularly not the "green" stuff!)


Here are two more good antifreeze articles worth reading:

MB Star article:
http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/ ... rticle.pdf

MOTOR magazine article:
http://www.w124performance.com/docs/gen ... fusion.pdf

I would not use anything except MB or G-05 antifreeze in my Mercedes cooling sytems... not worth the risk or the hassle.

:wormhole:
 
Lexluther said:
You could also pull the thermostat and run the car without it and see the test results. This will make the car warm up very slow yet remove the restriction and you can observe the efficiency of your cooling system.
Warning: The MB cooling system uses a bypass type thermostat. That means with the t-stat closed, it blocks off the cool water from the radiator, and the water pump inlet only pulls from the warm engine block until the t-stat starts to open. However when fully open, the t-stat closes off the engine block port, so it only pulls cool liquid from the radiator. If you remove the t-stat entirely, the water pump will pull from either or both. But it doesn't force the water pump to only pull cool liquid from the radiator, which is what you'd want, for max cooling...

:detective:
 
gsxr said:
Warning: The MB cooling system uses a bypass type thermostat. That means with the t-stat closed, it blocks off the cool water from the radiator, and the water pump inlet only pulls from the warm engine block until the t-stat starts to open. However when fully open, the t-stat closes off the engine block port, so it only pulls cool liquid from the radiator. If you remove the t-stat entirely, the water pump will pull from either or both. But it doesn't force the water pump to only pull cool liquid from the radiator, which is what you'd want, for max cooling...

:detective:


Dave has a good point so if your T-stat is stuck closed you will only use the water in the engine so the car will run hotter if the t-stat is broken and never opens like mine did. But if you remove the t-stat completely both circuits will be working the block water and radiator as well so you can observe the difference in temp. If no difference then you may have several issues a blockage in the radiator or somewhere else or perhaps the water pump is not pumping enough water at which point you can pull the upper radiator hose and check the flow.

On mine it was pumping water out of the upper hose then stop for a bit build up pressure somewhere and then come gushing out then normal flow again and then stop and keep cycling telling me I had a blockage somewhere. Since the water temp was constant because I was adding water from the garden hose and it was flowing out of the car. The engine was idling meaning engine temp was static and the water from the garden hose its temp was static so there should be no change in the t-stat opening and operation. If I am adding water at the reservoir then no cooling effect is happening because the radiator is dry and vise versa if I move to the radiator upper inlet where the hose is disconnect and add water there the t-stat should open to grab the cooler water from the radiator circuit since no water or cooling is available from the reservoir side and the engine heats up and the t-stat should open. My test results from both circuits indicating I had a problem at which point I did the citric acid flush again and also pulled the t-stat and boiled it to check operation.
 
Dave/Lex,

Thank you for your recommendations. I haven't had a chance to try your suggestions due to work/exams but I'll report back soon.

Chaps.
 
Hoping to see whether anyone is still following this post... and hopefully won’t get myself in trouble when I say I am a 95 S420 owner, looking for some strong M119 knowledge in this site’s forums!

My M119 also seems to run hot, regularly running up to 110C in stop and go, but the aux fans do not coming on. I have pulled the the blue plug temp sensor wire to test them and both fans come on full blast and bring the car back to what I think of as “normal” temps at idle of about 85-90C.

In my ‘95 there are a series of aux fan relays that sit behind the the fuse box. There are also a couple blade fuses related to the aux fans, as well as the black “tube” style single resistor that sits between the aux fans.

Another oddity is that occasionally the temp gauge in the cluster will flutter quite drastically, almost like a little twitch where the needle will dance anywhere from 100C up to 120C and even beyond (physically tapping the cluster seemed to help the needle re-collect itself).

I’m really wondering whether the blue two-pin sensor could be a culprit of all of my issues. Perhaps the motor is not actually as hot as the gauge presents, which is why the aux fans are not coming on (because they really shouldn’t need to).

Curious whether anyone has thoughts/experience with symptoms like mine and could offer any guidance. Thanks in advance!

Andrew
 
There are two stages of aux fans -- fast and slow.

The slow speed should generally always be on if your air conditioning is running. I don't know if your A/C is working or not, but in many if not most conditions, when A/C is running that low-speed fan should be running.

The fast speed (which you will definitely hear from outside the car, perhaps not inside the car on a W140) should kick on when the coolant temperature reaches 105-107 degrees centigrade. If the system is working correctly, when the fast speed fan kicks on, it should push the temps back down to around 90C.

The fast speed is independent of the A/C system's low-speed operation, meaning that the low speed and high speeds are controlled by different parameters. Put in other words, the fans can go directly from OFF to high speed; it is not dependent on having the lower speed operating first.

I don't know if you have checked the operation of your fan clutch, but this is another very important part of the cooling system, particularly for low-speed driving. There are threads here about how to check for proper operation of the fan clutch; this is best done in hot ambient temps (I would say 80F and above outside).

It is a concern that your fans are not working. There are two things I would immediately check are the fuses and relays, as it looks like you have begun doing. The fuses, particularly. It is not all that common for the relays to go out, so I would focus more on the fuses. I would just find the correct fuse(s) and replace them straightaway.

There are THREE coolant temperature sensors, and all are located in the front part of the intake manifold on the M119. One of them (the single-pole sensor) is specifically and only for the gauge on the instrument cluster. One of them (I believe the four-prong sensor) provides a direct input on coolant temp to the LH fuel injection system. And one of them (the two-prong sensor) is geared toward the fan operation. It is relatively common for these sensors to go out -- I actually had one fail on my G-wagen (M104 six-cylinder engine) that also prohibited the fan to operate.

It sounds to me like one or more of your coolant temp sensors have failed, to be honest. They are all inexpensive to buy, particularly if you go aftermarket. They are all located on the intake manifold as per this post. All of the coolant temp sensors are accessible from the front of the engine and shouldn't require any disassembly to replace. It's important to get new crush washers when replacing them, however.

Another often overlooked item that is not often replaced is the thermostat. It's also inexpensive and not horribly difficult to replace, and a good idea if you don't know that it has been done. Thermostats can fail in several ways -- I have found that either they make the engine take a long time to come up to temperature from a cold start, or they allow the engine to get to very hot temperature more at high speeds and a bit less so at lower speeds (where the fan clutch and aux fans handle the bulk of the cooling). So while I don't necessarily think the thermostat is your problem, it probably wouldn't hurt to replace it with a Behr or Wahler unit.

Generally speaking (and I've lived in very hot climates like Houston, and in Portland OR, and now in Maryland), and I have had many vehicles with cooling systems in varying states of efficiency and condition.... a well-functioning cooling system should keep the temperature generally between 85-90C and 100C in all kinds of traffic. 90C is generally what you want to see. In very hot ambient temps (Houston, 95F in the summer with high humidity), you can see things creep up to 105C in stop and go traffic, but the fans and fan clutch should force those down quickly. In the Pacific Northwest, even in the summer, I believe that anything above 100C indicated on the gauge, would indicate a problem.

The flickering problem with your gauge could in my opinion either be a ground issue at the cluster, or a problem at the coolant temp sensor. I think the former is more likely. You'd have to pull the instrument cluster out of the dash and check all of the connections on the back of it to be sure. There's also an outside chance that the gauge itself could be bad, but the issue sounds more like an electrical connection relating to the wiring harness to me -- see next paragraph.

I believe it's the single-pring coolant temp sensor screwed into the intake manifold that goes to the gauge on the instrument cluster. Question -- has your upper wiring harness been replaced? Are you familiar with the issues relating to these upper wiring harnesses? Does the wiring where it attaches to your temp sensors look OK, or is the insulation peeling from the ends of the wires? If that harness is bad, then it can lead to all kinds of problems. And the upper wiring harness contains the wires to ALL THREE of the coolant temp sensors.

If your harness has not been replaced, and is the original one for your car -- there is a very strong chance that this may be your problem. There is A LOT of information on the forum here relating to the upper wiring harnesses.

To be honest -- if you have not replaced your upper wiring harness, I would do that before doing ANYTHING else in terms of diagnosing your issues.

Good luck, and keep us posted on what you find. I'm sure that others with far more experience than I will chime in.
 
My M119 also seems to run hot, regularly running up to 110C in stop and go,
If the gauge is accurate, that is WAY too hot.


but the aux fans do not coming on.
You are chasing a red herring, sort of. The temp should stay below 110C without the electric fans on. You must verify the mechanical viscous fan clutch is fully engaged over 100C. It should roar like a hurricane up to 3500rpm, then disengage above that. If this isn't happening, either the clutch is bad, or there is airflow blockage directly ahead of the clutch face. Yes, the electric fans need to be fixed too, but the fan clutch should be #1 on your list, electrics are #2.


I have pulled the the blue plug temp sensor wire to test them and both fans come on full blast and bring the car back to what I think of as “normal” temps at idle of about 85-90C.
That is a good sign, at least you know the fan motors are good, and it indicates the rest of the cooling system should be adequate. It also means your fan clutch is likely not engaging.


Another oddity is that occasionally the temp gauge in the cluster will flutter quite drastically, almost like a little twitch where the needle will dance anywhere from 100C up to 120C and even beyond (physically tapping the cluster seemed to help the needle re-collect itself).
This could be the gauge, the sending unit (not likely), or the upper wire harness. Check the harness date code, and/or for flaking insulation. If it's original, you need to replace it. I have one available if you need it. If you buy a new sender, get OE/Beru/VDO/Hella. Any other brand, walk away. This sending unit for the dash gauge is separate from the blue 2-pin. It's a single-pin sensor on the intake manifold, next to the blue 2-pin.


I’m really wondering whether the blue two-pin sensor could be a culprit of all of my issues. Perhaps the motor is not actually as hot as the gauge presents, which is why the aux fans are not coming on (because they really shouldn’t need to).
The blue 2-pin sends a temp signal to the HVAC system only, and controls the electric fans. It's cheap to replace. Same warnings apply as to brand names.

:pc1:
 
Thanks a ton to you both for the responses. It does have an updated Delphi upper harness which I was happy to see when I purchased last October. This car was a replacement for my 95 E320 (M104 W124) I’d had previously for nearly 12 years (which I so sadly lost in a crash), so am very familiar with the junk harness issues. Man, I wish I had that car back.

I’m surmising that aside from double checking fuses/relays, I may have issues centered on temperature sensors and the fan clutch. Something important you've helped me understand is that the fan clutch provides variable RPM. I was under the impression that since the fan was spinning, it must have been working properly, however it seems possible that it’s not spinning fast enough and could be the reason I’m running hot. Is there any way to properly test the fan RPMs as the link GSRX points out?

The thermostat appears new-ish only based on the fact that it appears much shinier in comparison to the rest of the thermostat hose transfer housing. Hoses appear new and are soft/pliable, making me think the prior owner may have had someone not familiar with these cars chasing an overheating problem as well (Always funny when people claim “dealer maintained” when selling). I noticed all this only after recently buying Zerex G-05 to prep for a coolant flush. I used a straw to pull some of the coolant out of the overflow reservoir and it was blue/green in appearance which I understand to mean whoever put coolant in it might not have used the proper coolant (my understanding is that MB/Zerex are orange in color).

Are the fan clutch and aux fans dependent on each other in any way? Meaning, if my fan clutch were failing, would that keep the aux fans from coming on, or is the aux fan operation only dependent on coolant temp and/or A/C BAR pressure? My A/C does work and I’ve let it idle with the A/C blasting on LO with coolant temp rising to 105C yet aux fans still do not come on. The aux fans not kicking in concerns me, as they seem to be my failsafe to primary cooling fan operation, yet are not coming on without me pulling the two-prong sensor plug.

Trying to figure out if I’ve got one culprit at the center of all this or perhaps two (fan clutch plus aux fan operation). Thanks again!


Andrew
 
Maybe an interesting solution when sbdy is considering changing the fan clutch


Stern Garage in Germany is proposing an electric fan for the M119. The webpage shows that they are out of stock, but I have seen already some E500E owners happy with the product... No affiliation btw
 
Thanks a ton to you both for the responses. It does have an updated Delphi upper harness which I was happy to see when I purchased last October. This car was a replacement for my 95 E320 (M104 W124) I’d had previously for nearly 12 years (which I so sadly lost in a crash), so am very familiar with the junk harness issues. Man, I wish I had that car back.

I’m surmising that aside from double checking fuses/relays, I may have issues centered on temperature sensors and the fan clutch. Something important you've helped me understand is that the fan clutch provides variable RPM. I was under the impression that since the fan was spinning, it must have been working properly, however it seems possible that it’s not spinning fast enough and could be the reason I’m running hot. Is there any way to properly test the fan RPMs as the link GSRX points out?

The thermostat appears new-ish only based on the fact that it appears much shinier in comparison to the rest of the thermostat hose transfer housing. Hoses appear new and are soft/pliable, making me think the prior owner may have had someone not familiar with these cars chasing an overheating problem as well (Always funny when people claim “dealer maintained” when selling). I noticed all this only after recently buying Zerex G-05 to prep for a coolant flush. I used a straw to pull some of the coolant out of the overflow reservoir and it was blue/green in appearance which I understand to mean whoever put coolant in it might not have used the proper coolant (my understanding is that MB/Zerex are orange in color).

Are the fan clutch and aux fans dependent on each other in any way? Meaning, if my fan clutch were failing, would that keep the aux fans from coming on, or is the aux fan operation only dependent on coolant temp and/or A/C BAR pressure? My A/C does work and I’ve let it idle with the A/C blasting on LO with coolant temp rising to 105C yet aux fans still do not come on. The aux fans not kicking in concerns me, as they seem to be my failsafe to primary cooling fan operation, yet are not coming on without me pulling the two-prong sensor plug.

Trying to figure out if I’ve got one culprit at the center of all this or perhaps two (fan clutch plus aux fan operation). Thanks again!


Andrew
That's good that the wiring harness has been taken care of. That eliminates a whole host of potential issues, and allows you to move on to a better diagnosis overall.

Fan RPM can be determined with an optical tachometer, which can be purchased at stores like Harbor Freight. I know that GSXR has done this and has reported results in the past.

However, the fan clutch can be tested audibly. There are a bunch of posts here about how to do this. One of @gsxr's posts is here: Viscous Fan Clutch Replacement | M119 Engine

I would not use visual appearance of the thermostat housing (which is a cast piece of aluminum on the passenger side of the water pump -- not the TOP of the pump) to assume that the thermostat has been changed. Often the thermostat is also mis-installed by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. There is a small hole that MUST be placed at the TOP of the thermostat when it is installed. See this page in the factory manual for more information.

The blue-green coolant is likely the current-spec Zerex G-48, which is what MB uses and specifies for engines now. However most of us use the "old" G-05 which is pinkish/brown in color and available at McFLAPS stores (AutoZone, Advance Auto, O'Reilly, etc.). I would replace it with G-05 just to ensure that it is base-lined. Buy a couple of gallons of coolant and mix it 50-50 with distilled water. If you drain the radiator at the pet-cock (bottom corner on the passenger side) and at least one (if not both) of the block drains, you'll get nearly all of the coolant out.

The fan clutch is 100% a mechanical system, that depends on engine RPM and ambient temps (a bi-metallic strip expands and contracts with ambient temp, allowing heavy oil inside the fan clutch to flow through passages and progressively engage the fan clutch RPM). The aux fans (low and high) are 100% electric and are dependent on the coolant temp sensor (and for the low fan speed, also the A/C system operation much of the time).

The high aux fan speed is pretty much an "emergency" mode to force coolant temp down once the coolant reaches the ~105C mark. You really should never hear the high speed of the aux fan unless it is VERY hot outside and you are in stop and go traffic where there is little to no airflow through the radiator and the fan clutch is not operating at high RPM (due to engine idle). The aux fan high speed should also switch on and off -- it should run for a minute or so, and then turn off. When the coolant temp creeps back up, it will run again and then shut off.

Since your fans are dead whether you have the A/C on or not (and you were able to engage the fans by shorting things), that pretty clearly tells me that there is an issue with the coolant temp sensor. I would probably start by replacing the coolant temp sensor (the two-prong unit).

Fan clutches do go bad as well (and even the factory ones are often mis-adjusted right out of the box), but it's important that you get your fans working properly as a first step. Also, with the aux fan on low speed, it will help the efficiency of your A/C system a bit, by moving extra air over the condenser (just ahead of the radiator).
 
Maybe an interesting solution when sbdy is considering changing the fan clutch


Stern Garage in Germany is proposing an electric fan for the M119. The webpage shows that they are out of stock, but I have seen already some E500E owners happy with the product... No affiliation btw

They havent given much details there on the specs. Eg is this fan PWM controlled? What is the max CFM?

IMHO no electric fan out there will ever match the CFM of a mechanical viscous fan and spending that sort of dough or any amount on an electric fan conversion is a total waste of money.

It also erodes the originality of the car it is fitted to! If you ever have your 500E appraised (for insurance etc) then you will quicky find that mods like these devalue the car in effect.

This is just my opinion and it is based on experience. I created a proper custom 500E electric fan conversion discussed here before that looked like stock. 2x new fans (not PWM however) and it wasnt anywhere near as strong as the mechanical fan so that went back in.

If I were ever to explore this idea again on a w124 or similar for sure it would have to be a OEM Mercedes PWM fan from a newer V8 model such as a w220 and take on the required custom cowl to accommodate same.

The other problem is the front bumper bar location blocks half of the rad! Which the original cowl is designed to work with. Plus the flaps open up at speed and allow for additional cooling on the original setup. To be fair MB would have spent $$$$$$ on developing the V8 w124 rad pack and fan and it IS the best solution period.
 
I believe that @Jelmer and @Christian_K jointly created an electric fan solution for their cars. IIRC it was somewhat successful, but in the end (from what I could tell) it was not as efficient as the original one with the fan clutch. I think there was noise as well.

There should be a thread on it. Yep, found it !!

 
I’m surmising that aside from double checking fuses/relays, I may have issues centered on temperature sensors and the fan clutch. Something important you've helped me understand is that the fan clutch provides variable RPM. I was under the impression that since the fan was spinning, it must have been working properly, however it seems possible that it’s not spinning fast enough and could be the reason I’m running hot. Is there any way to properly test the fan RPMs as the link GSRX points out?
Yes. The roar test I described above is the easy method. Otherwise you need an optical tachometer for scientific testing.


The thermostat appears new-ish only based on the fact that it appears much shinier in comparison to the rest of the thermostat hose transfer housing. Hoses appear new and are soft/pliable, making me think the prior owner may have had someone not familiar with these cars chasing an overheating problem as well (Always funny when people claim “dealer maintained” when selling). I noticed all this only after recently buying Zerex G-05 to prep for a coolant flush. I used a straw to pull some of the coolant out of the overflow reservoir and it was blue/green in appearance which I understand to mean whoever put coolant in it might not have used the proper coolant (my understanding is that MB/Zerex are orange in color).
Since your temps drop to <90C when you force the electric fans on, the thermostat isn't an issue. G-05 is light yellow/gold in color.


Are the fan clutch and aux fans dependent on each other in any way? Meaning, if my fan clutch were failing, would that keep the aux fans from coming on, or is the aux fan operation only dependent on coolant temp and/or A/C BAR pressure?
Mechanical fan and electric fans are entirely separate. Aux fans are triggered by either refrigerant pressure, or engine temperature. Mechanical fan is triggered only by the air temp coming through the radiator.


My A/C does work and I’ve let it idle with the A/C blasting on LO with coolant temp rising to 105C yet aux fans still do not come on. The aux fans not kicking in concerns me, as they seem to be my failsafe to primary cooling fan operation, yet are not coming on without me pulling the two-prong sensor plug.
In general with AC running on a hot day, the aux fans should be spinning on low or medium speed. If not, the pressure switch may be defective. Keep in mind that the aux fans may NOT run on a cool day, because refrigerant pressure may not be high enough to trigger them. You need a set of AC manifold gauges to test this. And, replacing the pressure switch requires evacuating the refrigerant, vacuuming the system, and re-charging... not fun.


Trying to figure out if I’ve got one culprit at the center of all this or perhaps two (fan clutch plus aux fan operation). Thanks again!
Sounds like 2 separate issues to me:

1) Fan clutch should be engaged and roaring with coolant temps over 105°C, and I expect it is not.
2) Aux fans should be running on low or medium speed on a hot day with AC on, and you say they are not.
 
@gsxr Do you know at what BAR pressure the low and medium speeds of the aux fan are supposed to kick in? The W140 has a feature in the HVAC unit to run a diagnostic that will allow you to see the refrigerant BAR in real time. As it builds I’m wondering if there are certain pressures I should be looking for as triggers for the stages the aux fans should be coming on. If they’re not coming on at those pressures, perhaps the switch is defective as you mentioned, and could also mean my coolant temp sensor is bad if the temp of the coolant is not triggering them on as a fallback.

I plan on checking out your thread on audible roar test and giving that a try soon. I don’t have a digital tach, though I may now need to add one to the tool collection :)

The other wild card I meant to ask more about is the black, tube shaped resistor that sits in front of the condenser, between the aux fans. I’ve done some reading on the fact that this tube style resistor was apparently garbage, and replaced with a different style strip resistor through a technical bulletin. Any clue how that resistor factors into operation of the aux fans and how to test if it’s crapped out? It has fixed wires going into the tube that I don’t know how I’d test without cutting it out entirely.

Thanks a TON! Feel like I’m finally getting somewhere with this troubleshooting and diagnosing before I just go replacing things.
 
Outstanding, thank you! Will test the A/C BAR as aux fan trigger and see how that goes.

Back to the fan clutch, my suspicion is that it will fail the roar test and is the likely culprit to my high temp issues. Doing some quick searching I see Pelican offers a Behr unit for about $150, I recognize the name but don’t think I’ve ever bought Behr parts in the past. With milder climate here in the Pacific Northwest I’m guessing the A/M unit should give me good bang for the buck considering the genuine part is nearly cost prohibitive at over $500 for me as a DIY enthusiast, and father of two girls under the age of 4 ;)

Here’s the part, interesting that the longer comment from a C140 owner who bought the part said the Behr unit was thinner than OEM, yet seemed to function properly. Wish FCP Euro offered one to get the lifetime replacement warranty, but seems they’re smart enough to know they don’t want to warranty a part like that.

 
For a m119 w140 application I highly recommend a NRF fan clutch. I believe it is not China per say in that it is actually manufactured by NRF with a factory test sheet for each clutch. NRF specialise in cooling parts for cars through to heavy plant and appear to be well regarded. This is the best quality fan clutch I have used on a m119 anyway
 
The Behr clutch is thinner, made in China, not great quality, and requires a shorter bolt. ANY of the thin clutches will require a shorter bolt. The Chinese clutches tend to work great at cooling, as they are usually "over-engaged", meaning they may be roaring away in winter too. I don't know if NRF is available in USA, at least I've not seen them for sale here.
 
For a m119 w140 application I highly recommend a NRF fan clutch. I believe it is not China per say in that it is actually manufactured by NRF with a factory test sheet for each clutch. NRF specialise in cooling parts for cars through to heavy plant and appear to be well regarded. This is the best quality fan clutch I have used on a m119 anyway

Thanks for the recommendation, I tried getting on the NRF website and used their online store but don’t seem to see anything for my W140 M119 motor. Also not sure if they ship to the USA or not, but wouldn’t mind taking a look if they did.

Any chance you can help get to the actual product that’s the equivalent of part # 119-200-00-22?
 
First, the fan clutch diag. Did audible roar test and I’d say it failed. Couldn’t hear any audible change from the drivers seat with the door open. Even had my wife run it up to 3K RPM with my head up near the fan and didn’t notice a change. Even visually I would say that it didn’t appear to spin any faster. Sounds like I’m ordering a new fan clutch. I’ll get the Behr unit from Pelican unless someone has a lead on an available and better A/M brand. In a similar $150 price range.

Second, the aux fans. Using the chart @gsxr provided above, used the HVAC diag function to watch AC BAR pressure in real time. Aux fans do not come on at either first or second stages based on AC BAR values. Wasn’t a very hot day so pressure did not build high enough to know about third stage trigger. This was all while the car was between 95-100C and of course with the AC on.

Turned off AC and aux fans still not on, now in excess of 100C, approaching 110 I’d say, though based on the same chart above it would appear they should have triggered on at the 105C mark based on coolant temp.

Once again I was able to get the aux fans to turn on on by shorting 2 pin connector once removed from the sensor.

Here’s the part that’s very WEIRD to me about the aux fans. In three experiences messing with bypassing to turn the fans on, they’ve behaved differently each time.

First time I pulled the plug and had to short to turn on, then stayed on indefinitely While temps dropped to 85-90C and never turned off until I turned off the car. Second time I pulled the plug and they came on immediately, without shorting the connector, and again stayed on even after temp came down until I turned the car off. Now just this evening I again had to short the plug to turn them on, but as soon as I removed the short but the fans turned off. In each of these scenarios, the temp before trying to get the aux fans on would’ve been at 105-110C. Think my mind is officially boggled on the aux fan bit of this.

Anyone have access to a wiring diagram of this system? I still think the wild card could be this tube shaped resistor that sits in the front between the aux fans.
 
Curious to get feedback on an idea - FCP Euro does carry many Mercedes fan clutches though apparently none for my M119. They do however have this ACM fan clutch that’s reasonably priced, though it appears it’s intended some early 90’s diesel motors.

Any clues out there as to whether this is the same bolt pattern as our M119 takes?

 
Thanks for the recommendation, I tried getting on the NRF website and used their online store but don’t seem to see anything for my W140 M119 motor. Also not sure if they ship to the USA or not, but wouldn’t mind taking a look if they did.

Any chance you can help get to the actual product that’s the equivalent of part # 119-200-00-22?

Here is the old box I kept of this NRF m119 clutch:

20200723_082615.jpg

Came with the new short bolt in box too.

20200723_082501.jpg

Every clutch comes with a factory test sheet. I am 99% certain these NRF items are made in Europe and not China. This is the only clutch I will be using from now on. Readily available from AutoDoc although that may not be much use to you Mericans

Screenshot_20200722-073929.jpg

Dont judge on the price! Autodoc is always very and worryingly cheap for parts but it's all genuine stuff and I buy most all of my parts there now.
 
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Thanks a ton for digging that up @JC220. I located a new one on EBay but would be shipped to me in the US from abroad. In the event I have some kind of warranty issue, I’m thinking I’ll order the Behr unit through Pelican Parts for ease of contacting them.

Have had no luck locating a wiring diagram for the aux fans, however it does seem clear that the resistor which sits up between the fans has a lot to do with their functioning properly. I located this thread on Peach Parts (A/C Low Fan not working - W140 M104 1995 S320 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum) in which a semi fly knowledgeable fellow posted this PDF which appeared to be a Mercedes service bulletin about changing the tube resistor to a strip style, since the tubes were short lived and prone to failure.

I’m going to do some searching for these resistors online as well as local scrap yards to see if I can get lucky and see whether a faulty resistor could be the root of my issue with the aux fans.
 

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