Manufacturer for Pistons working with (M119) ALUSIL Blocks

[jhodg5ck]

Phew...i just got married/no kids. Life of DINK..:-D

Plan is, When/If we squeeze a kid out, we'll get a German nanny so when it comes time to Uni off she/he/?? goes to Germany. School for just about free..

...but we'll have spent all the $$'s on private school leading up since the public schools in GA are Crap.

Did manage to find her old 560SL we sold back in 06 and surprise her with it for the wedding, she was pretty psyched...
...don't give me a reason to go car hunting!

White on oxblood...EVERYTHING done, 130K, we bought it from the original owners back in 02 just after she graduated University.

 

[Taxi Driver]

What I was thinking, if you have a block in the need.........

Is this too far out west? 102mm

 

[gsxr]

To date, I have not heard of a single M119 bored to 102mm that lived a long, happy life.

 

[Taxi Driver]

To date, I have not heard of a single M119 bored to 102mm that lived a long, happy life.

Who did, and what pistons did they use?

 

[gsxr]

RENNtech allegedly built a few M119.97x with 102mm bores and they all failed with pretty low miles... information is sketchy though. I don't know of any 102mm block that is alive today and running well. I think RENNtech only built a handful, like 3 or 4 of them? Maybe samiam knows.

Pistons would have been custom, no idea who RENNtech had produce them. One of the engines allegedly had a head gasket failure and the block/pistons were OK. Austin (omegabenz) bought the block/pistons and sold them about 10 years ago. I thought I had photos saved but I can't find them now.

 

[Taxi Driver]

"One of the engines allegedly had a head gasket failure and the block/pistons were OK."

This will never end, it seems, if we do not take it all the way. About the headgaskets, I Believe
the only way to go, is a proper O-ringing, that is the only way to ensure total seal, as said//You?
OEM gasket for .5mm OD was 102mm across. Maybe some were tempted to use that on
101 or 102mm bore? If I ever have to lift the heads, O-ringing it will be.

 

[gsxr]

O-ringing requires machining both the block and head, correct? Sure would be nice if you could get an O-ring type head gasket that only required machining the heads. Much easier than pulling a motor out of a car, tearing it down, and then machining the block as well...

 

[Taxi Driver]

No no, that I was thinking also but when I a couple of months ago had a chat with the Machine shop
the guy there said: we send in the old gasket, they make a template and cut the gasketmaterial
they make it big enough around the cylinders to fit a "cut ring" made out of steel wich is placed loose on the block inside the gasket. when you tighten it the ring will "cut" into the head Surface and the gasketmaterial does the sealing of the water jackets and the oil feed hole.
The O-ring is not more than ~1.5mm , this they do to Turbo and rallye/race motors where you can not find steel gaskets. BTW they had one MB steelgasket on their list, for the M120!!!
how bout that?

Looking at the cyl. bores if you take 1mm off the wall it does not seem to much and plenty of
room for an O-ring, not so for a regular gasket with the folded over steel sealing ring.
The regular compression seal has to rely on quite a wide Surface wich is some 3mm wide
in this case there is no room for that and makes it unreliable to, as earlier practice was to
make a new steel fold. One disadvantage with the OEM gasket is, it's rounded edge closest
to the most critical area: the combustion chamber, there the cutting ring really work reliably.

 

[jouniu]

After long time something has happened.. There was many problems, first block went bad due machining errors. But so far this looks good. Note strong bearing caps in early .960, later versions bearing caps are much lighter. 5.6 M117 crank in place.

 

[Christian_K]

So this pistons are from Weossner? But they are 10.1 compression pistons, right?

 

[jouniu]

pistons are from wiseco and compression should be ~11.5

 

[jhodg5ck]

No no, that I was thinking also but when I a couple of months ago had a chat with the Machine shop
the guy there said: we send in the old gasket, they make a template and cut the gasketmaterial
they make it big enough around the cylinders to fit a "cut ring" made out of steel wich is placed loose on the block inside the gasket. when you tighten it the ring will "cut" into the head Surface and the gasketmaterial does the sealing of the water jackets and the oil feed hole.
The O-ring is not more than ~1.5mm , this they do to Turbo and rallye/race motors where you can not find steel gaskets. BTW they had one MB steelgasket on their list, for the M120!!!
how bout that?

Looking at the cyl. bores if you take 1mm off the wall it does not seem to much and plenty of
room for an O-ring, not so for a regular gasket with the folded over steel sealing ring.
The regular compression seal has to rely on quite a wide Surface wich is some 3mm wide
in this case there is no room for that and makes it unreliable to, as earlier practice was to
make a new steel fold. One disadvantage with the OEM gasket is, it's rounded edge closest
to the most critical area: the combustion chamber, there the cutting ring really work reliably.

I think MLS gaskets would allow us to push the boundary of cylinder wall thickness More so.. still waiting for them to become more cost effective. the MLS gasket for the M120 has been available for a long time.
I half wonder if Pagani has something to do with that.....

Jono

 

[gsxr]

I think MLS gaskets would allow us to push the boundary of cylinder wall thickness More so.. still waiting for them to become more cost effective. the MLS gasket for the M120 has been available for a long time. I half wonder if Pagani has something to do with that.....

What's the reputation of MLS on the M120 engine? And, how much space is there between cylinders on the M120 vs the M119...?

If it's been proven to work well... might be worth pursuing for M119 6L applications!

 

[jhodg5ck]

MLS per all the machinists I speak with is the end all be all of head gaskets. You want to build something Stupid Silly..yer gonna want an MLS gasket, end of story.

Everything new that's worth a damn is MLS becuase they are So Reliable.

http://mbworld.org/forums/attachmen...-engine-block-man-cave-coffee-table-image.jpg

M120 block for a Feel.

jono

 

[gsxr]

Just curious - what is the torque spec & procedure with MLS? Wouldn't be the same as with factory gaskets, right?

If MLS is the shizzle, someone should get the par-tay started.

 

[jhodg5ck]

IDk about torque spec, but I suspect the order is likely the same!

I've been talking to a couple gasket companies for Years now RE MLS. Last time I made a fresh round of "hey, is it reasonable yet...? was about a year ago. Suppose it's time to check in again! They already have my templates for everything we're doing here..

Jono

 

[Taxi Driver]

View attachment 54117View attachment 54118

After long time something has happened.. There was many problems, first block went bad due machining errors. But so far this looks good. Note strong bearing caps in early .960, later versions bearing caps are much lighter. 5.6 M117 crank in place.

Jouniu, very nice, what did you do to the crank? Was there any interfearance issues? Guess that are OEM rods? Looking forward...

 

[gsxr]

That's a .960 build, correct? Not a .97x?

:?:

 

[samiam44]

Jono,

For the MLS torque spec... see photo



Now really. Head bolts are torqued into a linear part of the yield range to maximize preload and get the utmost in fatigue life. The gasket material will change the spring rate between the clamp up, but the total load should be the same. Just a guess- you could always look at Aluminum block chevys.


M

 

[BigWillieStyle]

Today they use Ferroprint. Not the classic iron plasma spray. There is a Video from Mahle from German TV "Kabel 1" on YT that shows for some seconds this newer process.

I Think Molykote will work just fine.

Christian_K is correct.

Sorry to dig-up an old thread, it's not the brand so much as the coating by application.

www.woessner-kolben.de : "For Alusil bores, the pistons must first be coated with Molykote."

Btw, 10-years ago I don't think Molykote was readily available. Here's some background.

https://www.stle.org/images/pdf/STL... for Auto Applications_tlt article_Sept11.pdf

Nowadays, various coatings are used in automotive engineering to compensate deficiencies of bulk materials.Coatings can be used to improve wear resistance, corrosion resistance, appearance, adhesive properties, etc. For instance, Nikasil, Alusil or wire-arc sprayed iron coatings are used for reinforcement of cylinder bore walls and improved oil fi lm retention in aluminum engines. Other classical methods used for enhancing the tribological properties of various automotive components are chrome plating, ferritic nitro-carburation and phosphatation. From an automotive engineering perspective, whenever advancements in coatings are discussed, one often tends to focus exclusively on hard anti-wear coatings such as diamond-like carbon (DLC), boron nitride(BN), silicon carbide (SiC), titanium nitride (TiN),tungsten carbide (WC), etc. This is probably explained by the fact that, from the car owner’s perspective, an engine that wears prematurely is a much worse choice than a robust engine that has marginally higher fuel consumption.

In an internal combustion engine, around 15% of energy is lost due to friction.

Soft-sacrificial coatings represent a fundamentallydifferent philosophy in the development of anti-frictionand anti-wear coatings, asthe coating can be sacrificed in action while protectingthe coated parts.For example, molybdenumdisulfide (MoS2)coatings were pioneeredby Alfa Molykote afterWorld War II. Afteracquiring Molykote in1964, Dow Corning developedand manufactureda few lines of Molykotesolid lubricantcoatings. Molykote coatingsare based on MoS2 asthe main friction-reducingcomponent, but they may contain a number of other ingredients such as graphite, resin binder, corrosion inhibitor etc., which are required to control consistency, adhesion, corrosion resistance, appearance and other properties. A similar concept has been used in the development of EcoTough coatings for piston skirt by Federal-Mogul Corp.

History of Molykote




Note, I know other companies/competitors might manufacture a chemically comparable product. Unfortunately as of 10/22/2018 I'm not educated enough to clarify such analogous products by chemical composition with equivalent/better operational characteristics as supporting justification by application.



Dow Corning Molykote® D-10-GBL or D-88-GBL

https://samaro.fr/pdf/FT/MOLYKOTE_FT_D-10-GBL___FR_.pdf

Preface so to Speak or Intro Reading : https://prog.lmu.edu.ng/colleges_CMS/document/books/MCE544 - LECTURE 2.pdf

 

[John Green]

Hello all, over here in Australia we are looking at a 6.0 conversion to the M119 980 5.0lt from a W140. Have read heaps of the posts on the subject here, which is great, but also that means I now have a lot of questions:

1) Jouniu, did you get your engine finished? What series M119 did you start with and how did it all work out in the end?

2)Lots of talk about getting head gaskets made, but it looks like you can buy them genuine for not too much money?

HWA119 016 18 20 l/h
HWA119 016 20 20 r/h

Both are 72.91 euro, or am I missing something here

3) Big difference in piston skirt height between the ke-jetronic (119 960) at 73.8mm and LH (119 980) engines at 60.3mm. Anyone every work out whey. Our guess is that the technology to make a betters (read lighter) piston evolved with the engine.

4) has anyone had 100mm pistons for a 119 980 made, and who made them? We have started some discussions with companies like Wossner, but would need to send a sample first. If we found someone who had already had them made up (and they fitted and worked) then it would be so much easier for us.

5) Looking at the dBilas camshafts, most likely there "Sport" option, anyone used them and were the valve relives in the pistons enough?

6) Looking at using Haltech 2500 and a stand alone trans controller. Any thoughts?

Happy to share the build here as it progress's, at the moment it is an engine sitting in the corner, so nothing exciting to show.

 

[gsxr]

2) You are looking at prices for A1190161820 / 2020. The price for HWA1190161820 / 2020 is over €1000. You must use the 3-letter prefix.

3) The .960 has a tall-deck block. Different block height, different skirt height.

4) AFAIK, the .97x and .98x pistons should be the same.

@jhodg5ck / BlueRidgeMB may be able to provide some assistance.

 

[gerryvz]

The use of the shortened-deck block was so that the M119 as used in the 500E would properly fit under the hood.