MB/Sachs E500E Viscous Fan Clutch NLA, Aftermarket ACM Clutch NLA ---> Use W210.072 Fan Clutch?

[Jlaa]

I didn't come up with this idea (@gsxr thought of this super clever idea) but I thought I would document it here as he sure could use some help disseminating the vast knowledge he has in his head!

OK so the problem is .... The Mercedes viscous fan clutch in no longer avail. See below from this thread - Gerry's Observation

Dealer item is a Horton (which is related to Sachs) and is part number 119 200 01 22.

You are correct -- it DOES APPEAR THAT THE M119 FAN CLUTCH IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE FROM MB.

View attachment 111069View attachment 111070


There is a thread on the forum about an M104 clutch being used? Haven't read through it, but it's located here.

Also, there is a Chinese-made ACM fan clutch which some are saying works well, but requires a somewhat shorter center bolt.

I've been using the Chinese-made ACM fan clutch with a shorter bolt since 2016. It works well but is a little noisy (fan roaring) when cold. However, the problem is that the ACM fan clutch is NLA as well:

Related to the cooling problems I have at this moment, I am looking on the Web for the M119 ASM ACM fan clutch which has been discussed and recommended several times. I cannot find any supplier which can deliver this clutch at this moment.

Does anybody knows what (European) supplier can deliver such a clutch ?

@RobertK, I just checked AutohausAZ & FCP Euro here in US. Both said “unavailable” That’s disappointing. I bought my ACM from AutohauzAZ.

Currently, They are selling a Febi-Bilstein clutch. No idea about the quality. It’s getting harder by the day to get good quality parts for our E500Es

ECS is out of them too... Shame! I've had mine ACM for a while now, no complaints.

The w210 E420 (W210.072) came with the M119 engine in 1997. In 1998, the E430 used the M113 engine, but the 1997 E420 used the M119 engine, just like our w124 E500E. Further, the w210.072 also came with a viscous fan clutch. Here is the difference:



Note that the w210.072 fan clutch part number is 119-200-02-22. This MB part is available for $370 list price, and $270-ish at various online sources. The Sachs part number is 15-2100-027-032 and Amazon has it for $245.11. GSXR edit: See post #9 below with corrected Sachs part numbers for CW vs CCW rotation.

The w210.072 fan clutch attaches differently to the fan pulley than the w124.036 fan clutch. The w210.072 fan clutch threads on to the fan pulley via one big 36mm nut, whereas the w124.036 fan clutch uses a hex head bolt. To use the w210.072 fan clutch, one would need to procure the fan/alternator bracket from a w210.072, which is 119-150-17-70.



You can see the difference in the w124.036 fan pulley vs. the w210.072 fan pulley below. Note that the w210.72 fan clutch threads directly onto the exposed threads of the fan pulley shown below:



The only problem is that the fan/alternator bracket from the w210.072, 119-150-17-70, is also NLA. However, one can procure this from one's local pick'n'pull. I started looking for a 1997 E420 a week ago, and lo and behold one popped up close by to me within a couple of days.

To harvest the fan/alternator bracket, one needs to first remove the fan and clutch. A set of generic fan-clutch tools from ebay works:



Remove the thermostat housing, bend / Dremel some pipe thing out of the way (pipe exists on the E420 but not the w124 E500E), remove the electric smog pump (only on the 1997 E420), remove some bolts holding the alternator to the bracket, and then one can access the three bolts that hold in the fan / alternator bracket:



Then one will be rewarded with this:



Clean all this with some Simple Green HD Pro (safe for aluminum) in an ultrasonic cleaner and one should end up with some nice shiny bits:



I haven't tried this on my car yet, but it looks like it should work!

 

[bb1]

Bought 3 different ones for m119: MB, Meyle/Febi or something like that.. cheap one for 20€ of eBay.

All the same! Prints are same, Casting details, weight.. 100% same shit! If you pay 500€, 150€ or 20€

 

[gsxr]

Bought 3 different ones for m119: MB, Meyle/Febi or something like that.. cheap one for 20€ of eBay.

All the same! Prints are same, Casting details, weight.. 100% same shit! If you pay 500€, 150€ or 20€

@bb1, you are talking about the original 500E clutch with the center mounting bolt, correct? If so - this doesn't surprise me. I suspect they are all coming out of the same factory nowadays and put into different boxes with different brand names. I wouldn't want to use any of them on my cars.

 

[bb1]

@bb1, you are talking about the original 500E clutch with the center mounting bolt, correct? If so - this doesn't surprise me. I suspect they are all coming out of the same factory nowadays and put into different boxes with different brand names. I wouldn't want to use any of them on my cars.

Yes, original m119 ones..

 

[195910]

@Jlaa interesting topic, this could be an alternative if measurements confirm.
Do you see other benefits in this? lighter components or more efficient cooling?

 

[Jlaa]

@Jlaa interesting topic, this could be an alternative if measurements confirm.
Do you see other benefits in this? lighter components or more efficient cooling?

I don't know ---- I thought I would post this approach here as it would potentially solve the problem of MB-branded E500E fan clutches being NLA.

That said, the w210.072 fan looks pretty similar to the w124.036 fan (both are 9-blade straight-blade designs w pretty much the same diameter) with two exceptions:

1. The w124.036 fan has a "notch" at the tips of each blade, whereas the w210.072 fan does not
2. The w124.036 fan is made of metal, whereas the w210.072 fan is made of plastic (lighter? less slippage with viscous clutch?)

I will point out, though that the fan/alternator bracket from the w210.072, 119-150-17-70, is probably required if one wants to ditch the mechanical fan clutch altogether for an electric fan .... because the w210.072 fan bracket has a shorter nose on the fan pulley, and allows for more space to mount electric fans (thread here...)

 

[gsxr]

@Jlaa interesting topic, this could be an alternative if measurements confirm.
Do you see other benefits in this? lighter components or more efficient cooling?

There's no improvement from the 210 fan bracket itself, just the ability to use a commonly-available OE Sachs/Horton clutch. The advantage is those clutches are available for <$300 USD and are much easier to R&R compared to the bulky 119.97x clutch. The disadvantage is, the skinny little mini clutches have short lifespans. They leak fluid and then won't engage/cool, so you have to replace it. Probably 7-10 years is max lifespan? Maybe? Probably less.

The big improvement for more efficient cooling is installing an OE Mercedes electric fan with PWM controller. That will provide massive airflow at low vehicle speeds / low engine RPM, which is unpossible with a viscous clutch.

 

[maw1124]

The big improvement for more efficient cooling is installing an OE Mercedes electric fan with PWM controller. That will provide massive airflow at low vehicle speeds / low engine RPM, which is unpossible with a viscous clutch.

I’m pretty sure this, and getting rid of the noise that comes with the loud ass fan, is why anyone would do this. The W210 fan clutches, brackets, whatever, might be available without the PnP trouble @Jlaa went through to get his.

maw

 

[Jlaa]

Putting this here for posterity ---- before @gsxr and I forget .....
There are a lot of Worldpac / SSF websites that show interchange equivalents that are supposedly all equal ... but they are not! They show these fan clutches:

SACHS PN	MB Part Number	Direction According to Sachs PDF Catalog
2100-027-001	119-200-02-22 (210.072)	CLOCKWISE
2100-027-002	113-200-00-22	COUNTERCLOCKWISE
2100-027-031		CLOCKWISE
2100-027-032		COUNTERCLOCKWISE
2100-027-131		CLOCKWISE

Attached to this post is the pdf of the Sachs application catalog.
Note this part of the Sachs catalog that denotes the suffix --- R for clockwise and L for counter-clockwise:



Note that the M119 powered cars need CLOCKWISE fan clutches and the M113 powered cars need COUNTERCLOCKWISE fan clutches if the car is an E430, but need CLOCKWISE fan clutches if the car is na E55. Very confusing!



So I think for our M119 E500E we would want to use: Sachs 2100-027-131.
This means the fan clutch I got from the pick'n'pull, which was installed on an M119 powered 1997 W420, is the wrong fan clutch because this one is a counter-clockwise fan clutch!

 

[gsxr]

Thanks for consolidating all this info, Jlaa! I cannot fathom why some M113's have fans which spin opposite directions.

 

[pablo2696]

+2 years ago I bought a Febi fan clutch and when it arrived it was labeled BorgWarner. So far so good and it was only $110.

 

[natejgreene9871]

Anybody tried refilling your original fan clutch with silicon oil?

 

[emerydc8]

Three great videos by Cousin Pierre. Interesting comment in the last video (6:25) about his old friend's 500E running at 100 C and it being too hot, which will eventually cause oil leaks and wiring harness failures. He believes 100 C is unacceptable and he thought the 90 C they got with the ACM clutch was closer to where it should be for this car.

 

[gsxr]

Anybody tried refilling your original fan clutch with silicon oil?

The original M119 Sachs/Horton clutch almost never leaks oil, so refilling it won't do anything. Complete waste of time for the M119.97x clutch. I did this once, before I figured out the problem wasn't lack of oil. I believe the M117 clutch is the same design, as shown in all 3 of the videos above. I opened up an M119 clutch back in 2012 and posted photos to my website. Pretty sure we discussed this video previously on the forum.

The "thin" fan clutch design used on all 4/5/6-cylinder cars (M103, M104, OM60x, etc) are the ones which leak all the fluid out, and can be resurrected by refilling. The catch is, you don't know how much fluid was lost, nor how much to put in. The result can be a clutch which is engaged almost all the time if too much fluid is added. BT, DT. The "thin" clutches are NOT what Pierre is showing above.

I do not agree, at all, with refilling the big V8 clutches as shown in Pierre's video. This isn't fixing the root cause of the problem with the clutch.

 

[gsxr]

Interesting comment in the last video (6:25) about his old friend's 500E running at 100 C and it being too hot, which will eventually cause oil leaks and wiring harness failures. He believes 100 C is unacceptable and he thought the 90 C they got with the ACM clutch was closer to where it should be for this car.

Yeah, I don't agree with this either. 100C is absolutely acceptable. Is it preferred? No, but it's acceptable, and perfectly normal as Mercedes designed!

If you want to run cooler, do the electric fan conversion - not aftermarket, but the OE brushless fans with a PWM controller. This might keep operating temps in the ~90C ballpark most of the time, or at least a bit lower than a mechanical fan, especially at low RPM and low vehicle speed.

 

[emerydc8]

I have the J Forgione bolt-adjustable bi-metallic strip on both cars. The disadvantage is they don’t warm up as fast in the winter, but the cars can easily handle stop-and-go traffic when it is 113 out.

Anyone know how you can tell if your clutch is low on oil? Will you even see evidence of the leak?

 

[gsxr]

Anyone know how you can tell if your clutch is low on oil? Will you even see evidence of the leak?

On the skinny clutches, yes, the face of the clutch gets damp with oil, which collects dust & dirt. The result is the entire front surface of the clutch is FILTHY with gunk. I've never seen an M119 Sachs/Horton clutch do this. You'd have to store an M119 clutch face-down (verboten per the FSM) for weeks or months to get the oil to leak out.

 

[TerryA]

On the skinny clutches, yes, the face of the clutch gets damp with oil, which collects dust & dirt. The result is the entire front surface of the clutch is FILTHY with gunk. I've never seen an M119 Sachs/Horton clutch do this. You'd have to store an M119 clutch face-down (verboten per the FSM) for weeks or months to get the oil to leak out.

I ran across my removed M119 fan clutch the other day while trying to get to some tools on my messy work bench. I guess I should check my old clutch to see how it’s stored. Face up/down?

Right now I’m running the cheap Chinese ACM clutch which so far is doing it job.

 

[Trae]

Some years ago, I tried refilling my fan clutch with oil, but mine did not engage. So, I replaced with a new one at that time. Would be great if someone here had a SUCCESSFUL fan clutch oil replacement story!

 

[gsxr]

Some years ago, I tried refilling my fan clutch with oil, but mine did not engage. So, I replaced with a new one at that time. Would be great if someone here had a SUCCESSFUL fan clutch oil replacement story!

Due to the design, you will almost never "resurrect" an OE M119/M120 fan clutch by adding oil to it. As noted above, the M119/M120 Sachs/Horton clutches do leak or otherwise "lose" oil.

 

[Trae]

Yep, but had to give it a go anyway. . .didn't work.

 

[Phoenix127]

Regarding the original Horton Fan clutch I see a number of rebuild kits on various parts websites. Has anyone attempted to rebuild an original fan clutch or found a kit to do so? Also, how does one remove the clutch from the fan? I have removed the four 10mm bolts and the clutch seems stuck inside the fan. Don’t want to beat on it. Is there a trick? Thanks for the help.

 

[gsxr]

Regarding the original Horton Fan clutch I see a number of rebuild kits on various parts websites.

I've never seen this. Do you have a link to one of the kits for sale?

Has anyone attempted to rebuild an original fan clutch or found a kit to do so?

The M119 fan clutch cannot, repeat CAN NOT be rebuilt. There is nothing which wears out. If it doesn't engage properly, it's a calibration issue, unless the bearing fails or the clutch is otherwise physically damaged - in which case it's a paperweight.

Also, how does one remove the clutch from the fan? I have removed the four 10mm bolts and the clutch seems stuck inside the fan. Don’t want to beat on it. Is there a trick? Thanks for the help.

Once the bolts are removed the clutch will separate from the blade. You may need to gently tap it with a soft hammer (rubber/plastic) to get the 2 apart. Once apart you can clean up the surfaces so it slides together easily.

 

[195910]

I've never seen this. Do you have a link to one of the kits for sale?



The M119 fan clutch cannot, repeat CAN NOT be rebuilt. There is nothing which wears out. If it doesn't engage properly, it's a calibration issue, unless the bearing fails or the clutch is otherwise physically damaged - in which case it's a paperweight.



Once the bolts are removed the clutch will separate from the blade. You may need to gently tap it with a soft hammer (rubber/plastic) to get the 2 apart. Once apart you can clean up the surfaces so it slides together easily.

Hi Dave,

I haven't dealt with the M119 fan clutch since 2008/2009 with the 91 500E, but I remember there was a seal in the middle. was that the bearing seal?
I remember we bought the fan clutch fluid from the toyota dealership ( once again, land cruiser and the 2JZ engine used visco clutch), and injected the clutch through the removable pin. It made a mess and sounded like a truck so we decided to get a new Sachs visco clutch.

 

[gsxr]

I haven't dealt with the M119 fan clutch since 2008/2009 with the 91 500E, but I remember there was a seal in the middle. was that the bearing seal?

In the center, yes, that's the bearing seal - not related to clutch operation. The bearing is not replaceable, AFAIK. I've also never seen one fail on an M119 clutch.

I remember we bought the fan clutch fluid from the toyota dealership ( once again, land cruiser and the 2JZ engine used visco clutch), and injected the clutch through the removable pin. It made a mess and sounded like a truck so we decided to get a new Sachs visco clutch.

Refilling silicone fluid can resurrect a clutch which has had the fluid leak out. However only the "skinny" clutches used on the 4/5/6-cylinder cars often leak fluid. This method works well on those clutches, but is difficult and messy, and if you add too much fluid the clutch will be "over engaged"... roaring when you don't want it to, i.e. in cold winter temps.

The M119 clutch, IME, never leaks fluid unless it was stored face down for an extended period and the fluid leaked out the pin on the front. When mounted vertically on the engine, these clutches do not leak. Every one I've encountered that didn't engage properly, was due to calibration, not lack of fluid. They are a very robust design!

 

[195910]

In the center, yes, that's the bearing seal - not related to clutch operation. The bearing is not replaceable, AFAIK. I've also never seen one fail on an M119 clutch.



Refilling silicone fluid can resurrect a clutch which has had the fluid leak out. However only the "skinny" clutches used on the 4/5/6-cylinder cars often leak fluid. This method works well on those clutches, but is difficult and messy, and if you add too much fluid the clutch will be "over engaged"... roaring when you don't want it to, i.e. in cold winter temps.

The M119 clutch, IME, never leaks fluid unless it was stored face down for an extended period and the fluid leaked out the pin on the front. When mounted vertically on the engine, these clutches do not leak. Every one I've encountered that didn't engage properly, was due to calibration, not lack of fluid. They are a very robust design!

Do you mean calibrating the bi-metal strip ?

 

[gsxr]

Do you mean calibrating the bi-metal strip ?

Correct.

 

[Phoenix127]

I've never seen this. Do you have a link to one of the kits for sale?



The M119 fan clutch cannot, repeat CAN NOT be rebuilt. There is nothing which wears out. If it doesn't engage properly, it's a calibration issue, unless the bearing fails or the clutch is otherwise physically damaged - in which case it's a paperweight.



Once the bolts are removed the clutch will separate from the blade. You may need to gently tap it with a soft hammer (rubber/plastic) to get the 2 apart. Once apart you can clean up the surfaces so it slides together easily.

This is a Horton fan clutch rebuild kit. Certainly not applicable to M119 but perhaps they offer another? https://enginepartssuperstore.com/C...dswkp_PHWTopsi_HH2kPAXMV_igQOKRIaAn9-EALw_wcB

 

[Alphasud40]

As gsxr has stated these fan clutches do not fail. You can install an aftermarket unit but they do not work correctly. They will however keep the engine cool and the A/C head pressures down if you are willing to live with fan roar and the parasitic power loss that comes with a hyperactive fan clutch.

 

[gsxr]

This is a Horton fan clutch rebuild kit. Certainly not applicable to M119 but perhaps they offer another? https://enginepartssuperstore.com/C...dswkp_PHWTopsi_HH2kPAXMV_igQOKRIaAn9-EALw_wcB

Ah, now I see... that's a rebuild kit for an industrial clutch of some sort, designed to be rebuilt. Nothing similar exists for the M119/M120 clutches, which were designed to be replaced, not repaired.

 

[gsxr]

There are a lot of Worldpac / SSF websites that show interchange equivalents that are supposedly all equal ... but they are not!

So I think for our M119 E500E we would want to use: Sachs 2100-027-131.
This means the fan clutch I got from the pick'n'pull, which was installed on an M119 powered 1997 W420, is the wrong fan clutch because this one is a counter-clockwise fan clutch!

Piling on to this epic thread by @Jlaa. My 210.072 fan clutch bearing failed last year, which is a somewhat unusual failure. Turns out my Pick+Pull spare was a wrong rotation clutch (-xx2 Sachs number). D'OH. Well, that's no help. I had another spare that is dead, the fluid leaked out but the bearing was good, so I installed that for a while.

A couple months ago, AutohausAZ had a 5% off coupon and claimed to have the correct Sachs clutch, 2100-027-131. Great! Ordered that, but was wondering why no other vendors had the same clutch available. Perhaps AHAZ had some mystery inventory. NOPE, they delivered 2100-027-032 instead, backwards rotation. I returned it and explained that their listing is wrong. Screenshot below. Of course they never updated their website interchange data, and someone else will likely end up with the wrong clutch on their car.

In the meantime, RockAuto claimed to have ONE left of the correct -131 clutch. I rolled the dice and won, they shipped the correct one directly from ZF/Sachs. I don't see any other aftermarket vendors. On the plus side, this clutch is still available new from Mercedes and it's only a few bucks more than Sachs was. MB of Laredo has the Genuine, correct OE clutch for $250 plus shipping. The concern is that Sachs/ZF may have discontinued production and once remaining MB inventor is depleted, we'll all be converting to W204 electric fans with PWM controllers.

 

[B16 NYK]

Piling on to this epic thread by @Jlaa. My 210.072 fan clutch bearing failed last year, which is a somewhat unusual failure. Turns out my Pick+Pull spare was a wrong rotation clutch (-xx2 Sachs number). D'OH. Well, that's no help. I had another spare that is dead, the fluid leaked out but the bearing was good, so I installed that for a while.

A couple months ago, AutohausAZ had a 5% off coupon and claimed to have the correct Sachs clutch, 2100-027-131. Great! Ordered that, but was wondering why no other vendors had the same clutch available. Perhaps AHAZ had some mystery inventory. NOPE, they delivered 2100-027-032 instead, backwards rotation. I returned it and explained that their listing is wrong. Screenshot below. Of course they never updated their website interchange data, and someone else will likely end up with the wrong clutch on their car.

In the meantime, RockAuto claimed to have ONE left of the correct -131 clutch. I rolled the dice and won, they shipped the correct one directly from ZF/Sachs. I don't see any other aftermarket vendors. On the plus side, this clutch is still available new from Mercedes and it's only a few bucks more than Sachs was. MB of Laredo has the Genuine, correct OE clutch for $250 plus shipping. The concern is that Sachs/ZF may have discontinued production and once remaining MB inventor is depleted, we'll all be converting to W204 electric fans with PWM controllers.



View attachment 200490

Are we saying that for our E500E cars, the Sachs 2100 027 131 (which appears to be available in Europe) is similar in operation to oe, making it the current 'one to buy'?

 

[gsxr]

Are we saying that for our E500E cars, the Sachs 2100 027 131 (which appears to be available in Europe) is similar in operation to oe, making it the current 'one to buy'?

NO NO NO!! Sachs 2100 027 131 is a clutch that is specifically for the M119.985 engine found in the 210.072 chassis. It will not fit the E500E engines, the mounting is completely different.

To use this clutch in the E500E you must also obtain the mounting bracket used on that engine, which is NLA and not particularly easy to locate used. Jlaa snagged the mounting bracket from a junkyard 1997 E420.

Sachs 2100 027 131 (for 1997 E420, E50, E60) is only available in USA from the Mercedes dealer. Be careful if buying in Europe, likely the same issues apply where you may receive a backwards-rotation clutch just like I did.

 

[B16 NYK]

NO NO NO!! Sachs 2100 027 131 is a clutch that is specifically for the M119.985 engine found in the 210.072 chassis. It will not fit the E500E engines, the mounting is completely different.

To use this clutch in the E500E you must also obtain the mounting bracket used on that engine, which is NLA and not particularly easy to locate used. Jlaa snagged the mounting bracket from a junkyard 1997 E420.

Sachs 2100 027 131 (for 1997 E420, E50, E60) is only available in USA from the Mercedes dealer. Be careful if buying in Europe, likely the same issues apply where you may receive a backwards-rotation clutch just like I did.

Many thanks