Privacy concerns: Is there any risk posting your VIN or license plate?

[gsxr]

Posts below moved from original thread at this link, which sparked the question below:

... i am not comfortable posting my VIN on a public forum, but i will provide to anyone that requests the number i also have a autocheck from when i bought the car.

Just curious, what is your concern about posting the VIN publicly? I've seen other people reluctant to post VINs and I never understood why. There's almost no way the VIN could be used to obtain your personal information, only the city/state where titled/registered shows on AutoCheck or CarFax...

:?:

 

[KDAWG97M3]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Pearl Black/Black, 125kmi, $14,500 (Atlanta, GA)

i think the State of Georgia collects more info than just that...my address and my name is tied..i have no issues giving it to individuals, just dont post pics of my License plate or vin...someone could technically take my vin and write a bill of sale out of state and claim they owned it...what would stop someone from doing that? i feel the vin is the SSN of the car..you don't post your SSN do you? just my $0.02

and the cost of this hobby is crazy..i am going to consolidate down to 6 to manage it better..

 

[gsxr]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Pearl Black/Black, 125kmi, $14,500 (Atlanta, GA)

The state does collect more information, and yes your name/address in their systems since it's on the title/registration documents. But I don't think anyone can obtain that information from the VIN alone. At least, I've never heard of this being done. If it was common, NOBODY would post VIN's! Writing a bill of sale with a VIN is pretty useless without the title, assuming your state requires an original title to transfer ownership (most do, with some exceptions in certain states, and/or for cars older than a particular model year).

The license plate thing I totally disagree about, btw. If the car is driven in public, anyone can take a photo of the car + plate, and post it on the interwebs (i.e., from a cars & coffee event, or just driving down the freeway). Again, there's no way anyone can obtain personal information from the plate. I do understand being careful these days though. I'm not trying to argue, just wondering what the rationale was. Thanks for sharing!

 

[Glasgo_Chris]

Re: FS: 1992 500E, Pearl Black/Black, 125kmi, $14,500 (Atlanta, GA)

Their is no risk with vin or plates being posted. Hell, my avatar on 6speedonline is my vanity license plate and has been for years. Anyways, GLWS on the car. Seems like an awesome price if everything is in order.

 

[2phast]

At one point in time, you could take a plate number into the DMV and pay something like $10 and get the address. Thieves, exe's and haters abused this and I believe it was rescinded. This is probably where the "don't show your license plate" legend came from.

You can't do anything with a VIN, DMV can't even look up a car by a VIN number alone.

 

[makemann]

I always find it funny that people take such extremes to hide their plate in posted photos. I can only imagine how uncomfortable they must be when driving in public. [emoji28]

There is something called the Driver's Privacy Protection Act of 1994 that shields us from bad people getting our personal information based on our VIN or license plates to break into our garages to take our cherished cars.

Here's a funny article from Doug DeMuro, a former 500E owner: http://jalopnik.com/why-do-we-always-blur-license-plates-on-the-internet-1691298199

And here's the law: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2721

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[kwontumspeed]

In Georgia no information is tied to the tag or VIN because of the privacy act, at least not from a "public records" perspective. Only the appropriate people can access this. It's also getting sticky in Georgia when it applies to police with tag readers and what they're allowed to do, or not do, with that information.

 

[gsxr]

Here's a funny article from Doug DeMuro, a former 500E owner: http://jalopnik.com/why-do-we-always-blur-license-plates-on-the-internet-1691298199

That was awesome. Thanks for the link!

 

[makemann]

In Georgia no information is tied to the tag or VIN because of the privacy act, at least not from a "public records" perspective. Only the appropriate people can access this. It's also getting sticky in Georgia when it applies to police with tag readers and what they're allowed to do, or not do, with that information.

It's a Federal law--same in all states. Fortunately, it's not exclusive to GA.

 

[ubodepaode]

I never understood this either. You don't drive with plates or even VIN number covered up, so why care if it's online or in a picture somewhere. But people are afraid of all sorts of things, so I guess it shouldn't be too surprising.

 

[Maui]

Sadly federal law is why dealers often throw out maintenance records because they usually have the name and phone number of the previous owner. It's easier to toss the records than to black out the owner's info.

 

[makemann]

There's even a website just for the FINGER !

 

[Zuffenhausen]

I copyrighted my VIN, the state cannot even use it without my written permission. It has a $50k trespass fee each time it is used

 

[Lowman]

well..i totally am one of the dudes that hide my cars "number plates" on pictures posted.I try all i can to not show the number plates...
This may come from the possibility of the car beeing stolen..And one of my cars were actually stolen ..because of the Vin number and number plate beeing handed over to the wrong people.

And the number plate here in Norway can provide you the owners phone number..full name and adress..so if you have the car at your adress where you live..then its alot easier for thieve to seek out the car.
So its just a side effect of actually have experienced your car beeing stolen because of it.

Obiously everyone can see your plates on the street..but i think its a different ball game when it comes to pictures on the internet...alot of people can see it..and the picture aint "moving"...so alot of time can be put into finding out stuff about both car and owner..and the thieves could make a move from there.

And as you may kknow..i live in Norway..and im not saying there is "more" thefts here in Norway...but there aint the same amount of these special cars here..and they ..or at least the Ford Rs cars im also into...is a high risk car to own..and the mercedes is no less risk.

so that is my reason for hiding number plates n vin numbers.

cheers.

 

[gsxr]

I know in Europe things are different - seems that almost all cars listed for sale in Europe do not provide the VIN. In the USA, it's the opposite... shoot, eBay (in USA) requires the VIN to list a car on their site!

 

[Lowman]

yeah i see..

good thing im not listing the car for sale on ebay then "giggles"

 

[gerryvz]

Look, every car in the US has the VIN plainly displayed on an engraved plate that is on the driver's side at the base of the windshield. It's plainly and clearly available for any thief/hooligan/forger who bothers to bend over to read it and write it down, to have.

And i regularly see that the VIN or license plate number is often etched/engraved on the window glass of cars in Europe.

This whole idea of hiding VINs and license plate numbers is a complete paranoid fallacy.

I agree with the Makemeister ... it must be mighty uncomfortable for people who like to "protect" their VIN and license plate information to actually DRIVE their car in PUBLIC. My goodness, what about the exploding number of police automated "license plate readers" out there that record and "run" license plates of every passing car, looking for stolen car "hits" based on plate numbers?

I guess the only reasonable remedy to this dilemma would be to:

- Remove your license plates, or install fake/other vehicles' plates on your vehicle to disguise its identity
- file off and/or remove every VIN stamp and sticker on your vehicle, including engine, transmission and steering box VINs as recorded in the Mercedes-Benz EPC

Sounds like it could be an interesting business opportunity for some enterprising soul here on the forum.....

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[makemann]

I've just ordered my new personalized plate...



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[Zuffenhausen]

I truly doubt anyone on this site actually owns their car anyway.

 

[Stevester 500E]

On the subject of vin numbers, when it the list of USA e500e vins going to become public on this site?

 

[SG-Motorsports]

I agree with what you guys say that it's public info when you're driving around and it seems a little foolish to be so guarded, but not many people are pulling up to your car and taking snapshots of your VIN plate in the windshield. My opinion is 'why put it out there'? I see no benefit to posting my VIN or License plate online, so why risk giving out ANY bit of personal information that can be googled with no effort.

The only benefit I see is so Gerry can make his lists, which is no doubt why he's pouring on the passive aggressive sarcasm. I have no doubt that all the record keeping Gerry has done over the years has helped a lot of people to track the history of vehicles, but I'm not gonna go out of my way make that kind of info so easily available. Like the OP said, I wouldn't have a problem sending it to an individual.

Yes, chances are very good that nothing would ever come of it. However I have a perfect example of how easily personal info can be obtained with just a VIN. Just today I was trying to get some info for a parts car I purchased about 5 years ago and never transferred the title. I have since lost that title and am now having a hell of a time getting rid of the car. Since there was no other personal info left in the car from the previous owner that I could find, I have no idea what any of his contact info would be, including his name. Since I'm trying to file for a lost title, I called my local licensing agency with only the VIN for info. The nice lady I talked to gave me the last known name, address, phone number and title number for the last known owner. I googled the address and it's exactly where I bought the car.

So there you go, not so private after all. Do you guys think this was a fluke and the lady gave me the info by mistake or because I buy way too many cars and she knows me? I honestly don't know the law, but it sure seemed way to easy to get that much info from just a VIN.

 

[2phast]

I agree with what you guys say that it's public info when you're driving around and it seems a little foolish to be so guarded, but not many people are pulling up to your car and taking snapshots of your VIN plate in the windshield. My opinion is 'why put it out there'? I see no benefit to posting my VIN or License plate online, so why risk giving out ANY bit of personal information that can be googled with no effort.

The only benefit I see is so Gerry can make his lists, which is no doubt why he's pouring on the passive aggressive sarcasm. I have no doubt that all the record keeping Gerry has done over the years has helped a lot of people to track the history of vehicles, but I'm not gonna go out of my way make that kind of info so easily available. Like the OP said, I wouldn't have a problem sending it to an individual.

Yes, chances are very good that nothing would ever come of it. However I have a perfect example of how easily personal info can be obtained with just a VIN. Just today I was trying to get some info for a parts car I purchased about 5 years ago and never transferred the title. I have since lost that title and am now having a hell of a time getting rid of the car. Since there was no other personal info left in the car from the previous owner that I could find, I have no idea what any of his contact info would be, including his name. Since I'm trying to file for a lost title, I called my local licensing agency with only the VIN for info. The nice lady I talked to gave me the last known name, address, phone number and title number for the last known owner. I googled the address and it's exactly where I bought the car.

So there you go, not so private after all. Do you guys think this was a fluke and the lady gave me the info by mistake or because I buy way too many cars and she knows me? I honestly don't know the law, but it sure seemed way to easy to get that much info from just a VIN.

That kind of data is not supposed to be given out anymore, so its pretty safe to assume the person who gave you that data was in violation of the Drivers Privacy Protection Act of 1994. This isn't the first time I have heard of this happening and its hit and miss depending upon who you might be speaking with at the Licensing center. Not too long ago, I was in a local licensing center and was getting tabs, mentioned a plate I saw (Mixalot) and the person at the counter punched it in her computer, we chatted about it and she asked if I wanted his address so I could go get a autograph (yea right). I said no of course, but its just another example of what should not of happened.

As a rule of thumb, don't register your car to your home address, register it to a mail box (get one at the UPS store). Well worth the investment and piece of mind.

 

[Lowman]

And i regularly see that the VIN or license plate number is often etched/engraved on the window glass of cars in Europe.

This whole idea of hiding VINs and license plate numbers is a complete paranoid fallacy.


Cheers,
Gerry

There aint no vin number engraved on the bottom of the windshield.

And it aint paranoid fallacy.

People are different,and some dont mind exposing the number plate and vin on the internet..but some do want to limit what info is available out there.
Its not about NOT ever exposing the number plate...thats not the case at all.Its just about limiting the exposure when its not fucking needed!

 

[nocfn]

My Toyota, dodge and Kia have engraved windows with vin. Both MB pre-date my others but there is dash placards visible on both through the windscreen.

 

[Lowman]

I guess it's an American thing ,cause for Europe ,it's not

 

[Stevester 500E]

Gerry,
Is your data on E500E vins, etc. ever going to be posted on this site for members to view?

Look, every car in the US has the VIN plainly displayed on an engraved plate that is on the driver's side at the base of the windshield. It's plainly and clearly available for any thief/hooligan/forger who bothers to bend over to read it and write it down, to have.

And i regularly see that the VIN or license plate number is often etched/engraved on the window glass of cars in Europe.

This whole idea of hiding VINs and license plate numbers is a complete paranoid fallacy.

I agree with the Makemeister ... it must be mighty uncomfortable for people who like to "protect" their VIN and license plate information to actually DRIVE their car in PUBLIC. My goodness, what about the exploding number of police automated "license plate readers" out there that record and "run" license plates of every passing car, looking for stolen car "hits" based on plate numbers?

I guess the only reasonable remedy to this dilemma would be to:

- Remove your license plates, or install fake/other vehicles' plates on your vehicle to disguise its identity
- file off and/or remove every VIN stamp and sticker on your vehicle, including engine, transmission and steering box VINs as recorded in the Mercedes-Benz EPC

Sounds like it could be an interesting business opportunity for some enterprising soul here on the forum.....

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Lowman]

I've just ordered my new personalized plate...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[gerryvz]

The only benefit I see is so Gerry can make his lists, which is no doubt why he's pouring on the passive aggressive sarcasm. I have no doubt that all the record keeping Gerry has done over the years has helped a lot of people to track the history of vehicles, but I'm not gonna go out of my way make that kind of info so easily available. Like the OP said, I wouldn't have a problem sending it to an individual.

Wrong assumption, actually.

I have NEVER made any sort of blanket call for VIN numbers of folks' cars here. If a VIN number is posted in a "FOR SALE" ad then I have recorded it in the past, but I have not as a matter of course asked or stressed that folks should post their VIN numbers here on the site. Any VIN number that is posted, is only posted at the owner's decision/discretion.

Over the past few years, and especially the past few months -- I have not even had much time to even be on this site, because I'm traveling 50% of the time with my job. Literally there are 250+ threads -- many of them "FOR SALE" threads for cars -- that I have not even looked at yet because I have not had the time.

So to make a blanket statement/accusation/assumption that I am somehow trying to drive folks to post their VIN numbers so that I can somehow suck them up into my database is not very accurate, and more importantly not very appreciated. The inference that I'm up to no good and recording VINs for purely selfish reasons impugns both my intent and motives, and is not accurate.

I began "recording" VINs that popped up on 500Ecstasy about 12-13 years ago, and recording PDFs of eBay and Autotrader listings of cars for sale. I was much more aggressive about this in the past than I have been for the past 5 or so years, to be honest. And now that most cars (along with their VIN numbers) are being recorded here in the FOR SALE section, there is better documentation/discussion of them than a simple notation in my database.

It is inferences and accusations like SG-Motorsports' above that completely rile me up to the point of "WTF am I doing even spending the time and money I do in running this site?". I have never used this information in my own database in anything other than an upright and factual manner, posting it when a car comes up for sale or contributing to a discussion, or answering a private enquiry when someone has questions about a particular car that they are considering buying or looking at.

In the past, in a few cases, I have gotten belligerant and used factual information when a seller makes obviously wrong and/or demonstrably fraudulent claims pertaining to a vehicle's condition, mileage, or accident damage history IF I have definitive proof that what they are claiming is wrong, or they are deliberately hiding something. I see no wrong in doing this, and it has not been a regular occurrence.

Stevester500E: In terms of the comprehensive list of Worldwide and US VINs of E500E models ... and when it will be available on this site ...

I'll be honest with all of you. Probably never. This seems to be a very contentious and sensitive issue. Posting this information could open a can of worms, and could further the already "out there" perception among some folks that I am up to no good with my collection of information. Which again, is very very limited these days due to other priorities in my life. I have been going for stretches of up to a week at a time without even logging onto this site.

As of November 30, 2015, I will have owned and run this site for 7 years. And I have considered myself a part of the worldwide E500E community since August of 2003, which was a month before I purchased my own car. I would have hoped that over the past 12+ years, my actions and statements would have demonstrated my intent. I guess that is not the case, at least with certain individuals. Wow.

I have to admit, and I'll just say it ... I am very offended and pissed off by the above statements. I guess it doesn't help that my dad died two days ago here in Seattle, and my father in law passed away last night in Bend, OR, so I'm a bit emotionally ripped up right now not to mention separated from my family (who are en route to Bend). My kids lost both of their grandfathers in less than 48 hours. So excuse my vehemence ... to a degree.

But when I'm over the emotion that's happening right now in my life, I'm still going to be plenty offended and pissed off.

Cheers from Seattle,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

... My opinion is 'why put it out there'? I see no benefit to posting my VIN or License plate online, so why risk giving out ANY bit of personal information that can be googled with no effort.

To clarify my viewpoint: For my personal cars which are not for sale, I would not post the VIN publicly... as you said, why put it out there? I'm less concerned about the license plate thing, as the Jalopnik article discussed. However, when someone is ACTIVELY SELLING a car... I don't quite see the issue with keeping the VIN under wraps. Not to mention it saves the seller the hassle of having to send the VIN to every tire-kicker. When the car goes up for sale publicly, the VIN should go public as well. Just my $0.02.

I guess it's an American thing ,cause for Europe ,it's not

Yes, it's a USA / North America thing. Our late W124 cars have a metal VIN tag attached to the leading edge of the dash up against the windshield glass, and there is a "viewing hole" in the lower part of the windshield to make it visible externally. The metal tag used to be on the A-pillar on early 124's but this apparently was too easy to remove or replace, the one on the dash requires several hours of labor to access if someone wanted to remove/replace it. I don't know if European-spec cars ever had either of these metal VIN tags.

 

[Lowman]

Yes, it's a USA / North America thing.
I don't know if European-spec cars ever had either of these metal VIN tags.

hey there dude

no european spec cars..or(other cars than mercedes for that matter) did not have this vin tag in the bottom of the windscreen.
But later cars..whatever make....some of them had it from around early 2001...2002ish...then some manufacturers started to put an aditional vin plate up where you described.
But Mercedes never had it ..and still dont have it in the european spec cars.
At least not here in Norway

 

[Stevester 500E]

Gerry,
I understand. All your hard work and DIY post are greatly appreciated.

...Stevester500E: In terms of the comprehensive list of Worldwide and US VINs of E500E models ... and when it will be available on this site ...

I'll be honest with all of you. Probably never........
Gerry

 

[nocfn]

Indeed!!

 

[SG-Motorsports]

Wrong assumption, actually.

I have NEVER made any sort of blanket call for VIN numbers of folks' cars here. If a VIN number is posted in a "FOR SALE" ad then I have recorded it in the past, but I have not as a matter of course asked or stressed that folks should post their VIN numbers here on the site. Any VIN number that is posted, is only posted at the owner's decision/discretion.

Over the past few years, and especially the past few months -- I have not even had much time to even be on this site, because I'm traveling 50% of the time with my job. Literally there are 250+ threads -- many of them "FOR SALE" threads for cars -- that I have not even looked at yet because I have not had the time.

So to make a blanket statement/accusation/assumption that I am somehow trying to drive folks to post their VIN numbers so that I can somehow suck them up into my database is not very accurate, and more importantly not very appreciated. The inference that I'm up to no good and recording VINs for purely selfish reasons impugns both my intent and motives, and is not accurate.

I began "recording" VINs that popped up on 500Ecstasy about 12-13 years ago, and recording PDFs of eBay and Autotrader listings of cars for sale. I was much more aggressive about this in the past than I have been for the past 5 or so years, to be honest. And now that most cars (along with their VIN numbers) are being recorded here in the FOR SALE section, there is better documentation/discussion of them than a simple notation in my database.

It is inferences and accusations like SG-Motorsports' above that completely rile me up to the point of "WTF am I doing even spending the time and money I do in running this site?". I have never used this information in my own database in anything other than an upright and factual manner, posting it when a car comes up for sale or contributing to a discussion, or answering a private enquiry when someone has questions about a particular car that they are considering buying or looking at.

In the past, in a few cases, I have gotten belligerant and used factual information when a seller makes obviously wrong and/or demonstrably fraudulent claims pertaining to a vehicle's condition, mileage, or accident damage history IF I have definitive proof that what they are claiming is wrong, or they are deliberately hiding something. I see no wrong in doing this, and it has not been a regular occurrence.

Stevester500E: In terms of the comprehensive list of Worldwide and US VINs of E500E models ... and when it will be available on this site ...

I'll be honest with all of you. Probably never. This seems to be a very contentious and sensitive issue. Posting this information could open a can of worms, and could further the already "out there" perception among some folks that I am up to no good with my collection of information. Which again, is very very limited these days due to other priorities in my life. I have been going for stretches of up to a week at a time without even logging onto this site.

As of November 30, 2015, I will have owned and run this site for 7 years. And I have considered myself a part of the worldwide E500E community since August of 2003, which was a month before I purchased my own car. I would have hoped that over the past 12+ years, my actions and statements would have demonstrated my intent. I guess that is not the case, at least with certain individuals. Wow.

I have to admit, and I'll just say it ... I am very offended and pissed off by the above statements. I guess it doesn't help that my dad died two days ago here in Seattle, and my father in law passed away last night in Bend, OR, so I'm a bit emotionally ripped up right now not to mention separated from my family (who are en route to Bend). My kids lost both of their grandfathers in less than 48 hours. So excuse my vehemence ... to a degree.

But when I'm over the emotion that's happening right now in my life, I'm still going to be plenty offended and pissed off.

Cheers from Seattle,
Gerry

Gerry, I think somehow what I typed and what you read are two very different things. You're obviously offended and that was not my intention at all. I meant no disrespect nor was I trying to accuse you of any shady activity with your data gathering. I even mentioned that I thought it helped a lot of people, so I'm not sure why the miscommunication.

I was trying to make a light hearted sarcastic joke of my own because I felt your previous post was a bit degrading to those who disagree with your opinion about posting VIN's, especially given my experience just hours before at my local Licensing agency, which I explained. You may have never asked for VIN's directly but every for sale thread on this site asks for a VIN by someone, you guys even have a special icon for it. Your previous post was full of sarcasm and belittling people for not wanting to post that kind of info, which is why I made the comment/joke. In hind sight, I could/should have handled it better.

The bottom line is, you're offended. I apologize. I genuinely meant no disrespect. I'm not one to want to start controversy and as I'm sure you can see I don't post much, only when I feel I have something to genuinely contribute. In this case I felt there was nobody expressing the opposite opinion and given my experience earlier that day I felt I should share.

If you're in the Seattle area tonight and have free time, send me an email. I'd be happy to look you in the eye, shake your hand and buy you a beer.

Steve

 

[Lowman]

I was trying to make a light hearted sarcastic joke of my own because I felt your previous post was a bit degrading to those who disagree with your opinion about posting VIN's, especially given my experience just hours before at my local Licensing agency, which I explained.
Steve

Thats how i felt too.

 

[Lowman]

In this case I felt there was nobody expressing the opposite opinion and given my experience earlier that day I felt I should share.
Steve

i did express the opposite opinion.As i have the same view on the matter as you

 

[doolar]

In Sweden the license plate is a perfect way to know who you are. One app and a SMS and you know who owns the vehicle, his or her address and if the car passed MOT / smog test, taxes paid and so on.

It's handy sometimes (when buying a car), but not so fun when the criminals wants your wheels for example. In my town they see your car on the street, take a note of the license number and then comes to your garage stealing your wheels leaving your car on its brake discs.

So it is common here to mask the license plate on photos just to minimize the risk. Of course there's little to do about it on the open roads.

But the VIN? Nobody cares here, in fact most people don't even know what it is.