Postby talbir on Sat May 16, 2009 2:50 pm
Attached is a picture of the engine and yours truly beside it.
I was in Las Vegas and Los Angeles in March on business and pleasure and for the first time, saw the engine and it's workings for myself. What a piece ! Beautifully prepared....Brabus crank, 6.3 displacement, custom heads, flow tested to punch out 525bhp+ so long as the exhaust is not too restrictive.
The engine will now go in a crate and be shipped to me, along with the Renntech airbox and Renntech roll bar and rising rate fuel pressure regulator. I already have the Renntech back box on the recipient car, the black 500E.
Once engine is in along with RRPFR and Wideband O2 sensor, i can then get some dyno runs. The crate will take a month to arrive though.
cheers
talbir
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
500E 040
560E AMG Hammer DOHC/5.6
560SEC AMG
5.0 AMG DOHC Widebody
500 SEL Brabus
560 SE Carat
300TE Brabus
190E AMG Widebody
560 SEC 6.9 Widebody Gemballa
Porsche 911 Turbo Slantnose
Ferrari 328 GTS Koenig Widebody
Porsche 928 Widebody Strosek
========================================
Postby Glen on Sat May 16, 2009 3:08 pm
Wow! Awesome news! I can't wait for the dyno results
Glen Tokuhara
A few cars...
========================================
Postby Chappardababbar on Sat May 16, 2009 3:44 pm
Chappardababbar
========================================
Postby 500AMM on Sat May 16, 2009 5:42 pm
Many congratulations to you!
I hope the rest of the assembly will proceed well.
-arnt-
'94 E500 Limited, sapphire black, grey Limited leather, AMG mono II
'92 500E black/black, 6.0AMG conversion, K?nig supercharger w/intercooler
500AMM
========================================
Postby Chappardababbar on Sat May 16, 2009 8:01 pm
T-sahib,
How have you managed to get 525bhp out of the 6.3 when Brabus have 'only' managed 450 ish from a 6.4?
Cheers,
Chappardababbar
========================================
Postby talbir on Sat May 16, 2009 8:34 pm
the power an engine makes is determined by the heads.....the more they flow the more power the engine makes. $6k of work went into the heads alone from one of the top race engineers in the US.
It's been flow tested to prove the output....Brabus / AMg / Renntech never put that much work into the heads.
cheers
talbir
500E 040
560E AMG Hammer DOHC/5.6
560SEC AMG
5.0 AMG DOHC Widebody
500 SEL Brabus
560 SE Carat
300TE Brabus
190E AMG Widebody
560 SEC 6.9 Widebody Gemballa
Porsche 911 Turbo Slantnose
Ferrari 328 GTS Koenig Widebody
Porsche 928 Widebody Strosek
========================================
Postby Chappardababbar on Sun May 17, 2009 1:03 am
I like your style.
Chappardababbar
========================================
Postby gsxr on Sun May 17, 2009 2:27 am
Talbir, will you put the car on the dyno, after the engine is installed? Also, what chip (and what LH module) will you use with this motor? We'd love to hear more details about the build! Bore, stroke, other mods, rough cost, etc, etc...
Dave M.
Boise, ID
1995 E420 (W.I.P.)
1994 E500 (Q-ship)
1993 300D (Sportline)
1987 300D (Sportline Stage 2)
1987 300D (R.I.P)
Click here for my website photos, documents, and movies.
========================================
Postby brams on Sun May 17, 2009 9:39 am
This is a remarkable engine 525hp from 6.3 liters 83hp/l !!, is this something you bought already done or did you commission the work?, what is the intended rev limit, have you used fancy engine internals, titanium con rods etc?
What camshafts have been used are they custom ground or off the shelf AMG/Brabus?
Whilst I don't doubt the accuracy of what the engine is, or what you say, I am nevertheless intrigued that you've managed to get an approx 30% increase in specific power output from modifying the cylinder heads. A lot more modern machinery with double variable valve timing/bank, compression ratios of 11:1 and direct injection systems are just about managing to achieve anything near this.
Are you using LH and EZL/AKR or using something more modern like a Motronic type system?
What is the torque?, I'd take a guess of about 620Nm?, I'd love to see what and where is makes max torque and how flat the curve is.
Cheers!
95 E500 Limited
========================================
Postby need2speed on Sun May 17, 2009 2:48 pm
Hey Talbir, once you have that puppy installed, ask to re-do the drag race with that CLS 63 :up2:
need2speed
500E500 owners motto: "Lead, follow, or better yet, get out of the way."
========================================
Postby talbir on Sun May 17, 2009 2:56 pm
Brams
High lift camshafts are not a material issue here as they don't add alot in the power stakes....displacement alone is not the key either. As i said before, the most critical area is the heads and how they flow, and the majority of cost and time has been put into these. I could have got AMG cams in there but to spend another $4-5k for less than 10% more power is a flase economy. I'd be better off investing that in a set of good exhaust manifolds that will maximise the power this engine is making.
The work was commissioned by me, i bought the Renntech block late 2007/early 2008 and the entire work has been done/overseen by a man who knows M119's better than anyone else i know in the States...so if he tells me something, it's based on fact. Yes, we have used titanium rods.
525bhp is not a big deal...we could have gone much higher, you can get 800 bhp out of this very block if you wanted....but then reliability would be minimal. I'm not sure what you mean when you say current engines are struggling to produce this sort of power....the current naturally aspirated AMG 63 engines are producing the same amount of horsepower. And that's with CATs fitted !
Appreciate there will be many doubters, but the figure of 525bhp comes from a flow test, not just a finger in the air guesstimate. I can only do a dyno run once the engine is in the car, which will be a couple of months. The engine took months to build, prepare and refine so a few more months waiting is not an issue for me.
The LH system will be absolutely fine - but instead of using the ridiculously expensive (?3k GBP) and crude AMG modded LH which simply richens mixture across the board, a RRFPR is far the better solution. The EZL resistor we can play with to optimise, but the EZL is easily acquired for about ?1k GBP.
I shall only know torque figures once car is on dyno
The entire cost of this has been circa $12k USD....not bad given the figures Brabus mention of 30-40k for an upgrade to 6.5 !
cheers
talbir
500E 040
560E AMG Hammer DOHC/5.6
560SEC AMG
5.0 AMG DOHC Widebody
500 SEL Brabus
560 SE Carat
300TE Brabus
190E AMG Widebody
560 SEC 6.9 Widebody Gemballa
Porsche 911 Turbo Slantnose
Ferrari 328 GTS Koenig Widebody
Porsche 928 Widebody Strosek
========================================
Postby brams on Sun May 17, 2009 5:33 pm
talbir wrote:I'm not sure what you mean when you say current engines are struggling to produce this sort of power....the current naturally aspirated AMG 63 engines are producing the same amount of horsepower. And that's with CATs fitted !
talbir
Actually I wasn't thinking of the AMG M156, however seeing as you mention it that's a pretty good example of how good your engine is.
How do you mean to deal with the extra cooling requirements needed by this engine?
Cheers
95 E500 Limited
========================================
Postby gsxr on Sun May 17, 2009 6:00 pm
talbir wrote:The entire cost of this has been circa $12k USD....not bad given the figures Brabus mention of 30-40k for an upgrade to 6.5 !
If we could build a plain old 6.0 that coughed up 400-425hp for under $12k USD, I bet there would several people interested (myself included). Does your engine guy have any interest in building a more moderate version of this motor?
BTW - did you end up with sleeves installed, or is the block Alusil (?) treated, like I believe the OE engines are?
EDIT: The M119/M120 engines do not have any Nikasil coatings.
========================================
Postby putputput on Sun May 17, 2009 8:17 pm
gsxr wrote:BTW - did you end up with sleeves installed, or is the block nikasil/alusil treated like OE?
Hi, sorry to go off topic here - the engines in the e500e were nikasil lined? Seriously?
putputput
========================================
Postby gsxr on Sun May 17, 2009 8:42 pm
putputput wrote:Hi, sorry to go off topic here - the engines in the e500e were nikasil lined? Seriously?
I'm not sure if Nikasil or Alusil is the correct term or no. The factory manual says "sillcon lapping" using a Sunnen machine. Click here to read the factory procedure (PDF file). Here's a description I found online:
"Tim Meara of Sunnen says both Mercedes and Porsche have aluminum blocks that use an alloy [which] has a high silicone content that provides wear resistance. ... Honing this type of alloy requires a four-step process. First the bores are honed with a #220 vitrified abrasive, followed by #400 stones and finally #600 stones. The cylinders are then finished by lapping with cork and a special lapping compound that removes just enough aluminum to expose the harder silicone particles."
I did a little more research, looks like it is NOT Nikasil, which is a coating. Alusil may be more correct but I'm not certain that is accurate either. But the description of Alusil is awfully close to the "silicon lapping" described in the FSM.
Anyway, Talbir had checked into using steel sleeves on this engine, but I wasn't sure if that theory panned out or not. I was hoping he could fill us in on some details!
========================================
Postby putputput on Sun May 17, 2009 11:43 pm
Nikasil is cool stuff, because it's very lightweight and very resistant and quite "smooth". However, it has a tendency to break down due to the sulfur content in gas - there were many engines by major vendors like BMW and Jaguar that needed replacement back in the mid 90's due to this (many blamed it on poor quality gas, etc etc, but that's outside the scope here). I don't think the e500e cars had nikasil.
I haven't heard of the other stuff, will look into it
putputput
========================================
Postby gsxr on Mon May 18, 2009 1:00 am
putputput wrote:I don't think the e500e cars had Nikasil.
That is correct. The M119/M120 engines do not have any Nikasil coatings. I will edit my previous post to reduce confusion...
========================================
Postby gerryvz on Mon May 18, 2009 6:10 am
:dj:
:worship:
:worthy2:
:rock:
:theman:
========================================
Postby chicky on Mon May 18, 2009 9:43 am
Hi Dave,
I can't wait for Talbir"s reply if the engine guy would be interested in doing a "more moderate" engine.
My take on the matter of a "more moderate" engine would not be a 6.0 bore and stroke, but rather, as per Niibe's suggestion of using the M117 5.6 liter crank and rods + a 96.5 mm diameter piston ( overall specifications/dimensions of which is still a big ?), at least we don't have to go reboring the block. Maybe couple this with gas flowed heads + matched ported + multi-angled valves and seats. The tricky parts would be the ignition and fuel injection...but maybe we could persuade Jonathan, in developing a stand alone injection system which will not require a hood scoop on our cars. It would be more interesting if all these would only require a budget of about US$6k.
:excited: :idea:
:woot2:
chicky
========================================
Postby talbir on Mon May 18, 2009 10:28 am
An M117 5.6 crank is not a straight fitment into an M119 - it has to be materially machined and balanced to fit the M119.
Also, there is no need to re-work the ignition / injection system. The existing set-up will work fine coupled with a RRFPR. Or do away with the LH entirely and go Mega Squirt, even better.
My head work cost $6k....i already had the 6.2 bare block + pistons for circa $1k USD from ebay....i bought another stock M119 complete ($1.5k) to make the Renntech block complete with all ancillaries....and i had a Brabus crank already (which cost 800 euros). But you don't need a Brabus crank, whatever build you are doing, whatever displacement, the 5.6 m117 crank can be used without issue.
So without serious head work, without spend on a Brabus crank, it can probably be done in 6k. But i've asked my man if he's interested in doing a few more. Believe me, there is no-one better, this guy is a genius. He's asked me not to shout uot his name so i shall respect his request for confidentiality, although Gerry knows who it is and i'm sure he can confirm this chaps abilities.
cheers
talbir
500E 040
560E AMG Hammer DOHC/5.6
560SEC AMG
5.0 AMG DOHC Widebody
500 SEL Brabus
560 SE Carat
300TE Brabus
190E AMG Widebody
560 SEC 6.9 Widebody Gemballa
Porsche 911 Turbo Slantnose
Ferrari 328 GTS Koenig Widebody
Porsche 928 Widebody Strosek
Attached is a picture of the engine and yours truly beside it.
I was in Las Vegas and Los Angeles in March on business and pleasure and for the first time, saw the engine and it's workings for myself. What a piece ! Beautifully prepared....Brabus crank, 6.3 displacement, custom heads, flow tested to punch out 525bhp+ so long as the exhaust is not too restrictive.
The engine will now go in a crate and be shipped to me, along with the Renntech airbox and Renntech roll bar and rising rate fuel pressure regulator. I already have the Renntech back box on the recipient car, the black 500E.
Once engine is in along with RRPFR and Wideband O2 sensor, i can then get some dyno runs. The crate will take a month to arrive though.
cheers
talbir
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
500E 040
560E AMG Hammer DOHC/5.6
560SEC AMG
5.0 AMG DOHC Widebody
500 SEL Brabus
560 SE Carat
300TE Brabus
190E AMG Widebody
560 SEC 6.9 Widebody Gemballa
Porsche 911 Turbo Slantnose
Ferrari 328 GTS Koenig Widebody
Porsche 928 Widebody Strosek
========================================
Postby Glen on Sat May 16, 2009 3:08 pm
Wow! Awesome news! I can't wait for the dyno results
Glen Tokuhara
A few cars...
========================================
Postby Chappardababbar on Sat May 16, 2009 3:44 pm
Chappardababbar
========================================
Postby 500AMM on Sat May 16, 2009 5:42 pm
Many congratulations to you!
I hope the rest of the assembly will proceed well.
-arnt-
'94 E500 Limited, sapphire black, grey Limited leather, AMG mono II
'92 500E black/black, 6.0AMG conversion, K?nig supercharger w/intercooler
500AMM
========================================
Postby Chappardababbar on Sat May 16, 2009 8:01 pm
T-sahib,
How have you managed to get 525bhp out of the 6.3 when Brabus have 'only' managed 450 ish from a 6.4?
Cheers,
Chappardababbar
========================================
Postby talbir on Sat May 16, 2009 8:34 pm
the power an engine makes is determined by the heads.....the more they flow the more power the engine makes. $6k of work went into the heads alone from one of the top race engineers in the US.
It's been flow tested to prove the output....Brabus / AMg / Renntech never put that much work into the heads.
cheers
talbir
500E 040
560E AMG Hammer DOHC/5.6
560SEC AMG
5.0 AMG DOHC Widebody
500 SEL Brabus
560 SE Carat
300TE Brabus
190E AMG Widebody
560 SEC 6.9 Widebody Gemballa
Porsche 911 Turbo Slantnose
Ferrari 328 GTS Koenig Widebody
Porsche 928 Widebody Strosek
========================================
Postby Chappardababbar on Sun May 17, 2009 1:03 am
I like your style.
Chappardababbar
========================================
Postby gsxr on Sun May 17, 2009 2:27 am
Talbir, will you put the car on the dyno, after the engine is installed? Also, what chip (and what LH module) will you use with this motor? We'd love to hear more details about the build! Bore, stroke, other mods, rough cost, etc, etc...
Dave M.
Boise, ID
1995 E420 (W.I.P.)
1994 E500 (Q-ship)
1993 300D (Sportline)
1987 300D (Sportline Stage 2)
1987 300D (R.I.P)
Click here for my website photos, documents, and movies.
========================================
Postby brams on Sun May 17, 2009 9:39 am
This is a remarkable engine 525hp from 6.3 liters 83hp/l !!, is this something you bought already done or did you commission the work?, what is the intended rev limit, have you used fancy engine internals, titanium con rods etc?
What camshafts have been used are they custom ground or off the shelf AMG/Brabus?
Whilst I don't doubt the accuracy of what the engine is, or what you say, I am nevertheless intrigued that you've managed to get an approx 30% increase in specific power output from modifying the cylinder heads. A lot more modern machinery with double variable valve timing/bank, compression ratios of 11:1 and direct injection systems are just about managing to achieve anything near this.
Are you using LH and EZL/AKR or using something more modern like a Motronic type system?
What is the torque?, I'd take a guess of about 620Nm?, I'd love to see what and where is makes max torque and how flat the curve is.
Cheers!
95 E500 Limited
========================================
Postby need2speed on Sun May 17, 2009 2:48 pm
Hey Talbir, once you have that puppy installed, ask to re-do the drag race with that CLS 63 :up2:
need2speed
500E500 owners motto: "Lead, follow, or better yet, get out of the way."
========================================
Postby talbir on Sun May 17, 2009 2:56 pm
Brams
High lift camshafts are not a material issue here as they don't add alot in the power stakes....displacement alone is not the key either. As i said before, the most critical area is the heads and how they flow, and the majority of cost and time has been put into these. I could have got AMG cams in there but to spend another $4-5k for less than 10% more power is a flase economy. I'd be better off investing that in a set of good exhaust manifolds that will maximise the power this engine is making.
The work was commissioned by me, i bought the Renntech block late 2007/early 2008 and the entire work has been done/overseen by a man who knows M119's better than anyone else i know in the States...so if he tells me something, it's based on fact. Yes, we have used titanium rods.
525bhp is not a big deal...we could have gone much higher, you can get 800 bhp out of this very block if you wanted....but then reliability would be minimal. I'm not sure what you mean when you say current engines are struggling to produce this sort of power....the current naturally aspirated AMG 63 engines are producing the same amount of horsepower. And that's with CATs fitted !
Appreciate there will be many doubters, but the figure of 525bhp comes from a flow test, not just a finger in the air guesstimate. I can only do a dyno run once the engine is in the car, which will be a couple of months. The engine took months to build, prepare and refine so a few more months waiting is not an issue for me.
The LH system will be absolutely fine - but instead of using the ridiculously expensive (?3k GBP) and crude AMG modded LH which simply richens mixture across the board, a RRFPR is far the better solution. The EZL resistor we can play with to optimise, but the EZL is easily acquired for about ?1k GBP.
I shall only know torque figures once car is on dyno
The entire cost of this has been circa $12k USD....not bad given the figures Brabus mention of 30-40k for an upgrade to 6.5 !
cheers
talbir
500E 040
560E AMG Hammer DOHC/5.6
560SEC AMG
5.0 AMG DOHC Widebody
500 SEL Brabus
560 SE Carat
300TE Brabus
190E AMG Widebody
560 SEC 6.9 Widebody Gemballa
Porsche 911 Turbo Slantnose
Ferrari 328 GTS Koenig Widebody
Porsche 928 Widebody Strosek
========================================
Postby brams on Sun May 17, 2009 5:33 pm
talbir wrote:I'm not sure what you mean when you say current engines are struggling to produce this sort of power....the current naturally aspirated AMG 63 engines are producing the same amount of horsepower. And that's with CATs fitted !
talbir
Actually I wasn't thinking of the AMG M156, however seeing as you mention it that's a pretty good example of how good your engine is.
How do you mean to deal with the extra cooling requirements needed by this engine?
Cheers
95 E500 Limited
========================================
Postby gsxr on Sun May 17, 2009 6:00 pm
talbir wrote:The entire cost of this has been circa $12k USD....not bad given the figures Brabus mention of 30-40k for an upgrade to 6.5 !
If we could build a plain old 6.0 that coughed up 400-425hp for under $12k USD, I bet there would several people interested (myself included). Does your engine guy have any interest in building a more moderate version of this motor?
BTW - did you end up with sleeves installed, or is the block Alusil (?) treated, like I believe the OE engines are?
EDIT: The M119/M120 engines do not have any Nikasil coatings.
========================================
Postby putputput on Sun May 17, 2009 8:17 pm
gsxr wrote:BTW - did you end up with sleeves installed, or is the block nikasil/alusil treated like OE?
Hi, sorry to go off topic here - the engines in the e500e were nikasil lined? Seriously?
putputput
========================================
Postby gsxr on Sun May 17, 2009 8:42 pm
putputput wrote:Hi, sorry to go off topic here - the engines in the e500e were nikasil lined? Seriously?
I'm not sure if Nikasil or Alusil is the correct term or no. The factory manual says "sillcon lapping" using a Sunnen machine. Click here to read the factory procedure (PDF file). Here's a description I found online:
"Tim Meara of Sunnen says both Mercedes and Porsche have aluminum blocks that use an alloy [which] has a high silicone content that provides wear resistance. ... Honing this type of alloy requires a four-step process. First the bores are honed with a #220 vitrified abrasive, followed by #400 stones and finally #600 stones. The cylinders are then finished by lapping with cork and a special lapping compound that removes just enough aluminum to expose the harder silicone particles."
I did a little more research, looks like it is NOT Nikasil, which is a coating. Alusil may be more correct but I'm not certain that is accurate either. But the description of Alusil is awfully close to the "silicon lapping" described in the FSM.
Anyway, Talbir had checked into using steel sleeves on this engine, but I wasn't sure if that theory panned out or not. I was hoping he could fill us in on some details!
========================================
Postby putputput on Sun May 17, 2009 11:43 pm
Nikasil is cool stuff, because it's very lightweight and very resistant and quite "smooth". However, it has a tendency to break down due to the sulfur content in gas - there were many engines by major vendors like BMW and Jaguar that needed replacement back in the mid 90's due to this (many blamed it on poor quality gas, etc etc, but that's outside the scope here). I don't think the e500e cars had nikasil.
I haven't heard of the other stuff, will look into it
putputput
========================================
Postby gsxr on Mon May 18, 2009 1:00 am
putputput wrote:I don't think the e500e cars had Nikasil.
That is correct. The M119/M120 engines do not have any Nikasil coatings. I will edit my previous post to reduce confusion...
========================================
Postby gerryvz on Mon May 18, 2009 6:10 am
:dj:
:worship:
:worthy2:
:rock:
:theman:
========================================
Postby chicky on Mon May 18, 2009 9:43 am
Hi Dave,
I can't wait for Talbir"s reply if the engine guy would be interested in doing a "more moderate" engine.
My take on the matter of a "more moderate" engine would not be a 6.0 bore and stroke, but rather, as per Niibe's suggestion of using the M117 5.6 liter crank and rods + a 96.5 mm diameter piston ( overall specifications/dimensions of which is still a big ?), at least we don't have to go reboring the block. Maybe couple this with gas flowed heads + matched ported + multi-angled valves and seats. The tricky parts would be the ignition and fuel injection...but maybe we could persuade Jonathan, in developing a stand alone injection system which will not require a hood scoop on our cars. It would be more interesting if all these would only require a budget of about US$6k.
:excited: :idea:
:woot2:chicky
========================================
Postby talbir on Mon May 18, 2009 10:28 am
An M117 5.6 crank is not a straight fitment into an M119 - it has to be materially machined and balanced to fit the M119.
Also, there is no need to re-work the ignition / injection system. The existing set-up will work fine coupled with a RRFPR. Or do away with the LH entirely and go Mega Squirt, even better.
My head work cost $6k....i already had the 6.2 bare block + pistons for circa $1k USD from ebay....i bought another stock M119 complete ($1.5k) to make the Renntech block complete with all ancillaries....and i had a Brabus crank already (which cost 800 euros). But you don't need a Brabus crank, whatever build you are doing, whatever displacement, the 5.6 m117 crank can be used without issue.
So without serious head work, without spend on a Brabus crank, it can probably be done in 6k. But i've asked my man if he's interested in doing a few more. Believe me, there is no-one better, this guy is a genius. He's asked me not to shout uot his name so i shall respect his request for confidentiality, although Gerry knows who it is and i'm sure he can confirm this chaps abilities.
cheers
talbir
500E 040
560E AMG Hammer DOHC/5.6
560SEC AMG
5.0 AMG DOHC Widebody
500 SEL Brabus
560 SE Carat
300TE Brabus
190E AMG Widebody
560 SEC 6.9 Widebody Gemballa
Porsche 911 Turbo Slantnose
Ferrari 328 GTS Koenig Widebody
Porsche 928 Widebody Strosek
