• Hi Guest !

    Welcome to the 500Eboard forum.

    Since its founding in late 2008, 500Eboard has become the leading resource on the Internet for all things related to the Mercedes-Benz 500E and E500. In recent years, we have also expanded to include the 400E and E420 models, which are directly related to the 500E/E500.

    We invite you to browse and take advantage of the information and resources here on the site. If you find helpful information, please register for full membership, and you'll find even more resources available. Feel free to ask questions, and make liberal use of the "Search" function to find answers.

    We hope you will become an active contributor to the community!

    Sincerely,
    500Eboard Management

Rough idle/stumbling/falling over, issues during WOTs

Coming back last week from the dealer who did my back glass, I got extended opportunities to hit triple digits on the speedo. Sure is effortless with the E500 - never gets old.
The [now snappy] drop down to 3rd at 80mph to come back to 4th at 110 or so is particularly rewarding on FL roads to get some pickup off your arse, in a 30 year old car. Eventually when you slow down to 80mph they’ll sheepishly creep past you. 😂

Problem is you can’t really do that in the S55k. You’ll run out of road before you get to shift out of 3rd. EDIT ... and if you get caught at those speeds you'll be happy to get off with a ticket, of any amount vs going straight to jail.

maw
 
Last edited:
yes, I often contemplate a ballzy benz and I think I may just go the otherway, and get 63 Impala ragtop and just chill. Or a 70 Chevelle. I have two garages and I want my wife to allow me to build a shop where the sport court is on a 8" slab. Would love to construct a guest house, a shop with a two post lift, room to store 2 other cars but it will never happen. A guy can dream.....
 
yes, I often contemplate a ballzy benz and I think I may just go the otherway, and get 63 Impala ragtop and just chill. Or a 70 Chevelle. I have two garages and I want my wife to allow me to build a shop where the sport court is on a 8 slab. Would love to construct a guest house, a shop with a two post lift, room to store 2 other cars but it will never happen. A guy can dream.....
I always think of a '71 Chevelle Malibu drop top. Growing up, one of my neighbors had one and I never got over it. Thing was gorgeous and always looked like so much fun, which Eazy E and Ice-T confirmed😂🤣😉

maw
 
I got the magnaflow cats and had them installed locally. Overall, I'm whelmed - there's noticeable improvement with the new cats at high RPM and in general power, but all my other issues descirbed on this thread remain and are documented in this video here. In particular
  • At moderate speed (60 MPH ish), flooring it frequently results in unsteady acceleration until >5500RPM. It kind of lunges then pauses then lunges then pauses on its way up. This doesn't happen every time but it's frequent.
  • At idle, the car frequently stumbles. This happens in particular when hot; ie drive on highway for 30 mi, get off and the last 2-3 mi on surface streets at stoplights the car feels like it's about to die. It sometimes even shakes the full car. It sits right at 500RPM in D or R. P is 650RPM.
  • Then, at low speed under load (esp pulling away from a stop sign) it feels dead from take off until about 1500RPM....I tried to capture this in the video but it feels very lethargic and sounds almost gargly.
  • A similar feeling can happen when pulling onto the freeway from stop....it sometimes refuses to kick down to a lower gear and just bogs until it wakes up above a certain RPM.
I'm at a bit of a loss. Fuel pumps were done in 05 at 175k mi (245k mi now). I could do fuel pumps/filter, I could do O2 sensor, I could do caps/rotors again...but I'd love to try and feel more definitive before throwing more parts/money at this.
 
  • At moderate speed (60 MPH ish), flooring it frequently results in unsteady acceleration until >5500RPM. It kind of lunges then pauses then lunges then pauses on its way up. This doesnt happen every time but its frequent.
I've seen this before. It's related to throttle control somehow. Remember the ETA only goes beyond 1/2 opening electrically; the throttle cable only opens halfway, after that it's throttle by wire. Seems the butterfly is opening/closing slightly about once per second, resulting in the surging. Has your ETA been rebuilt/replaced? Also, it's possible that a vacuum leak could cause something similar - any chance you can perform a smoke test on the intake, or at least trace down every vac line including the PCV tubes?



  • At idle, the car frequently stumbles. This happens in particular when hot; ie drive on highway for 30 mi, get off and the last 2-3 mi on surface streets at stoplights the car feels like its about to die. It sometimes even shakes the full car. It sits right at 500RPM in D or R. P is 650RPM.
How old are engine mounts, what spark plugs were gapped at 1.0mm? Viewing live data on SDS HHT-Win will confirm if it's a misfire, or something else, if you can view the data while the problem is occurring. Do you have SDS access? If you can confirm this is a misfire, then you know what to work on next - or what to eliminate as a possibility. Note that bad engine mounts will make the idle feel rough (shaking the car), but will not cause the engine RPM to drop below spec (500 or 650), and won't cause the engine to actually die. Oh yeah - have you confirmed it is not a leaking EGR valve? That will also cause a rough idle.



  • Then, at low speed under load (esp pulling away from a stop sign) it feels dead from take off until about 1500RPM....I tried to capture this in the video but it feels very lethargic and sounds almost gargly.
Need live data again - look at the adaptation values. Should be between 0.900 and 1.005, if not, something is screwy with mixture. I'd also check MAF live data. As a rough test, disconnect the MAF (yes this will cause fault codes) and see if it drives better or worse. Clear the codes after reconnecting the MAF.



  • A similar feeling can happen when pulling onto the freeway from stop....it sometimes refuses to kick down to a lower gear and just bogs until it wakes up above a certain RPM.
Shifting issues would be completely different/unrelated. The transmission will downshift / kick down to a lower gear only with enough throttle travel (Bowden cable adjustment), AND also below a certain RPM/MPH. Alternately, floor it so the electrical kickdown switch is activated, see if there's any change.


Im at a bit of a loss. Fuel pumps were done in 05 at 175k mi (245k mi now). I could do fuel pumps/filter, I could do O2 sensor, I could do caps/rotors again...but Id love to try and feel more definitive before throwing more parts/money at this.
Fuel pumps are unlikely, the symptoms don't match... low rail pressure results in a smooth loss of power, not rough running. I really don't think that is the root cause here. I wouldn't mess with caps/rotors unless HHT-Win live data from EZL shows certain cylinders misfring.

What DTC's keep recurring, and what is the DM code causing the CEL right now?

:cel:
 
Last edited:
Shifting issues would be completely different/unrelated. The transmission will downshift / kick down to a lower gear only with enough throttle travel (Bowden cable adjustment), AND also below a certain RPM/MPH. Alternately, floor it so the electrical kickdown switch is activated, see if theres any change.
This is the piece I was picking up on but I cannot tell how far he's moving the accelerator. Seems he has to move it through the floor to get anything to happen (which shouldn't be), and then even when it's "wide open" it's not really, almost as if the throttle gates are not "tightly" open. When I had a similar issue (had to wring the car's neck to get it to respond) a Bowden cable adjustment cured that right quick. Now she eagerly goes to WOT (without engaging the kick down switch) whereas before she seemed reluctant.

All that said, I'm only proposing that as an easy and cheap "on the way" test to ETA, which is unfortunately more likely IMO.

maw

EDIT... I guess another test of this theory would be to see how she acts at 80-90mph in 3rd. If WOT isn't wide open, then that would lead away from Bowden / throttle cable adjustments and toward ETA.
 
Last edited:
I played with the car a bit more on way into/home from work, a couple observations...
  • The idle issue is fine when starting cold but way worse once hot. Basically get off the freeway and the motor starts shaking at idle and feels like it will die. But at cold start it's fine. Will try to get live data
  • DTCs usually clear but can checka gain. CEL is related to EGR passage being clogged.
  • I can run a smoke test this weekend to see if vacuum leaks are present but a bad EGR valve could also be the culprit. I found this thread and it sounds suspiciously like a sticking EGR. I've had the CEL forever and after trying to clean the passage and my EGR valve I put an EGR valve I grabbed off a car from a yard and put it on, seems to coincide with the start of this issue. I wonder if it's sticking as described in the link, I still have my original one I can try.
  • The 'bogging' while trying to induce a down shift happens usually around 2.5-3k RPM in forth. The car just sounds rough. This also happens going up a hill at lower speed when under load at low RPM. A firm kickdown nearly always engages the switch for kickdown.
  • ETA was rebuilt by Don Rodden about 2 years ago
  • Motor mounts and trans mount were done in November 2017, 21k mi ago.
Thanks for all the helpful info, sounds like it's worth checking live data and getting under the car for the motor mount test.
 
Last edited:
I know gsxr suggested unplugging the MAF and driving it. Without that input the ECU will revert to engine temperature and throttle position and will err on the rich side. I have repaired several vehicles in the past where the MAF voltage was within range but the engine tended to run on the lean side causing unstable idle and stalling in conditions that match yours. You could also check the coolant temp sensor to make sure it is within spec.
 
I know gsxr suggested unplugging the MAF and driving it. Without that input the ECU will revert to engine temperature and throttle position and will err on the rich side. I have repaired several vehicles in the past where the MAF voltage was within range but the engine tended to run on the lean side causing unstable idle and stalling in conditions that match yours. You could also check the coolant temp sensor to make sure it is within spec.
Were you able to figure out why the cars ran lean while the MAF was within range? Some vacuum leak somewhere?

maw
 
Last edited:
Earlier LH style systems with the Hotwire setup were not able to adapt to component drift. i Could never find anything wrong with the MAF. Voltage readings were within range and I made sure the burn off function was working after shut off. A new MAF always cured the issue.
 
Earlier LH style systems with the Hotwire setup were not able to adapt to component drift. i Could never find anything wrong with the MAF. Voltage readings were within range and I made sure the burn off function was working after shut off. A new MAF always cured the issue.
Are you referring to LH-SFI systems used on Mercedes M119/M120 engines? I've not heard of this before. The O2 sensor should detect a lean condition and the LH module responds by adjusting the mixture richer. This will appear in live data in the LH adaptation values.

To date, I've only seen MAF's in a "hard" failure mode, usually with a fixed voltage output along with a recurring fault code (Pin 4, DTC #4, "Voltage at hot wire MAF sensor (B2/2) insufficient or too high").

Complicating things is that the LH-SFI MAF is NLA and the only options are used ones...

:peep:
 
Are you referring to LH-SFI systems used on Mercedes M119/M120 engines? Ive not heard of this before. The O2 sensor should detect a lean condition and the LH module responds by adjusting the mixture richer. This will appear in live data in the LH adaptation values.

To date, Ive only seen MAFs in a hard failure mode, usually with a fixed voltage output along with a recurring fault code (Pin 4, DTC #4, Voltage at hot wire MAF sensor (B2/2) insufficient or too high).

Complicating things is that the LH-SFI MAF is NLA and the only options are used ones...

:peep:
I agree 100% with your statement Dave. And I will admit my experience with the LH Hotwire setup is with Volvo and Saab of the period. Yes a hard fault will trigger the DTC as mentioned. Also worth mentioning is the engine is running in open loop until the sensor has reached operational temp and coolant temp has been satisfied. I was just suggesting if all else has been checked and live data is within reason then looking at the MAF might be the next thing to try.
 
I agree 100% with your statement Dave. And I will admit my experience with the LH Hotwire setup is with Volvo and Saab of the period.
Ah, got it! Keep in mind the Porch, Volvo, and Saaab systems are all earlier versions of LH. I believe those are v2.x and are batch-fire systems. The Mercedes implementation is LH-SFI (sequential injection), version 4.1, which was not used by any other manufacturer - AFAIK.

Bosch replaced LH with ME 1.0 that first appeared in 1996 USA model year (mid-1995 production). The ME systems were an advanced version with control over ignition, fuel, and throttle control - eliminating the EZL and E-GAS/T-LLR modules. (The ME 1.0 was also nearly impossible to modify, or "tune"... had to wait for 2.0 for those tweaks.)


Yes a hard fault will trigger the DTC as mentioned. Also worth mentioning is the engine is running in open loop until the sensor has reached operational temp and coolant temp has been satisfied. I was just suggesting if all else has been checked and live data is within reason then looking at the MAF might be the next thing to try.
Definitely agree it's worth checking. Ideally this would be viewing live data to see airflow measured in kg/hr at various RPM, but a rough test is to drive with the MAF unplugged.

:strawberry:
 
Good news! A week or so ago the ever helpful @luckymike reached out and suggested I investigate any possible shorting of the wires to ground. I pulled off the air filter and spark plugs covers and fired the engine up and sure enough one of the plugs on the passenger side bank was intermittently shorting to the valve cover. I taped it up with electrical tape, restarted, and the issue appears gone. I've taken a few drives since then and this appears to have also cured the intermittent hesitation during WOTs/downshifts. These plug wires were replaced about 12 years and 35k mi ago, looks like I'm due for another round of replacements here - need to dig into best supplier and source here but overall super happy that it was such an easy fix, wishing I'd checked this earlier.
 
That's great news! What plug wires are in there now? The Bosch with gray insulation and orange plastic boots, or something else?

:shocking:
 
I know, super happy - runs better than ever before! So nice to hit a WOT and not have to worry about this. I don't think they're Bosch, don't have the orange on them. Travelling a lot the next few weeks but will check closely next weekend. I also have the invoice from the last service still.
 
Im due for another round of replacements here - need to dig into best supplier and source here
Try to see if PartsGeek is still carrying the Beru wire sets for ~$200. Those are going to be the best quality and fitting wires, and they generally have the best price on them. I don't know if they are still carrying them, but I got a set about 2 years ago for a good price from them.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
FYI - the intermittency at WOT while driving was solved by replacing the trans overload protection switch

Other issues w stumbling at idle have been greatly improved by replacing badly cracked PCV hoses and going thru the ignitiion system - wires, coils, rotors, caps, insulators.
 
FYI - the intermittency at WOT while driving was solved by replacing the trans overload protection switch

Other issues w stumbling at idle have been greatly improved by replacing badly cracked PCV hoses and going thru the ignitiion system - wires, coils, rotors, caps, insulators.
Given your multi year ordeal with WOT issues, the info about the trans overload protection switch is knowledge gold! Thank you for sharing!
 

Who has viewed this thread (Total: 5) View details

Who has watched this thread (Total: 2) View details

Back
Top