The Future of todays NLA parts

[M104-AMG]

Totally agree here:

https://www.themaven.net/mishtalk/e...rd-high-523-per-month-IyZNibUwdUOG43My911VaA/

In short:
"Auto Math: $523 * 12 * 6 = $37,656

That total does not factor in the down payment.

Interest = $37,656 - $31,455 = $6,201.

That's $1033.50 in interest annually.

Lovely.

At the end of six years, perhaps the car will fetch $5,000 in a trade-in, but everything depends on miles, damage, and of course advancements in self-driving.

Anyone trading the car in after three or four years will be hugely underwater.

“The dream of owning a new vehicle is becoming more elusive,” said Melinda Zabritski, senior director of automotive financial solutions at Experian."

 

[Vinnie]

I was at the dealer today. Lazy Saturday, I needed a few, rather inexpensive pieces, some plastic parts, rubber joints, etc. Hardly any customer was inside, and when I arrived the dealer was on the phone. I sat and (wanting or not ) listened to what it was about. It turned out that on the other end of the wire was a W201 owner. And what he was mostly hearing was "NLA"...

Now my turn. Out of 12 positions, 8 were NLA, or...the price made me it treat like NLA. I thought I would buy a set or grille trim strips, but the price was over 1080 PLN (about 290 $). 290 $ for 7 small, simple strips. They were for less than 10 $ per piece about a year ago or so. As there was no one else there I just started to ask the guy what happened - either so high prices or NLA. The parts from my list were available at least a few months ago. So what happened. One of the reasons I was told was cost reduction because of less income due to covid-19 pandemic. MB cleared space in storage hoses, those who knew and were lucky hoarded what was available.

I asked him, whether there is a system to monitor demand for parts and all he could tell me was to contact Classic Center in Stuttgart. "You know - even now I'm getting a dozen inquiries for Hirschmann antenna masts a month. And I need to turn away all those people. And antenna masts are not the only missing parts." I though that maybe in such cases they could provide the address of the website where one could enter request for part demand. I mean the following form: Classic Center Part Demand Form. "That won't work. Those are The Mercedes Customers. I can't tell them to go home and report part demand themselves. I should have this integrated in the EPC - part entered, NLA, click - reported and done. But no one want's to provide such functionality, even if we were raising this on meetings."

That was sunny Saturday, yet I felt kind of clouds are building. When you hear cost reduction you know the effect might not back up soon, if ever. Will bowden cable with modulator for automatic transmission for my E220 estate will ever be available again? I have one used as a spare, but this is a part which wears out and can't be repaired or refurbished. I thought that it would be good if Classic Center somehow prioritized the list of parts to manufacture:
1. Those which cannot be refurbished, must be bought new and affect drive ability of the car (no part - no drive). That's the high priority one. No matter how good overall condition of a car is - such broken part makes it grounded and a nice exhibition in the owner's garage, but nothing else.
2. Those which cannot be refurbished, must be bought new, but do not affect drive ability of the car. For example seat upholstery - if it tears or wears out you may even replace it with your t-shirt, but may still drive and it does not affect safety. And if you want to keep the car in original state you may start your quest for part, but may still enjoy and drive it.
3. Those which can be refurbished. If you really want you may buy original, but refurbished one works as well. For example I gave the wrenches for zinc plating, because they oxidized over the past 27 years and had white tarnish and now look like new, yet for the fraction of the price of original wrench.

The majority of parts falls into groups 2 and 3. But all those gaskets, o-rings, valves, switches and rebuild kits from group 1 are kind of must have.

Now, all this is a wishful thinking. Do we have an agent in the Classic Center? Anyone who knows one? At least it would be good to know what's the policy or approach in the MB. Without that we may just write wishes or remarks which will be in vain and unanswered.

 

[nehuge]

I was at the dealer today. Lazy Saturday, I needed a few, rather inexpensive pieces, some plastic parts, rubber joints, etc. Hardly any customer was inside, and when I arrived the dealer was on the phone. I sat and (wanting or not ) listened to what it was about. It turned out that on the other end of the wire was a W201 owner. And what he was mostly hearing was "NLA"...

Now my turn. Out of 12 positions, 8 were NLA, or...the price made me it treat like NLA. I thought I would buy a set or grille trim strips, but the price was over 1080 PLN (about 290 $). 290 $ for 7 small, simple strips. They were for less than 10 $ per piece about a year ago or so. As there was no one else there I just started to ask the guy what happened - either so high prices or NLA. The parts from my list were available at least a few months ago. So what happened. One of the reasons I was told was cost reduction because of less income due to covid-19 pandemic. MB cleared space in storage hoses, those who knew and were lucky hoarded what was available.

I asked him, whether there is a system to monitor demand for parts and all he could tell me was to contact Classic Center in Stuttgart. "You know - even now I'm getting a dozen inquiries for Hirschmann antenna masts a month. And I need to turn away all those people. And antenna masts are not the only missing parts." I though that maybe in such cases they could provide the address of the website where one could enter request for part demand. I mean the following form: Classic Center Part Demand Form. "That won't work. Those are The Mercedes Customers. I can't tell them to go home and report part demand themselves. I should have this integrated in the EPC - part entered, NLA, click - reported and done. But no one want's to provide such functionality, even if we were raising this on meetings."

That was sunny Saturday, yet I felt kind of clouds are building. When you hear cost reduction you know the effect might not back up soon, if ever. Will bowden cable with modulator for automatic transmission for my E220 estate will ever be available again? I have one used as a spare, but this is a part which wears out and can't be repaired or refurbished. I thought that it would be good if Classic Center somehow prioritized the list of parts to manufacture:
1. Those which cannot be refurbished, must be bought new and affect drive ability of the car (no part - no drive). That's the high priority one. No matter how good overall condition of a car is - such broken part makes it grounded and a nice exhibition in the owner's garage, but nothing else.
2. Those which cannot be refurbished, must be bought new, but do not affect drive ability of the car. For example seat upholstery - if it tears or wears out you may even replace it with your t-shirt, but may still drive and it does not affect safety. And if you want to keep the car in original state you may start your quest for part, but may still enjoy and drive it.
3. Those which can be refurbished. If you really want you may buy original, but refurbished one works as well. For example I gave the wrenches for zinc plating, because they oxidized over the past 27 years and had white tarnish and now look like new, yet for the fraction of the price of original wrench.

The majority of parts falls into groups 2 and 3. But all those gaskets, o-rings, valves, switches and rebuild kits from group 1 are kind of must have.

Now, all this is a wishful thinking. Do we have an agent in the Classic Center? Anyone who knows one? At least it would be good to know what's the policy or approach in the MB. Without that we may just write wishes or remarks which will be in vain and unanswered.

I agree. Will I able to (in 10 years) find a MB kit for my M104 to rebuild the heads/valve job? Who knows. This is grim stuff and I hope maybe the W124's will gain more classic status to make them want to do certain production runs. Or will they? I mean, if you have a 1950's, 60's, 70's, Benz, (which I don't) can those people still find the major parts for them? What about things like curved/molded heater hoses for the last 5 decades? Do we have to do flexible braided ones instead?

 

[gerryvz]

Stevester, I don't think you have too much to worry about. Yes, parts are going to continue to go NLA at increasing rates. Heck, the transmission mount (just the ordinary transmission mount, a common wear part and nothing special) for the 126 (560SEC/SEL) and many other chassis has been NLA from MB for some time now. Only options new are Meyle or URO.

HOWEVER, many if not MOST of the current E500E owners hoarding parts will move on to other cars/models in the coming years, and that will very likely continue to release hoarded parts onto the market as they sell their "inventory" off as they move on to other, newer, less NLA cars. I've seen it here many many times over the years. That's correct -- many if not MOST of the current E500E owners, will sell their cars in the next 5 (certainly 10) years and will have moved on to something else. That means that there will be a steady stream of hoarded NLA parts coming to us long-term owners.

If folks don't believe me, just ask yourself a simple question: How long have you owned your E500E? 15+ years? 10+ years? 5+ years? 3-5 years? 1-2 years?

PREDICTION: By March 2023, 35+% of the regular participants on this site will no longer own their E500E. By March 2028, 75% of the regular participants on this site will no longer own their E500E.

Cheers,
Gerry

I would say that this prediction is tracking not too far off...

 

[gerryvz]

I would say that this prediction is tracking not too far off...

I wonder how my prediction is coming along.....

 

[maw1124]

Cliff notes version?

maw

 

[gerryvz]

Cliff notes version?

maw

 

[maw1124]

"Hoard what you can afford"... That'll stick.

maw

View attachment 149697

Yeah… that’s probably a safe prediction more or less… I’ve seen more parts become available which is good… so far people seem content to keep their cars, which is also good… but until then, I’m gonna stick with “hoard what you can afford.”

maw

 

[JC220]

My hoarding has been curtailed by way of the main parts yard I regularly pillaged frequented stopped breaking MBs and instead scrap all cars now. No parts sales.

I will leave it this year too many projects to finish and will search for new parts yards next spring to start getting parts again. I already have masses of 124 spares. I always like getting 140 and 220 spares now as they are typically way underpriced at the yards and since I have 5x of those cars the spares will be used at some point for sure.

 

[gerryvz]

That's a good classic maw quote, IMO.

 

[maw1124]

That's a good classic maw quote, IMO.

All credit to @gsxr, actually. As soon as I read it, I knew that one would stick.

maw

 

[RicardoD]

PREDICTION: By March 2023, 35+% of the regular participants on this site will no longer own their E500E. By March 2028, 75% of the regular participants on this site will no longer own their E500E.

I am still using my .036 as my daily although that means only 2 days per week of work commute now and I am fixated on breaking through 200k miles with the car... however, I have definitely toyed with the idea of selling, problem is the car is just too much fun to drive, and it still looks so cool to me. And then I would miss all the old timer cranks on here complaining about electric cars and desperately holding on to the past as the "greatest era" of MB engineering.

There is no other forum that is as well run as this one, with quality content, and laser focused advice on how to fix the latest problem. No other forum has the banana violating another banana emoji.

 

[LWB250]

Thought an update would be in order here since I heard about it the other day when I was at the dealer:

No more "switchblade" key fobs for the R129/W140/W163 and other such models from that vintage that used them. Whatever was being done with a new vendor must have flopped or failed. They are considered NLA at this point and there is no indication they'll ever be back.

That means "Mickey Mouse" keys for any future needs for these models. It's the only option.

Dan

 

[emerydc8]

Before he died, my dad got me hooked on a youtube channel called Nick's Garage. https://www.youtube.com/c/NicksGarage/videos

It focuses on old American muscle (mostly MOPAR), and has been wildly successful. for a one-man operator of an independent auto shop in Montreal. I watch it out of interest, but also it motivates me to get out to the garage and work on my own cars more. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of demand or continued interest in keeping these old muscle cars alive. I don't even know that most of the older owners would lose interest in them. The younger people who weren't even born when these cars were made have also jumped into the mix. There are a lot of companies that have built their businesses on making NLA parts for these cars. @gerryvz, do you not see this kind of interest or demand in the older Mercedes cars by the younger generation, or is your prediction--that most will move on--limited to the E500E?

I have had W124/M119 cars since early 1997 and I never plan to be without at least one.

 

[maw1124]

Near 100 year old daily driver. MB should pay attention.

maw

 

[gerryvz]

Before he died, my dad got me hooked on a youtube channel called Nick's Garage. https://www.youtube.com/c/NicksGarage/videos

It focuses on old American muscle (mostly MOPAR), and has been wildly successful. for a one-man operator of an independent auto shop in Montreal. I watch it out of interest, but also it motivates me to get out to the garage and work on my own cars more. There doesn't seem to be any shortage of demand or continued interest in keeping these old muscle cars alive. I don't even know that most of the older owners would lose interest in them. The younger people who weren't even born when these cars were made have also jumped into the mix. There are a lot of companies that have built their businesses on making NLA parts for these cars. @gerryvz, do you not see this kind of interest or demand in the older Mercedes cars by the younger generation, or is your prediction--that most will move on--limited to the E500E?

I have had W124/M119 cars since early 1997 and I never plan to be without at least one.

I think there will always be some companies out there making some NLA parts. The advent of 3D printing has perhaps lowered the barriers of entry. However, the problem I see is that the market is just so small, for vintage MB parts (particularly for a narrow market like the 124 or 123 or 126) that I just don't think it will ever be a sustainable business for most of these companies. How many companies have we seen go in and out of business making performance and reproduction parts for these cars, over the past 20 years? Quite a few. Usually one man operations that are here one day, and gone the next.

This is the difference between US muscle cars and our cars. There's a HUGE market for muscle car parts out there. You can get NOS or reproductions of pretty much any part say on a 1967 Mustang or 1970 Chevelle. But for our cars, you have to be very informed, and/or very crafty.

That said, there is ingenuity that people will rely on to keep the cars running, to adapt current parts and form new ones, as well as NOS stocks and used parts. That will pretty much be the best way that these cars are kept on the road -- through rare NOS and used parts. Because we know they are the exact fit and the best quality.

My prediction has been based on the fact that for MOST owners, the pain of trying to keep their car on the road is going to get to a point where it outweighs the enjoyment they get from the car. And for a lot of folks, it's too much work/hassle after X period of years. And of course, daily driving a vintage car puts more wear and tear on the parts, necessitating more frequent maintenance.

How many people here daily drive their E500Es? I ONLY have a 1989 560SEC, an E500, and my 1995 G320. So ALL of my "daily drivers" are old cars that I have to work to keep on the road. I'd bet that 95% of the folks here have a modern car of some kind that they use as their daily driver, and use their E500E as an occasional work or weekend car. That's not to say that I don't drive my wife's Lexus or 2004 4Runner, but usually for specific purposes (for example hauling the dog around in the 4Runner). 90% of the time I drive my own cars.

 

[JC220]

Yes I have a "modern" daily driver w221 which is almost as impractical as the classics in some respects

But for me I need a modern car primarily to be able to drive it hard and put it away wet without giving a crap!! Whereas if it was one of my classics the fuel consumption would be worse and I would have anxiety about daily driving it in winter salt etc.

 

[gerryvz]

No other forum has the banana violating another banana emoji.

I have received many kudos over the years for our collection of eclectic smilies on this forum. Many of our smilies actually have heritage with the original 500Ecstasy forum, which debuted in August 2003, so props for a lot of our smilies goes to @RUN.EXE.

 

[emerydc8]

How many people here daily drive their E500Es? I ONLY have a 1989 560SEC, an E500, and my 1995 G320. So ALL of my "daily drivers" are old cars that I have to work to keep on the road. I'd bet that 95% of the folks here have a modern car of some kind that they use as their daily driver, and use their E500E as an occasional work or weekend car.

I think that those who use vintage Mercedes as their daily drivers (@gerryvz) are more likely to hang on to them at almost any cost. Those who bought them for enjoyment will probably bail, as was suggested, when the hassle becomes greater than the enjoyment it brings. My daily driver is a 95 E420. My backup is a 94 E420. My tertiary is a 92 Camaro Z28. I will not own a car that doesn't have a metallic ignition key. The problem with scavenging from other cars that hit the market is that so many parts for our cars are plastic and rubber, so the part from the scavenged car may be only slightly better. I hope the 3D printer technology improves fast enough to help with some of these. and perhaps more companies will start making more parts for our cars as the Mercedes NLA list grows. With the E500E, at least there are many identical parts from the E420/400E and even the E320/300E. @gerryvz you are right--the muscle car world is so much larger than the niche vintage Mercedes.

 

[maw1124]

My only modern cars are also "modern classics", in that all are cult following cars that are over 15 years old. So keeping them on the road is an interesting endeavor. But I can't see anything modern I want to own just yet. I say this having just left a MB store shopping for my wife's next EClass. Nice cars; not for me -- I'm not smart or unfocused enough to appreciate all that's going on in the car. I don't want to talk to my car, I don't want a personalized lighting and aircon profile, nor do I want to set one up, yadaX3. But I digress.

I'm a big one for used OEM parts when appropriate -- metal, wood, leather, electronics (if no Becker refurb is available), etc. But for many hoses (and this is a particular problem with the Allroad 4.2, which is more rare and has as many bespoke parts as this one it seems), that just doesn't work. I'll roll with it as long as it makes sense to roll with it (no monthly payment and plenty of hobby time help me make sense of it), but I can see where it's a problem.

I mean, a 20year old coolant pipe is likely just wasted labor.

maw

 

[emerydc8]

My only modern cars are also "modern classics", in that all are cult following cars that are over 15 years old. So keeping them on the road is an interesting endeavor. But I can't see anything modern I want to own just yet. I say this having just left a MB store shopping for my wife's next EClass. Nice cars; not for me -- I'm not smart or unfocused enough to appreciate all that's going on in the car. I don't want to talk to my car, I don't want a personalized lighting and aircon profile, nor do I want to set one up, yadaX3. But I digress.

maw

Every day, I drive by the Mercedes dealer and look at what they are selling. It's hideous. Honestly, I can't tell the difference between what they're selling and a Japanese or Korean model, especially their SUVs. It's really sad how far the company has fallen. On the occasion that I drive through the lot on my way to the parts department, I notice I get a lot of looks from people in the lot. I can't help but wonder, when they see my car, if they're thinking to themselves that they would be more interested in a new W124, if there was such an animal, because it is immediately recognizable as a German car and was made back when the accountants and sales department weren't running the company. Those days are over. Mercedes is primarily a lease company that is riding off a name and status symbol from the past that they no longer deserve.

I think the fact that we can do our own maintenance on these cars is a privilege we take for granted. Most people couldn't afford to pay a shop to keep an old Mercedes running as a daily driver. We don't think much about how much it would cost for someone else to do the work. It's a privilege that we have, much like driving an old muscle car. If you can't work on it yourself, you'll be paying a lot to have someone else do it for you. And when the parts are NLA, will the dealer go looking for another brand? /rant.

On a related note, I saw an article yesterday that BMW is now making it an option to pay by the month to activate front seat heaters. This is the state of the auto industry? I think I'll keep my vintage cars. BMW Charges Drivers $18 A Month For Heated Seat Subscription | ZeroHedge

 

[Markus-MD]

i agree with you ,its an crazy stupid world ,but i love my old Merc Benz and my wife.Maybe sometimes.

 

[JC220]

Every day, I drive by the Mercedes dealer and look at what they are selling. It's hideous. Honestly, I can't tell the difference between what they're selling and a Japanese or Korean model, especially their SUVs. It's really sad how far the company has fallen. On the occasion that I drive through the lot on my way to the parts department, I notice I get a lot of looks from people in the lot. I can't help but wonder, when they see my car, if they're thinking to themselves that they would be more interested in a new W124, if there was such an animal, because it is immediately recognizable as a German car and was made back when the accountants and sales department weren't running the company. Those days are over. Mercedes is primarily a lease company that is riding off a name and status symbol from the past that they no longer deserve.

I think the fact that we can do our own maintenance on these cars is a privilege we take for granted. Most people couldn't afford to pay a shop to keep an old Mercedes running as a daily driver. We don't think much about how much it would cost for someone else to do the work. It's a privilege that we have, much like driving an old muscle car. If you can't work on it yourself, you'll be paying a lot to have someone else do it for you. And when the parts are NLA, will the dealer go looking for another brand? /rant.

On a related note, I saw an article yesterday that BMW is now making it an option to pay by the month to activate front seat heaters. This is the state of the auto industry? I think I'll keep my vintage cars. BMW Charges Drivers $18 A Month For Heated Seat Subscription | ZeroHedge

Heated seat subscription charges that's just ridiculous in the extreme what a bunch of tw%ts in their marketing dept.

Gone are the days of "The best or nothing" but I'll hold onto those cars for as long as I can all the same!

 

[gerryvz]

Note to @RicardoD ... we got some serious stuff going on here ... pay attention !!

 

[xfadmin]

 

[alabbasi]

Heated seat subscription charges that's just ridiculous in the extreme what a bunch of tw%ts in their marketing dept.

Gone are the days of "The best or nothing" but I'll hold onto those cars for as long as I can all the same!

It's the tesla model where you never own what you own. End goal is to continue making money out of the second and third owner until they decide that everybody needs to buy a new car. New 'green' legislation like ultra low emission zones will support these initiatives.

Net result, the consumer loses and the death of classic cars.

 

[Jlaa]

It's the tesla model where you never own what you own. End goal is to continue making money out of the second and third owner until they decide that everybody needs to buy a new car. New 'green' legislation like ultra low emission zones will support these initiatives.

Net result, the consumer loses and the death of classic cars.

Exactly. I will fight EaaS (Everything as a Service) all that I can.

 

[alabbasi]

what makes me laugh is how everyone 23 years ago lost their mind about Microsoft bundling their browser with the OS and now people are quite happy for manufacturers to track every movement and decision they make with their cars and turn features on and off. All these companies will soon be making as much money from your data as they will from selling you cars.

 

[maw1124]

what makes me laugh is how everyone 23 years ago lost their mind about Microsoft bundling their browser with the OS and now people are quite happy for manufacturers to track every movement and decision they make with their cars and turn features on and off. All these companies will soon be making as much money from your data as they will from selling you cars.

It's ALL about the data. Ever since Google changed the internet to version 2.0. Version 1.0, the consumer paid for access. Version 2.0 is the consumer's access is free, and companies pay for the privilege of marketing to them. Version 3.0 is everything is a sensor that monitors what you do -- your phone, your car, your alarm system, your appliances, everything. So they can harvest and monetize that data (as @gerryvz points out below).

maw

 

[JC220]

It's ALL about the data. Ever since Google changed the internet to version 2.0. Version 1.0, the consumer paid for access. Version 2.0 is the consumer's access is free, and companies pay for the privilege of marketing to them. Version 3.0 is everything is a sensor that monitors what you do -- your phone, your car, your alarm system, your appliances, everything.

maw

 

[gerryvz]

Maw has an excellent, if a bit simplified, point.

Basically it's all about collecting and analyzing as much data as possible, and monetizing it for profit by whatever means possible. Even better if monetized "as a service" to create a recurring revenue stream, in addition to selling the data.

 

[RicardoD]

It's the tesla model where you never own what you own. End goal is to continue making money out of the second and third owner until they decide that everybody needs to buy a new car. New 'green' legislation like ultra low emission zones will support these initiatives.

Net result, the consumer loses and the death of classic cars.

The is strong with this one!

 

[alabbasi]

The is strong with this one!

A lime green 'modded ' Tesla model 3 with a GIANT DTM spoiler and sub woofer blaring was cruising around downtown Columbus today. It's nice to see the young JDM crowd getting into them.

I recently looked for replacement engine and transmission mounts for a recently purchased W109 300SEL 3.5. The only parts available aftermarket today are URO. Lemforder stopped selling air bags but fortunately MB still has a supply of them.