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FYI Tip for when M119 oil pump loses prime

gsxr

.036 Hoonigan™, E500E Boffin, @DITOG
Staff member
I recently replaced the oil level sender in one of my cars, due to a leaking O-ring. Only the O-ring needed replacement, but I figured since the sending unit was 30 years old, it was worth the $50 for a new one (which includes new O-rings). After draining the oil and removing the oil pan, I went out of town for a few days, and completed the job when I returned. Total time with the oil pan removed was about 1 week.

Filled up with new oil, started the engine, and... no oil pressure. Uh-oh. Triple checked everything, tried again, still nothing. 😵 Well, that's not good. I've done this job multiple times on other M119's and never had this issue. I thought in the past I had left the pan off for days, a week, or longer... but can't say for sure. At any rate, the oil pump lost its prime and wasn't sucking anything out of the pan. The FSM says to fill a new pump with oil prior to installing, but I was hoping to avoid dropping the pan again, and wasn't crazy about removing the pump either.

At first I thought maybe this could be rectified by filling the filter housing, but NOPE. The check valve in the housing prevents oil from flowing back to the pump. If you fill the filter housing, this only speeds up pressurized oil getting to the oil galleys in the engine. This will not fix a situation where the pump itself has lost prime and is not sucking oil out of the sump.

Anyway - @jhodg5ck to the rescue! 😁 He suggested connecting a shop vacuum in reverse, so it would blow air into the crankcase, to pressurize it. You also must disconnect and plug the PCV hoses from both valve covers. Not all shop vacs have an "exhaust" connection where the hose will plug into. I have 2 shop vacs, one had the outlet, the other did not. The vac sucks dirt in but the exhaust is filtered air, assuming the vac filter is present and intact. Wouldn't hurt to check/clean the filter before proceeding. I also wrapped a clean rag around the end of the hose where it stuffed into the oil filler cap, to catch any debris from blowing into the engine, and help seal the hose to the valve cover.

Fired up the shop vac and cranked the engine (with CKP disconnected, so it wouldn't fire)... still no oil pressure. I didn't time how long I cranked but it was enough that I was concerned about the battery draining. I'd guess 15-20 seconds. Not looking promising. I wondered if the cranking RPM was too slow. As a last resort, I decided to start the engine and let it idle with the vac pressurizing the crankcase. I figured 10 seconds was a reasonable time, if oil pressure didn't build within 10 seconds, I'd shut it off. Turned on the vac, started the engine, and about 5-6 seconds later - OIL PRESSURE! :relieved: Crisis averted.

Note that the oil level on the dipstick was approximately between the midpoint and MAX marks. Another possibility would be adding oil to the MAX level, or slightly above MAX... this may help get the oil level closer to the pump mechanism so there's less air to move. I couldn't try this because I did not have any "extra" Red Line oil of the same viscosity handy, and I didn't want to mix oils. Remember once the oil filter housing fills up, the level in the sump will drop ~0.5 quart. The overfill would be temporary and should result in a level at or below MAX once the pump primes and fills the filter.


Top Gear Top Tip: If you have the oil pan empty (or removed) overnight or longer, and oil pressure does not build within about 5 seconds after filling/starting the engine... immediately skip to the methods above to reprime the pump. Don't keep cranking or idling the engine, the pump will not prime itself. See note below from FSM job 18-2100.


Thanks again to Jono for the assistance!

:jono:

1755005917486.png
 
Oh dear, I can feel your frustration through the screen. The fact that you typed this up …. especially as you reached out to Jono for help …. 😬😬😬😬. You must be so relieved! 😂
 
BTW - I also pinged Klink, and he had the same suggestion to pressurize the sump. I would NEVER have thought of this! And, that's why Jono and Klink are Jedi Masters, and I remain a Padawan.
This means that @gsxr had the biggest code-brown moment in a loooooonnngggg while! Congratulations for powering through that stress! I don't ever want to be where you've been with my own car. (Klink and Jono --- well --- I suspect it feels different with OPC [other people's cars]?)
 
Is there a way to view the oil pressure on cars that don’t have the oil pressure gauge in the instrument cluster? I think the coil over plug R129 and W/C140 had them still but not a 1997 E420. Can’t recall if this is displayed as live data over HHT.

I had removed the oil pan on the E60 and would’ve never thought this could happen.
 
Is there a way to view the oil pressure on cars that don’t have the oil pressure gauge in the instrument cluster?
Not easily, no. I think the cars without a gauge also deleted the sending unit, and only have a level sensor. The main warning is the engine is louder / ticking more than normal.


I think the coil over plug R129 and W/C140 had them still but not a 1997 E420. Can’t recall if this is displayed as live data over HHT.
Nope, the ECU's have no connection to oil pressure data.



I had removed the oil pan on the E60 and would’ve never thought this could happen.
Me neither! In 20 years of M119 ownership over a dozen different engines, this never happened before. As @Jlaa noted, it was a serious Code Brown moment, lol. :poop:

:run:
 
I changed out oil sender and it didn't work was eratic and died.. I havnt seen oil presure for 25 ,years ....car runs perfect now best it ever has....just don't need it and don't care about it at all....lol
 
Thanks for the information.

This exact thing happened to me.

I have a W126 SEC with an M119.960 engine (CIS-E) and tried changing the oil last week. I used an extractor to suck the oil out through the dipstick tube to avoid having to drop the pan. The oil removal part went well and the refill was easy, but no oil pressure when cranking (coils disconnected). I tried starting it up, but still no oil pressure. I used Grok to research a solution and it suggested dropping the oil filter housing to provide oil directly to the upstream side of the oil pump. I placed an order for new seals and am still waiting for the parts.

I'll give the reverse vacuum cleaner method a try and will report back.

A potential complication in my case is an external oil cooler. My oil filter housing has hose connections to feed the oil cooler (in front of the passenger-side wheel).
 
This exact thing happened to me.

I have a W126 SEC with an M119.960 engine (CIS-E) and tried changing the oil last week. I used an extractor to suck the oil out through the dipstick tube to avoid having to drop the pan. The oil removal part went well and the refill was easy, but no oil pressure when cranking (coils disconnected).
How long was the sump empty? Usually, if only empty for a few hours or maybe overnight, there should be no problem after refilling (assuming the oil pump was not removed).


I tried starting it up, but still no oil pressure. I used Grok to research a solution and it suggested dropping the oil filter housing to provide oil directly to the upstream side of the oil pump. I placed an order for new seals and am still waiting for the parts.
I believe this should work to prime the pump, but it isn't easy to R&R the filter housing, and you'd need a funnel with a long flexible spout to direct oil into the correct port on the block.


A potential complication in my case is an external oil cooler. My oil filter housing has hose connections to feed the oil cooler (in front of the passenger-side wheel).
That will add time and headache if you remove the filter housing. 😟


I'll give the reverse vacuum cleaner method a try and will report back.
Sounds good! Hope it works. Remember to plug the PCV hoses.


:apl:
 
How long was the sump empty? Usually, if only empty for a few hours or maybe overnight, there should be no problem after refilling (assuming the oil pump was not removed).



I believe this should work to prime the pump, but it isn't easy to R&R the filter housing, and you'd need a funnel with a long flexible spout to direct oil into the correct port on the block.



That will add time and headache if you remove the filter housing. 😟



Sounds good! Hope it works. Remember to plug the PCV hoses.


:apl:
Hi,

The sump was empty for less than an hour. I used an extractor to remove the old oil. While the extractor was working, I removed the old oil filter, replaced the filter, the gaskets and crush washer and tightened the bolt to 25 NM. I then poured the new oil in and verified the oil level. Disconnected the coils and cranked the engine. No oil pressure.

I then spent a considerable amount of time trying to resolve the issue. To no avail.

This morning I finally found some time to try the pressure method with my trusty shop-vac and it worked like a charm.

I used duct tape to seal the vacuum hose to the oil cap and to block off the evap hose to the air intake.

I also overfilled the oil pan, taking it from the half point on the dipstick all the way above max.

Cranked the engine over for about 20 seconds (coils disconnected) - no oil pressure. Cranked it again for 20 seconds and this time the oil pressure was building past the 2 mark. Connected the coils and it started right up with the oil pressure going to 3.

Ran the car for about 3 minutes and then got rid of the excess oil. Ran it for another 5 minutes and declared victory.
 

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Congrats on the successful prime! And, I'm really surprised this happened with the sump only empty for 1 hour. I wonder if something else is going on. Have you ever dropped the lower oil pan to verify the rubber pickup boot is present and intact? Really not sure what would cause this except possibly excess play in the oil pump gears?

:scratchchin:
 
Congrats on the successful prime! And, I'm really surprised this happened with the sump only empty for 1 hour. I wonder if something else is going on. Have you ever dropped the lower oil pan to verify the rubber pickup boot is present and intact? Really not sure what would cause this except possibly excess play in the oil pump gears?
Yeah, I've never had this issue before. This was the first time I used an extractor, but it's hard to see how that could cause this issue. I haven't planned on dropping the oil pan any time soon, but for the next oil change I'll use a borescope to check on the oil pickup boot.
 
If allowed - a slightly bit off-topic here (I will share this on the 126board later too, since it's a M117-story..)

1) Car Ranger - Euro 560 SEC (compression 10:1 299PS/295bhp high output) top speed and acceleration


&

2) Here is how an M117.965 (5.0 AKR-EZL after 09.1987 - 265PS/261bhp) without cats and 10:1 compression goes (just as the one I once owned)

Look at the red Porsche 911 as from minute 8:55 - same thing actually happened to me on the 500SE I had in Spain, when a 996 Turbo slammed it and dropped me behind!


Alberto
 

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