W124 E320 stalls randomly

[see36]

I have been trying to figure out why my 95 e320 wagon keeps stalling randomly. It only happens after the car has been running for about a half hour, it has happened twice while driving and 3 times while idling in park and it gives no warning before it dies it just cuts right out... I have replaced fuel pumps, fuel pump relay, cam and crank pos sensors, and all of the fuses trying to fix this problem.. Usually after the car dies it will start if you let it sit for a few minutes then it runs fine after. Has anyone had a similar problem on their car? or can offer any ideas before I go throwing anymore parts at this car?

 

[captruff]

Maybe try an new OVP?


Jeff

 

[kwontumspeed]

Pull line coming off your pressure regulator and if you smell gas it's faulty.

 

[captruff]

Pull line coming off your pressure regulator and if you smell gas it's faulty.

Good call!

Jeff

 

[see36]

The OVP was next on the list but I will check the pressure regulator!

 

[gerryvz]

Stop replacing parts randomly !!

Clear all codes stored. Drive the car. Let it die again a few more times. The. Pull codes again and analyze.

The only way you will solve the problem is to properly get data and make a diagnosis.

Throwing parts at the problem has proven futile thus far, and likely will continue to be until you are able to get a proper, data-based diagnosis.

It’s not hard to do this with the blink codes.

 

[see36]

Stop replacing parts randomly !!

Clear all codes stored. Drive the car. Let it die again a few more times. The. Pull codes again and analyze.

The only way you will solve the problem is to properly get data and make a diagnosis.

Throwing parts at the problem has proven futile thus far, and likely will continue to be until you are able to get a proper, data-based diagnosis.

It’s not hard to do this with the blink codes.

What is the process for that?

 

[Kyiv]

What is the process for that?

Settle in for a good read:

HOW-TO: Checking DTC's (Diagnostic Trouble Codes) on the 500E/E500

 

[nocfn]

 

[gerryvz]

 

[kwontumspeed]

Stop replacing parts randomly !! ...

I do agree with this position 100% and it's the shortest route to the root cause. But... there's a certain side of me that kicks in and rationalizes that these parts are 25 years old and if it hasn't failed yet, it will very soon. Let's play this game and chase down the circuit and replace parts back to new OE so that I don't have to worry about them anymore. Of course this applies more now that I've decided to keep the 092, the cost and ease of the job playing a role, along with having multiple vehicles(time) and expendable income(see note about cost) to engage in such a game.

But I digress. Yes, pull the codes.

 

[gsxr]

Pulling codes is the best place to start. If there are NO codes... then you start looking at items which are not monitored by the computes and will not have codes stored (on the M104, this is primarily the fuel system - FPR, pumps, etc).

 

[see36]

I do agree with this position 100% and it's the shortest route to the root cause. But... there's a certain side of me that kicks in and rationalizes that these parts are 25 years old and if it hasn't failed yet, it will very soon. Let's play this game and chase down the circuit and replace parts back to new OE so that I don't have to worry about them anymore. Of course this applies more now that I've decided to keep the 092, the cost and ease of the job playing a role, along with having multiple vehicles(time) and expendable income(see note about cost) to engage in such a game.

But I digress. Yes, pull the codes.

That was my thought exactly, the parts are all original and weren't too expensive or very difficult to replace so I figured I will replace them... But it's starting to get a little out of hand.. I will try to pull the codes this weekend hopefully that gets to the root of my problem

 

[see36]

So I just went outside and tried the blink test, held the button down for a few seconds and nothing happened.. tried a few times and no blinks.

Would this point to OVP? or am I looking for something else.. I have already replaced both fuel pumps, fpr, filter, crank pos sensor, cam pos sensor, and all fuses and it continues to stall after running for about a half hour

 

[see36]

I also checked for the smell of gas from the pressure regulator and it does not smell

 

[gsxr]

So I just went outside and tried the blink test, held the button down for a few seconds and nothing happened.. tried a few times and no blinks.

If your CEL is not on, there would be no blinks using the build-in LED and button. A separate, hand-held blinker box is needed to check codes on the HFM (fuel/ignition) computer, and EA/CC/ISC (throttle control) modules.

This document is W124+M104 specific, in case you hadn't seen it yet:
http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/diagnostics/DTC_List_W124_M104.pdf

 

[J. M. van Swaay]

Sure reminds me of the OVP issue many of these cars had years ago. If I remember correctly the problem was intermittent and not easily diagnosed through code retrieval... OVP is not an expensive part and takes a few minutes to swap out. I agree with the others about diagnosis by part replacement, but if this were my car, I would replace the OVP. By the way, I remember something about being able to tell if an OVP was original by the markings or color...

 

[see36]

Sure reminds me of the OVP issue many of these cars had years ago. If I remember correctly the problem was intermittent and not easily diagnosed through code retrieval... OVP is not an expensive part and takes a few minutes to swap out. I agree with the others about diagnosis by part replacement, but if this were my car, I would replace the OVP. By the way, I remember something about being able to tell if an OVP was original by the markings or color...

It seems like every part on this car I have replaced so far has been original.. The car has 128k on it and the problem is very intermittent I have been just letting it idle in my driveway and it will die after about 30 mins regardless if I am driving or not

 

[gerryvz]

The OVP is date-coded.

For example, here is an actual E320 OVP, which I just happened to have in my hands here from my parts stash.

You can see the date code marking: 26.05, which translates to the 26th week of 2005.



DO NOT use a cheap URO or KAH (Kaehler) replacement; get a good used MB factory OVP, or a new Stribel unit, or get a new one from your stealership.

 

[gsxr]

The OVP is date-coded.

You can see the date code marking: 26.05, which translates to the 26th week of 2005.

View attachment 80298

Uh - doesn't that show May 26, 1994 (or 1993)? I can't quite read the last digit.

 

[gerryvz]

Uh - doesn't that show May 26, 1994 (or 1993)? I can't quite read the last digit.

You’re right! I didn’t have my glasses on and didn’t see the last digits. Looks to me like May 26, 1994.

 

[geraniumtr]

See36: I've been driving a 94 E320 for the past 11 years. Have not experienced what you are but here are some comments.
Crank sensor--if bad ( very rare ) car will not start.
Cam sensor--if bad ( again very rare ) car will run but poorly.
Fuel pumps-- not an intermittent failure to my knowledge.
Fuel pump relay-- possible intermittent failure but you replaced it and problem persists.
Obviously +1 on pulling codes. I'll also mention the OVP relay. Not sure if it will set a code if faulty but you could pull it and look for corrosion on any of the pins. I had a no start issue due to this problem.
How old is your wiring harness
Note to Gerry---my understanding is K.A.E. relays are of good quality....no?

Regards,

Peter Weissman

 

[gerryvz]

Note to Gerry---my understanding is K.A.E. relays are of good quality....no?

I've had this discussion with several friends who own or have owned MB repair shops. Their opinion unanimously has been that Kaehler is better than URO or other budget Chinese junk, but not as good as OE/Stribel.

Given the choice, I'd rather install a used OE/Stribel than a new KAE unit, but that's just me.

Would be interesting what Jono says about this. I bet he is not a fan of KAE.

 

[see36]

The OVP is date-coded.

For example, here is an actual E320 OVP, which I just happened to have in my hands here from my parts stash.

You can see the date code marking: 26.05, which translates to the 26th week of 2005.

View attachment 80297 View attachment 80298

The M104/E320 OVP is a slightly different part, but similarly marked. DO NOT use a cheap URO or KAH (Kaehler) replacement; get a good used MB factory OVP, or a new Stribel unit, or get a new one from your stealership.

I was going to order the Stribel part from FCP euro

I am going to pull the OVP today and see if it’s original

As far as I can tell the wiring harness has been replaced but I’m not an expert

I think the throttle body is original though

 

[gerryvz]

As far as I can tell the wiring harness has been replaced but I’m not an expert

I think the throttle body is original though

You can tell if your wiring harness has been replaced in about 2 minutes using this HOW-TO from gsxr:

HOW-TO: Determining the age of your engine wiring harness

On a 1995 E320, you will probably need to remove the battery to get to the date tag on it.

Good luck, and let us know what you find.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[see36]

You can tell if your wiring harness has been replaced in about 2 minutes using this HOW-TO from gsxr:

HOW-TO: Determining the age of your engine wiring harness

On a 1995 E320, you will probably need to remove the battery to get to the date tag on it.

Good luck, and let us know what you find.

Cheers,
Gerry

Wiring harness has been replaced it has a Delphi tag behind the battery.. also OPV looks original and the date is 06 09 94 so I think that is due to be replaced either way

 

[gerryvz]

What does the date say on the Delphi tag?

 

[see36]

What does the date say on the Delphi tag?

11-27-00

 

[gerryvz]

OK, you are good to go on the upper harness. The ETA could be a problem, but you need to clear, then pull, codes. That will actually help you identify whether the ETA is a problem, rather than just throwing a new one at it out of hand.

 

[see36]

I ordered a code reader on ebay last night so I will pull codes as soon as that comes in.. In the meantime I may order a new OVP anyways since it is original

 

[jftu105]

Hfmscan? The ultimate diagnosis tool for E320, 1994-5.

jftu105

 

[jftu105]

Also, you can check the functioning of OVP. It is just a relay assembly. Check it when it is hot. Apparently, your problem is temperature related. However, the location of OVP is behind the fire wall and it does not get too hot.

jftu105

 

[Stevester 500E]

I ordered a code reader on ebay last night so I will pull codes as soon as that comes in.. In the meantime I may order a new OVP anyways since it is original

Its always good to have a code reader.
But If your car doesn't throw codes, as stated by others check the OVP, pressure regulator and other parts tha go bad without throwing codes/
I had a crank position sensor go bad with similar similar symptoms your cars has.
My car would stall when warm. I would let it sit until completely cold and it would start up again.

 

[see36]

So I got the code reader and installed the new OVP (wasn't the issue)

I cleared code from some ports before running the car again but maybe not the correct ones.. I'm not exactly sure which port to plug the yellow prong into or what codes I should be looking out for??

Where should I be looking up the codes that I get from the car?

Codes that I pulled after the car died again yesterday:

Port 6- codes 3,8
Port 7- code 13
Port 8- codes 4, 24

I cleared them all and am currently waiting for the car to die

 

[see36]

I don't really understand what the pin 8 codes are telling me, the others seem insignificant.. I read the document gsxr sent but again I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking for

 

[gerryvz]

The Pin 8 codes (and these are the non-specific "blink" codes, not the detailed 3-digit codes), are telling you that there are issues with the MAF, and with the crankshaft sensor.

Again, don't put too much faith in these codes. Now that you've cleared them, wait to see what comes back. The MAF may well indeed be the cause of the problem, IMHO the crankshaft sensor probably less so.

 

[see36]

Both of them have been replaced do you think the MAF or crankshaft sensor are defective?

 

[gerryvz]

Not at this point. You need to drive the car and pull the codes, and see what comes back.

 

[gsxr]

Where should I be looking up the codes that I get from the car?

The link is back in post #16 above.

 

[see36]

Okay so I cleared all codes, drove the car, got stuck for a half hour waiting for it to cool down (once it has cooled off with the hood open it starts back up) and then re checked the codes and here is what I got:

Port 8 is still showing codes 4 and 24
Port 3 is now showing codes 10 and 16

This is also a California car.. not sure if that makes a difference but it probably has some extra BS that it doesn't need

 

[see36]

So the PDF you sent says voltage at MAF too high and closed throttle position information defective.. does that mean the throttle body wiring is failing?

 

[see36]

Any ideas guys?

 

[see36]

One of the codes that the car has is 'closed throttle position information defective' would that indicate that the throttle body wiring is failing? or is there a throttle position sensor I should be looking for?

I've been having trouble finding anyone else with the same problem as me.. car runs fine when its cold up until it dies, then after it cools down and decides it wants to start it runs great until it stalls again.

 

[Stevester 500E]

When my M104 ETA went wonky, I got a surging idle all the time. Then I took a risk and twisted the pig tail a bit and sometimes the surge would go away. I replaced it with an updated used unit and that solved the issue. I kept the original to rewire at a later date. I have new wires but the old ETA is in a box and will probably sit there until big Pharma invents an anti-procrastination pill.

As said in previous post, I did have a stalling when hot condition, on an M104 (c36 amg) and that was resolved with a new crank position sensor.
That is about all I can say...

Any check your FPR and hose going to it... not much else I can add.

 

[see36]

When my M104 ETA went wonky, I got a surging idle all the time. Then I took a risk and twisted the pig tail a bit and sometimes the surge would go away. I replaced it with an updated used unit and that solved the issue. I kept the original to rewire at a later date. I have new wires but the old ETA is in a box and will probably sit there until big Pharma invents an anti-procrastination pill.

As said in previous post, I did have a stalling when hot condition, on an M104 (c36 amg) and that was resolved with a new crank position sensor.
That is about all I can say...

Any check your FPR and hose going to it... not much else I can add.

I have been suspect of a defective Crank pos sensor since I replaced that already (this was the first thing to get replaced) with a Rein part and the problem never got any better.. I think I am going to look into that next. The car idles and runs perfectly which makes me think the ETA isn't an issue just yet, but should probably be replaced at some point anyways.

P.S. They do make the anti-procrastination pill you're looking for its called Aderall

 

[gerryvz]

I would not use Rein stuff on my cars unless you can confirm that it is re-boxed quality made stuff. Unfortunately a lot of Rein boxes stuff is Chinese junk.

 

[see36]

I would not use Rein stuff on my cars unless you can confirm that it is re-boxed quality made stuff. Unfortunately a lot of Rein boxes stuff is Chinese junk.

It was actually a Bosch my bad..

Could it be the Crankshaft Position Sensor, EZL sender? Does my car have that part? I changed just the sensor not the wiring to the sensor, assuming that it was part of the main wiring harness..

 

[see36]

When my M104 ETA went wonky, I got a surging idle all the time. Then I took a risk and twisted the pig tail a bit and sometimes the surge would go away. I replaced it with an updated used unit and that solved the issue. I kept the original to rewire at a later date. I have new wires but the old ETA is in a box and will probably sit there until big Pharma invents an anti-procrastination pill.

As said in previous post, I did have a stalling when hot condition, on an M104 (c36 amg) and that was resolved with a new crank position sensor.
That is about all I can say...

Any check your FPR and hose going to it... not much else I can add.

When you changed your Crank sensor did you change just the sensor or the wiring as well or is the wiring part of the main harness? Just want to make sure of everything before I go ordering any more parts

 

[Stevester 500E]

The wiring harness om my c36 was the eco junk, so I replaced that first.
The problem persisted. The I replace the crank position sensor and that solved the issue.