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Bring a Trailer (BaT) Auctions: Worth Listing Your Car or Not?
- Thread starter ace10
- Start date
I don't think its just BaT or just cars.
+ Housing has flatlined. Looking at the stocks of the big national builders --- all these taken a dive in the past quarter
+ Houses themselves -- in California all the way from northern to southern CA near the coast --- houses ain't selling anymore.
+ Forward looking P/E on the stock market isn't looking good.
+ Interest rates will increase more. Lastest unemployment figures means the Fed will certainly raise rates in December
+ China's economy is big enough that what's bad for them is also bad for us in the USA, and vice versa. China is down to a 6.7% growth rate and their stock market has taken a beating. Remember when less than double digit growth was considered bad?
+ Trade wars. Trade wars. Trade wars. The average consumer hasn't yet felt the effect --- but will very very soon.
+ Inflation is upon us --- whether its supply side inflation (tariffs) or demand side (wage hikes / interest rate). Anecdote - my local quartz/granite shop just hiked prices 25% across the board due to tariffs ... 2 weeks ago.
Anyways - cars are just a roadkill on the road to recession. People want to keep cash right now.
+ Housing has flatlined. Looking at the stocks of the big national builders --- all these taken a dive in the past quarter
+ Houses themselves -- in California all the way from northern to southern CA near the coast --- houses ain't selling anymore.
+ Forward looking P/E on the stock market isn't looking good.
+ Interest rates will increase more. Lastest unemployment figures means the Fed will certainly raise rates in December
+ China's economy is big enough that what's bad for them is also bad for us in the USA, and vice versa. China is down to a 6.7% growth rate and their stock market has taken a beating. Remember when less than double digit growth was considered bad?
+ Trade wars. Trade wars. Trade wars. The average consumer hasn't yet felt the effect --- but will very very soon.
+ Inflation is upon us --- whether its supply side inflation (tariffs) or demand side (wage hikes / interest rate). Anecdote - my local quartz/granite shop just hiked prices 25% across the board due to tariffs ... 2 weeks ago.
Anyways - cars are just a roadkill on the road to recession. People want to keep cash right now.
They did drop completed auctions from the bottom of the Auctions page.
If you want to find completed auctions I found them at https://bringatrailer.com/auctions/results/
It is in a new drop down in the Auctions tab on the home page.
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spot on. Wage growth is easily going to be eaten up by interest rates and tariffs costs so basically no net gain in household incomes. Administration is in a weaker position to do a China deal now too. They are estimating some huge Christmas selling season this year so I am interested to see how that pans out.
I'm holding my Apple. Just a blip.
Yeah, I've been in it this long, I'm certainly not exiting now. Just a little disconcerting when you see the share price drop $20 in a week, even if the year's gain is still almost 21% despite it.
Dan
There's no question that the stock market plunge (driven by FAANG stocks) has reduced peoples' confidence, and bullish buying psychology. I've been saying this for weeks now. If things keep going down, I expect that we will see many of the recently acquired cars being sold by their new-ish owners. Hopefully at fire-sale prices.
It's amazing what rapid growth in folks' 401ks and stock portfolios does to their psychology.
Take out the No Reserve listings (of which there were 17) and there were 18 RNMs and 24 Solds. So 43% were unsold.
Following up on the earlier discussion abouit BaT moving the "Results" off the main page... they have also changed the nomenclature for No Sale or RNM.
They're now referring to RNM listings as "Bid to $XXXX"
Yeah, no shit the listing was bid to. Any listing which received a bid was "bid to."
I can smell the desperation from these guys.
They've been using the "bid to" term for a while, I believe. I tend to scroll down to these listings on my daily BAT email to see what didn't make is and what failed miserably.
Dan
This is good for those of us in the (car) market right now. I'm waiting in the wings for things to tank. That and the holidays are here, so there are often desperation sales, too....
I'm fairly certain the Bid To was a change in the past week.
Yes, yes and yes. Markets ebb and flow. You want to be buying when people are selling, and selling when people are buying. Some of it is of course stock market driven, since the same buyers, sellers and collectors tend to be investors. Some of it (and the market sell off) is the end of the Free Money Fed — the money should never have been free in the first place, so ending that is inevitable and probably good. So buying time is coming. You can pull the trigger now, but by my sights it’s still a bit early. When I see grown men crying in the streets...
maw
maw
"Bid To" has been used as far back as 2014 from what I can see:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1979-alfa-alfetta-sport-sedan/
That was a retroactive change. They simply changed all of the listings which were indicated by Reserve Not Met.
EDIT. They haven't gotten around to changing the legend on the market graph tool yet.
.
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I think their business is slowing down, likely fairly dramatically in recent weeks.
They were doing so nicely over the past couple of years, that they thought the gravy train would never stop. Now they are scrambling to make adjustments because reality is staring them in the face.
They were doing so nicely over the past couple of years, that they thought the gravy train would never stop. Now they are scrambling to make adjustments because reality is staring them in the face.
And they have diluted their product by having too many auctions at once. I used to read the site to see if anything interesting came up in the discussions. Now there is no point because many auctions have only a little commenting (excluding some regulars who seem to be devoted to promoting each other’s auctions).
Agreed with both. I think they are in the process of killing the golden goose, much of which (I think) is due to becoming less exclusive and simply blowing out as many auctions as they possibly can each day. I'v seen daily numbers as high as the 30s. Kind of tarnishes the luster and dilutes the cachet when you're running that many at a time.
It's becoming more and more of an online Mannheim high line auction. Only difference is the lack of Amish guys driving the cars through the lanes...
It's becoming more and more of an online Mannheim high line auction. Only difference is the lack of Amish guys driving the cars through the lanes...
So BAT publicly shames a buyer who backed out:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2005-mercedes-benz-slk55-amg-2-2/
Previous auction:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2005-mercedes-benz-slk55-amg-2/
Dan
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2005-mercedes-benz-slk55-amg-2-2/
"This is a re-list after the car previously sold on BaT in September 2018 and the winning bidder failed to follow through with his purchase commitment. The sale could not be not completed due to a buyer who disappeared after the auction closed and not due to any fault with the car. That buyer has been banned from any further participation in BaT Auctions and his buyer fee was not refunded."
Previous auction:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2005-mercedes-benz-slk55-amg-2/
Dan
They started this (the text from their site) sometime after Spring/Summer of 2017, maybe later.
It's actually a good thing, there's more to it than meets the eye. For BAT to get to this point, there is more behind the scenes than is evident. I had a guy who "bought" my car pull a bunch of squirrely/manipulative moves to try to get out of the deal after the auction was over. He was clearly an impulsive and emotional guy, he was from south FLA, and after weeks of back & forth, with BAT getting involved, he realized none of his games to back out were going to work. It was too bad, he got a great deal. They banned him, refunded my listing fee (I didn't care about that, the 3 week hassle of dealing with a guy like that was far more of a headache than the small listing fee). They were reticent to relist my car, as I suspect they did not want potential future sellers to see this kind of stuff happening. As the site became more popular and more of this started to happen, they seem to have come up with an official policy and wording (per above). I believe if you, as a buyer, point out there were material misrepresentations and want to back out, they would not do this. For it to get to the point of them making the above statement, the buyer flew the coop or did something off the wall.
It's actually a good thing, there's more to it than meets the eye. For BAT to get to this point, there is more behind the scenes than is evident. I had a guy who "bought" my car pull a bunch of squirrely/manipulative moves to try to get out of the deal after the auction was over. He was clearly an impulsive and emotional guy, he was from south FLA, and after weeks of back & forth, with BAT getting involved, he realized none of his games to back out were going to work. It was too bad, he got a great deal. They banned him, refunded my listing fee (I didn't care about that, the 3 week hassle of dealing with a guy like that was far more of a headache than the small listing fee). They were reticent to relist my car, as I suspect they did not want potential future sellers to see this kind of stuff happening. As the site became more popular and more of this started to happen, they seem to have come up with an official policy and wording (per above). I believe if you, as a buyer, point out there were material misrepresentations and want to back out, they would not do this. For it to get to the point of them making the above statement, the buyer flew the coop or did something off the wall.
Is ‘no-show’ shaming a BAT rarity? If so, its interesting the seller in this case is Dean.
Based on my observations, I would assume he (single handedly) has been responsible for a large percentage of their theoretical profit...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Based on my observations, I would assume he (single handedly) has been responsible for a large percentage of their theoretical profit...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Is ‘no-show’ shaming a BAT rarity? If so, its interesting the seller in this case is Dean.
Based on my observations, I would assume he (single handedly) has been responsible for a large percentage of their theoretical profit...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I believe no show shaming did not publicly exist on BAT before the 2nd half of 2017. It has now become more frequent as they have gotten bigger. I have seen it increasing more often in the last 6 months than I would have expected.
There is still a reasonable deterrent for a no show - you lose your entire deposit.
The buyer of my 1982 300D told me that he got shafted by a BAT buyer in a previous auction. The guy went dark after the auction, and despite numerous calls from both the seller and apparently someone at BAT they determined the buyer wasn't going to follow through. This took over a week to resolve, meaning that other potential buyers were moving on. After BAT decided the sale was dead they gave the seller the contact information for the next highest bidder. The seller reached out to them and ultimately made the sale, albeit for less than the buyer had originally bid.
When I sold a 1990 350SDL on BAT the high bidder was a bit of a flake, and took nearly a week to respond to me. I was getting a bit concerned, at which time the BAT person involved with the auction assured me that if they determined the high bidder wasn't coming through they would put me in touch with the second highest bidder. This seems to be their modus operandi for such situations. The buyer finally did come through, but it took them almost three weeks to collect the car.
Dan
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I agree. I wonder what Ebay's logic is behind this?
Is it, "there will always be plenty of sellers and items selling, we need to keep the buyers coming back because they are the one's with the cash."
Yes. eBay is like honey badger, they just don't care.
We could have a whole 'nuther thread on eBay's tactics. I buy & sell a fair amount on eBay, but it helps knowing how to run their gauntlet.
Yes, they offered to do that for me also, but in my case, since it took 3 weeks to play out, the 2nd highest bidder had already moved on (too bad, he had come to see the car before bidding). BAT was actually pretty good and helpful, but after 3 weeks of games/drama with original BAT "buyer", I just sold it locally. I needed the garage space by then.
I was happy with BAT and give them credit for permanently bouncing the guy.
Having sold two cars on BAT I have no complaints, just little detail issues I think they would do better to deal with, that's all. The copywriters don't always know the cars, nor (in my cases) did they include what I felt were important points to highlight in the copy. Not a big deal, as I was able to find ways to get these things out in the comments, so they got said anyway.
I'm still perplexed as to their selection process, but it is what it is.
Dan
A listing just came up for a MKIV Supra.
One of the posters made a spot-on discovery in one of the pics... there's a spray can of something in the passenger seat of the car. The commenter made the call for it being a rattle can of flat black paint. Other posters are dismissing it as glass cleaner.
If one looks at the undercarriage pics, it is blatantly obvious that the seller has sprayed the ever loving crap out of certain areas to cover over patina/rust.
I've got my popcorn ready for this one. Seller is brand new to BaT. And there's a lot of passion around this car model. I composed a BaT comment which supports the cover up, but it's likely that it won't see the light of day due to heavy-handed site moderation.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1998-toyota-supra-6/
(And yes, it takes very little to entertain me)
EDIT: BaT published my comment. Amazing.
One of the posters made a spot-on discovery in one of the pics... there's a spray can of something in the passenger seat of the car. The commenter made the call for it being a rattle can of flat black paint. Other posters are dismissing it as glass cleaner.
If one looks at the undercarriage pics, it is blatantly obvious that the seller has sprayed the ever loving crap out of certain areas to cover over patina/rust.
I've got my popcorn ready for this one. Seller is brand new to BaT. And there's a lot of passion around this car model. I composed a BaT comment which supports the cover up, but it's likely that it won't see the light of day due to heavy-handed site moderation.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1998-toyota-supra-6/
(And yes, it takes very little to entertain me)
EDIT: BaT published my comment. Amazing.
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I would be interested to know how this one ended up:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1990-mercedes-benz-300sel-6/
So the seller had a reserve, which is sort of surprising for this car, and it wasn't met. High bidder wants to reach seller, no means of doing so through BAT. Will BAT provide contact information? If so, what's the criteria? How close does the high bid have to be, or is it simply tough beans? If they do give the contact information they won't get their fee, one would presume.
So now there's a seller who has a potential sale yet they have no way of reaching their potential buyer. Hmm. I've often pondered how one could find a way to establish contact with a commenter, seller or bidder on BAT.... maybe someone could set up a forum for BAT posters where they could identify themselves and make contact. I wonder how BAT would react to that? Poorly, I suspect.
Dan
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1990-mercedes-benz-300sel-6/
So the seller had a reserve, which is sort of surprising for this car, and it wasn't met. High bidder wants to reach seller, no means of doing so through BAT. Will BAT provide contact information? If so, what's the criteria? How close does the high bid have to be, or is it simply tough beans? If they do give the contact information they won't get their fee, one would presume.
So now there's a seller who has a potential sale yet they have no way of reaching their potential buyer. Hmm. I've often pondered how one could find a way to establish contact with a commenter, seller or bidder on BAT.... maybe someone could set up a forum for BAT posters where they could identify themselves and make contact. I wonder how BAT would react to that? Poorly, I suspect.
Dan
@ace10 - the Supra is over $50k with another day to go, despite the rattle-can controversy? 
@LWB250 - fingers crossed that when people get all those phat tax returns in springtime, they'll be looking to blow the windfall on cars again.
I'm sure BaT feels the same as eBay about buyers & sellers sharing contact information. I don't see how they would ever allow this, unless the buyer was willing to pay BaT the comission at the "bid to" price, if not the actual private-sale price. Or they could coordinate a private sale for the 2 parties, which they'd probably prefer as it would tick off a box in the "we sold another car!" column. Strange they don't already have something in place to handle these situations. Can't a buyer just relist the car on Craigslist and then post in the comments to go see the CL ad?
@LWB250 - fingers crossed that when people get all those phat tax returns in springtime, they'll be looking to blow the windfall on cars again.
I'm sure BaT feels the same as eBay about buyers & sellers sharing contact information. I don't see how they would ever allow this, unless the buyer was willing to pay BaT the comission at the "bid to" price, if not the actual private-sale price. Or they could coordinate a private sale for the 2 parties, which they'd probably prefer as it would tick off a box in the "we sold another car!" column. Strange they don't already have something in place to handle these situations. Can't a buyer just relist the car on Craigslist and then post in the comments to go see the CL ad?
Ace,
After reading the commentary and looking at the pics, IMOP, the guy selling this Supra is pretty anal about anybody even touching the car during service. He may have used a rattle can to sharpen the underside up a little but I don’t think he is covering up anything that would make a buyer refuse to take delivery. My only comment on the touch up paint is that I would expect and hope he prepped it so it doesn’t just flake off.
IMOP, this car is ultra clean and well taken care of and I expect there will be a flurry of last minute bidding. I would expect it to go for top $$$ whatever that might be for these cars. I usually don’t read the fine print is there a reserve?
lol
The seller is doing a great job tugging on the heart strings. And the commenters are slurping it up. He's denied doing any such thing.
There's no question that there was a liberal application of rattle can.
I'm mean c'mon....
.
In my best estimation, there was a spraying some time (or times) in the past, and then it was "touched up" just before the pics were taken.
Every BaT auction has a reserve, unless it says "No Reserve" at the top of the listing. Here's a sample of what a No Reserve listing looks like:
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1987-mercedes-benz-420-sel-8/
Attachments
I was under the impression on RNM that BAT will connect high bidder and seller and if they strike a deal BAT gets zero (except original listing fee). If that is accurate I think that is pretty good for sellers & buyers. I do know that if a deal falls through with buyer (buyer/high bidder backs out and reserve was met) BAT will connect you will 2nd high bidder and will not collect auction fee.
BaT states that they provide the high (non winning) bidder and seller the contact info for one another.
I've heard it doesn't always happen, though.
Yes, they lose their fee.
If you're interested in a car, it's best to obtain the sellers info via the "Contact Seller" mechanism prior to the hammer.
Ahh, good point - hadn't thought of that. Best to be proactive on a car you're interested in and get contact information from the seller before the auction closes, I guess...
Dan
I happened on the results yesterday. You probably know already but the Supra Turbo went for $66,388.00 plus whatever fees they tack on. Looks like top $$$ to me but I have no idea. I don’t follow these cars.
The winning bidder was a Tennessee Toyota Dealer. Says he is going to display it on the showroom floor next to another Silver Supra. I would expect to see it again when the Dealer gets tired of looking at them UNLESS he gets a real buyer w/ lots of $$$.
Doesn't BaT take bidder's credit card info and charge them the commission/fee even if the sale doesn't consummate...?
EDIT: From their FAQ's - why can't they link at the TOP of the page?
Q: Why is there a charge / hold on my card?
A: When bidding, we place a hold on your card for 5% of your initial bid amount with a minimum hold of $250 and maximum of $5000. Should you win the auction, that hold will be converted to a charge. If not, the hold will be released immediately at auction end. It can sometimes take a few days for your bank to release the funds.
A: When bidding, we place a hold on your card for 5% of your initial bid amount with a minimum hold of $250 and maximum of $5000. Should you win the auction, that hold will be converted to a charge. If not, the hold will be released immediately at auction end. It can sometimes take a few days for your bank to release the funds.
This looks a bit shilly to me. Winner is a brand new BaT user and allegedly flakes, after driving the price up ~20% from the 3rd highest bidder ($50k vs $40k). If AugustReilly is a shill, he bumped the sale price nearly $10k, if Nchartouni completes the sale.
$51,000 = AugustReilly (winner who flaked)
$50,500 = Nchartouni (2nd highest bidder, who lost the bidding war)
$41,500 = scottyd40 (3rd highest bidder)
$34,250 = KevinT (4th highest bidder)
$50,500 = Nchartouni (2nd highest bidder, who lost the bidding war)
$41,500 = scottyd40 (3rd highest bidder)
$34,250 = KevinT (4th highest bidder)
Yes. When you place a bid, the charge is secured. It is released when you are outbid. If you are not outbid, the charge is confirmed by BaT.
I think BaT should have a mechanism where the buyer's bid includes the uplift from the previous high bid. So if the winning bidder drove the price up from $40K to $50K, the buyer would be on the hook for $12.5K ($10K + 5% BaT fee). The seller would get the $10K and could then complete the sale with the 2nd highest bidder for $40K (and no Buyer fee to the runner up).
Robert
I think BaT should have a mechanism where the buyer's bid includes the uplift from the previous high bid. So if the winning bidder drove the price up from $40K to $50K, the buyer would be on the hook for $12.5K ($10K + 5% BaT fee). The seller would get the $10K and could then complete the sale with the 2nd highest bidder for $40K (and no Buyer fee to the runner up).
Robert
I really like this idea, as it’s not only fair, it directly penalizes someone who is a shill or not a serious bidder.
Dan
The downside of that system is that a sale might fall through because the seller misrepresented the car. You could say that’s the buyer’s problem for not doing proper diligence before bidding. But realistically for a one week auction there isn’t much time for diligence. So I think the effect would be a significant chill on bidding. And I’m sure BaT has good enough lawyers to avoid getting into decisions about whether the buyer flakes or the seller misrepresented.
I think the current system is about as good as you can make it. The 5% commission should ensure that most buyers are serious. But you can’t make rules to eliminate all a$&holes and idiots. Besides, as alluded to above, I bet a lot of non sales are a result of shill bidding. At one point I thought it would be good to give the seller the 5% commission if the buyer backs out. But that would mean no consequence for shill bidding.
I think the current system is about as good as you can make it. The 5% commission should ensure that most buyers are serious. But you can’t make rules to eliminate all a$&holes and idiots. Besides, as alluded to above, I bet a lot of non sales are a result of shill bidding. At one point I thought it would be good to give the seller the 5% commission if the buyer backs out. But that would mean no consequence for shill bidding.
Points well taken. I can see where this could potentially backfire, not to mention scare some bidders off. For that matter, you would think the threat of losing 5% of the bid to be a deterrent as well. Apparently not for some....I know of a failed buyer who forfeited their fee and got banned. I think it was in the area of $600-$700, but I guess that's cheaper than following through on a deal you either don't want or can't afford. As for the banning, that would be easy enough to circumvent I would think.
Dan
Check this one out. CL gets called out for being a hunk of junk, seller gets mad, causes trouble for BaT and gets banned. Wow.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001-mercedes-benz-cl600-5/
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/2001-mercedes-benz-cl600-5/
This listing has been withdrawn by BaT because something during this auction was not fair for the buyer and/or the seller. It might be re-listed in a future BaT Auction if this can be corrected and, if so, we will email all watchers of this listing. We apologize for the inconvenience.
bringatrailer
After a back and forth with the seller, it has become clear that he intends to take steps that will cause problems for the eventual winner. As a result, we are forced to withdraw this auction, a step we rarely take. This seller will no longer be allowed to bid, sell, or otherwise participate on BaT. We apologize for any inconvenience and appreciate your support of the site.
-BaT
bringatrailer
After a back and forth with the seller, it has become clear that he intends to take steps that will cause problems for the eventual winner. As a result, we are forced to withdraw this auction, a step we rarely take. This seller will no longer be allowed to bid, sell, or otherwise participate on BaT. We apologize for any inconvenience and appreciate your support of the site.
-BaT
What the heck does this mean? ^^^
What "steps" would a seller take to cause problems for the buyer?
I think there was probably a chance that car wasn't going to sell for very much. So the seller probably wasn't going to sell it for that even though it was a no reserve auction and probably told BaT that.
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