Ticking after warmed up (Has metal Oilers)

[grim 140]

I replaced the cam oilers last May 2020. Drove great and no ticking since replacing cam oilers.
Pulled it out of its winter nap. May 2021 and fired it up no ticking but After warming up. It started ticking on the Lt side valve cover. Close to the front is where I hear it.
It is consistent when cold..no Tick, when warm the ticking starts. I have not done timing chain guides yet.
This Mercedes has 135000 on it. Anything I should look for? Also, I removed the serpentine belt to see if it is any accessories causing this. Nope still ticking there when the belt is removed.

 

[gsxr]

What brand & viscosity oil are you using?

 

[grim 140]

What brand & viscosity oil are you using?

5w30 Mobil 1 high mileage synthetic.

 

[Joncf]

5w30 Mobil 1 high mileage synthetic.

That’s too light. The lightest weight oil should be 5W-40, preferably heavier (10W-40) for the M119. I believe 5W-30 wasn’t approved by Mercedes.

 

[grim 140]

Correction!! the sound of the ticking is more in the middle in the valve cover.

 

[gsxr]

Any chance you can post a video capturing the ticking noise when warm? Also, have you heard M119 ticking lifters before and know exactly what they sound like?

Anyway - 5W-30 is thinner than I'd recommend, and MAY be causing the noise when at operating temp. If you like Mobil-1 (and/or like the low price of the 5qt jugs), I'd switch to either 10W-40 High Mileage, or 15W-50. There's a decent chance this alone may cure the ticking, if it is indeed a lifter.

 

[grim 140]

I was going by the owner's manual. Based on the climate I'm driving in which is summertime in Michigan.
Hopefully, I'm reading it correctly?

 

[grim 140]

I will give it a shot. I'll change the oil viscosity to one of the above-mentioned!
Also yes the ticking sounds like cam oilers. I pulled them from the junkyard and cleaned them!
new o-rings and torque to spec. I'll get a video here in a minute for ya on the sound.

 

[grim 140]

Here ya go on the video!

 

[gsxr]

The manual indicates 5W-30 should be ok for ambient temps up to ~86°F, but it's still on the thin side for the M119. Since there is no tick when cold and it ticks at normal operating temps, I'd try the thicker oil for grins. The thicker synthetics would still be ok down to at least 0°F if not colder, since they flow much better than non-synthetics at sub-zero temps.

The video does seem to sound like a couple of lifters ticking. Were any of the old plastic tubes popped? Did you inspect the chain rails while the valve covers were off, or at least verify the "fingered" top rails were all intact?

 

[grim 140]

Honestly, it started ticking and I went ahead and just replaced them but did not see any of them popped or paid attention!
Once replaced the ticking was gone but the ticking noise that originally got my attention last year was on the left side.
Maybe it is the oil viscosity! Also, the rails up top looked good, and couldn't see if any rails were broken.

 

[grim 140]

I'm going to try to change the oil to one of the recommended viscosity and let ya know by tomorrow!

 

[grim 140]

Well I changed the oil to 15w50. Did not help any. It was worth a shot
My question is why would it do it now not last year? Cold no tick once warm it ticks! Here is the video of it after the new oil change.

 

[Kyiv]

@grim 140, I have had exactly same situation as yours. Hot ticking, but not cold. When I replaced plastic oilers to metal ones it seemed to fix the issue for a while, but at some point in time, I've noticed it again. I've used 5w40 229.5 oils and a 5w50 229.3 oil. I figured I'll try Liquid Moly 10W40 MoS2 that MercedesSource guy recommends and it worked. No ticking again

 

[Joncf]

@grim 140, I have had exactly same situation as yours. Hot ticking, but not cold. When I replaced plastic oilers to metal ones it seemed to fix the issue for a while, but at some point in time, I've noticed it again. I've used 5w40 229.5 oils and a 5w50 229.3 oil. I figured I'll try Liquid Moly 10W40 MoS2 that MercedesSource guy recommends and it worked. No ticking again

That’s interesting. I wonder if the 10W made the difference or that specific oil. Have you tried another brand of 10W-40 for comparison?

 

[Kyiv]

That’s interesting. I wonder if the 10W made the difference or that specific oil. Have you tried another brand of 10W-40 for comparison?

No, that's the first 10W40 I ever used. It's still in my sump.

 

[Joncf]

Well I changed the oil to 15w50. Did not help any. It was worth a shot
My question is why would it do it now not last year? Cold no tick once warm it ticks! Here is the video of it after the new oil change.

The main change due to temperature would be the lowering of oil viscosity, which lowers oil pressure. But that’s normal of course. When you replaced oiler tubes, did you use victor Reinz or Genuine MB o-rings on them?

 

[Joncf]

No, that's the first 10W40 I ever used. It's still in my sump.

Do you think you’ll ever try another one?

 

[grim 140]

The main change due to temperature would be the lowering of oil viscosity, which lowers oil pressure. But that’s normal of course. When you replaced oiler tubes, did you use victor Reinz or Genuine MB o-rings on them?

Victor Reinz I believe?
I’m willing to try the liquid molly if it’s worth a shot or take the valve cover off and see what’s going on!
Suggestions?

 

[Joncf]

Victor Reinz I believe?
I’m willing to try the liquid molly if it’s worth a shot or take the valve cover off and see what’s going on!
Suggestions?

I haven’t had this experience personally, but I’ve read a few negative reviews of the fitment of the Reinz o-rings. The complaints were that their outer diameter was not thick enough, thus not providing a good seal. They had noticed this because the tubes were not seating properly. (They would rock back and forth easily instead of clicking tightly into place)

This MIGHT cause a loss of oil pressure to the lifters, but I honestly am not sure. I haven’t heard anyone make this connection before, so I’m not sure this is even possible. What I can say, is I have a set of metal tubes ready to be installed, and decided to go with the genuine MB o-rings. Even though they’re around $40, I believe it’s worth it for peace of mind.

If I were you, I’d at least pull the valve covers and try wiggling the oil tubes to see if there’s movement side to side, or up and down.. before trying another oil.

 

[Kyiv]

Do you think you’ll ever try another one?

I always used a new oil for each fill. I've had the car for close to 40k miles, so that's at least 8 oil changes.... I just remembered.... My very first change was with Castrol Edge 10w40. I first noticed ticking with it in the sump. I was very, very green at a time, so my perception and knowledge were very weak.

After that oil, I was using a different-every-time 5W40 with a 229.5 approval. There was a RedLine 5w50 and a Mobil 5w50 (229.3). All oils had ticking present, except Liqui Molly 5w40, but I put it in right after I changed plastic oilers tubes to metal ones (none of the plastic tubes were popped, by the way). Noticed ticking again when I had Motul 5W40 in there, and not right away, as I want paying attention, since I thought that ticking issue was fixed.

After Motul, I used RedLine 5W30 (late autumn though mid spring), then Mobil 5W50, and now Liqui Moly 10W40 MoS2. Just about right way the ticking was gone. It's just what it is. I can't explain it

 

[Kyiv]

I’m willing to try the liquid molly

That would be an interesting experiment!

 

[Joncf]

After Motul, I used RedLine 5W30 (late autumn though mid spring), then Mobil 5W50, and now Liqui Moly 10W40 MoS2. Just about right way the ticking was gone. It's just what it is. I can't explain it

The only reason I can think of is the high Molybdenum content that acts as an excellent anti-friction additive. It supposedly bonds to the metal very well and lubricates better.

So, it looks like Uncle Kent was right yet again.

 

[Kyiv]

The only reason I can think of is the high Molybdenum content that acts as an excellent anti-friction additive. It supposedly bonds to the metal very well and lubricates better.

So, it looks like Uncle Kent was right yet again.

Let's see if it'll work for grim140, if he decides to try it

 

[grim 140]

I’m going to try the liqui molly first and then if that don’t work. On to popping off the valve cover and checking for loose cam oilers.
I’ll keep ya guys informed.
Should know something by mid week.

 

[gsxr]

I don't think the O-rings are an issue. There would have to be a massive pressure loss (like the popped end of the plastic tube) and I don't think that even an ill-fitting O-ring could cause enough pressure loss to make a difference.

My guess is that either the lifter internals are worn, OR gummed up. But I can't fully explain why it occurs only when hot. I'm also assuming the tubes were FULLY cleaned, including squirting solvent through the holes, and blowing in both directions with compressed air, to verify all had zero debris inside that could restrict flow.

If gummed up, long-term use of good synthetics should eventually clean them out... this was a common issue on the OM60x diesel engines, after years of dino oil usage... 5-10kmi with Group IV/V synthetics would often fix the tick, but in some cases it was simply worn-out lifters that needed replacement to cure the noise.

Just curious, when the valve covers were removed, did the cylinder head and valvetrain parts look brown, or shiny silver?

Brown:


Silver:

 

[TerryA]

Just thinking out loud. Is it possible that one (or more) of the metal tubes was not seated properly? I say or more since it sounds like in the first video that the tick was on both sides.

BTW, What’s with all of these light oils if your not driving in freezing temps? I see no reason for thin oil unless you are racing and think you are getting more HP or a better response when you mash the peddle to the floor.

I know that more modern motors like my 2015 KIA (5-30) are designed for light oils BUT the E500E was not. I can’t believe there is much benefit in it’s use except for freezing temps.

To the best of my knowledge, my car has always had 20-50 oil. I do live in SoCal where we rarely see freezing temps but lots of 90F+ days. I also tried Mobile 1 15-50 once and my car didn’t like it and used more than I expected in 5K miles. I have since used Royal Purple 20-50 for the last 3 changes and can run 6K miles with no significant oil loss on the dip stick.

Anyway that’s what I think and plan on sticking with it until proven wrong by someone or some catastrophic motor failure.

 

[grim 140]

Under the valve cover the color was in between those two colors more leaning toward silver.

 

[grim 140]

Matter of fact I’m going to try and pull the valve cover off today. I’ll let ya know

 

[gsxr]

If you pull the valve cover, inspect the surface of all 16 lifters, and if possible check them by pressing on the lifter when it's against the base circle of the cam (no cam pressure). The lifters should be firm and have no play. If any can be pushed with your fingers, those are suspect and may be the cause of the ticking.

See recent post #12 here, along with the link in post #13:

Timing chain skipped several teeth (320kmi E420) | M119 Engine

So recently my ‘94 E420 engine (320,000 miles) began stumbling barely idling in sonic drive through. Shut it off. Got my food and the engine refused to fire. Pushed it to a parking spot and puzzled over the issue. Eventually called a roll back and had it loaded and hauled home. After...

www.500eboard.co

 

[grim 140]

Here’s some pics. The lifters have no movement. The oilers have a little side movement. Everything is tight. I think I may pull the cam oilers off and make sure they are clean. Thoughts?

 

[gsxr]

Did you rotate the engine so there was no pressure from the cam lobe on the lifters, when you pushed on each lifter? In your photo as shown, you can test #8 intakes, but not #8 exhaust. It's difficult to rotate the crank by hand without pulling the fan clutch (which also isn't fun to remove).

The tubes will always have some movement, this is normal.

Is it my eyes, or does the lifter surface at #7 exhaust seem to have some odd wear? By comparison, #6 exhaust looks normal (mirror smooth).

Your engine looks very clean inside, btw.

 

[grim 140]

Here is a pic close up of 7 lifter exhaust. Funny you should see that! it’s right in that area that I seem to hear the tick at its loudest. With a stethoscope.

 

[gsxr]

It doesn't look too bad, but I'd compare it visually to the other lifters. Will those lifters press down at all, vs others with the cam lobe pointing up?

 

[grim 140]

No they don’t push down. There is some lifters #5 that have that odd ring scratch going on but not as prominent

 

[grim 140]

I’m going to pull the cam oilers and double check to make sure they are clean inside. let ya guys know.

 

[nocfn]

I know the pic can be deceiving, but some other bits that do not move seem to have oil on them, but the cam lobes do not. It could have run off I suppose, but a bolt head in the pick has oil on it. I may be in to heavier oil camp on this one too.

 

[grim 140]

Ok pulled cam oilers blew carb cleaner through them all. Clean no blockage put it together still ticking. Also I want to mention before I took it apart this morning. I started it up and it started ticking from the get go. Instead of warming up then starting to tick. I also am using the 15w 40 oil now. Maybe it doesn’t like it? Because it ticks from the start now. Also I took up on the freeway just to see if it needed a Italian tune up..nope still ticking. I am at a stand still have no idea?
Maybe try the 10w40 molly oil? Thoughts anyone?

 

[Joncf]

Ok pulled cam oilers blew carb cleaner through them all. Clean no blockage put it together still ticking. Also I want to mention before I took it apart this morning. I started it up and it started ticking from the get go. Instead of warming up then starting to tick. I also am using the 15w 40 oil now. Maybe it doesn’t like it? Because it ticks from the start now. Also I took up on the freeway just to see if it needed a Italian tune up..nope still ticking. I am at a stand still have no idea?
Maybe try the 10w40 molly oil? Thoughts anyone?
LS swap? Just kidding ...or am I???

I just remembered, when I first got my car, I used Mobil 1 0W-40 for the first oil change and it actually ticked LESS than when I switched to 10W40. Granted, I’ve yet to replace my plastic oilers though.

 

[gsxr]

I'm still confused about multiple cars with ticking lifters, and good oil tubes. Over a dozen different M119's, I've never had this problem, and haven't even read about it on forums much either. 99.44% of the time, ticking is related to a failed plastic tube.

 

[grim 140]

Well I do have to do timing chain guides here soon! Nothing has shown itself to needing it done yet!
So I was figuring I would take care of that before it gets ugly! Since I’m there I will remove the Cams and check the lifters. Maybe just replace that whole Left bank of lifters? I will try the moly oil first. then If that fails then do the the rails! I will keep you guys informed.

 

[Kyiv]

Try this. Worked for Kent from MercedesSource and for me

 

[grim 140]

I will thanks!

 

[szvook]

That is some f’ing dark oil. So what happens if you’re using your oil to gauge the cleanliness of the engine?

 

[Joncf]

That is some f’ing dark oil. So what happens if you’re using your oil to gauge the cleanliness of the engine?

That’s really not an accurate method to gauge cleanliness of the engine. Engine oil mostly darkens due to heat. If you put new engine oil in a pot and heated it on a stove, it would turn black pretty quickly.

 

[grim 140]

Here's a thought what if I have an exhaust manifold leak?
My firebird had a tick turned out after checking it was a loose bolt or two
on the manifold.
Here is a video through the Left wheel well of the Mercedes. Seems pretty loud there. Should it be?
Maybe the source of the tick?

 

[grim 140]

Here is the video..

 

[TerryA]

That’s a lifter. Sorry

 

[grim 140]

Yup probably!

 

[Kyiv]

Yup probably!

Liqui Molly 10w40 MoS2