Bring a Trailer (BaT) Auctions: Worth Listing Your Car or Not?

[gsxr]

IIRC there were only about 1500 total manual 300E's imported over 2 years (86 and 88 only) and 2 of them are currently on BaH. I would be pretty pissed if I was the seller of either one.

No Reserve: 1986 Mercedes-Benz 300E 5-Speed

Bid for the chance to own a No Reserve: 1986 Mercedes-Benz 300E 5-Speed at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #90,121.

bringatrailer.com

No Reserve: 1988 Mercedes-Benz 300E 5-Speed

Bid for the chance to own a No Reserve: 1988 Mercedes-Benz 300E 5-Speed at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #90,761.

bringatrailer.com

Yeah, what's with the deadbeats?

"This is a re-list after the vehicle was previously sold on BaT in June 2022 and the winning bidder failed to follow through with their commitment to purchase. This was not due to any fault with the vehicle. The winner has been banned from future participation on BaT and their buyer’s fee was not refunded."

 

[LWB250]

Yeah, what's with the deadbeats?

"This is a re-list after the vehicle was previously sold on BaT in June 2022 and the winning bidder failed to follow through with their commitment to purchase. This was not due to any fault with the vehicle. The winner has been banned from future participation on BaT and their buyer’s fee was not refunded."

I suspect since BaT has "opened their doors" to so many auctions now, they're getting more and more of the "eBay" crowd who bid on things then back out. Granted, there's a penalty for it, but when you crank up the volume of auctions you're bound to get more unsavory characters involved, I would think.

Just my $0.02.

Dan

 

[maw1124]

Agreed … and probably a bit that the resale value of some of these cars is falling fast enough that the dealer / buyer / would be flipper realizes by the time delivery occurs that market dynamics have changed. Think musical chairs when the music is stopping. I get the sense that most of what we’ve seen on BaT buy side in the last couple years is profit speculation more than anything else.

But the broker (BaT) is still getting paid.

maw

 

[ace10]

It's $3-4K+ to ship a car across the country these days.
Justifying that on a $10K car purchase seems nearly impossible.

 

[ace10]

Speaking of impossible to justify... let's look at this fine beast that came up today:

No Reserve: 10k-Mile 1998 Toyota Corolla VE 5-Speed

Bid for the chance to own a No Reserve: 10k-Mile 1998 Toyota Corolla VE 5-Speed at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #90,814.

bringatrailer.com

Yes, that's a ZERO OPTION Toyota econobox right there. Doesn't even have A/C.
I'm probably one of the biggest Toyota fans out there, but c'mon... this was a turd 25 years ago and continues to be a turd today.


(BTW, Only $4500 to ship to my zip, according to the BaH quote machine for enclosed hauling)

 

[gsxr]

Speaking of impossible to justify... let's look at this fine beast that came up today:

No Reserve: 10k-Mile 1998 Toyota Corolla VE 5-Speed

Bid for the chance to own a No Reserve: 10k-Mile 1998 Toyota Corolla VE 5-Speed at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #90,814.

bringatrailer.com

Yes, that's a ZERO OPTION Toyota econobox right there. Doesn't even have A/C.
I'm probably one of the biggest Toyota fans out there, but c'mon... this was a turd 25 years ago and continues to be a turd today.

Once again, BaHaT listing odometers for sale that come with a free car.

 

[maw1124]

Once again, BaHaT listing odometers for sale that come with a free car.

And speculators gonna speculate… in some corner of the internet there’s an affinity group for these cars, who some dealer thinks they’re gonna sell this to for triple their money.

maw

 

[ace10]

1997 Toyota Land Cruiser FZJ80

Bid for the chance to own a 1997 Toyota Land Cruiser FZJ80 at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #90,374.

bringatrailer.com

I'm not even talking about his cost basis or motivation. But yes, he WAAAAAY overpaid for the truck. It's got upper hatch rust and he's in for mid $30's. It's a low to mid $20's rig outside of BaH.

Reality crushes the BaH bubble:

This truck was bid to $24K, RNM.
Not even the fanbois could stir up above-market bids.

 

[maw1124]

Reality crushes the BaH bubble:

This truck was bid to $24K, RNM.
Not even the fanbois could stir up above-market bids.

Ouch… that’s gonna leave a mark.

maw

 

[gsxr]

I don't follow toy Yodas much, but the guy paid ~$32k for it two months ago... mumbles something about his kids attached to the old beater... and RNM's at $24k. Huh.

 

[LWB250]

I don't follow toy Yodas much, but the guy paid ~$32k for it two months ago... mumbles something about his kids attached to the old beater... and RNM's at $24k. Huh.

View attachment 156884

The question begs, though - will it come back?



Dan

 

[gsxr]

The question begs, though - will it come back?

Prolly not on BaHaT. They typically only re-list for a new owner, not (never?) for RNM. Might see it on C&B, Hagerty, or Hemmings though. Maybe Barn Finds.

 

[LWB250]

Prolly not on BaHaT. They typically only re-list for a new owner, not (never?) for RNM. Might see it on C&B, Hagerty, or Hemmings though. Maybe Barn Finds.

Barn Finds. That's one I've never understood. They're horribly inconsistent about their "listings", many of which aren't "barn finds".

Dan

 

[Harv]

Hagerty auctions went live today.

Classic Cars Auctions / Classifieds | Hagerty Marketplace

Search all classic and collector cars for sale on Hagerty Marketplace. See auctions near you and the best car classifieds today!

www.hagerty.com

I tried to register two weeks ago, but then they wanted a scan of my state-issued ID, and I noped-the-hell-outta there. There's 0.00% chance I would ever agree to that.

Is having an insurance company in the business of also selling cars and quoting values not a giant conflict of interest? Their YouTube channel investment wasn't enough?

 

[gerryvz]

Money is disappearing out of the market among non-Uber-wealthy folks (i.e. the usual 500EBoard mini-Buffett investors and centi-millionaires are not affected) faster than helium leaks out of a birthday balloon.

Happening with cars and with 7-8%+ & climbing boat-loan interest rates, happening rapidly with new and used boats as well.

Don’t see this Cruiser going for much more unless it is expertly marketed.

Hang on and fasten your seatbelts. It’s going to hit the E500E market as well. If you’ve purchased in the past 3-5 years you may be underwater for a bit…..

 

[maw1124]

It's strange right now ... money flows in and out and cash allocations move up and down, but the number of RNM auctions is only going one way ... and housing prices are going the other way, while rental rates remain unaffected (at least for now).



maw

 

[ace10]

Just a hair over $9K with the vig.

No Reserve: 10k-Mile 1998 Toyota Corolla VE 5-Speed

Bid for the chance to own a No Reserve: 10k-Mile 1998 Toyota Corolla VE 5-Speed at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #90,814.

bringatrailer.com

 

[Gatorblue92]

Just a hair over $9K with the vig.

No Reserve: 10k-Mile 1998 Toyota Corolla VE 5-Speed

Bid for the chance to own a No Reserve: 10k-Mile 1998 Toyota Corolla VE 5-Speed at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #90,814.

bringatrailer.com

 

[bclifton]

I had a pretty good experience with BaT earlier this year. Not a W124 - but wanted to share

I'm just too into the older Mercedes-Benz - after getting my 1994 SL320 and working through a few projects I took some good photos, fixed everything wrong on my CL63, and sold it:

24k-Mile 2009 Mercedes-Benz CL63 AMG

Bid for the chance to own a 24k-Mile 2009 Mercedes-Benz CL63 AMG at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #76,497.

bringatrailer.com

I ended up getting $40k, which is the reserve that BaT set. The auction only got up to $38.5k - but BaT made up the difference actually. Hearst Publishing (must be who owns them) wrote me a check for the difference

In 2021 I sold a 1993 300E 2.8 that I fixed up too and got a decent chunk of change ($4.5k). After my costs and such I only made like $100 on that "flip" Probably should have just kept the car after getting it that far. But it was a lot of fun and I learned a ton

No Reserve: 1993 Mercedes-Benz 300E 2.8

Bid for the chance to own a No Reserve: 1993 Mercedes-Benz 300E 2.8 at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #44,896.

bringatrailer.com

 

[ace10]

I had a pretty good experience with BaT earlier this year. Not a W124 - but wanted to share

I'm just too into the older Mercedes-Benz - after getting my 1994 SL320 and working through a few projects I took some good photos, fixed everything wrong on my CL63, and sold it:

24k-Mile 2009 Mercedes-Benz CL63 AMG

Bid for the chance to own a 24k-Mile 2009 Mercedes-Benz CL63 AMG at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #76,497.

bringatrailer.com

I ended up getting $40k, which is the reserve that BaT set. The auction only got up to $38.5k - but BaT made up the difference actually. Hearst Publishing (must be who owns them) wrote me a check for the difference

Interesting decision on their part:
(a) RNM at $38,5 and they only earn your listing fee.
Or (b) boost the bid to $40K and make a touch over $500.

 

[ace10]

How to loose nearly 50% of your money on a car in under a year:

Paid $27K plus vig plus taxes plus transport. Call it $32K, all in.

No Reserve: 2000 Toyota 4Runner 4WD 5-Speed

Bid for the chance to own a No Reserve: 2000 Toyota 4Runner 4WD 5-Speed at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #63,775.

bringatrailer.com

Sold for $17,5 eleven months later.

No Reserve: 2000 Toyota 4Runner 4WD 5-Speed

Bid for the chance to own a No Reserve: 2000 Toyota 4Runner 4WD 5-Speed at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #92,672.

bringatrailer.com

 

[maw1124]

This is what we've been seeing... Used vehicle demand and prices continue to decline from record highs

If you view the 16% as an average, you can conceive of some models declining 32% and some not declining at all.

Separately, I'm seeing rumblings of Carvana going under. If that inventory hits the market, prices will only decline more (although probably not the older models we care about).

maw

 

[ace10]

Write downs or are they actually burning up some inventory?

 

[maw1124]

Write downs or are they actually burning up some inventory?

IDK as I didn't dig into the stories. That chart is likely an unknown mix of both.

What you've posted is likely the inventory valuation, a Balance Sheet number. At issue are the Sales and Cash Flow numbers; whether they can afford that (declining) inventory value (financed at) increasing rates. At some point, sales slow to nothing, while (for them) and because (for their customers) financing rates are too high.

Those problems would converge to create the bankruptcy event for the company. I'm fairly sure that's how the analysis goes, though I haven't read the articles.

They've built a fairly capital intensive business (Inventory/Warehousing/Maintenance + Tech), which subjects them to interest rate risk (probably borrowed money), while at the same time their customer base is also subject to interest rate risk. So rising rates is a "double whammy" for their business model.

maw

 

[gsxr]

There's a C43 on BaHaT right now (link) and an observant peanut gallerist noted the car sold last August (2021) on MBM (link). But 15 months later, the same dealer is selling the same car with ~100 miles added to the odo. Dealer replied with:

"@carlover2376728 Thank you for asking. The winning bidder went dark on us after the end of the auction and unfortunately did not follow through. It has happened here on BaT recently with the PT Cruiser we sold this year and an all too frequent occurrence on FleEBay."

The interesting part is the buyer who allegedly "went dark" seems to be somewhat of a high roller (profile link here) who has purchased a number of six-figure cars on MBM. And if a buyer really does welch, normally the platform bans them. So either there's more to the story, or MBM lets high rollers have a free pass, or both? Odd. Update - see below!






The plot thickens:

Carlover2376728
I got ahold of buyer from mbmarket auction through social media as I found it interesting they went ghost after they bought some bigger cars on site before and after this sale. Their [buyer's] story was the complete opposite from yours [sellers] and stated that you went ghost after they made numerous attempts to pay. Hard not to believe their story considering they have a extensive car collection. I opened the account just to bid on this car as I was a bidder on last auction as well but something is not kosher here. Good luck.

Well. That story makes more sense, but leaves different questions: If the seller welched, was the buyer refunded his 4.5% fee? And why was the selling dealer not banned, they listed other vehicles after this, most recent was April 2022 (link)?

 

[gerryvz]

Based on very recent track record, it does seem to be better than Cars & Bids, and perhaps better than MB Market as well.

Some interesting information on Cars & Bids .... and our pal Doug DeMuro...

Hoovy next ?!?

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[maw1124]

Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

"You never want to own a business you can't sell." ~ Unknown

Good timing for DDM. My guess is Hemphill (The MBMarket) will be next.

maw

 

[gsxr]

How do you "combine a YouTube channel" with an existing business? YouTube is a platform, not a business.

"As part of the deal, the Chernin Group (TCG) will take a majority stake in a new company that will combine DeMuro’s YouTube work and Cars & Bids into one venture. It will also place Ro Choy, an expert in business transformation, as CEO."​

YouTuber Doug DeMuro Just Got a $37 Million Cash Infusion for His Car Auction Site

YouTube star Doug DeMuro talks about the deal with the Chernin Group to redline growth of his Cars & Bids online-auction platform.

robbreport.com

Doug DeMuro’s Cars & Bids Platform Scores Major $37 Million Investment

Watch out, Bring a Trailer.

www.thedrive.com

 

[Jlaa]

You never want to own a business you cant sell. ~ Unknown

Good timing for DDM. My guess is Hemphill (The MBMarket) will be next.

Good for Doug DeMuro! I can see this entity competing against Haggerty’s Media/Services/Mktplace organization.

Jason Cammisa vs Doug Demuro?

 

[gsxr]

D&B / TCG / C&B should now absorb / combine / merge with Barn Finds!

MBM is probably too niche-y for them. Maybe as a sub-brand. Send a DM to Ro and see what what he thinks.

 

[maw1124]

D&B / TCG / C&B should now absorb / combine / merge with Barn Finds!

MBM is probably too niche-y for them. Maybe as a sub-brand. Send a DM to Ro and see what what he thinks.

But The MBM gets "them" to the [more "valuable"] demographic which they want to understand and to which they want to market. How do I know? Because I know "them" too well.

maw

 

[gsxr]

But The MBM gets them to the [more valuable] demographic which they want to understand and to which they want to market. How do I know? Because I know them too well.

MBM could definitely use an infrastructure upgrade and UX/UI improvements, that's for sure. I wonder if they'd be willing to sell out and potentially lose control of their baby.

While on one hand I wish I'd have thought of Doug's idea, OTOH, I wouldn't have wanted to work 15 hour days, 8 days a week, 53 weeks per year, for 3+ years...

 

[sheward]

While on one hand I wish Id have thought of Dougs idea, OTOH, I wouldnt have wanted to work 15 hour days, 8 days a week, 53 weeks per year, for 3+ years...

I've said that to myself many times throughout the years and at 66 years it has become a philosophy I'm glad I embraced. One doesn't realize until it's too late.

Of course, if one gets enjoyment day to day from that pursuit they should carry on with gusto.

We've come quite a way since advertising in Car and Truck trader.

 

[maw1124]

I wonder if theyd be willing to sell out and potentially lose control of their baby.

I'm pretty sure the incoming wire transfer would be the baby... but I've been as wrong as I've been sure before, probably even today if I think about it hard enough.

Today just seems like a good time to exit that business IMO.

maw

 

[Harv]

My guess is that Cars & Bids will soon turn into a mess. Anyone who has dealt with PE acquisitions of independently run businesses knows its bad news for anyone who didn't get a large check on signing day.

Bringing in an outside CEO who jumps from ship to ship every few years to run operations is a giant red flag no matter how many ways they try to spin it, especially if his last two ventures were weed delivery and illegal file sharing software. I bet there are middle managers at this moment trying to figure out how to reduce the headcount and run as lean as possible while increasing revenue. Doug will stick around as mandated by his agreement, but as with everyone who sells a majority, slowly fade away. Doug won, but anyone who works for him lost and they don't even know it yet.

 

[gsxr]

Bringing in an outside CEO who jumps from ship to ship every few years to run operations is a giant red flag no matter how many ways they try to spin it, especially if his last two ventures were weed delivery and illegal file sharing software.

You picked up on that too, eh?

I bet there are middle managers at this moment trying to figure out how to reduce the headcount and run as lean as possible while increasing revenue.

I just threw up in my mouth a little. This is Corporate 101 ^^^. Been hearing variations of the above endlessly over the past couple of decades as my workplace "evolves".

 

[gerryvz]

Weve come quite a way since advertising in Car and Truck trader.

Yep, it was not that long ago that Hemmings and your local AutoTrader (and perhaps a niche publication for specific cars like the now defunct SL Market Letter) were the only avenues to find cars.

eBay Motors pioneered a lot of the Internet trade in used/collectable cars, but I haven't tracked it in recent years in terms of effectiveness, since eBay started going downhill and not enforcing its rules against deadbeat bidders and going against sellers. eBay is pretty much dead to me and has been for the past 10 years or so, honestly.

What has been interesting are the thousands of used/vintage/collector car dealers who hang their shingles out there via the Internet. And they come and go all the time. The barriers to entry are pretty low for so-called "collector" car dealers.

In recent years BaT, C&B, and the niche sites like MBM have taken over the market from eBay Motors as far as auctions are concerned, and very effectively I might add.

What I have found most fascinating over the past 5-10 years is the rise of Internet/YouTube automotive "personalities" like Hoovy, Cammisa and DeMuro who are content creators, and they seem to be getting quite wealthy at it. Yet I also consider all of them to honestly be very thin on any sort of technical expertise / knowledge / substance. Sort of the "everyman's" car guys who have ADD when it comes to cars. That kind of "everyman expertise" is not appealing to me, to be honest, but I admit my needs and interests are focused and narrow, not broad and all over the place.

These "Internet experts" seem to be taking the place somewhat of the classic US "buff book" car mags, which have been struggling and struggling for years.

 

[sheward]

I feel the same about the internet automotive "experts" They always seem to me to be rehashing the same old talking points about what could be most any model trying to fill up a 15-minute time slot. I nearly always become bored with lack of any content and turn them off.

 

[Jlaa]

Ive said that to myself many times throughout the years and at 66 years it has become a philosophy Im glad I embraced. One doesnt realize until its too late.
Of course, if one gets enjoyment day to day from that pursuit they should carry on with gusto.
Weve come quite a way since advertising in Car and Truck trader.

Agree 100% @sheward!

I feel the same about the internet automotive experts They always seem to me to be rehashing the same old talking points about what could be most any model trying to fill up a 15-minute time slot. I nearly always become bored with lack of any content and turn them off.

Also agree 100%. Almost every single video on YouTube, I find, is a waste of time and could be compressed 10x to convey the same points..... or written down. Like in a magazine. Or print. Which would be way faster for the reader/viewer to digest. But no, we have to use video now for everything because .... advertising revenue.

 

[LWB250]

Agree 100% @sheward!


Also agree 100%. Almost every single video on YouTube, I find, is a waste of time and could be compressed 10x to convey the same points..... or written down. Like in a magazine. Or print. Which would be way faster for the reader/viewer to digest. But no, we have to use video now for everything because .... advertising revenue.

I have always prided myself in the time and effort I put into writing good documentation for showing how to do something. You've all seen the results of my efforts here and possibly on other forums.

I've seriously considered looking into a YouTube channel to do much the same thing with video for the next project I might undertake, but I can't help but wonder how well it will translate into video, and even if it does, the effort to do so seems like it would be far more as far as time and production effort to do right than it would be worth. I used to do video production as a side gig, so I've got the stuff and knowledge to do it and do it right.

The few of these "content creators" I've watched are just that - thin. That being said, there is value in using video as the medium as many of us are visual learners, with print just not "doing" it for us.

>pondering<

Dan

 

[Harv]

Looks like Craigs&List is already smoking.

Cliff notes: YouTuber gets a super early allocation for a new Z06. Realizing he is in over his head on his new McMansion, he gets contacted by them to run an endorsement deal and sell the car. However, the car isn't titled in his name and still on the MSO and GM is going to void the warranty since he is flipping it under six months. What a legal disaster.

2023 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Coupe - The Stradman's Z06, 670-hp LT6 V8, Z07 Performance Package, Highly Equipped

This 2023 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Coupe is for sale on Cars & Bids! Auction ends February 14 2023.

carsandbids.com

 

[duuder]

Wonder if he's selling it early just for content as it wont hit reserve b/c as per his statement, he could wait 6 months (3 more months) for that flip/warranty to expire

Edit: once he has the content, he'll have potential buyers after and a clear understanding of the warranty

 

[gsxr]

Cliff notes: YouTuber gets a super early allocation for a new Z06. Realizing he is in over his head on his new McMansion, he gets contacted by them to run an endorsement deal and sell the car. However, the car isnt titled in his name and still on the MSO and GM is going to void the warranty since he is flipping it under six months. What a legal disaster.

2023 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Coupe - The Stradman's Z06, 670-hp LT6 V8, Z07 Performance Package, Highly Equipped

This 2023 Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Coupe is for sale on Cars & Bids! Auction ends February 14 2023.

carsandbids.com

This ends in ~1.5 hours, is bid over $200k (!?), and has turned into a flag-fest.

UPDATE: Sold for $218k... and the seller had supposedly turned down offers of $270k+ recently. Like, wooops?

 

[duuder]

At least you can read the flagged messages, it's pretty funny

 

[Harv]

UPDATE: Sold for $218k... and the seller had supposedly turned down offers of $270k+ recently. Like, wooops?

Yikes. I hope he got paid $50,000 for his ad in the video. What a disaster. Less than a week after the "investment" and that place is turning into a circus.

 

[Gatorblue92]

I guess you've made it when the WSJ does a piece on your business.

How One Guy’s Car Blog Became a $1 Billion Marketplace

It’s a place for obsessives to buy, sell and geek out over classic cars. The company pops open its hood after 100,000 auctions to explain why.

www.wsj.com

Moderator edit - Paywall bypass: Bring a Trailer’s Randy Nonnenberg Built a $1 Billion Car Auction Pow…

 

[maw1124]

I guess youve made it when the WSJ does a piece on your business.

And a thoughtful, insightful piece at that.

maw

 

[gerryvz]

And a thoughtful, insightful piece at that.

maw

As a longtime subscriber to the print edition of the WSJ, I would expect no less. One of the only mainstream papers out there with a REAL newsgathering operation that is not politically slanted -- particularly when compared to the New York Times and Washington Post.

Though their separately managed op/ed pages are right of center, but not radically so.

Going outside at 6AM every morning six days a week to get my WSJ is a daily ritual, and usually I complete the crossword puzzle before 7 AM before I dig into the daily forum administration tasks.



(note flower bolts next to keyboard, LOL)

 

[maw1124]

As a longtime subscriber to the print edition of the WSJ, I would expect no less...
Though their separately managed op/ed pages are right of center, but not radically so.

I started reading WSJ 30 years ago in undergrad as a BSchool requirement. As they moved right and more news sources became available, I don't use them anymore. CNBC, Reuters and several others have filled the business news void. I don't need opinions, as a general rule. The internet has too many of those anymore.

But this article went deeper than the "they started a blog, it blew up, they got rich, look at them" I expected to read, although admittedly not much deeper as there isn't much more there. Capping the buyer fee at $5k while others are steadily being greedy was a smart strategy choice on his part.

maw

 

[Jlaa]

As a longtime subscriber to the print edition of the WSJ, I would expect no less. One of the only mainstream papers out there with a REAL newsgathering operation that is not politically slanted -- particularly when compared to the New York Times and Washington Post.

Though their separately managed op/ed pages are right of center, but not radically so.

I started reading WSJ 30 years ago in undergrad as a BSchool requirement. As they moved right and more news sources became available, I dont use them anymore. CNBC, Reuters and several others have filled the business news void. I dont need opinions, as a general rule. The internet has too many of those anymore.

Fascinating to hear your different viewpoints on this.

• I listen to WSJ's podcast in the car every morning. While I don't get their print newspaper, I do enjoy reading the WSJ on my screens.
• I read Reuters, but Reuters of course doesn't go one step further which WSJ sometimes does.
• I ignore all OPINION or all ANALYSIS pieces from any publication.
• I used to enjoy the New York Times and got their daily news mail. Now I hate the NYT because it so often pushing an increasingly more and more extreme agenda. And I'm saying this as a guy who is not a fan of our current president, nor a fan of our previous president.

(note flower bolts next to keyboard, LOL)

Dang look at all that treasure!!!!!