Electric car impact on fuel availabilty and pricing in future(?)

[maw1124]

The first thing you have to understand to process this issue correctly is that it’s not an either / or, all or nothing proposition. We will have both EVs and gas powered vehicles for the foreseeable future. Once you get comfortable with that, the resistance drops, the arguments go away, and progress can accelerate. This is basic change management 101, and yea I’m fully aware most people don’t cope well with change.

A lot of these arguments are like arguing against airplanes because they don’t travel to the moon, or against railways because they don’t go overseas.

maw

 

[gsxr]

I get that EV's aren't for everyone and that for some percentage of people, they will never be viable or even desired. And for those folks, gas and diesel cars will be available.

Glen, that's the problem... some governments are trying to prevent what you stated above. Banning combustion engines makes a lot of people cranky.

I think many people are actually open to EVs. It much of the resistance comes from the government increasingly mandating them and trying to shove them down peoples’ throats. People don’t take kindly to that and will resist that.

Yup. This: ^^^

We have to think of the ENTIRE population, not just folks who live in or near large population centers. I don’t think enough people take that into consideration.

And this too. ^^^

 

[gerryvz]

The first thing you have to understand to process this issue correctly is that it’s not an either / or, all or nothing proposition. We will have both EVs and gas powered vehicles for the foreseeable future. Once you get comfortable with that, the resistance drops, the arguments go away, and progress can accelerate.

Certain states have mandated 100% EV sales by a certain date. The first few states are already backing off of this. Nobody wants to be TOLD what they have to buy, especially when there are, as you say, alternatives out there.

The bottom line for me, is that the more any government mandates that I MUST buy a new EV, the longer and the more I'm going to run my 11 MPG G-wagen and 13 MPG 560SEC. And given the entire life-cycle of production and energy generation for that EV (which is likely relying on petroleum/natural gas to generate), I WILL STILL BE AHEAD OF THAT EV IN TERMS OF OVERALL ENERGY USE AND GREEN-NESS. This is simply because my vehicles were produced 25 and 30 years ago -- their enviro-debt was paid long ago. Compare keeping an old vehicle on the road, eco-wise, to buying a brand new, energy-and-resource-intensive EV.

People do not understand this. The electricity for the grid doesn't come 100%, or even 20%, from solar or wind. MOST OF IT COMES FROM PETROLEUM OR NATURAL GAS OR COAL PLANTS.

But yes, EVs, hybrids, and ICE vehicles are going to co-exist for many decades to come. There will just be more EVs concentrated in certain areas, and more ICEs and other types concentrated in other areas. And of course, these types of policies will continue to push people out of these expensive coastal states, and southward.

I actually agree with the @Jlaa on this -- if you want to go green, a hybrid ICE/electric vehicle is probably the best way to go. You get some serious efficiency increase, and you can go EV only for a certain amount of range (the typical @Glen urban/suburban need). But yet you have an ICE engine if you need more range or your battery is dead from too much urban/suburban driving.

 

[ace10]

Here's your short trip driving scenario, but in a northern climate. Posted this AM on the etron forum.

Frigid weather running

www.e-tronforum.com

Small SUV EV. Cold temps and they dared to use HVAC. In Canada. The result? Range absolutely obliterated.
This is real world for people who don't live in the tropics.

The guy reports consumption rate of 2.6km per kwh. That's 1.2 miles per kwh. The battery is 82kw, so with an 80% charge that's 66kw usable... not even 80 miles of range. EPA reports range @ 100% should be 265 miles. But charging to 100% kills battery life.

If you live where's it an ideal climate for EVs, then go for it. But 70% of American live where it snows.

 

[Jlaa]

I still say that for the average consumer, an EV makes a great deal of sense. And not because it saves money, it’s because it’s just more convenient and hassle free for daily commuting and errands.

I think a Hybrid car (not a straight EV) - with both internal combustion engine and battery pack - makes sense for most people. It is the most convenient option with no need to be tethered to any charging facility at home or on the road, and it has serious efficiency gains.

I actually agree with the @Jlaa on this -- if you want to go green, a hybrid ICE/electric vehicle is probably the best way to go. You get some serious efficiency increase, and you can go EV only for a certain amount of range (the typical @Glen urban/suburban need). But yet you have an ICE engine if you need more range or your battery is dead from too much urban/suburban driving.

Yes. I just drove our Toyota hybrid CUV on a 1200-mile roundtrip down to Thermal, CA (from Northern California) and it got 42 mpg.... meanwhile I still use it every day for around-town driving and get mid-30s (lots of climbing hills). This from a car that cost me $29K new in 2021 and has AWD. It was a great value and is much more economical than any new EV, esp as one takes purchase price into account.

As well, the Toyota hybrid CUV effectively gets 2x the mileage my our 2002 MB E320 around town as well..... the hybrid is a superstar in efficiency (but not nearly as satisfying to drive).

Here's your short trip driving scenario, but in a northern climate. Posted this AM on the etron forum.

Frigid weather running

www.e-tronforum.com

Small SUV EV. Cold temps and they dared to use HVAC. In Canada. The result? Range absolutely obliterated.
This is real world for people who don't live in the tropics.

Yikes! I have an anecdote --- I had someone recently move into a place that I own ---- "coastal elite land." They moved from Los Angeles to SF ... both bastions of coastal elite populations with plenty of infrastructure. The person has a Tesla. They moved into my place because it was really really really really difficult for them to find a 2bed/2bath place with 240V in the garage @ 40 amps or more (let alone have a garage) in the middle of San Francisco....... and there is no public charging station within walking distance right off the cable car line! So even in coastal-elite land, charging is a challenge once you leave suburbia get into the dense city.

 

[maw1124]

Certain states have mandated 100% EV sales by a certain date. The first few states are already backing off of this. Nobody wants to be TOLD what they have to buy, especially when there are, as you say, alternatives out there.

But yes, EVs, hybrids, and ICE vehicles are going to co-exist for many decades to come. There will just be more EVs concentrated in certain areas, and more ICEs and other types concentrated in other areas. And of course, these types of policies will continue to push people out of these expensive coastal states, and southward.

I actually agree with the @Jlaa on this -- if you want to go green, a hybrid ICE/electric vehicle is probably the best way to go. You get some serious efficiency increase, and you can go EV only for a certain amount of range (the typical @Glen urban/suburban need). But yet you have an ICE engine if you need more range or your battery is dead from too much urban/suburban driving.

I guess I don't get triggered over "laws and government mandates" because they change as quickly as they're created. Humans make rules like humans make mistakes. And then the rules change. So that part of the equation I completely ignore. Once you get past that, the inevitable and sensible solution becomes clear. You have transportation needs on a spectrum, and the whole spectrum will be available as the use cases dictate (subject to economics at the local, country and continental levels).

I saw this as a conversation about cars and car tech, not government policies and politics. I'm not excited about politics one way or another -- opinions are like assholes; everybody's got one.

maw

 

[ace10]

In the category of strange coincidences... my wife was driving her etron GT to work this AM and got rear ended, shoving her into the car in front. No injuries. Roll back tow truck shows up and he cannot get the car onto the truck (too long and too low), Police made my wife drive the car away. Despite significant front and rear damage.
If this is a total loss, which it very well could be, it will be a massive finance hit. All due to the wildly-unstable EV market, I stand to lose 40-50% on this car after 18 months and 18K miles. All depends on whether the battery is still 100% intact. The range dropped dramatically after the accident, so there could be a leak. I've got the car parked out in the field. NFW is that thing coming inside a structure.

If this was a gasoline-powered, steel-bodied luxury auto, then there's zero chance of a total loss, either.

I. Fucking. Hate. EVs.

 

[daantjie]

I would be able to get on the EV train if the grid was fully nuclear. As long as we dig coal out of the ground and burn it to make energy the "greenness" of EV's is all bullshit. I simply cannot understand the overall aversion to nuclear power, especially in North America. It's like saying aircraft are dangerous because they very, very, very occasionally crash...

 

[Glen]

I will concede that at the moment, hybrids may be the easiest choice for most people. My only issue is that you still have all the maintenance of an ICE car which for me doing all the maintenance on my fleet of V8/I6/F6/I4 cars ...well, I prefer my DD to be as maintenance free as possible.

As maw pointed out, we will have all types of vehicles for decades to come and govt mandates do come and go with regularity.

 

[Glen]

For me personally, an EV isn't about saving the planet or saving money. It's really about helping to preserve my fleet of ICE cars. Short drives are the absolute worst thing for an ICE car...worse than even not driving them. When I had a 40'ish mile daily commute, I never gave it a thought to take any of my cars because I knew that they would get to and stay at operating temp for long enough to evaporate moisture from the engine and exhaust system. As of 2022, I no longer had a commute so I bought a small city EV to be able to run to the grocery store, fast food, shopping and local restaurants...all within a 5 mile radius of my home. I bought a 2014 Fiat 500e (see what I did there?) with just under 100K miles. My wife and I use it daily for all local travel and charge at home...from 5 to 100 percent takes less than 4 hours on a 220V/50A circuit which I already had for my welders.

What I have found since owning an EV, even with it's very limited range is that it's more convenient than any ICE car. Instead of having to go to the gas station, I just plug it in when I get home. It's always ready to go.

 

[gsxr]

I think a Hybrid car (not a straight EV) - with both internal combustion engine and battery pack - makes sense for most people. It is the most convenient option with no need to be tethered to any charging facility at home or on the road, and it has serious efficiency gains.

+eleventybillion. Hybrids make soooo much sense. I don't get why the governments didn't push them first to ease the transition to full EV.

I guess I don't get triggered over "laws and government mandates" because they change as quickly as they're created. Humans make rules like humans make mistakes. And then the rules change.

All true. However, their mandates are causing vehicle MANUFACTURERS to radically change their plans - i.e., Mercedes ditching V8 engines, and going all-in on EV's. What will they do if/when the gov't EV edicts are walked back and/or sales of their now-all-EV product line sales are awful? Uh-oh.

 

[sheward]

I think most folks here understand this electric issue fairly well. It's a fact we will need a mix of energies going forward. The real problem for me is the intentional misinformation (lies) we are given about the subject at all levels. That's the point of the report. Something as important as this topic requires complete authenticity and scrutiny and all we have is the complete opposite.
I'm for EVs as a choice. Hybrids make more sense to me. I'll never own either because as mentioned I already own all my cars and it's much cheaper and environmentally friendly to maintain them. I'm not for any mandates that I use one or am forced through subsidies of any sort to pay for others to use one. Gerrys thoughts sum it up well. Let the market decide. That will promote conservation which is the low hanging fruit.

I don't want to subsidize a lie. I personally have changed my driving habits and just drive less.

 

[ace10]

These types of threads are created all day long on EV forum:

Just a few hours ago, a Bostonian this time with the big Q8 etron. After only a month wants to return the car due to range.

Audi Q8 etron battery/ performance issues

www.e-tronforum.com

People are simply not ready to deal with the realities of EVs.

 

[ace10]

In Virginia, PHEVs are no longer eligible for HOV plates. Plates which are only useful on a limited list of HOV roads.
That is the only reason we purchased and EV to replace our old PHEV.
A PHEV that was out of service for six of the first twelve months due to charging port/cable issues. And the final nine months of ownership (8 years in total) waiting on a replacement battery.

 

[gerryvz]

I guess I don't get triggered over "laws and government mandates" because they change as quickly as they're created. Humans make rules like humans make mistakes. And then the rules change. So that part of the equation I completely ignore. Once you get past that, the inevitable and sensible solution becomes clear. You have transportation needs on a spectrum, and the whole spectrum will be available as the use cases dictate (subject to economics at the local, country and continental levels).

I saw this as a conversation about cars and car tech, not government policies and politics. I'm not excited about politics one way or another -- opinions are like assholes; everybody's got one.

maw

You may not get triggered over goverment mandates, but a whole hell of a lot of people in this country do -- particularly when a "one size fits all" policy doesn't make much logical (not to mention financial, for most people) sense. I'm not speaking for myself, or probably for most people on this forum - I'm speaking for the forgotten yokels people in "flyover" country.

Unfortunately, any conversation relating to EVs and related tech, is inevitably and inextricably linked with a political/government element. There is no way to separate them -- and given related new mandates and tax policies rolling out, it will get ever-harder to do this.

EDIT: As long as the political discussion doesn't devolve into a discussion of this president vs. that president and their policies, and insults about this guy or the other guy (or their cabinets), and remains directly related to cars/transportation policy, there is no problem with having the discussion here.

 

[gsxr]

I would be able to get on the EV train if the grid was fully nuclear. As long as we dig coal out of the ground and burn it to make energy the "greenness" of EV's is all bullshit. I simply cannot understand the overall aversion to nuclear power, especially in North America.

This is a really interesting topic. People don't understand how safe current reactor designs are. They often think Three Mile or Chernobyl but those were far-out corner cases, and the Chernobyl design was so bad/dangerous it wasn't even allowed in USA! Couple paranoia with a healthy dose of misinformation and NIMBY and you get illogical, irrational aversion to nuclear. *sigh*

I will concede that at the moment, hybrids may be the easiest choice for most people. My only issue is that you still have all the maintenance of an ICE car which for me doing all the maintenance on my fleet of V8/I6/F6/I4 cars ...well, I prefer my DD to be as maintenance free as possible.

As maw pointed out, we will have all types of vehicles for decades to come and govt mandates do come and go with regularity.

Problem is, the gov't mandates have SERIOUS impacts on what vehicles will be manufactured and sold. You can't just say "oh, the gov't will eventually realize their mistake and change the laws"... that won't help the manufacturers who may have gone out of business due to the stupid law.

What I have found since owning an EV, even with it's very limited range is that it's more convenient than any ICE car. Instead of having to go to the gas station, I just plug it in when I get home. It's always ready to go.

I understand this, and it definitely makes a lot of sense for the urban environment with at-home charging available. That said, I'd be really leery about parking/charging an EV in a garage attached to my house. There's been just enough reports of fires to make me nervous. You don't worry about your ICE car kerploding when parked, but that's not an unrealistic scenario with EV's and high-current power cabled from your home to car. I'd want a detached all-metal garage, until the mfr's figure out how to prevent charging car-B-ques.

 

[Jlaa]

I will concede that at the moment, hybrids may be the easiest choice for most people. My only issue is that you still have all the maintenance of an ICE car which for me doing all the maintenance on my fleet of V8/I6/F6/I4 cars ...well, I prefer my DD to be as maintenance free as possible.

This is why if you buy a Hybrid, you buy a Toyota. Maintenance is minimal.

 

[ace10]

...
I understand this, and it definitely makes a lot of sense for the urban environment with at-home charging available. That said, I'd be really leery about parking/charging an EV in a garage attached to my house. There's been just enough reports of fires to make me nervous. You don't worry about your ICE car kerploding when parked, but that's not an unrealistic scenario with EV's and high-current power cabled from your home to car. I'd want a detached all-metal garage, until the mfr's figure out how to prevent charging car-B-ques.

All Audi and Porsche EVs are under a recall for serious safety hazard related to the EVSE.

Audi and Porsche EV and PHEV Portable Charging Cables Recalled - Consumer Reports

Audi and Porsche are recalling electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) that came with a portable charger that could damage both the charging cable and the outlet it’s plugged into.

www.consumerreports.org

No solution until mid 2024 at the earliest. In the meantime, don't use the equipment that was provided with the vehicle.

 

[maw1124]

I simply cannot understand the overall aversion to nuclear power, especially in North America...

This is actually an aversion to bad people who might harness the nuclear power for other reasons or otherwise irresponsibly steward it. It's the "don't fuck this up" aversion.

For me personally, an EV isn't about saving the planet or saving money. It's really about helping to preserve my fleet of ICE cars. Short drives are the absolute worst thing for an ICE car...worse than even not driving them.

^^^ That part, FTW. I only think about an EV as a simple beater replacement.

All true. However, their mandates are causing vehicle MANUFACTURERS to radically change their plans - i.e., Mercedes ditching V8 engines, and going all-in on EV's. What will they do if/when the gov't EV edicts are walked back and/or sales of their now-all-EV product line sales are awful? Uh-oh.

I feel like I read somewhere that MB is bringing BACK a V8... a prime example of "the market" being more flexible than the legislature.

I think most folks here understand this electric issue fairly well. It's a fact we will need a mix of energies going forward. The real problem for me is the intentional misinformation (lies) we are given about the subject at all levels... I'm for EVs as a choice. Hybrids make more sense to me. I'll never own either ... I personally have changed my driving habits and just drive less.

Exactly. I save gas with a short commute. Everyone else can do what works for them, and I'm happy that EV's are now included in the choice matrix. I just hope people don't refuse to stop smoking just because the insurance company mandated it. I mean, smartly do what actually works, not defiance for the sake of defiance.

I'm speaking for the forgotten yokels people in "flyover" country.

Unfortunately, any conversation relating to EVs and related tech, is inevitably and inextricably linked with a political/government element.

But a lot of us are in this forum specifically because those folks aren't here. Yes and sadly, the issues are inextricably linked.

maw

 

[maw1124]

All Audi and Porsche EVs are under a recall for serious safety hazard related to the EVSE.

Audi and Porsche EV and PHEV Portable Charging Cables Recalled - Consumer Reports

Audi and Porsche are recalling electric vehicles and plug-in hybrids (PHEVs) that came with a portable charger that could damage both the charging cable and the outlet it’s plugged into.

www.consumerreports.org

No solution until mid 2024 at the earliest. In the meantime, don't use the equipment that was provided with the vehicle.

Thanks for this. Wife may take a job with Audi and of course a car is included. The etron briefly crossed my mind as a free beater replacement, but she thinks that means my S55 goes outside. She's out of her Fn mind. Her leased E450 or this free shit will be outside.

maw

 

[ace10]

VAG, in all their wisdom, took the decision to use a 10AWG pigtail on a 40Amp EVSE. It needs to be at least 8AWG and really should be 6AWG.

And it's not just legacy car companies that are struggling mightily. Look at Rivian. Good god do they have serious problems: Airbags, steering linkages, seat belts, hvac, unintended acceleration.

 

[ace10]

This is a big deal:

https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/hertz-sell-about-20000-evs-us-fleet-2024-01-11/#:~:text=Jan%2011%20(Reuters)%20%2D%20Rental,opt%20for%20gas%2Dpowered%20vehicles.

Car rental firm Hertz to sell 20,000 EVs for gas-powered vehicles​

Reuters​

January 11, 20249:56 AM EST​

​

(Reuters) -Rental firm Hertz Global Holdings ( HTZ ) said on Thursday it would sell about 20,000 electric vehicles from its U.S. fleet due to higher expenses related to collision and damage, and will opt for gas-powered vehicles.​

​

Shares of the company, which operates vehicles from Tesla Inc and Swedish EV maker Polestar among others, fell about 3% at market open.​

​

Hertz had said it would order 100,000 Teslas by the end of 2022 and followed that with a decision to buy up to 65,000 units over five years from Polestar.​

​

"Expenses related to collision and damage, primarily associated with EVs, remained high in the quarter...," Hertz said in a regulatory filing on Thursday.​

​

The company had previously set a target for 25% of its fleet to be electric by the end of 2024.​

​

Hertz expects about $245 million of incremental depreciation expenses from the proposed sale in the fourth quarter of 2023 and warned of a hit to adjusted corporate core profit for the period.​

​

The company said it would continue to focus on improving profitability for the remainder of its EV fleet.​

​

Hertz's used car website lists more than 700 EVs on sale including BMW's i3, Chevrolet's Bolt and Tesla's Model 3 and Model Y SUVs.​

 

[gsxr]

VAG, in all their wisdom, took the decision to use a 10AWG pigtail on a 40Amp EVSE. It needs to be at least 8AWG and really should be 6AWG.

As an elektrishun... 40A over 10AWG is cray-cray, even over a few inches where on paper it won't get hot enough to melt the high-temp insulation. Talk about idiocy, if those numbers are accurate. I agree - 8AWG minimum for a continuous 40A (or, near-40A) load.

 

[Glen]

I understand this, and it definitely makes a lot of sense for the urban environment with at-home charging available. That said, I'd be really leery about parking/charging an EV in a garage attached to my house. There's been just enough reports of fires to make me nervous. You don't worry about your ICE car kerploding when parked, but that's not an unrealistic scenario with EV's and high-current power cabled from your home to car. I'd want a detached all-metal garage, until the mfr's figure out how to prevent charging car-B-ques.

Well, with my limited garage space, the Fiat is only parked outside on the driveway so no worries

 

[ace10]

As an elektrishun... 40A over 10AWG is cray-cray, even over a few inches where on paper it won't get hot enough to melt the high-temp insulation. Talk about idiocy, if those numbers are accurate. I agree - 8AWG minimum for a continuous 40A (or, near-40A) load.

So not only do they need to upgrade the pigtail, they will also need to put either a thermal monitor or a break of some sort in-line, as there is nothing presently.

 

[bclifton]

I don't think anyone here "wants" to get into politics, but as shared above it's inevitable as various governments establish mandates for the manufacturers. It's great to want to improve things - but it (the push for manufacturers to go EV) feels like an overreach to me.

On the other hand, there are areas where the government should do more (which feels really weird saying that). As much as people (including myself) whine about things, America really is (in general) an amazing place to be a consumer. Agencies like the FTC try to keep companies honest and help establish consumer rights and protections. People will gang together and establish class action law suits, and try to get corrective action when someone drops the ball (ex: airbag recalls). But one area in particular that's lacking might be manufacturer specific.

Tesla doesn't like people working on its cars and I'm not aware of them having a traditional parts chain like other manufacturers. There are some YouTube channels like Rich Rebuilds that do these repairs anyways - and those people are fighting for "Right to Repair", which is very cool. There are some powers that companies like Tesla wield that are just straight up evil, in my opinion. If they find out you are trying to do these repairs yourself or if you break a terms of service, you can essentially have the VIN blacklisted and you'll never be able to use their charging infrastructure. What other alternative is there, at that point? Having a central authority hanging a carrot over your head is a horrible consumer proposition.

Consumers have already started to fight back against things like BMW who floated the idea of a "pay a monthly fee to use heated seats". Tesla has this for autopilot - I believe they bundle it with access to their super charger infrastructure (pay a monthly or yearly fee, on top of the vehicle purchase). Back to government - it's great to try to improve standards, but the protection for consumer rights are even more important IMO.

 

[dionphaneuf]

I'm excited to see what happens to the commercial vehicle space (like class 8 trucks) as more EVs become available. A lot of those places run very well characterized/consistent routes/schedules and actually have way more time to charge than people think bc of general logistics stuff (and things like shift schedules and mandated 30min breaks every 8 hours). Plus they are businesses so just do whatever makes the most sense for them financially, like 30-40% of their cost is fuel and maintenance which EVs win on. Should be interesting, let the free market decide this one

PHEVs are a great idea in theory but you end up paying for everything twice. I've yet to see one that beats a well designed EV in price (like a Bolt or Model 3). Rav 4 PHEVs are like $40k?

RIght to repair laws are great. I think for super nascent technologies it's fair for companies to protect themselves from untrained or nefarious actors who mess something up and then the companies image is destroyed (if a Tesla that some yokel had messed up an HV battery repair on caught fire in a super charger, do you think the vast majority of the media would tell the full story?). But beyond 3-5 years from technology introduction, you need to be able to crack the seal, the parts need to be direct to consumer, and the manuals need to be available.

 

[Glen]

Probably not happening soon at any usable scale, but here's one possible solution to range anxiety:

 

[sheward]

"We want to get rid of the (myth) of range anxiety."

I'd seen this discussed some years back as well as turning the roads into solar collectors, which seems to have more promise to me on a scaling basis.
If this charging idea is feasible then I would think parking lots would be the place to start.

 

[Glen]

"We want to get rid of the (myth) of range anxiety."

I'd seen this discussed some years back as well as turning the roads into solar collectors, which seems to have more promise to me on a scaling basis.
If this charging idea is feasible then I would think parking lots would be the place to start.

Agreed, parking lots and metered parking spaces, "charge" by the hour

 

[duuder]

The average consumer doesn't have a usable garage. And if they do, unless it's a newer house, they probably don't have 50 or 60 amps of unused juice of their 100 or 200 amp service panel.
Over 30% of Americans live in an MDU.
70% of Americans live where it snows.

Public chargers are slow. And expensive.

Coastal elites believe that EVs are ready for mainstream America. Mainstream America doesn't want them.

Sorry, but no.

This is a lot of people like me, I rent a garage but don't have access to electricity and when lookb at Brooklyn/the Bronx, it's even worst. There designated parking/charging spots in (paid) garages and on the street but they move after they finish charging

 

[ace10]

Simple, yet effective way to extinguish EV car fires.

 

[ace10]

@1:26 the completely torched Jag EV (which should have been "sleeping" since it was connected to a charger) is actually spinning its wheels trying to fight being dragged out of the garage.
How in the fack is that even possible???

These goddamn things are possessed.

 

[LWB250]

@gerryvz,
I hope you visited Hemingway’s home. You being a lot younger than me probably did stop at his favorite bar. Did you see Truman’s Little White House or the Treasure Museum. Those have been our favorite sites in Key West. Our Hotel was the Celebrity Silhouette cruise ship for a day visit on our way to New Orleans for an overnight stop for the Jazz Festival. Since I grew up in NOLA we passed on the festival rented a car and saw the sights dined in great restaurants and visited old friends.

I drove a part of Key West but gave up after a few hours down. We had lunch at a great restaurant and stopped at a few sites. We didn’t make it to Marathon. I wanted to see KoKoMo but found out it didn’t exist except in my favorite Beach Boys tune.We saw the hotel supposedly used in Bogart’s Key Largo.

Anyway Key West is a great place to visit. I’m sure what ever you did there you had a great time.

I know a lot of those places from when I was a kid and we would take day trips from our place on Sanibel. Fly down in the morning, grab a jitney, go to the Turtle Bar, of course, as well as Hemingway's house to see the kitties, fly back to Sanibel before sundown (VFR grass strip, no lights.) Dad was a huge EH fan. Also big into forts, so Martello Towers, Dry Tortugas, you name it, we saw it.

 

[LWB250]

@1:26 the completely torched Jag EV (which should have been "sleeping" since it was connected to a charger) is actually spinning its wheels trying to fight being dragged out of the garage.
How in the fack is that even possible???

These goddamn things are possessed.

I noticed this, too. Weird.

As well as the "processional" of emergency veicles as they tooks the cars to another location. I wonder how much of the charges are going to be paid by the insurance company? There's gonna be a bill, for sure.

Dan

 

[duuder]

Fire department: Hey buddie, let's take this outside

Jaguar: over my dead, charring body - no!

 

[gsxr]

I was trying to figure out if the wheels were turning due to a limited-slip differential. But, yeah, more likely just possessed.

 

[LWB250]

I think a Hybrid car (not a straight EV) - with both internal combustion engine and battery pack - makes sense for most people. It is the most convenient option with no need to be tethered to any charging facility at home or on the road, and it has serious efficiency gains.

Yes. I just drove our Toyota hybrid CUV on a 1200-mile roundtrip down to Thermal, CA (from Northern California) and it got 42 mpg.... meanwhile I still use it every day for around-town driving and get mid-30s (lots of climbing hills). This from a car that cost me $29K new in 2021 and has AWD. It was a great value and is much more economical than any new EV, esp as one takes purchase price into account.

As well, the Toyota hybrid CUV effectively gets 2x the mileage my our 2002 MB E320 around town as well..... the hybrid is a superstar in efficiency (but not nearly as satisfying to drive).

I've driven smaller Ford hybrid sedans as rentals, and I was suitably impressed. While there is no denying that it's still an ICE car, the level of efficiency and economy is significantly higher than a straight ICE-powered car under most circumstances. I have to believe that the wear and tear relatively speaking is lower on a hybrid, so while you still have ICE maintenance items, the intervals are probably much further apart.

I'm with Glen on the short trip stuff, too. I hate having to drive my ML550 for groceries or some other short errand, but if it's any consolation, it gets wound out three days a week on our local tollroad for 18 miles a day...

Dan

 

[LWB250]

"We want to get rid of the (myth) of range anxiety."

I'd seen this discussed some years back as well as turning the roads into solar collectors, which seems to have more promise to me on a scaling basis.
If this charging idea is feasible then I would think parking lots would be the place to start.

There is a traffic signal intersection powered by sidewalk solar cells in Tampa. I drive by it all the time.

Dan

 

[RicardoD]

This is why if you buy a Hybrid, you buy a Toyota. Maintenance is minimal.

@gsxr Then you get the benefit of a battery thermal runaway event (FIRE!) plus the gasoline explosion in the SAME garage.

 

[gsxr]

@gsxr Then you get the benefit of a battery thermal runaway event (FIRE!) plus the gasoline explosion in the SAME garage.

Right! Something for @Jlaa to look forward to!

 

[duuder]

Have you guys read about the new Ram 1500 Ramcharger? It's an ev with a 6cyl ice that acts as a generator. Can tow 14000lbs and has range of about 690 miles.

I did a road trip over the summer and car camped in my prius. I imagine if I can do this in that truck and tow my race car, that would be real fun

 

[gerryvz]

nod to @ace10:

Hertz to Sell 20,000 EVs and Replace with Gas Vehicles - Hagerty Media

Hertz is selling 20,000 EVs and replacing them with ICE cars because they have overestimated demand and repair costs of their current fleet.

www.hagerty.com

Hertz to Sell 20,000 EVs and Replace with Gas Vehicles​

Sajeev Mehta​

11 January 2024

​

​

Hertz has announced a plan to thin its fleet of electric vehicles by 20,000 units and replace them with gasoline-powered vehicles, citing lower than expected demand and higher repair costs. Bloomberg reports they have already began the process of selling their inventory.​

​

Overall EV demand has not met lofty sales expectations, as sales growth was only 1.3% higher from the third to fourth quarter of 2023. In an interview with CNBC, Hertz’s CEO Stephen Scherr said EV rentals are “not at the level of demand that we anticipated.” EVs have also been more expensive to repair than gasoline vehicles in Hertz’s fleet, and Sherr suggested that “efforts to wrestle it down proved to be more challenging.” CNBC also did a credible job explaining the how and why this strategy failed.​

​

​

The video suggests that routine maintenance costs were lower for EVs, but repairing accident damage is twice that of a gasoline vehicle. Tesla vehicles are sometimes associated with uneven parts and service support, and a quick scan of Hertz Car Sales’ website shows that they are currently selling 672 Teslas, 35 Chevrolet Bolts, 3 Kia EV6s, one Nissan Leaf, one BMW i3 from 2018 (!), and none of their Polestar EVs.​

​

What does this mean for you?​

​

More Teslas will be dumped onto the market in the coming months, which may affect already depressed prices. Currently, Hertz’s cheapest Tesla is this black Model 3 with the standard battery. It is fairly priced at $20,125, roughly 57% less than its original asking price of $46,440 back in 2021. The cheapest 2021 Toyota Prius that Hertz is currently selling is $18,300 (with no photos, possibly in worse shape than the Tesla), which is only a 28% loss in value in a similar timeframe.​

​

Because EV production is lowering to match this slower than expected growth, Hertz’s market correction could be the best time for EV-intenders to get into the game before supply fully adjusts to demand. If that’s what you really want.​

 

[sheward]

As a side informative note, I was talking to the son of a family member at Christmas whose company made lead acid batteries. Hazardous work environment I'd never thought much about. His company was bought and retooled to produce Lithium batteries and they kept him and one other to continue work there. He will be required to wear what essentially is a complete Hazmat suit including respirator.

 

[duuder]

Have you guys read about the new Ram 1500 Ramcharger? It's an ev with a 6cyl ice that acts as a generator. Can tow 14000lbs and has range of about 690 miles.

I did a road trip over the summer and car camped in my prius. I imagine if I can do this in that truck and tow my race car, that would be real fun

Here's more info:

https://www.caranddriver.com/ram/1500-ramcharger

 

[gsxr]

Here's more info:

https://www.caranddriver.com/ram/1500-ramcharger

That's the most interesting setup I've seen so far. Assuming the generator can supply more juice than the truck will consume, translating into "unlimited" range as long as you keep gasoline in the tank, this is awesome. Yeah, towing uphill into a headwind is going to deplete the batteries faster - can the engine/generator supply the motors if the batteries are near dead? Inquiring minds want to know!

 

[duuder]

If this works out, can only imagine an aftermarket extended range tank to well, extend range for towing

 

[gsxr]

I'm curious if the cold was related to the charging station outage, or if that was coincidence:

The comments are entertaining too.

 

[sheward]

It's too dangerous to be out in the cold... yes, if you can't depend on your car.

 

[gsxr]

For reference, the temperature in Chicago is around zero, ±10°F or so.

That's cold, for sure, but nothing like the -30 to -35°F lows at our house the past few days, with highs of -9 to -8°F. Those are still air temps, btw... wind chills have been -35 to -55°F (!!). If EV's are struggling around zero, I dunno how they would handle another twenty to thirty degrees colder.

Chicago forecast screenshot below from this link.