R129 SL 72 AMG (M120 7-liter engine specs)

[Markus-MD]

But every Merc Worker with VDOC Rights can make additionel or change the DATAcard.My 500e became new Keys and this was marked in the datacard .i have seen the change that my Friend do .Was an Work from max 10 min.this is what i not understand .you make other Engine and this and this and amg had not time to change the Datacards?

 

[195910]

But every Merc Worker with VDOC Rights can make additionel or change the DATAcard.My 500e became new Keys and this was marked in the datacard .i have seen the change that my Friend do .Was an Work from max 10 min.this is what i not understand .you make other Engine and this and this and amg had not time to change the Datacards?

Exactly the point. I have seen many less significant alteration/options stated in vedoc, such as Special order colors, equipment for official cars (sirens,fax,intercom..), tourist delivery package. etc.

A 7.3L engine with ECUs, exhaust, suspension, wheels, transmission upgrade and instrument cluster should show up somewhere!

Mechatronik has 2 SL73s in the inventory, maybe its worth giving them a call.

 

[Rouven036]

It ain't that easy... You need a training and provide a clean sheet police report to do higher level stuff as doing stuff with keys, files etc.
Every authorized worker has access to vedoc but rights for alterations are set in levels and need individual authorization through the mb organisation.
And of course it's important to track and trace orders of new keys etc. So it's clearly documented what was done when and by WHO!
MB is quite good at that stuff.
Also always the full change history is available and original states can always be displayed.

The done changes or added notes on a car are certainly fully legit to ensure correct parts identification etc. As this will automatically pop up in the associated groups in the parts catalogue. So let's say you upgraded your pre Facelift 300mm front brakes to 320mm ones, this can be added as a note related to group 42, where then a pop up will appear with the text the person has saved in the file, I.e. Part numbers or reference...
My car has this exemplary stating all changed parts and related part numbers of the brake system. So anyone later on owning this car will have no issues maintaining it.
Now how many dealers follow such things and how many dealers are notified about changes and are they willing or even competent enough to update it - that's a whole other subject.

 

[Rouven036]

One more thing, only the sl73 was officially available where of the 70 & 72 were only available through amg as conversions. Back in the day the data cards were (mostly) not updated when the vehicle received changes after leaving the factory and systems weren't interlinked as it is today. Also and unfortunately nobody cared to sit down from amg or mb to join/update the documentation.

For such cars the process is quite simple and only possible for the actual vehicle owner.
You can send an inquiry to amg along with your Id copy and proof of ownership. Only then they will revert with details of what (that's another topic) is available in their files to this specific chassis number.
Alternatively through your authorised local dealer.
Forget to inquire for cars without having proof of ownership, you won't get far.

 

[weide1]

As for the AMG variants, the emphasis must be on documentation and verification.

Do you consider documents like the ones in post #32 and #63 to be sufficient/suitable for a definite verification?
I've seen them in slightly other layout - on paper - on other forums too. Then they look like these. As attached.

As for the owner of that specific SL70/72, PurpleDog. He mentioned in #72 to check the engine stamp.
This would maybe have solved the case.

He hasn't responded since. This was 2017.
I also let it take its course.

But now that ariok47 pops up with maybe a similar configuration, i am trying to reach PurpleDog again.
To see if he can bring light in this darkness.

 

[195910]

Do you consider documents like the ones in post #32 and #63 to be sufficient/suitable for a definite verification?
I've seen them in slightly other layout - on paper - on other forums too. Then they look like these. As attached.

As for the owner of that specific SL70/72, PurpleDog. He mentioned in #72 to check the engine stamp.
This would maybe have solved the case.

He hasn't responded since. This was 2017.
I also let it take its course.

But now that ariok47 pops up with maybe a similar configuration, i am trying to reach PurpleDog again.
To see if he can bring light in this darkness.

Just to clarify. I am not questioning any of the cars being discussed in this thread, but simply asking about the documentation and verification methods.

Can you clarify the 2 screen shots in post 32 and 63 ? is this a build/conversion sheet? original paper form with the headings available ?

 

[weide1]

Can you clarify the 2 screen shots in post 32 and 63 ? is this a build/conversion sheet? original paper form with the headings available ?

I just found them on a forum. As attached in my previous post. I don't remember which forum though.
Maybe it was part of the mobile ad in 2015?

This is what PurpleDog wrote on a UK forum.

 

[weide1]

Next week I will upload all the pics.
The sl72 was originally badged as an sl 70 but the engine is stamped as a 72 the vin is WDB1290761F126839

It's next week.

 

[weide1]

I'm having a private conversation with Ariok47.
I asked him today why he is not responding anymore. Or posting pictures.
This he replied.

 

[Markus-MD]

We will can wait.

 

[weide1]

Gorgeous article. History: AMG JAPAN's timeline and statistics - THE MB-140 SCHOOL

With this important sentence.

 

[R129 UK]

We will can wait.

I’m sceptical tbh. 3 x SL73s

Or 72s or whatever they are…

 

[195910]

Gorgeous article. History: AMG JAPAN's timeline and statistics - THE MB-140 SCHOOL

With this important sentence.

A few notes on the article:

"AMG version was built (A016988), with SA code 990"
* Does this mean Yanase was altering VDOC codes and entering modifications that they made to the cars? 1991 is pre-merger, and not even the M-B factory was entering modification codes back then.
**See example: WDB1400571A016988 , 1991 600SEL with code 990 entered into VDOC !

"Since Mercedes was not involved in the sale and modification of optional parts beyond their price list, they were not aware of most of the cars that were later sent to AMG. Therefore, most AMG cars cannot be found through the information Mercedes has, and AMG has almost never released information about the 140. The identity of AMG 140s must be speculated based on common sense and non-common sense."
* Is this a non-factory approved modification? where was Yanase sourceing the Mercedes-AMG non-factory parts ?

"It is also impossible to identify them by any SA code, on the data card they are exactly the same as regular Japan-spec cars."
"In the end, many AMG JAPAN cars that got tuned engines were not number matching"
* Was Yanase entering these code 990 themselves ? how was this being approved for entry?
* Any examples of crate engines + ECU + instrument clusters being sent from Affalterbach to Yanase ?

"all 1995 S-Klasse in AMG JAPAN had a body kit that was not approved by Mercedes."
"In July 1995, the AMG facelift body kit of sedan was finally ready and it reappeared on the options list of European dealers. Meanwhile made its way to Japan along with other improvements"
"new models S600L 7.0 and CL600 7.0 were officially introduced to replace the previous 7.2"
"from MY1997 Mercedes stopped offering AMG body kits for the coupé, while AMG JAPAN continued to use the old body kits like what they did on sedan in early MY1995."
"so AMG JAPAN cars continued to use the pre-facelift body kit until the end of production."
* Sounds like chaos! Mercedes-AMG were not making W140 tuning parts, but Yanase was selling "W140 AMG" fitted with old stock parts?

"The serial number 008942 of this engine means that it is a fairly early 119.970, usually this only means that AMG rebuilt an old 1991 engine and installed it in a 1995 car, which is not uncommon. But in this case, this engine number belongs to a 1992 500 SEL first sold to the US, A035614, which was produced in October 1991, first registered in January 1992. Lived in Pennsylvania, USA until recently, until it was totalled in a traffic accident in June 2017"
* What are the chances of this being the old engine of that 1992 500SE ? or was AMG / Yanase stamping their own engine numbers ?

". A few years ago, we also noticed that counterfeit AMG JAPAN cars appeared on the market."
*This sums all the concerns regarding these non-documented "AMG Japan" products. According to the author, there is no method of verifying the authenticity of these cars. I would suggest my method, but then have we not seen examples with service history, invoices, entry into vehicle registration, build sheets, etc,.

 

[WDB748372]

"AMG version was built (A016988), with SA code 990"
* Does this mean Yanase was altering VDOC codes and entering modifications that they made to the cars? 1991 is pre-merger, and not even the M-B factory was entering modification codes back then.
**See example: WDB1400571A016988 , 1991 600SEL with code 990 entered into VDOC !

I don't think Yanase could or was altering SA codes? Off the top of my head, I don't recall a Japanese conversion car having 990/957 code. The way I understood the article is chassis WDB1400571A016988 was developed with 990 code then displayed at IAA Frankfurt Motor Show in September 1991 but due to lack of response was brought over to Japan for display. The car had the 990 code to begin with so looks like 9/1991 it was being entered.

WDB1400571A016988 is the only 140.057 chassis with 990 but FWIW I found the first 990 3.4 CE WDB1240511B419906 from 12/1990 and the first 990 3.4 E WDB1240311B411377 from 11/1990!

At the IAA Frankfurt Motor Show in September 1991, AMG cars first appeared on the Mercedes-Benz stand, rather than being exhibited independently as before. In 1990, Mercedes-Benz and AMG decided to start cooperation, and actual cooperation began in 1991. The first work in the series was the AMG S-Klasse, the AMG 140 program began right after the world premiere. After few months development, a final AMG version was built (A016988), with SA code 990. It has a complete AMG modification including exterior, interior, suspension, exhaust.

But after the European premiere at Genf 1992, AMG S-Klasse did not receive enough response. Mercedes-Benz eventually decided to distribute some selected AMG parts only, as options of the regular S-Klasse in Europe. Which included body kits, shock absorbers and springs, mufflers, and rims. Even though the cooperation between Mercedes and AMG continued to deepen after 1993, Mercedes did not promote complete AMG S-Klasse throughout the production cycle of the 140. However, AMG JAPAN brought A016988 to Tokyo for display, and it attracted some potential buyers. Of course, whether the new AMG 600 SEL was attractive to the Japanese market or not, it was destined to be imported and sold by AMG JAPAN, which never missed a model. So, AMG JAPAN actually took over this model from Mercedes-Benz, and the AMG 140 continued to live on with the sales support of AMG JAPAN.

 

[gsxr]

* Sounds like chaos!

". A few years ago, we also noticed that counterfeit AMG JAPAN cars appeared on the market."
*This sums all the concerns regarding these non-documented "AMG Japan" products. According to the author, there is no method of verifying the authenticity of these cars. I would suggest my method, but then have we not seen examples with service history, invoices, entry into vehicle registration, build sheets, etc,.

Chaos indeed. The near total lack of documentation with most cars being sold/exported from Japan makes them a high-risk venture. Especially if you cannot inspect the car personally to verify the installed powertrain.

 

[ariok47]

Hi all. I got a picture of the engine stamp on the sl72. Here it is

 

[ariok47]

 

[ariok47]

Sorry here is a better quality picture

 

[ariok47]

Here are the engine stamps from the sl70

 

[ariok47]

Here is the engine stamp on the sl73

 

[ariok47]

And this is the other sl70 I have

 

[Rouven036]

Guys, with all speculation of authenticity, the only possibility for cars like W124/W140 is to contact AMG with proof of ownership. They will then state if this car is documented with them or not. However also for older cars like quad cam builds, very often no documentation exists.

For the conversion of engines I can tell you this much, on principle of the M119, if a car was send to amg for conversion it got (if a later model) a closed deck block. This block was re-stamped with the original - vehicle specific engine number and got then also the amg serial number.
So as on my 6L engine. The authenticity of the engine/transmission was verified with even getting the name,
& staff number of the technician and date when it was assembled.

It is also known that conversion kits for M117 to quad cam or performance kits with modified 2 valve heads were send out to the AMG distributors. I even tried to order the 160hp performance kit when I had my first car, a 190e 2.3 but at that tine in 98 or so it was NLA from AMG. But this was mostly for engines with the original capacity remaining.
Capacity increases were much more likely performed in affalterbach only.

 

[weide1]

Ariok47, thanks. To be honest i didn't expect you anymore to post these images.
That you did anyway i truly appreciate.

One question, where is the epsilon symbol and compression ratio?

​

 

[jhodg5ck]

ArioK in the real deal, Well Done Sir...

 

[ariok47]

I’ll make some videos of the cars next week and post for you guys. I’m fascinated with these r129 sl’s!

 

[ariok47]

Ariok47, thanks. To be honest i didn't expect you anymore to post these images.
That you did anyway i truly appreciate.

One question, where is the epsilon symbol and compression ratio?

​

Your guess is as good as mine lol

 

[ariok47]

Sorry here is a better quality picture
View attachment 197789

If this engine is stamped 0001 does this mean it’s the first sl72 produced ?

 

[weide1]

The first SL72 120.983 maybe?

Since this 021 is 120.981, and from 3/1995.

 

[WDB748372]

I don't think the engine numbers are a strong indicator in terms of the order vehicles were built. I have a M119 6.0 that's #80 with code 957 that was from new. It was the fourth from last 210.272 produced then another one that's #65 which was later converted, also an earlier produced car than the other.

I notice this in regular models too, not just the AMG 60/70+ stamped engines.
WDB2102721A087454 is the 2nd car produced with engine number 000214
WDB2102721A129197 is the 24th car produced with engine number 000026.

I don't know how to distinguish the datacards of a SL 70/72/73 to see if there is a 72 before WDB1290761F126839.

 

[weide1]

Maybe a Fahrzeugbrief shows?
VIN WDB1290761F117824 = Build date 02/1995. Release/Delivery date 03/1995.
Document shows 24.07.95. And other remarks, incl. left side K386/5900 and 7055, and right side M120-7.2.
Engine has this stamp 0038.

 

[weide1]

And what about this Fahrzeugbrief, that i first showed in #6 by the way.
Upper left side it mentions first registration 17.11.1992.
Below it reads Motor,AMG/KM120-7.2. Other remarks (again) 7055 and 0386/05900.
And Vmax 274. [moderator edit: 274kph = 170mph]

Left side in the middle it shows Erstzulassung .B. 31.12.1994.
This is the key sentence, i think. But what it exactly means?
First registration untill 31.12.1994.

 

[195910]

I

Maybe a Fahrzeugbrief shows?
VIN WDB1290761F117824 = Build date 02/1995. Release/Delivery date 03/1995.
Document shows 24.07.95. And other remarks, incl. left side K386/5900 and 7055, and right side M120-7.2.
Engine has this stamp 0038.

The Fahrzeugbrief shows a data entry. for comparison, the factory E60 AMG Fahrzeugbrief will have the engine capacity and kilowatt as the base values not altered, the AMG TUV approval should also be close to the production date.

This car is definitely an AMG 7.0, but several indications show its a post-production conversion. The title was already issued as an SL600, then later altered when AMG did the TUV approval 4 months after the vehicle was delivered to the customer.

 

[Jim Rosenthal]

I have tried to follow this discussion and I am hopelessly confused. From what I can gather, twelve-cylinder 129 models were made both my MB as factory production and also by AMG- is that right? I have read period road tests of twelve-cylinder 129s and they were quite positive. Are good examples out there, and are they worth pursuing?

 

[R129 UK]

I have tried to follow this discussion and I am hopelessly confused. From what I can gather, twelve-cylinder 129 models were made both my MB as factory production and also by AMG- is that right? I have read period road tests of twelve-cylinder 129s and they were quite positive. Are good examples out there, and are they worth pursuing?

You aren't alone...

V12 cars are (relatively) plentiful in the US so there should be a decent amount of good ones.

I read somewhere that over 50% of all the V8 5L cars went to the US too.

 

[Markus-MD]

And what about this Fahrzeugbrief, that i first showed in #6 by the way.
Upper left side it mentions first registration 17.11.1992.
Below it reads Motor,AMG/KM120-7.2. Other remarks (again) 7055 and 0386/05900.
And Vmax 274. [moderator edit: 274kph = 170mph]

Left side in the middle it shows Erstzulassung .B. 31.12.1994.
This is the key sentence, i think. But what it exactly means?
First registration untill 31.12.1994.

This is the date for the first Registration on German Gouverment.Maybe here in Germany we haved befor crazy EU Cert. Somtimes change of Regulation with Exhaust Gas limits .And so you can find many Cars with 31,12.19......... Birthyear.The Manufacture must This doo too this date .Then after this point he cant make any Registration in Germany

 

[Markus-MD]

Dezibel was too an Limit Point

 

[195910]

Gentlemen I understand this is confusing, but it will get a little more confusing after this post.

According to the German R129 Club (will contact them this week), 48 SL73 AMG were produced from 04.1999 to 05.2001. The SL73 was based on the SL600 with both AMG styling package and AMG wheels. This piece of information might help in determining which were the factory ordered cars.

But then, I have seen an authenticity certificate for a 1996 built (Model year 1997) SL73 AMG.. with the data card modified to show the car as SL73 AMG !! its a dusseldorf branch (tourist car) with no amg wheels and styling codes!

We need a confirmed factory built SL70/SL73 to verify all these cases, not and AMG Japan car, but an actual factory ordered Affalterbach assembled R129 V12 AMG. I think affalterbach still has the press car SL73.

 

[ariok47]

Has anyone seen this :

For Sale: 1995 Mercedes Benz SL72 AMG in San Diego, California

Find classic cars, collector cars and vintage muscle cars on ClassicCars.com. Search, sell or buy and Drive Your Dream today!

classiccars.com

Very interesting info regarding sl72/73

FS: 1995 SL72 AMG, White/Black, 58kkm, $0.1M USD (San Diego, CA) | Off-Topic Discussions

I'm not sure if this car has been discussed but seems interesting: http://inventory.symbolicinternational.com/vehicles/35/1995-mercedes-benz-sl72-amg VIN = WDB1290761F117824 1995 MERCEDES-BENZ SL72 AMG The rarest AMG model ever conceived and built, a completely original SL 72. Over 525bhp...

www.500eboard.co

 

[WDB748372]

Maybe a Fahrzeugbrief shows?
VIN WDB1290761F117824 = Build date 02/1995. Release/Delivery date 03/1995.
Document shows 24.07.95. And other remarks, incl. left side K386/5900 and 7055, and right side M120-7.2.
Engine has this stamp 0038.

As I'm reading this thread more, I didn't know about what @Rouven036 mentioned which was the SL 70/72 being offered as conversions and the SL 73 being the official model, so what I said about an earlier VIN doesn't really apply then to the 70/72.

@ariok47 If you haven't already, you could inquire with AMG Classic about your SL 72 engine #0001 being the first car converted but at least in my experience recently, particularly with their new process, they seem reluctant on providing any details beyond their confirmation aka the "Conversion Confirmation."

​

 

[weide1]

Has anyone seen this :

For Sale: 1995 Mercedes Benz SL72 AMG in San Diego, California

Find classic cars, collector cars and vintage muscle cars on ClassicCars.com. Search, sell or buy and Drive Your Dream today!

classiccars.com

Very interesting info regarding sl72/73

FS: 1995 SL72 AMG, White/Black, 58kkm, $0.1M USD (San Diego, CA) | Off-Topic Discussions

I'm not sure if this car has been discussed but seems interesting: http://inventory.symbolicinternational.com/vehicles/35/1995-mercedes-benz-sl72-amg VIN = WDB1290761F117824 1995 MERCEDES-BENZ SL72 AMG The rarest AMG model ever conceived and built, a completely original SL 72. Over 525bhp...

www.500eboard.co

Yes. That´s the one from #180.
I saw it for the first time 2/2017. I mentioned it slightly in #46.
At that time i was all about gathering documents to show 70 and 72 being equal displacement.

 

[195910]

I spoke with the R129 Club. They were surprised about the interest in the R129 AMG cars, but will check the records for us as the have access to factory documentation.

 

[ariok47]

Yes. That´s the one from #180.
I saw it for the first time 2/2017. I mentioned it slightly in #46.
At that time i was all about gathering documents to show 70 and 72 being equal displacement.

It mentions that there are differences between the sl70 and sl72/73. Displacement is the same for 72/73 whereas 70 is different. Also different parts.

 

[weide1]

It mentions that there are differences between the sl70 and sl72/73. Displacement is the same for 72/73 whereas 70 is different. Also different parts.

Displacement 70/72 is the same, 73 is different. See #46.

 

[ariok47]

Very interesting. I’m curious enough that I will try and contact amg. Seems like the 72 was more of a pre merger car and the sl70/ 73 was offered through Mercedes dealers. The sl72 seems to be the most rare of the bunch

 

[gsxr]

Displacement 70/72 is the same, 73 is different. See #46.

Based on the photos in posts #46 and #100, it appears the 70/72 have the same displacement, but but 72 was rated a bit higher in power (kw/ps/hp):

E70 with ME 1.0 = 365kw / 496ps / 490hp @ 5500rpm, 720Nm / 530tq @ 3900
E72 with LH-SFI = = 386kw / 525ps / 518 hp, @ 5900rpm, 740Nm / 545tq @ 4000

The odd part is the older LH engine was rated higher than the newer ME engine.

Unless the main difference was cams/porting, where the "72" received more massaging to bump power, and the ECU/computer/management was irrelevant?

 

[weide1]

Let's make it a bit more complicated , there are also E70 with LH-SFI, and E72 with ME 1.0.
The ariok47 having E72 ME 1.0.

And there are even E70 with LH-SFI with 386 kW / 525ps / 518 hp, @ 5900rpm, with unknown Nm/tq to me.
As shown in #15 1st image.

 

[gsxr]

Let's make it a bit more complicated , there are also E70 with LH-SFI, and E72 with ME 1.0.
The ariok47 having E72 ME 1.0.

And there are even E70 with LH-SFI with 386 kW / 525ps / 518 hp, @ 5900rpm, with unknown Nm/tq to me.
As shown in #15 1st image.

This supports the theory that the higher power rating is due to different components and/or porting of the heads/manifolds.

Although, it's odd they would have a different name/number (70 vs 72) when it seems there were standard and "high output" versions of each, with both engine management systems (LH vs ME).

 

[weide1]

Maybe it's just like Brabus with their B12 / B13 stages?

 

[weide1]

I spoke with the R129 Club. They were surprised about the interest in the R129 AMG cars, but will check the records for us as the have access to factory documentation.

I wonder what documentation will pop up. Keep us posted.

 

[R129 UK]

I spoke with the R129 Club. They were surprised about the interest in the R129 AMG cars, but will check the records for us as the have access to factory documentation.

Who are the R129 club? Any links etc.?

Thanks.