Mercedes E60 AMG LIMITED

[gerryvz]

I was offered 65000 eur for the car by a collector in 2011

I would have taken this offer immediately and run to the bank. Why did you not complete the transaction?

In my opinion you can't really count this as a serious offer / market price unless the deal is actually completed.

If it had been completed, you would have likely set the high-water price for an 036 of any form, in at least the last 5-7 years !!!

 

[500AMM]

Thanks for a thorough reply, Gerry.

I said I wouldn't debate, but you have some very interesting statements there, especially point 5 about asking price versus offered payment – non-completed deals - hidden deals/prices - what is ACTUALLY forming the market prices. The overall market is undoubtedly influenced and controlled by the global economical situation at any time and the recession in the US and Central Europe, simply due to the fact that the world finances are driven by the largest economies - the USD and Euro. Today's market will - as you indicate, leave the high priced objects - whether they are worth it or not, over to a potential customer group having the funds to pay whatever asking price if they want the car. And again as you said, it's not always the money itself, but intangibles and also investment objects. Just look at the offer Ole (Mosselmann) got on his E60 AMG Limited in this thread - 65.000 Euro!?! He didn't say where it came from, but it won't surprise me it's from a Norwegian. Norway is going like a "high speed-money loaded-freight train" due to its independence and with both legs solidly planted in both economies – harvesting the sweet fruits based on the needs for high technology, fossil fuel and water power resources. It's a paradox but true, and some sort of a parallel to the Middle East, but in a totally different way, but some people have stuffed wallets over here.

It seems to be different price markets between the US, Central Europe, Japan and Middle East. I guess the US market is continental since the import is more or less locked due to the emission requirements etc.. (based on what I've read here on the board). That forms a specific US market for that existing number of cars. In general do this market appear to have a lower price level than Europe, and one influencing factor is the high VAT in Europe. But we also see a dropping price level in Europe, which I personally think is the aging of the cars, the continual ticking mileage, along with annual reduction of cars in fairly running condition. That segregates even more into a high priced group and what that group will contain.

I would be happy if someone acquired the 6.0 6-speed RENNtech and made it “available” for us here. Bring it into the light – it need some fresh air now! And I’m sure Ole keeps his E60 AMG Limited periodic maintained and well secured, and most of all – untouched. Among the vintage enthusiasts it is said “Restore that car - and die!”

 

[Mosselmann]

It was a german collector, he would pay 65000 eur for it including german taxes wich means, i had to drop the price with 19%, I think that is the tax level there. But it shows how much some people are willing to pay for it.
So for me it would be better to sell it to f.eks Arnt.

In 2011 I wasn't ready to sell the car, what you (gerry) would have done is up to you. I kept the car, it has given me tons of joy wich is difficult to measure in profit. some people measure joy with their wallet, I measure it with my heart

When I visited the dealer (Bernhard Weiss) in Germany, he said this car will rize in value about 10% each year, so he said it was a good investment..
If that is correct, I dont't know, but he is probably one of the best to ask when it comes to see trends in the market and what these cars is worth

I started this tread to get a neutral answer what my car is worth, not to defend myself why I didn't sell it.

 

[bing]

In 2011 I wasn't ready to sell the car,

I started this tread to get a neutral answer what my car is worth

Not that I can afford it are you now ready to sell it, hence you're trying to feel the market value??

 

[gerryvz]

I started this tread to get a neutral answer what my car is worth, not to defend myself why I didn't sell it.

I think you have some directional indicators toward an answer - EUR 65.000 minus 19%. But for whatever reason you were not comfortable with this (following your heart).

My main points are that values are: 1) world economy and market dependent (Europe vs. US vs. middle East vs. Japan, etc.); 2) whatever a buyer wants to pay and a seller wants to accept; 3) not as high as some people like to think.

So it's really hard to pin this down. But if you can get EUR 65.000 today, take it and then go buy two or three new 036s or other cars for more enjoyment. Personally as a US-citizen I'd buy gold because it will be one of the only valuable things when our US economy & currency collapses when the US becomes like Greece......I know you don't face these problems in Norway.

When I visited the dealer (Bernhard Weiss) in Germany, he said this car will rize in value about 10% each year, so he said it was a good investment..
If that is correct, I dont't know, but he is probably one of the best to ask when it comes to see trends in the market and what these cars is worth

Also - I think a dealer saying the car will grow 10% a year in value is optimistic. I have not see this type of appreciation in the past 10 years. Generally speaking I have not seen any real appreciation of the 036 in the past 10 years.

The best people to look at prices and trends in the market are not dealers, who are motivated by self-interest and profit. The best person would be someone who is tracking CONSUMMATED SALES DEALS (confirmed sales prices) and not speculation. I know of no dealer who spends time and effort intimately tracking car prices, particularly for a specific low-production model. They use sales guides and their gut {"how much profit do I think I can make") to price cars. I do know plenty of independent market observers and firms who do this, and auction prices do not lie too. One I trust on all collectible Mercedes valuations worldwide, that has been in the business for more than 25 years, is the SL Market Letter (www.slmarket.com). I have subscribed to their newsletter for more than 10 years now.

So I would look at recent auction prices in Europe (for example perhaps at events like the Techno-Classica, Essen Motor Show, Retromobile and other large auctions (Coy's, Bonham's, etc.) where E500Es have been or are being sold) for some direction on prices, and the US market for some direction too. It does seem that 036s are fetching higher prices in Europe these days than in the US, but perhaps 10-20% maximum delta.

Cheers,
Gerry

P.S. Can you provide the month and year of production, from the door plate containing the VIN? I would expect December of 1994 or January of 1995 but I wanted to make sure.....

 

[weide1]

Not that long ago.

http://www.nast-sonderfahrzeuge.de/MB-Exotenforum/board_entry.php?id=91963

 

[weide1]

i agree it is one of a kind,, and the first EVER AMG car to have this famous figure 957,, that all AMG cars have today

I always thought this M117/9 was the first. And even the M104 E 34 was called AMG Technik Paket (957).

 

[gsxr]

I always thought this M117/9 was the first. And even the M104 E 34 was called AMG Technik Paket (957).

I believe code 957 started as of 1/1/1992, so it wouldn't be the M117, as there were no M117 vehicles produced in 1992. Could be some M104's though. For the 124.036 code 957 didn't appear until the facelift, as the E60 AMG. There were no pre-facelift 500E's with code 957, AFAIK.

 

[gerryvz]

View attachment 13762

Not that long ago.

http://www.nast-sonderfahrzeuge.de/MB-Exotenforum/board_entry.php?id=91963

Again, an ASKING PRICE by one of the three most costly sellers on the planet.

**NOT** a true & accurate indicator of the market for these cars. You can ask whatever you want, but whether you get it or not (as evidenced by money in hand and title transferred to hand of new owner) is entirely another story.

For the record, I saw at this same location (MB Young Classics dealership at the MB Museum) last summer a 560SEC with a EUR 45.000 asking price; 560SEL with a EUR 34.000 asking price; and a 123 coupe with EUR 24.000 asking price.

All of those are unbelievably optimistic asking prices.

 

[bing]

Long and short of this if we were to go by Herr Honcho's view and sensible approach , it's acquisition price that carries real value and trend, NOT the asking !

Makes sense but how do you establish past deals from buyers/sellers on what the final sum was or is in order to determine value.?

 

[gsxr]

...it's acquisition price that carries real value and trend, NOT the asking !

This is very true. And it's also difficult to obtain the actual sale prices, particularly for private sales. Even eBay sales are not necessarily accurate because (1) the deal may not complete at the posted sale price for various reasons, and (2) the eBay sale price could be artificial due to shills.

Speaking of which: I recently bought a part from an eBay seller in Germany where I suspected shill bidding, and sure enough some of his items were all 'won' by the same person, and then the items were re-listed ~24 hours later, only to be 'won' again by the same person. Be careful out there.

Anyhoo, if I owned a 957+958 car, I'd keep it, for a very very long time. Like probably until I couldn't drive anymore.

 

[Bondavi]

Lost in discussion are the valuation of Renntech 6.0 cars, I am curious in comparison to the E500E's and E60 AMG's.

Take in instance the 400E 6.0 I have, assuming it is the standard Renntech 6.0 build. Much more rarer than a E500 6.0 RENNtech, and yes, it does not have the flared fenders, but then again, it does not have SLS.

I would think the RT 6.0 E500E cars are somewhere in between the E500E's and E60's, but the rarer 124.034 conversions?

The car is modeled after the early Renntech 600E.

 

[gsxr]

Everything I've seen puts the RENNtechs at much lower values than AMG models, although I don't entirely understand why.

BTW, that 600E in the article above is based on a modified 300E and it has the older, tall-deck, CIS-E mechanical-injected 119.960 engine. HUGE modifications required for that particluar one-off build.

 

[gerryvz]

Makes sense but how do you establish past deals from buyers/sellers on what the final sum was or is in order to determine value.?

Basically you have to have people own up to what they paid for a car (or sold it for). I agree 100% that eBay is also **NOT** a reliable indicator of market value of any 036, and no independent firm or individual who follows MB collector car prices uses eBay sales as any sort of data input to their figures. Instead they rely on relationships and input from individuals about private and public sales, documented auction prices, and other guides as to collector car values to establish price guides.

It't not an exact science, but you're only as good as your data. It's the GIGO concept -- Garbage In, Garbage Out. If you have garbage-in price data (a la eBay) you're going to have garbage/unreliable stats and valuations. Real data will get you much closer, and that requires peoples' inputs, human relationships, and beating the streets to ask people what they paid/sold for.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[195910]

Gents.

German dealerships DON'T sell cars the same way US dealers do (Bought cars from both side of pond). They don't put a high negotiation margin like US... things are much straight and reputation is main factor... not Marketing stickers and paint glaze.

I personally know about an E500 Limited (68TKM) that was Young Classics for 55-57,000Euro in 2011... only a couple of weeks after in was put on the market. Our friend in Ulsby sold it to them

The collector condition cars and special models have rocketed in price with very few cars being offered. Market is strong in Europe, US market is suffering and cannot be taken as reference as no cars are allowed to be imported and nearly no special models available.

 

[bing]

German dealerships DON'T sell cars the same way US dealers do (Bought cars from both side of pond). They don't put a high negotiation margin like US... things are much straight and reputation is main factor... not Marketing stickers and paint glaze..

Agree on this count. From what I've seen (and personal experience in the US) it's pretty standard to knock thousands off the asking in the US. I know it's a different market but it sure bloody shocks me how far off the asking is when it comes to closing the actual deal.

However, take the case of that E60 from Young Classics priced at 84k euro, optimistic maybe, but try knocking that down to say 75k - 77k (as you probably would in the US) and issues or no issues they'll tell you to go and fly a kite.

 

[e500.org]

An absolutely MINT E60 AMG Limited (original) sold in the UK a few years ago for £25k.

Prices may have increased since then however this is certainly a ballpark figure. Took a while to sell to IIRC.

Bill

 

[gsxr]

An absolutely MINT E60 AMG Limited (original) sold in the UK a few years ago for £25k.

Prices may have increased since then however this is certainly a ballpark figure. Took a while to sell to IIRC.

Without the VIN it's hard to say if it was one of the twelve 957+958 cars. There are a lot of conversions out there. That price sounds low for a 957+958 car, but about right for a conversion.

 

[bing]

An absolutely MINT E60 AMG Limited (original) sold in the UK a few years ago for £25k.

That was back in 2006 and I know the PO, he had 2 ! 1 was a 957 + 958 code which he sold as it was clocked/rollback and described as a dog!. The other Limited 958 code after factory conversion he sold to the Tetrapac heir , Hans Rausing.

 

[e500.org]

Are you talking about Terry? Bloody hell, I was wondering what happened to his E60. It was a swiss car too IIRC.

I didn't know the other Limited was a conversion, the one from Hairpin Company. I was convinced it was an original E60 for some reason

 

[195910]

E60 LTD ... Rollback Dog ?!! Can't imagine a car like this being in this condition

 

[bing]

Are you talking about Terry? Bloody hell, I was wondering what happened to his E60. It was a swiss car too IIRC.

I didn't know the other Limited was a conversion, the one from Hairpin Company. I was convinced it was an original E60 for some reason

Yes! He was E500E fan , had 4 , 2 of which were E60s.

I think the not so nice one with 957 code recently turned up at Hairpin again which we discussed on MBclubUk. Famously, he drove around in it on Spanish plate till he asked the Hairpin company to sell it. The swiss E60 conversion one was still being driven by Hans Krausing late 2012 before his wife was found dead in their house.

 

[e500.org]

Need to get in touch with Mr. Rausing and get that damn E60!!!!

Probably under a cover in one of London's many underground garages, no doubt in between a couple of supercars.

Poor thing :sorrow:

 

[Azzyy]

check this out E60 AMG limited 1 of the 12 in the UK: http://www.classicandsportscar.com/...z/amg/mercedes-e60-amg-limited-1of-12/1275514

 

[szvook]

check this out E60 AMG limited 1 of the 12 in the UK: http://www.classicandsportscar.com/...z/amg/mercedes-e60-amg-limited-1of-12/1275514

...say what, £120,000? Is the seller high?

 

[Azzyy]

I have been reading a lot into 1 of 12 and its a very rare car and most be collectors peace with mileage like this. 18000 miles... lets see how well he does....

 

[bing]

Wayyyyy optimistic .. Looks like this one cameback from japan.

 

[195910]

Ha ha ha, price is funny.. maybe he added too many zeros

 

[gsxr]

Looks great but that price is about 20 years ahead of reality. Bummer they don't show the VIN.

 

[500AMM]

First of all, it is not in top shine!

Second, the MB star on the bonnet is missing/taken off.

Third, it is a blue pin striping along the sides. Hopefully it is decals which can be removed easily.

Yes, the price is 20 years ahead of reality. But when those days comes is probably most petrol quality we have today close to NLA. And petrol driven supercars are collecting dust in museums etc.. You get a Pagani Zonda for less than $100k.

 

[gsxr]

Moved discussion of the Frays Motors Limited to a separate thread:

http://www.500eboard.com/forums/sho...-E500-Limited-6-0L-17kmi-£85k-(Hillingdon-UK)

 

[500AMM]

Our first E60 Limited on the Forum!!

Some pictures please!

Lots of guys here will be excited to hear your stories about such a rare beauty !

Please start a nice owners thread with lots of photos.

oh, btw, your english is very good so i would not worry at all.

Bing - that is actually not correct, this is the second E60 AMG Limited in this thread. The starter of this thread is Mosselmann with his 124036 1C 204818. So it's now two original E60 AMG Limiteds posted in this thread - and that is mega great - Hurra!

 

[500AMM]

Hi Revox,

Welcome to the forum, regarding the picture attachment method this is normal for any forum/E-mail/Social Media account. Just copy the picture to ( My computer-> C:/ ) for the shortest trail.

Now regarding your car and the cars we are discussing in this thread. Your car is now worth more than what you paid, it is an original 1 of 12 and fully documented.
But you can't compare your car with the cars we are discussing here, as they are undocumented with no history because they are decommissioned (e.g. scrap) sold in auctions for export only..these are priced differently than your car (Bernhard will confirm this)


PS: there is no AMG/BRABUS/LORINSER/CARLSSON optik package for the E500E. they all come with the same bumpers & side skirts..

This is partly incorrect!!

The starter of this thread is Mosselmann with his 124036 1C 204818. He posted this thread to ask for the value on his car and he has also posted pics of it. But from post #40 was this thread derailed over to other cars which may be scrap or whatever condition they may have.

However, we managed to discuss the price on E60 AMG Limited in general terms. But I spoke to Mosselmann on phone after that discussion and he didn't feel welcome on this forum, so he will hardly return here again. I understand him because he was not met with much enthusiasm from all here. I think someone became jealous on his car. Read post #53, last sentence, and research why he said that.

 

[195910]

This is partly incorrect!!

The starter of this thread is Mosselmann with his 124036 1C 204818. He posted this thread to ask for the value on his car and he has also posted pics of it. But from post #40 was this thread derailed over to other cars which may be scrap or whatever condition they may have.

However, we managed to discuss the price on E60 AMG Limited in general terms. But I spoke to Mosselmann on phone after that discussion and he didn't feel welcome on this forum, so he will hardly return here again. I understand him because he was not met with much enthusiasm from all here. I think someone became jealous on his car. Read post #53, last sentence, and research why he said that.

Oh, My Mistake. I thought this was the thread about the Jap import car in the UK.
Mosselmann's car it top..He should not bother with what anyone says, just jealous A-holes.

Over here the Brabus 6.5 owner deals with such $hit all the time..the case is always this: "I was offered a car just like this for 10,000.- euro, but I didn't buy it ".. He never gets nice words only silly criticism.

 

[500AMM]

No offence A, off-topics can change the topic sometimes and be hard to trace.

It's pity to hear about the comments the Brabus owner get. But such comments often come from envy people with superficial knowledge about Brabus and similar special objects.

 

[195910]

But such comments often come from envy people with superficial knowledge about Brabus and similar special objects.

World is flooded with this, not only for cars but for everything !

 

[bing]

Bing - that is actually not correct, this is the second E60 AMG Limited in this thread. The starter of this thread is Mosselmann with his 124036 1C 204818. So it's now two original E60 AMG Limiteds posted in this thread - and that is mega great - Hurra!

Yes, you are quite right ! Sorry I lost tracked of this thread.

Perhaps Admin can help move Revox intro into Owners thread to avoid mix-ups, please?!

I spoke to Mosselmann on phone after that discussion and he didn't feel welcome on this forum, so he will hardly return here again. I understand him because he was not met with much enthusiasm from all here. I think someone became jealous on his car. Read post #53, last sentence, and research why he said that

Oh...and btw, also sorry to hear that Mosselmann felt this way.

 

[Jelmer]

ReVox's introduction has been moved to his own thread (http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?4144-Owner-ReVox), along with most replies to it.

 

[Bedfried]

E60 AMG Limited (1 of 12), Berkshire, 20.000 Km, 142.000*€

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifi...z/amg/mercedes-e60-amg-limited-1of-12/1275514

I found this one together with the other one for 90.000€ or so, they're both on PistonHeads. I wasn't sure if this one was listed or discussed as well, but I can't find it anywhere, so I suppose that wasn't the case.

 

[bing]

Re: E60 AMG Limited (1 of 12), Berkshire, 20.000 Km, 142.000*€

yes, posted here :http://www.500eboard.com/forums/sho...-AMG-LIMITED&p=42617&highlight=hear#post42617 Post 74

 

[Bedfried]

Re: E60 AMG Limited (1 of 12), Berkshire, 20.000 Km, 142.000*€

Ah damn, so many threads here!

Well, at least it's easier to find now and listed in the 'Cars for sale' section.

 

[alexis]

Re: E60 AMG Limited (1 of 12), Berkshire, 20.000 Km, 142.000*€

Hi,
For that price, I'd rather buy one of the latest Bentley Arnage...
Alex

 

[500AMM]

Re: E60 AMG Limited (1 of 12), Berkshire, 20.000 Km, 142.000*€

yes, posted here :http://www.500eboard.com/forums/sho...-AMG-LIMITED&p=42617&highlight=hear#post42617 Post 74

Could some of the ADMINs merge these threads please. Or delete this thread before it develops into a pointless dual thread.

Thanks

 

[Azzyy]

read this guys:
http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?4144-OWNER-ReVox-(E60-Limited)&p=47275#post47275

 

[mb280sel1985]

For sale - WDB 124036 1C 204818

Have a look at this little beauty:
http://www.finn.no/finn/car/used/viewimage?finnkode=45957172

1995 E60 AMG Limited Edition - 122.500 KM

Price: 549.000 NOK / $91.000 / 67.000€

 

[500AMM]

Re: For sale - WDB 124036 1C 204818

.
I wonder who the lucky owner will be...

-a-

 

[500AMM]

.
Mosselmanns E60 AMG Limited is now sold!

I've had contact with Mosselmann since my post #31 and his last post #53 in this thread. We discussed the sale over time and he did in fact want me to take it to be sure it went to a good home and remained in Norway - what a honour and privilege to be given! But it was hard for me to dig up the finances, despite he also held the car back a bit to give me time. I was in fact hunting for this car already back in 2007, but it disappeared so I lost track on it. Mosselmann bought it in 2009, so from that point it has been resting in Norway all these years without my knowledge! I guess this is the ending story for me on it, but it's sad that I never managed to see it live and hopefully get a ride in it when it was quite close to me (500 km).

This car was never fully tax'd into Norway, only VAT was paid. But the asking price NOK 651.352 do also include the import tax, because it's not allowed to advertise cars officially in Norway without all tax included in the asking price. If you look further down in the advertisement http://www.finn.no/finn/car/used/obj...nkode=45957172 you see NOK 549.000 without import tax as the wanted price.

Mosselmann phoned me on Friday night and told about the pending sale - or in fact settled deal on it. He didn't get his asking price on NOK 549.000 (€65.200, $88.900) but it was damn close to!! The car goes back to Germany and will probably end up as a "dust collector" in a car collection and hardly be seen on the road again - that's even more pity IMHO.

wned:

 

[Maui]

I have to say you europeans sure love to be taxed. Damn near $20,000 in taxes on 20 year old car. There is no doubt the taxes paid over the years have exceeded the value of the car.

 

[500AMM]

I have to say you europeans sure love to be taxed. Damn near $20,000 in taxes on 20 year old car. There is no doubt the taxes paid over the years have exceeded the value of the car.

Ken - I don't fully agree on that statement because it's not an optional "choice" we have.
However, whether it is import tax on cars, sallary tax, VAT etc.., it allows the hungry government to distribute some very good social benefits; free hospitals and medical care, free education (some universities is partly free), solid labour rights giving 5 weeks vacation and 3 months term of notice, 100% holiday payments, 12 months maternity leave full paid etc.. But I don't want to start a tax discussion here.

---- ---- ----

I think the sales price on Mosselmanns car demonstrates the price discussion going in this thread indicating that the value of the E60 AMG Limited and E60 AMG is not that high, was wrong. The prices on good samples is high and it will increase.

 

[ReVox]

wow respect, yes I can confirm that tax is on the on hand finally expensive but on the other hand as mentioned will allow a lot of good things for the habitants. I can confirm similarity in Lux.

Would be interesting who is the happy new owner in Germany. But he did it right. Every € worth.

Good luck new owner. Hope to see you once on the street when taking the dust out.

ReVox