Bolt on performance exhaust for the 500e (testing waters)

[5thscaleracer]

*** ADMIN EDIT ***

Quick links to pricing as of early 2015:

See post #272 for cat-back pricing info & photos, Dec-2014.

See post #430 for full system pricing info (does not include catalysts).

See post #499 for info on catalysts & test pipes:


New thread with new pricing as of 2017: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10919

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Basically...

if I build a kit is there at least 10 people interested?

little background...

I come from the 190e 16v group, I do not own a 500e yet but in my spare time I like to build performace parts to enhance these cars.

What I am proposing is to build a true exhaust for the 500e. These will be manifold back with an option for a California legal cat.

this exhaust will not be compatible with any factory or oe replacement equivalent this is a new full stand alone unit.

I will be handling the design from pipe bends, to internal muffler construction to control sound (no cabin drone).

What I need to know is are there 10 solid buyers (not tire kickers or dreamers). If there is a demand I can make this happen with in a 2-3month turnaround.

just to give you an idea a manifold back exhaust for the 16v sells for $1300 w/o cat or 1560.00 with.

my target price for a 500e application will be $1800-2200.00 based on 10 complete kits, 15 or more drops 10%.

tip style will be angle cut thin wall similar to the angle brabus tips.


so let's hear some feedback from you guys...


*************** Updated info 11-2-2015 **********************

For Pricing Info contact Matt @ Leistung for more info.


*** Going forward only two tip configurations will be offered, turndown and Brabus style tip, the dual round will be phased out after the 3 kits are sold.***

any questions contact Matt at Leistung Autohaus sales@leistungautohaus.com

 

[Glen]

JC,
It's great you are looking into making a high quality exhaust for the E500E! You may want to consider retaining the factory cats, at least as an option. Whether that means as a cat back only system or a full system utilizing the stock cats. I say this because the factory cats are decent in terms of flow and quality and also they are aesthetically good looking...better than most aftermarket California legal cats. JMO.

Thanks,
Glen

 

[gerryvz]

You've got my attention. But your post is light on the bennies here.

OK, so what are the deets? What are the key benefits?

Nicer aesthetics?

Higher performance?

Better/faster exhaust flow?

Better sound?

Better butt-dyno results?

The factory system is pretty good. Many (including myself) have tried to create better cat-back systems over the years, including going with larger diameter tubing, removing the stock center resonator, adding Y-pipes, X and H crossovers, higher-flow cats, more efficient rear cans, you name it.

Nobody has been able to extract more dyno-tested HP than the stock system provides.

Can you help us out with more info?

There would definitely be a market here, yes, if you can create a more efficient system that makes the right sounds at the right times.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[ccrelan]

I have bought JC's custom 5 speed flywheel and m104 downpipe. Both pieces are great quality and he is great to deal with. I am personally waiting for some wagon rear mufflers!

 

[gsxr]

The aftermarket system would probably be lighter than factory, and cheaper than new factory cats. However the power gain on the dyno will likely be very, very small (if any).

I think it will be extremely difficult to get 10 confirmed buyers, but I could be wrong...

 

[KarlC]

The aftermarket system would probably be lighter than factory, and cheaper than new factory cats. However the power gain on the dyno will likely be very, very small (if any).

I think it will be extremely difficult to get 10 confirmed buyers, but I could be wrong...

IF there was good dyno proven gains the buyers would come.

 

[Maui]

I could go to my local exhaust shop and get something built that would probably flow better than the stock system. I'd have to see the final product and results before committing.

 

[5thscaleracer]

Ok some food for thought..
I have at my disposal a 500e and after examining the factory exhaust there are a lot of areas of improvement.

Issues with exhaust
Flow and turbulence every time there is a flange, seam, or union of any type there is a disruption of flow typically this will cause the exhaust gas to tumble when you don't want. What this means is exhaust gasses slow down and start to create back pressure.

I plan to optimize the pipe layout basically streamline any potential spots that will prevent the natural flow of exhaust gasses.

H pips x pipes and y pipes are a way to create back pressure in a free flowing exhaust system. Depending on location and speed of gas at that location can either help create torque or reduce performance.
There is some math involved to calculate each exhaust pulse to get an idea of where these should be located if required typically I tend to put them in the muffler because when you use a h,x,or y the exhaust starts to emit a rattle can bb sound. This is why exhaust tubular headers have a metallic sound when at operating temp.

Now pipe diameter I was thinking if doing a dual 2.5" to a single 3" to the rear exhaust.

Most of the resonance and exhaust gas pulse balance will be handled before the resonator and the rear muffler will be designed to speed up the exhaust gasses. (Rear box will be hotter in terms of temperature)

As for cats.. The only reason why I threw this up there is because the standard cat is a 3 way 1000cpsi cat. With today's resources we have the ability to utilize a 3 way cat with 500to 600cpsi while retaining the same efficiency to pass ca smog. These are not like the cheap 50-80 dollar weld on junkies. The cats I am talking about start at 200-400 each.

The biggest benefit for the v8 is the y pipe union into the cat. This is where you can extract power. Anything after the cat will only offer 1-3% power gains but reworking the front half will uncork the car significantly.

Amg e60 uses a radically redesigned front pipe into the cat. It's stepped not a single size pipe going down.

Ok you mentioned cat back option..
This can be done price will be cheaper but the issue is power gains are reduced.
What if an exhaust is made with the option to bolt on the OE cat (using supplied flanges that a local muffler shop will need to weld in place). This way you have the option to run the cat for smog and remove them for non smog years??

As for sound..
I have been down that road of using universal mufflers and designing an exhaust around it. Truth is magma flow, borla, bb flow master & all the local guys make mufflers for flow they boast that muffler x flows 1,000cfm etc. They do not take into account the type of engine and the resonance frequency produced also heat. There is a lot of trial and error that still happens with exhaust making.

I like the raw sounding mufflers similar to akrapovic with out the akra price tag. Sound will be the key selling point because the 500e needs to retain a sporty sound while keeping a level of refinement.

With the holidays around the corner not much will be done. It's mostly bench time and number crunching. My pipe bender resumes business in February so expect to see some action in feb/march 2014.

Please share some feed back on the topic and also experiences with Remus, Mec, rentech units.

The more info shared the better I can design an exhaust for this car.

Thanks
JC


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[Maui]

I believe you mean Magnaflow.

 

[Ron500E]

As I see it... this group is divided between 2 camps. Those who want to keep their cars original and those who want to modify them. I in the original group.
That said... the price of factory Kats is beyond high so I might be interested in a set if only to preserve my original low mileage system.

As far as getting 10 confirmed orders.... easier to find a Unicorn who has successfully signed up for Obamacare. There was a thread, a Group Buy, some years ago about a NOS system for $2000 or so with proven benefits of a reasonable HP gain. Everyone and their brother-in-law wanted one but when it came time to actually part with money I think no more than 2-3 people actually opened their wallet.
I guess they system will also fit the 034's but those people are even cheaper than we are, if that's even possible.....

FWIW, my experience is that you should get a deposit to cover your expenses before going into production otherwise you'll hear ever excuse in the book and some that aren't when it comes time to pay.

I wish you luck with your project, I have repro'd many 356 Porsche parts and I know the amount of work that goes into the smallest item.

If you want endless conversation and a real downer as far as what you're trying to do... I suggest BW, but have lots of Prozac ready.
Kind Regards,

Ron

 

[gerryvz]

IF there was good dyno proven gains the buyers would come.

+1

But I'm not going to pay $2K for 10 HP. If I did, it better be made out of pure titanium and come with a Sports Illustrated swimsuit model.

 

[5thscaleracer]

I could go to my local exhaust shop and get something built that would probably flow better than the stock system. I'd have to see the final product and results before committing.

Yes any muffler shop can bend pipes and use free flowing exhausts but some things you should consider..

1. Does stainless steel matter also USA stainless, Germany stainless and imported stainless are of different quality
2. Welded unions does a muffler shop use t321 stainless filler rod to prevent cracks when t304 expands (grows up to 1/8").
3. Flanges are they t304 stainless to prevent rusty and possibly crack over time.
4. Internal muffler construction I will use t304 and t321. Industry standard is t304 canister shell, t409 (mild stainless) internal construction. This is why some aftermarket mufflers "blow out" after 4-5 years. They rust internally...
5. Argon purging? Is this used at the local muffler shop?
6. Tig vs mig vs arc? Tig will be used on sections to isolate heat and prevent growth. Mig will be used on high stress areas to prevent cracks and fractures, arc will be left to the muffler shops.

Price is always an issue and I totally understand that. I am not in the market to sell a lot of these, I am after the enthusiast that takes pride in owning a 500e and spares no expense to maintain these cars.

I kind if i operate based on pride in building quality parts. I am not in it to make a quick buck it's more of the accomplishment of making something great for those who will appreciate them.

What you are paying for is craftsmanship. Like watches.. Both time and Rolex keep time accurately but why buy a Rolex aside from the bling factor?? Why buy a 500e over a 400e? Why buy a 16v 190 over a 190 2.6?

Here is a 16v exhaust so you have an idea of what type if work will be produced
View attachment 23566View attachment 23567View attachment 23568


Btw if you guys really want to get crazy headers can be made!!! Lol


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[5thscaleracer]

+1

But I'm not going to pay $2K for 10 HP. If I did, it better be made out of pure titanium and come with a Sports Illustrated swimsuit model.

Yes I will dyno the car before and after and if gains are not made then one lucky guy will get a sweet sounding exhaust and the project will be scrapped.


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[Maui]

Shall we all send in our money in advance? Maybe others here know who you are but I don't.

Since moving to Mercedes from American muscle cars one of the things that struck me was the high cost of exhaust systems. I think American Racing Headers makes one of the best headers on the planet and you can get a very nice set for a Corvette for about $1200 depending on the vendor. I looked at headers for my SL only to find a couple brands and they wanted upwards of $5000! IMHO there is not a set of headers on the planet worth $5000. I don't care if your name is Renntech or Barabus, the stuff is way over priced. Obviously these Merc vendors know they are dealing with people who have money and can get away with charging five times what something is actually worth.

 

[5thscaleracer]

As I see it... this group is divided between 2 camps. Those who want to keep their cars original and those who want to modify them. I in the original group.
That said... the price of factory Kats is beyond high so I might be interested in a set if only to preserve my original low mileage system.

As far as getting 10 confirmed orders.... easier to find a Unicorn who has successfully signed up for Obamacare. There was a thread, a Group Buy, some years ago about a NOS system for $2000 or so with proven benefits of a reasonable HP gain. Everyone and their brother-in-law wanted one but when it came time to actually part with money I think no more than 2-3 people actually opened their wallet.
I guess they system will also fit the 034's but those people are even cheaper than we are, if that's even possible.....

FWIW, my experience is that you should get a deposit to cover your expenses before going into production otherwise you'll hear ever excuse in the book and some that aren't when it comes time to pay.

I wish you luck with your project, I have repro'd many 356 Porsche parts and I know the amount of work that goes into the smallest item.

If you want endless conversation and a real downer as far as what you're trying to do... I suggest BW, but have lots of Prozac ready.
Kind Regards,

Ron

Yup I totally understand what you are saying..

An exhaust was made for the w201 guys I only expected to sell 10-15 kits to date there are 40 in circulation at $1200-$1500 a pop depending on final configuration.

As for deposits this won't happen until the first one is built and dyno tested.






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[Ron500E]

Amg e60 uses a radically redesigned front pipe into the cat. It's stepped not a single size pipe going down.
Tapatalk

I'm not sure that is accurate, do have any pics of the E60 system? I assume you mean the 124 series.

Ron

 

[Ron500E]

Shall we all send in our money in advance? Maybe others here know who you are but I don't.

Since moving to Mercedes from American muscle cars one of the things that struck me was the high cost of exhaust systems. I think American Racing Headers makes one of the best headers on the planet and you can get a very nice set for a Corvette for about $1200 depending on the vendor. I looked at headers for my SL only to find a couple brands and they wanted upwards of $5000! IMHO there is not a set of headers on the planet worth $5000. I don't care if your name is Renntech or Barabus, the stuff is way over priced. Obviously these Merc vendors know they are dealing with people who have money and can get away with charging five times what something is actually worth.

Maui:

The Vette people can sell a system for much less because the market is greater, much greater. When AMG first produced headers back in the 80's they were.... $4000, THEN.... very low volume, Basically made to order and like any custom built item it's more expensive.

Ron

 

[5thscaleracer]

Shall we all send in our money in advance? Maybe others here know who you are but I don't.

Since moving to Mercedes from American muscle cars one of the things that struck me was the high cost of exhaust systems. I think American Racing Headers makes one of the best headers on the planet and you can get a very nice set for a Corvette for about $1200 depending on the vendor. I looked at headers for my SL only to find a couple brands and they wanted upwards of $5000! IMHO there is not a set of headers on the planet worth $5000. I don't care if your name is Renntech or Barabus, the stuff is way over priced. Obviously these Merc vendors know they are dealing with people who have money and can get away with charging five times what something is actually worth.

No hold your money I have enough capital to build jigs and 3-4 test units... When production runs and time schedules are booked then I will ask for a deposit. All I ask is if you place a deposit don't back out because there are a hand full of 500e guys and these are not easy kits to sell.


Leistung Autohaus will be the main distributor for these 500e kits infact they will be sold through Matt Stockwell. I am simply the mfg.


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[Glen]

Might be a good idea for Matt to reintroduce himself as most members here do not know him. And since he just opened his shop, no one is familiar with it.

 

[Maui]

Maui:

The Vette people can sell a system for much less because the market is greater, much greater. When AMG first produced headers back in the 80's they were.... $4000, THEN.... very low volume, Basically made to order and like any custom built item it's more expensive.

Ron

I agree but once the jigs are made it is cookie cutter.

Based on the tiny hp gains in the aftermarket Merc system, it appears the stock systems work pretty well. As for this thread and the OP, if he can build a system and sell it for $2k with real results in the 30 hp range, I'd be a player.

 

[Glen]

JC,
For the muffler tips, I'd like to see stock-like turn down pipes in marginally larger tubing. Brushed stainless, not polished.

 

[gerryvz]

Maui, you really can't compare the American muscle car aftermarket with the Mercedes aftermarket. Just like you can't compare the Mercedes aftermarket with the BMW, Audi or Volkswagen aftermarket.

You see, very very few Mercedes owners (as a percentage of ownership) mod their cars, compared to US muscle, BMW, Audi of VW peeps. There is much more of a culture of modding with those marques than with Benz. Trust me, I grew up modding water-cooled VWs back in the 1980s with firms like Techtonics Tuning and Neuspeed were pre-eminent. The modding market for VWs has grown significantly since then, but it is infinitely larger than the MB mod market.

How many legitimate tuning parts firms are out there for MB (outside of the large tuners like RENNtech, Brabus, Carlsson, Kleeman, Vaeth, etc.)?

We had BergWerks 10 years ago....they made it about 2 years, with quality products, before they died.

We currently have Feind Motorsports, but I don't think they've made the full transition to a full-time business with dedicated 100% employees.

It's difficult for me to think of any other honest-to-goodness suppliers of self-developed MB tuning parts (and I'm not talking about sellers of wooden shift knobs and chrome license plate frames).

Every other one of the marques above has at least several firms who supply self-made performance parts, sometimes expensive and sometimes decently priced.

Cheers,
Gerry


P.S. My bottom line on this exhaust exercise, is that if it doesn't provide at least 30 confirmed, dyno-tested horsepower, and is not a direct bolt-on, it won't sell. Even then, at $2K the market is going to be VERY limited, although I would expect that 10 systems could sell to members on this site.

The before-and-after dyno results are going to speak for themselves, and I think it's going to be extraordinarily difficult to extract more than 5-10 HP above the stock system. Many Bothans died people have tried to bring us this information.

[youtube]CQeabed9N9M[/youtube]

 

[2phast]

I am quite happy with the exhaust on my car. I use a Maganflow two into one high flow cat (actually meant for the 5.0l Mustang) and 3" SS pipe all the way back to a single Magnaflow muffler. Quiet at idle and during normal driving. No drone and passes emissions with flying colors.

[youtube]6bNK5jai6X8[/youtube]

 

[doolar]

This is mine - Ferrita stainless with one race cat, built for the car at the Ferrita plant in Sweden. http://www.ferrita.com/en/

[video=youtube_share;ZvdJcC0EpZU]http://youtu.be/ZvdJcC0EpZU[/video]

Very happy with this, had it for two years now. Cost was cheaper than a Mercedes original system, and probably a lot lighter. And the sound is way way better without being intrusive unless you floor it.

 

[Germanautoservice]

Its too bad I don't have a 500e here on site, we could do the exhaust and strap it to the dyno. I built exhaust for my e420/500 swap with a custom y pipe, 2.5 s.s mandrel bent magnaflow res and magnaflow muffler to a nice tip just like 2phast and its great while driving and doesn't show its face until you really get down on it. I didn't do a baseline before or after so I cant document but in the butt dyno it made a huge difference in low and mid range power. Anyone wanna drive down and do some exhaust and play on the dyno?

 

[gsxr]

IF there was good dyno proven gains the buyers would come.

Agree 100%. But please, the before & after dyno graphs need to be with NO OTHER CHANGES, just the exhaust. Also, the "before" runs with stock cats need to be within established norms... comparing to plugged stock cats would show big gains which are not realistic.

Amg e60 uses a radically redesigned front pipe into the cat. It's stepped not a single size pipe going down.

I do not believe this is correct, at least not for the W124 E60 AMG. The E60 has the same front pipe+cats as the 400E and 500E. I've seen dyno graphs from 6.0L cars with full headers and custom front exhaust and there was MAYBE about 10hp gain, at most, compared to the bone-stock full exhaust system.

Please share some feed back on the topic and also experiences with Remus, Mec, rentech units.

I've got a Remus muffler on my car, it sounds nice, but it's also heavier than stock. It's a bolt-on, which is nice. I have a full custom RENNtech exhaust on a W210 E60 and it's borderline noisy inside the car, and not in a good way. I don't think they did enough homework on reducing in-car resonance at part throttle.

 

[Germanautoservice]

I agree with dave, no changes done and before and after. But the difference between me doing it and buying a 2000.00 pre fab exhaust is this..mine only cost 1000.00 to 1100. and I know I can gain hp doing it. But dammit I don't have a 500e here to prove it! lol ...even more...

 

[gsxr]

Pat, you could do it on the 500TE... it wouldn't be identical, but it would be close enough!

BTW - the reason I am so skeptical is because I've done some testing with cat delete, Y-pipes, muffler delete, etc and have never seen any measurable gain at either dyno or dragstrip. And pretty much everyone else who has attempted exhaust mods on the 500E have either not shown results on the dyno, or just stopped posting. In the 9+ years since I've owned an E500E, I've never seen anyone post "hey, I did XXX to my exhaust, gained YY power, and here are the dyno charts." Butt dynos are notoriously unreliable, and it's extremely difficult to measure part-throttle power. At WOT, the gains just aren't there.

There have been opposite results though... back on the 500Ecastasy board, someone had a megabuck custom header system built (over $10k, IIRC). Photos are here. Power gains were nil, it may have even lost power. They tried fiddling with the LH EPROM code and that didn't help. They theorized that since the timing map is not adjustable (to increase advance), that was the reason for the lack of power gains. At any rate, that system was pulled off the car and put up for sale. I don't recall what happened to it.

It seems there is a better possibility for power gains via intake modifications and/or custom cams. I'd be quite happy to be proven wrong though. 20hp gain from exhaust would be awesome.

 

[2phast]

Pat, you could do it on the 500TE... it wouldn't be identical, but it would be close enough!

BTW - the reason I am so skeptical is because I've done some testing with cat delete, Y-pipes, muffler delete, etc and have never seen any measurable gain at either dyno or dragstrip. And pretty much everyone else who has attempted exhaust mods on the 500E have either not shown results on the dyno, or just stopped posting. In the 9+ years since I've owned an E500E, I've never seen anyone post "hey, I did XXX to my exhaust, gained YY power, and here are the dyno charts." Butt dynos are notoriously unreliable, and it's extremely difficult to measure part-throttle power. At WOT, the gains just aren't there.

There have been opposite results though... back on the 500Ecastasy board, someone had a megabuck custom header system built (over $10k, IIRC). Photos are here. Power gains were nil, it may have even lost power. They tried fiddling with the LH EPROM code and that didn't help. They theorized that since the timing map is not adjustable (to increase advance), that was the reason for the lack of power gains. At any rate, that system was pulled off the car and put up for sale. I don't recall what happened to it.

It seems there is a better possibility for power gains via intake modifications and/or custom cams. I'd be quite happy to be proven wrong though. 20hp gain from exhaust would be awesome.

Have to agree with Dave here. My before/after dyno's showed no increase worth mentioning. The 92 ecu vs. the 93 I originally had in my car was good for 10 rwhp (yes I know its rated only for 7 additional hp).

The EBay ECU chip in my 93 ecu before/after dyno showed no improvements.

K&N filters before/after, also showed no improvement.

 

[Germanautoservice]

Have to agree with Dave here. My before/after dyno's showed no increase worth mentioning. The 92 ecu vs. the 93 I originally had in my car was good for 10 rwhp (yes I know its rated only for 7 additional hp).

The EBay ECU chip in my 93 ecu before/after dyno showed no improvements.

K&N filters before/after, also showed no improvement.

I do agree with everything said, I do.... But I do believe there are gains to be had with proper exhaust. I do plan on doing some exhaust revision to the 500te, we know the base horsepower at this point, I am very confident that I can gain 15 hp and 20 foot pounds for a very reasonable price with quality components. I know a lot of people have played with exhaust but.... I have proven results on many other cars, before on the dyno and after on the dyno with new exhaust maintaining a car that is able to be driven everyday and not offend anyone. I'll take the challenge..... Going to be a long drive for some people to mn to have exhaust done...

 

[gerryvz]

Many many people have tried to get HP gains through exhaust mods, and Dave is 100% correct ... over the past 10 years, no one ... and I mean NO ONE ... has succeeded in getting measurable gains, at any price.

Anything is possible, but I fear it may be cost-prohibitive. Particularly when I got +100 HP by installing nitrous-oxide, custom engineered for the E500E, for $2K. In the last 10 years, no one has ever come close to beating that bang for the buck.

What usually happens with these "performance" projects, is that someone shows up, all spanky and eager-eyed, with lots of lofty goals and predictions. After a period of time, they just sort of stop posting and drift off into the ether. We've seen more than a few folks like this.....

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Stevester 500E]

5thcal, test the waters on a six speed manual tranny conversion, I'd be in on that project. Not to sure about the exhaust.

 

[Germanautoservice]

Many many people have tried to get HP gains through exhaust mods, and Dave is 100% correct ... over the past 10 years, no one ... and I mean NO ONE ... has succeeded in getting measurable gains, at any price.

Anything is possible, but I fear it may be cost-prohibitive. Particularly when I got +100 HP by installing nitrous-oxide, custom engineered for the E500E, for $2K. In the last 10 years, no one has ever come close to beating that bang for the buck.

What usually happens with these "performance" projects, is that someone shows up, all spanky and eager-eyed, with lots of lofty goals and predictions. After a period of time, they just sort of stop posting and drift off into the ether. We've seen more than a few folks like this.....

Cheers,
Gerry

i have lofty goals, what your saying is I can't just climb into the ring with Ali because I think I can box....well fortunately for me I know I can box. I showed up on the other thread with a 500e wagon....a project that I haven't seen successfully completed to this day . Other than a rare few overseas. None in the states.....I hear people want to do the v8 but 100% of the time go back the the 3.6 .....

i have a fully equipped shop with a dyno in house. I guess the 11 year is going to see some change....

 

[gerryvz]

i have lofty goals, what your saying is I can't just climb into the ring with Ali because I think I can box....well fortunately for me I know I can box. I showed up on the other thread with a 500e wagon....a project that I haven't seen successfully completed to this day . Other than a rare few overseas. None in the states.....I hear people want to do the v8 but 100% of the time go back the the 3.6 .....

i have a fully equipped shop with a dyno in house. I guess the 11 year is going to see some change....

No need to be defensive ..... I wasn't referring to you ... rather to the exhaust project, which is what this thread is all about.

That said, there is another project going on here, as well: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/sho...ner-introduction-and-restoration-project-500E

We have had plenty of folks, (Talbir in England and LiquidIron in Germany come to mind, and yes I have met both of them personally and have seen their shops and cars) who have faded away after attempting very very ambitious projects.

But my comments were specifically referring to the exhaust project, not yours. If I was skeptical of yours, I'd have chimed in on YOUR thread. However, please notice that I have not chimed in, because I thinkyou've shown you are capable.

 

[samiam44]

Interesting.

I can provide plans for the renntech muffler. It is an easy design to make. Rolling and flagging is easy. If there was interest, I can CBC cut the ends. Lots of welder time is required.

M

 

[Germanautoservice]

No need to be defensive ..... I wasn't referring to you ... rather to the exhaust project, which is what this thread is all about.

That said, there is another project going on here, as well: http://www.500eboard.com/forums/sho...ner-introduction-and-restoration-project-500E

We have had plenty of folks, (Talbir in England and LiquidIron in Germany come to mind, and yes I have met both of them personally and have seen their shops and cars) who have faded away after attempting very very ambitious projects.

But my comments were specifically referring to the exhaust project, not yours. If I was skeptical of yours, I'd have chimed in on YOUR thread. However, please notice that I have not chimed in, because I thinkyou've shown you are capable.

You will get to know me, I love doing things that can't be done. There is always a way, I tell my employees the same thing, my shop lives by the 6 p's......Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.
So if I came off defensive I apologize , I'm a pretty passionate about the Mercedes and new original omg hard projects.

 

[gerryvz]

Like I said, no comments from me whatsoever on your thread. Quite a few from me on 036/199's thread, and on this thread.

There's a reason for that. Enjoying your posts !! Keep 'em up.

 

[modzona]

If the exhaust can be shipped over seas im interested in one for my E420.
Not for the HP gain. But because mine exhaust is rusted away. And now i only have a straight pipe from the cats. By the last owner, how chopped the original fasteners.:x So i need a new factory cats to mount factory mufflers. Or a lot of welding on the half rusted original cats.
And just new factory mufflers is aprox 1200$ here in morepay.

 

[gsxr]

I do agree with everything said, I do.... But I do believe there are gains to be had with proper exhaust. I do plan on doing some exhaust revision to the 500te, we know the base horsepower at this point, I am very confident that I can gain 15 hp and 20 foot pounds for a very reasonable price with quality components. I know a lot of people have played with exhaust but.... I have proven results on many other cars, before on the dyno and after on the dyno with new exhaust maintaining a car that is able to be driven everyday and not offend anyone. I'll take the challenge..... Going to be a long drive for some people to mn to have exhaust done...

Pat, I'm looking forward to see what you can do! Just curious, have you ever done any serious tweaking on other M119's with LH injection? I think that is the primary obstacle. Later cars with ME can have the timing+fuel remapped, but we're a bit more limited with this older stuff. 15hp gain on a 5.0 would be very impressive, IMO.

 

[Stevester 500E]

My after market Californa legal cats look just fine. I would be interested in a semi-throaty cat back, but I am not sure that there will be enough extra horses for the endevor to be worth it.perhaps after the math is done we will know more.

 

[5thscaleracer]

So much info this is helpful.




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[5thscaleracer]

5thcal, test the waters on a six speed manual tranny conversion, I'd be in on that project. Not to sure about the exhaust.

Yes Matt @ leistung Autohaus and I were discussing this conversion.

At the moment we are trying to determine transmissions that are readily available and CNC the proper components to make it work. But just to be warned we have budgeted 10k for this conversion project not including the trans!

But this is something that will be worked on in 2014.

We have a lot of projects to finish up, 16v goodies are almost done and we are going to play with the 500e.


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[szvook]

Properly designed x-pipes alone have been already proven (tested by Audi, Maganflow and Car Craft Magazine) to yield anywhere from 2-4hp. The placement of the x-pipe is also quite important to achieve the measured gains.

I'm quite happy with my current 3" SS cat-back dual exhaust with an x-pipe and free-flowing dual mufflers, and like the low-end exhaust note I get - but if an exhaust can be done to show gains of at least 15hp and have a great note on top, I just might be interested in one.

[video=youtube;Hwid2vRMxTc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hwid2vRMxTc[/video]

 

[Germanautoservice]

Pat, I'm looking forward to see what you can do! Just curious, have you ever done any serious tweaking on other M119's with LH injection? I think that is the primary obstacle. Later cars with ME can have the timing+fuel remapped, but we're a bit more limited with this older stuff. 15hp gain on a 5.0 would be very impressive, IMO.

i currently have a person working on the hex code , I am able to manipulate the ezl to give me 5 variations of timing. it's preset values but still it's better than nothing.
I will be doing some sleeve work to the block in the picture,so timing and fuel maps are going to be important.
because I'm going to do a spun cast iron sleeve, pistons will be no problem to make or adapt to the current application. I have played with LH control but now I think with diving into it head first and between all of us using what we know I think we can make some real stuff happen. I have a full machine shop , v30 cnc, valve grinding, line boring ect ect ect. I think we as a group can really make things happen. So with that being said who's in?

 

[borring]

Same here, If the exhaust can be shipped over seas then I'm also interested, my exhaust is also rusted away.

 

[400Eric]

Issues with exhaust
Flow and turbulence every time there is a flange, seam, or union of any type there is a disruption of flow typically this will cause the exhaust gas to tumble when you don't want. What this means is exhaust gasses slow down and start to create back pressure.

This one paragraph shows that this fellow knows more than just a little bit about what he speaks.

Here is a 16v exhaust so you have an idea of what type if work will be produced
View attachment 23566View attachment 23567View attachment 23568

The third picture here shows that he also practices what he preaches. Now compare that work to the work shown in the pictures that Dave linked. Look at all of those seams, unions, sudden neck-ups and neck-downs, and you will begin to get an idea as to why the one that Dave linked didn't perform as hoped for. Just a comparison between the O.P.'s Y pipe and the Y in Dave's link speaks volumes. That kind of construction is probably why a lot of other exhaust systems don't perform up to expectations either.

The O.P. should be ENCOURAGED, not discouraged, how else are we ever going to get anybody to do stuff for these cars?

O.P., whatever 500E/E500 you use as your "dyno mule", make damn sure it is equipped with a 92 ECU! It's WOT fuel enrichment will allow you to see the full potential of your exhaust system. (Just make sure that BOTH your "before" and "after" tests are done with said ECU!) My intake and exhaust mods didn't show me squat until I added a 92 ECU to the equation. I suspect that this is yet another reason why a lot of folks don't see any gain from their new exhaust systems. This is also probably why a lot of folks who's cars are already modded are seeing way more than the expected 7hp gain when they get a 92 ECU! Also allow at least a week of adaptation before you stick the car back on the dyno with it's new exhaust system! Others may tell you that you don't need it, but trust me, you do! Just don't take any chances and give it that week! It won't cost you anything and it will benefit you! Not heeding this advice may be yet another reason why folks don't see any gain from their mods when they test them back to back on the dyno. (Or don't see much of a gain.)

2phast's 10hp gain at the wheels with the 92 ECU swap is all the more remarkable when you consider the fact that his 10hp gain at the wheels is more like 12 at the flywheel! (That 7hp difference between 92 and 93 was at the flywheel!) I say that's his other mods finally paying off because of the added fuel!

Yes, there needs to be at least a 20hp gain, and more importantly, at least a 20 ft pounds increase in torque, but it IS possible because the stock system DOES leave a lot to be desired.

It also needs to be priced at no more than $1,500! Seriously! Selling some kits at $1,500 is better than selling NONE at $2,000. O.P., you have already received sufficient feedback on this one. Heed it.

The N2O group buy comparison may not be valid here because a lot of folks are (unjustifiably) scared of N2O. But it is also still valid to point out that N2O gives at least 100hp for $2,000, Nobody is going to be able to justify spending $2,000 for 20 or 30 hp. Nobody. Not even the N2O haters.

Another thing folks here should consider is the fact that these cars are already of the age where some of them have already received exhaust system repairs and some of those have received repairs that were of less than stellar quality. So that exhaust system that you have on that car right now may very well be costing you MORE hp than the stock system does. Just something to think about.

Let's have a dyno shootout between the O.P.'s system and GermanAutoService's system!

I'm not a buyer at any price, I weld up my own. I just wanted to post my 2 cents worth for the good of the membership. (TBH, this is more like a buck's worth!)

I would however, be VERY interested in the results of the EZL and LH experiments....... Maybe another thread on that topic is in order, so that we can explore that subject further.

Regards,
Eric

 

[5thscaleracer]

This one paragraph shows that this fellow knows more than just a little bit about what he speaks.



The third picture here shows that he also practices what he preaches. Now compare that work to the work shown in the pictures that Dave linked. Look at all of those seams, unions, sudden neck-ups and neck-downs, and you will begin to get an idea as to why the one that Dave linked didn't perform as hoped for. That kind of construction is probably why a lot of other exhaust systems don't perform up to expectations either.

The O.P. should be ENCOURAGED, not discouraged, how else are we going to get anybody to do stuff for these cars?

Yes, there needs to be at least a 20hp gain, and more importantly, at least a 20 ft pounds increase in torque, but it IS possible because the stock system DOES leave a lot to be desired.

It also needs to be priced at no more than $1,500! Selling some kits at $1,500 is better than selling NONE a $2,000. O.P., you have already received sufficient feedback already on this one. Heed it.

The N2O group buy comparison may not be valid here because a lot of folks are (unjustifiably) scared of N2O. But it also still valid to point out that N2O gives at least 100hp for $2,000, Nobody is going to be able to justify spending $2,000 for 20 or 30 hp. Nobody. Not even the N2O haters.

I'm not a buyer at any price, I weld up my own. I just wanted to post my 2 cents worth for the good of the membership.

I would however, be VERY interested in the results of the EZL and LH experiments.......

Regards,
Eric

There are several tricks which can be applied to keep costs down mainly weld sequences. On less critical areas mig will be applied. But on high critical areas we will need to use tig.

Believe it or not to properly mig a joint takes 2-3min and tig takes 8-10 min. And since everything gets billed out based on time we should be able to cut some corners.

$1500.00 might be doable but I would not know until the first one is bent up and made.

So to recap criteria request:
-$1500.00 target
-shoot for 30hp (I think there is room to gain more torque than hp)
-OE style turndown tips
-more refined tone (not that deep)
- option to tie into factory cats (modification to factory cat might be required)
-dyno numbers


Keep sharing info guys in the meantime it's time for me to do some work.

Btw shipping overseas is no problem as long as the cars are LHD and mufflers are routed the same as US spec cars.


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[400Eric]

Please re-read my post as I've added about a dozen things to it since you quoted me. Some of what I added will benefit you greatly.

I'm glad you mentioned torque! You and I are on the same page on this one.

I would suggest that everybody reconsider the stock cat requirement. Again, because of age and miles, a lot of folks' cats are failing now, or have already failed. With new stock cats so absurdedly expensive, and newer, more modern cats doing EVERYTHING better (cleaner, better flowing, less expensive, etc), there is absolutely NO reason to compromise your system for stock cat compatibility. Just call it the price of admission! This will save folks money in the long run!

For those folks concerned about smog inspections, don't worry about it! I live in Calif, and if I ain't worried about it, you don't need to be either! Our smog inspections here are the worst! I know of folks who have moved out of state just to avoid them! But the average smog tech is too lazy and/or too busy to crawl under your car to look at it's cat(s)! And then the rest of them don't know what a stock MB system is supposed to look like anyways.

Now I know that there will be those who post to say that I'm wrong. But I stand by what I said. 99 percent of you have nothing to worry about!

Regards,
Eric

 

[5thscaleracer]

Dave (gsxr): I looked at your website which helped me narrow down my brake upgrade for the 16v. Thank you!

There is an exhaust on your website with tons of pictures I would like to know if you are running this system.
first off... Amazing quality especially with all the welds that's a lot of time spent but there are a lot of high pressure and low pressure changes in each weld. If this is your exhaust would it be possible to take a picture of it now in its current state? What I would like to see are hot spots which are areas of restriction (slow exhaust gas), the beauty of stainless is its ability to change colors based on temp.

but I have to admit who ever built that unit probably came from a motorcycle exhaust building background.

also I count 7 chambers (low pressure section where turbulence is created). Mainly these are the mufflers? 4 cats, one center, and two at the rear? There should be a huge color change before each chamber and after.

i would greatly appreciate it if you can supply updated pictures of this exhaus.

thanks
JC

 

[gsxr]

JC, no, all my cars are running stock catalysts with either stock resonators/mufflers, or Y-pipe/Remus, or some combination of the above. No custom exhaust or headers. The photos posted were of someone else's setup. I think the one you are referring to is the same one I mentioned which ended up with no measurable power gain.

Eric, my dyno testing showed the same results as Rik. 9-10rwhp gain with the 92 LH, est +12hp at the crank. It is not a mystery why this is more than the rated +7, the difference is because of all the other changes done to the 93-up motors, detailed here. The loss of WOT enrichment cost more than 7hp but MB gained some back (maybe +5hp?) with the lighter moving components.