M119 Inlet Manifold- Real Serious Modifications or Ditch it completely for an 8 x T/B custom set-up

[HOFF]

I have been thinking/measuring and playing with a spare set of 1997 980 manifolds to see what idea's /mods or a complete new system, seeming my engine is going to be custom tuned running a Haltech 2000 ECU and the original MB T/body is going so i can revert back to custom T/B with a cable system.

I know Tim in NZ with his race car - SEC WB coupe fitted with a M119.960 6.3litre (m117 crank/rods & custom forged pistons) ditched the manifolds.
He cut up his upper manifold and fabricated it into a base plate (retaining the water jackets) to fit up a 4 x T/B system with great results
This engine through testing and evolving ended up with the 600hp target he was aiming for.
He ended up pulling the engine and fitting it to a 190e that he was developing as a full blown Evo replica from ground up shell (that is still not completed as his Euro Servicing workshop struck tough times and the racing was put on the backburner)

Anyway without repeating myself please click on this link R129 link (page 75)
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/r129-sl-class/1421431-m119-sl-performance-modifications-75.html
and tell me what you think of the idea of an 8 x t/b custom mod (similar the the BMW S65 V8 engine)
Cheers

 

[jnes]

Well, I'm also played about the idea of installing ITB:s for my car.. So, if you are planning to build for sale custom intake manifolds with individual throttle bodies I'm really interested to see the results. Only thing that I'm a bit worried about when installing a custom engine management how you can keep the all features which current engine management has. Cruise control, ASR etc.. Probably it may be possible.

 

[HOFF]

Sorry i maybe forgot to mention i am not a business, but a personal enthuisiast with two W126 SEC coupes who likes to go beyond the norm of just owning a nice coupe.
I have two M119 engines and heading down the path of doing an M119.980 & 722.6 trans swap into my white coupe
This means completely ditching ASR/cruise control and running the engine with a Haltech 2000 (which i have) and running the trans stand alone with a PCM 2000 (which i have)

So because i don't have all the MB software out of the wreck the engine trans came from my project is a complete custom tuned engine on the dyno by a reputable race tuner and Haltech Agent who is local to me.
The PCM 2000 for the trans is a complete independent system designed to control the 722.6 trans to allow you to customise the shifts yourself via your own laptop on the run at any time. Including programming it for your own diff ratio and rolling diameter tyres in the base set-up. From there you then can customise the auto to suit your own driving style.

The other option i now have is to keep the M119.980 intake system (FBW throttle with cruise control / ASR - note i don't have ASR in my W126 coupe) and running that T/B with a newly released Haltech Elite ECU that can handle FBW throttle system. But that defeats the purpose of trying something different with the whole intake manifold set-up on the M119

Hope that make sense to you

 

[HOFF]

Of interest-
Just to show the 4 x T/B set-up that Tim in NZ modded up from a cut down M119.960 inlet manifold on his 960 bored out engine
Here is the short dyno as it was getting some tuning sorted
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDClzSS1PLY
Here is Tims car on the track with his 4 x t/b M119 5litre stock engine -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSZMpvjgaRc

This was before he rebuilt a 2nd engine and went all out with serious mods on that turning it into a 6.3 litre version
102mm bore
560 crank & rods
Wiseco custom forged pistons
Fully ported heads -flowed @ 500 thou lift = 750hp
Block line bored and grooving behind all the main bearings and drilling the top bearings to increase oil flow
Custom exhaust he built himself
Dyno tune shows up it needs bigger injectors to keep up fuel supply
But even with injector issues made good power and a big juicy torque curve
566.5 nm @ 5500 rpm and 365.8kw at the rear wheels at 6700 and keeps making power till 7500 where the injectors just cant keep up
More power to come - The tuner calculates to around 600hp at the engine (which he eventually gets after more tuning later)

 

[HOFF]

Then after he decided to pulled the engine from the SEC and build a serious lightweight track car based on an Evo 190e things really started to hot up with the mods

 

[Ascension]

So much for all the BS bout how there was no real advantage in headers and intake mods to these engines! Expensive as heck to pull off but effective and bout time we see this!

 

[Jackasic]

we have looked at ITBs and CF intakes, but I just now getting to the point where people are buying cams. I'll probably make up a 6.0 m117 and Jenvey ITB at some point for my own fun and giggles.

 

[HOFF]

I have many pics of this build and here is a few more close-ups of the dry sumped engine

If you want more very detailed pics of the car body build itself i have many - just mention here if you want to see more pics added

 

[Ascension]

That's got to be one of the wildest set of headers I have ever seen! What a snake pit!

 

[jhodg5ck]

I'm very interested in working with on the ITB setup. My thoughts were to create the adapters out of high density foam, have the scanned and then printed in something Suitable.. If need be, I imagine they could be printed on an individual basis so as to make it possible to print on a lot Smaller machine...

I'd love to do a setup like this on the track car...

jono

 

[jhodg5ck]

Don't forget on Tim's car, he's got SO much cam he had to clearance the head to make room for the lobes...and M119's Do Love some more bump on their sticks...;-)

jono

 

[HOFF]

It is very clear with his own development work the M119 likes to breath and responds very well accordingly once free of the factory ECU and run by a tuneable aftermarket ECU
Haltech's brand new released "Elite" ECU would be a perfect match of you wanted to retain a FBW system in lieu of cable

If anyone could come up with a nice bolt-on inlet system it would be you Jono for sure as you have the resources and contacts for frabrication - please explore

 

[jhodg5ck]

I see this setup is a Goodly bit less expensive down on your side of the world:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Chevy-LS...Manifold-System-Complete-Satin-/311037348717?

Might you be willing to see what shipping it to the US of A might run...if you would be willing to have it shipped to your place etc, etc...

Let me know, jono@blueridgemb.com

TY Sir

jono

 

[Ascension]

I have been thinking/measuring and playing with a spare set of 1997 980 manifolds to see what idea's /mods or a complete new system, seeming my engine is going to be custom tuned running a Haltech 2000 ECU and the original MB T/body is going so i can revert back to custom T/B with a cable system.

I know Tim in NZ with his race car - SEC WB coupe fitted with a M119.960 6.3litre (m117 crank/rods & custom forged pistons) ditched the manifolds.
He cut up his upper manifold and fabricated it into a base plate (retaining the water jackets) to fit up a 4 x T/B system with great results
This engine through testing and evolving ended up with the 600hp target he was aiming for.
He ended up pulling the engine and fitting it to a 190e that he was developing as a full blown Evo replica from ground up shell (that is still not completed as his Euro Servicing workshop struck tough times and the racing was put on the backburner)

Anyway without repeating myself please click on this link R129 link (page 75)
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/r129-sl-class/1421431-m119-sl-performance-modifications-75.html
and tell me what you think of the idea of an 8 x t/b custom mod (similar the the BMW S65 V8 engine)
Cheers

Might want to take a hard look at the Volvo Polestar V8 intake design as they got 650 out of a NA 4.9--->
[video=youtube;vQ3jXFJMVrc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ3jXFJMVrc[/video]
This thing is one bad bad little DOHC V8!!

 

[HOFF]

Yes there is just something real unique about having a naturally aspirated 8 x individual Throttle Body well sorted engine
The sound is just awesome!!! and it appears throttle response is instantaneous with dead equal filling of all cylinders at any revs
Like the Volvo engine above - same applies to the BMW S65 and the Ford Windsor 440 (and Chevi LS engines love em too)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asukSowAC40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRQfhGoTJm8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtqYw-inhv0

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWlmbrLJ1-o
[/URL]

 

[samiam44]

It would seem that the biggest benefit is you are going to a shorter tube intake design over a long tube. The curved down approach of the factory works for space, but all out performance the weight of the air in the tube matters. So you want downward path.
I would imagine going to either side you can get a straighter path and flow modeling existing versus a new path would not be overly hard. But it would take some time to model. Manufacturing is pretty easy in CF/epoxy or even cnc. CNC on space available can be had for ~ $40-50/hr. So the right bank tubes go up to the left bank, and left side the other way. Then do 2 manifold feeds which Y together and mount your factory actuator. Create a splice cable to make up the new distance. Anyone volunteering in a solidworks, catia model, or stepfile. I've got flow software to evaluate factory versus mod on flow. Model the head w valve open at a set lift too.

Look at the M119 6.0 LM car. Those were 630 hp which looks like individual short tube port injection. The challenge is not peak power for most of us(Jono's rat rod), but getting the most power with the least negative losses. 630 hp @8500 rpm does me no good trying to cruise @ 2500 rpm on the highway and get 20 mpg.


Michael

 

[gsxr]

The challenge is not peak power for most of us(Jono's rat rod), but getting the most power with the least negative losses. 630 hp @8500 rpm does me no good trying to cruise @ 2500 rpm on the highway and get 20 mpg.

Plus eleventybillion. ^^^

 

[Klink]

Plus eleventybillion. ^^^

and

 

[Ron500E]

Torque wins over HP on the street any day of the week.

R

 

[gsxr]

It's a tough sell spending probably $20k-$30k on modifying an M119 to make 600hp, when you can make 750-800hp from the supercharged M113 for probably one-third the cost. Assuming we are still discussing track-only toys here and not street-driven cars that need to do things like be reliable and idle at 500rpm in gear, anyway.

 

[jhodg5ck]

torque..? make 6L...

And +1 with what dave said, the CHEAP and Reliable power that can be had these days makes modding these more of a novelty then anything else. For the track car, it's just Fun projects to see what happens.. The car will never win races, but we can @ least try to surprise some people along the way!

for the street car, I doubt i'll be doing ITB's...I will likely cap it @ the 6L bottom end from the white e420 renntech 6.0 coupled w/ my factory E60 heads and cams....that will make for a Very nice driver on the street. Now weather or not that will be done in time for the 2015 meet this spring, eh...maybe, maybe not

jono

 

[HOFF]

Ok -i am only throwing open idea's and gathering thoughts/feedback and knowledge to try and work out what path i will choose for my little project
My white 1987 Euro SEC with a high comp 5ltre / tri-y's etc is a nice weekend street car.
This is the coupe i am looking to do the M119 conversion with the 722.6 trans bolted up and it would be just a fun sunday street driver - with something different about it
It is very tempting with a blank canvas - to be custom tuned M119 free of the factory ECU to do some intake/exhaust exploring whilst i have the chance before any tuning commences

You guys are far more knowledgeable on the M119 engine than i am - hence me coming to you all for advice on mods
Sure i could tear down the M119.960 engine and blow a heap of cash on taking it out to 100mm and custom pistons etc for a 6ltr result as Jono mentions

Or use the M119.980 (with an SL500 front sump) as it is a well running sweet engine as it is - and just do some intake and exhaust mods before its tuned

When Tim in NZ initially with his first M119 (un-opened) 5ltr engine just introduced the 4 x T/B set-up from a cut-down upper M119 manifold and improvement on the stock exhaust and tuned with the Lynx ECU - he resulted in achieving a nice street friendly 430hp and more torque so it can be done without sacrificing street duties.

Surely this lower chamber arrangement can be improved on for better flow
The lower chamber design with incoming air through the 76.5mm centre mount opening the T/B mounts to - hits the flat bottom of the chamber after just 70mm of travel causing incoming airstream to have to sharply change direction
Perhaps there is a scientific reason for the design for emissions reasons at the lower rev range - but certainly not for performance velocity airflow at any higher revs past idle in my books.
Obviously designed to bounce the incoming airstream back in all directions for even distribution out to all air intake runners - but boy i would dearly love to see that air-charge in viewing action set up in a flow simulator
At higher revs there must be very disturbing turbulence
Any technical input on this design available at all from MB archives?

The M119.980 upper intake manifold is a nice piece of well crafted long runner work by the way
My spare set in the pics attached was my plan to look at what various options are to mod it after talking to you guys first

 

[Klink]

Surely this lower chamber arrangement can be improved on for better flow
The lower chamber design with incoming air through the 76.5mm centre mount opening the T/B mounts to - hits the flat bottom of the chamber after just 70mm of travel causing incoming airstream to have to sharply change direction
Perhaps there is a scientific reason for the design for emissions reasons at the lower rev range - but certainly not for performance velocity airflow at any higher revs past idle in my books.
Obviously designed to bounce the incoming airstream back in all directions for even distribution out to all air intake runners - but boy i would dearly love to see that air-charge in viewing action set up in a flow simulator
At higher revs there must be very disturbing turbulence
Any technical input on this design available at all from MB archives?

I'm sure that factory considerations for the manifolds include noise abatement, and efficient mixing and distribution of the recirculated exhaust gas at lower loads, both considerations not likely to be high on your priority list...

I have never seen an in-depth description of the manifold functions published anywhere, just extremely generic "salesey" statements like "optimizes torque production"...

 

[Klink]

Might want to take a hard look at the Volvo Polestar V8 intake design as they got 650 out of a NA 4.9--->
[video=youtube;vQ3jXFJMVrc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQ3jXFJMVrc[/video]
This thing is one bad bad little DOHC V8!!

Sweet engine, Richard. But why did they name it after a stripper?

 

[Ascension]

Torque wins over HP on the street any day of the week.

R

Yep ask all those folk who saw the back bumper disappear into the distance when they challenged my round port Pontiacs off a red light LOL.
Hard to beat 600 + ft lbs at 2500 RPM when you can plant it!

 

[samiam44]

Hoff,

To me, the MB engineers were trying to get the smallest package w long tube intake. That's why the lower plenum design and you are stuck with the geomtry. I would add, that these are EGR cars, the turbulent smash of air is at the EGR tube location- so it would provide good mixing of the exhaust gases.
I bet most of his power improvement was with the Lynx ECU tuning.. These old systems are limited.


Michael

 

[Ascension]

Sweet engine, Richard. But why did they name it after a stripper?

Polestar is the Volvo racing group that now is beginning to take on a role for building performace Volvo street cars very similar to what AMG did with MB.
[video=youtube;qdQlk_LJPbA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdQlk_LJPbA[/video]
BTW notice how it sounds "different"? 60 degree V8 designed by Yamaha! The street version made 300hp in some of the S80's with 4.0 liters and it's IMO one of the most silky smooth and refined DOHC V8's of all time.

 

[gerryvz]

This is an MB discussion board, not a VOLVO discussion board.

Let's please keep the discussion to MBs / M119s.

THanks.

 

[HOFF]

Gerry what are your thoughts on that lower plenum design
Seeming i won't be worrying about EGR (i hate them as they carbon up all the intake surfaces and make a mess of things) and that will be a delete for sure
I will be reverting to a manual (cable) operated T/B i believe and that leaves my options open to what aftermarket T/B to choose and hole opening size - if it needs to be bigger without sacrificing any lower end torque
What about if a divider and some re-shaping/fabricating of the plenum floor was done to try and create a more friendly pathway for the incoming air
Or cut the middle bottom section of it off and come up with a better design to feed to each side?
just thinking from a performance perspective here without re-inventing the wheel but achievable with some not so hard fabrication work - even if done in a resin modelling to get the shape
Thoughts!!!

 

[gerryvz]

No thoughts, unfortunately.
I'll leave it to the experts here.

 

[J-Sauce]

I think the easiest way to get meaningful results without implementing ITBs would be to reshape the lower manifold so each runner is separate, then build an even higher tiered plenum where the existing air box is. The eta would have to be moved in front of the engine and a single air filter element mounted remotely. Does that sound feasible?

 

[Jackasic]

This is an MB discussion board, not a VOLVO discussion board.

Let's please keep the discussion to MBs / M119s.

THanks.

The ex drove a S60, so i'll second that

 

[HOFF]

ok point taken - will take off line and discuss direct with Jono, GSXR & Brandon
I have also emailed a contact in Europe (Service workshop similar to Jono's) who is heavily into performance mods and has helped me out in the past with mods.

Perhaps it is just a case of converting to an aftermarket Cable T/B and custom downpipes off the 980 headers and decent exhaust set-up and the Haltech dyno tune
(digressing - i am keen to also do a stealth rear remote controlled flap dumpers - to go louder when desired and low noise level for normal cruising duties

Remind me- what is the CFM flow of the standard form - 980 heads
Speedmaster do a very nice precision made billet T/B with 4 x staged butterflys in 1000cfm & 1200cfm for aprox $280 if is was thinking of maintaining good velocity at low revs - streetable but perhaps an enlarged lower plenum inlet opening

Cams is a good idea once i know what is the best option to upgrade to that you guys might recommend as another option ( i do have a spare complete set of 1997 980 heads with cams to muck around with -providing also upgrade cost is reasonably priced considering we are talking 4 cams here

 

[gerryvz]

There's absolutely no issue with this line of discussion - it pertains 100% to the M119 which is entirely in scope for this forum. Volvo-related stuff is NOT in scope for this forum. Just like we don't spend much time talking about Chevy 350s or Ford 351 Clevelands..... just not relevant on a Mercedes forum.

Unfortunately I'm not (personally) much use in this discussion as I'm more the cork-sniffer / keyboard-warrior type. There are a lot of engineers here and folks who have direct experience who can be far more helpful.

 

[HOFF]

Interesting - I came across these pics - anyone know the person who was doing this mod and the outcome?

 

[500AMM]

ok point taken - will take off line and discuss direct with Jono, GSXR & Brandon
I have also emailed a contact in Europe (Service workshop similar to Jono's) who is heavily into performance mods and has helped me out in the past with mods.

Perhaps it is just a case of converting to an aftermarket Cable T/B and custom downpipes off the 980 headers and decent exhaust set-up and the Haltech dyno tune
(digressing - i am keen to also do a stealth rear remote controlled flap dumpers - to go louder when desired and low noise level for normal cruising duties

Remind me- what is the CFM flow of the standard form - 980 heads
Speedmaster do a very nice precision made billet T/B with 4 x staged butterflys in 1000cfm & 1200cfm for aprox $280 if is was thinking of maintaining good velocity at low revs - streetable but perhaps an enlarged lower plenum inlet opening

Cams is a good idea once i know what is the best option to upgrade to that you guys might recommend as another option ( i do have a spare complete set of 1997 980 heads with cams to muck around with -providing also upgrade cost is reasonably priced considering we are talking 4 cams here

Hello Kim,

This is an interesting thread, ambitious, but overall interesting because it is a key factor for tuning the M119. And it goes hand in hand with proper headers and the various questions about what power increase that gives - which is obvious they do, supposed the rest of the aspiration is improved accordingly.

Standalone is definitely the way to go, both for releasing potential power, and not to mention for the safety of the engine! Standalone will split the path for keeping the car in stock condition, and it is not possible to implement partly in combo with the stock ECU due to two complete different technical platforms. About the Haltec Elite, what's your reason for choosing that, have you compared with/considered other systems like Electromotive etc..?

You mentioned flow calcs, what program are you using? I think Michael (samiam44) has something available on that too? I have a manual math. for motorbike engines, but it contains several given factors I don't know the basics behind. And they affects the end results too much to be used for car engines.


Cheers
-a-

 

[HOFF]

I did locate this flow chart but it is not in english!!
The 1000cfm & 1200cfm compact staged billet cable T/B that might work on the existing lower manifold plate - but enlarged hole
I am using a Haltech 2000 ECU because i already have one with the long reach wiring harness (it will handle the Variable Cam Timing)
The newly released Haltech Elite is useful if retaining factory FBW and cruise control & ASR features (cheaper than Motec)
Also some off the shelf compact side draft 8 x throttle body packages to gauge some ideas - but you can buy individual parts in lieu to make up a custom set
Also some M119 upper inlet manifold mods as a base ready to accept fabrication of a different intake system
Yes i do agree that the custom tune is the big factor in this

 

[Jackasic]

if you can get more than 3 people that actually are willing to spend the money. I get the manifolds engineered and made to bolt up to Jenvey TBs. Going to see them next week at PRI.

 

[samiam44]

I'll be happy to run the flow software if you model it.


Michael

 

[J-Sauce]

Ill go on record to say that I'd be willing to spend a pretty penny on an ITB manifold. I'd imagine the whole setup would be over $1000 plus dyno time to get it dialed in.

 

[Glen]

Ill go on record to say that I'd be willing to spend a pretty penny on an ITB manifold. I'd imagine the whole setup would be over $1000 plus dyno time to get it dialed in.

Sadly, I think quadrupling that figure would be closer to reality.

 

[gerryvz]

$1,000? With all the other "hardware" that such a solution will entail, I'd count on several multiples of that, Justin. Not disparaging the discussion in the least (I'm enjoying it and learning a lot), but I agree with Jackasic....the solution sounds fantastic, but I think there will be very few "real" buyers in the end. Particularly with the amount of work that will be required to install everything.

I remember 10 years ago when Bergwerks announced their nitrous system for the M119. Half the board was signed up to buy it. In the end, about 5 people actually bought and installed it. That was only a $1,200 outlay + any labor required.

I'm still waiting to hear more about this miraculous exhaust system that is supposed to be coming. The first post on this was December 1, 2013.

Another GVZ law: Dyno sheets count. If it's not dyno'd, it didn't happen.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gerryvz]

Sadly, I think quadrupling that figure would be closer to reality.

LOL, just posted same thing before seeing your post, Glen !

 

[clarkz71]

Yes, $1K would be to start on a prototype.

I can't see a turn key kit being less the what Glen & Gerry said.

Nitrous is still the best bang for the buck, and much more power then intake/exhaust mods.

 

[J-Sauce]

I was imagining just the manifold, without the throttle bodies. That way people could potentially source their own to suit their needs. I admit though, I'm way way undereducated in these matters. So what do I know?

 

[Ascension]

This is an MB discussion board, not a VOLVO discussion board.

Let's please keep the discussion to MBs / M119s.

THanks.

That particular Volvo V8 engine is quite similar in design in many ways to our M119's much more so than any of the current production 3 valve MB V8's. This is not just a Volvo vs MB thing it's that the M-119 is long out of production and the Volvo V8 engine is being developed and used right now by Polestar for the V8 Supercar series. In particular that basic intake design should be of real interest to any looking at developing a similar set up for the M119. It also shows what both engines should be capable of.

 

[Zuffenhausen]

Have Wilson manifold put one together for you

 

[Jackasic]

we are shooting for $2,500 on a stand alone efi kit for 117s, using stock TB and manifold (4 stock MB coils, wasted spark, fuel rails, wiring harness, and all other parts to make it drop in). Probably add another 2~3k for ITBs, plus the programing to make it work.

 

[Jackasic]

just for reference, wilson will run you 3k for a manifold. These guys are about 4k, much better product: http://www.ozmoengineering.com/products/intake-manifolds

 

[Ascension]

I think the easiest way to get meaningful results without implementing ITBs would be to reshape the lower manifold so each runner is separate, then build an even higher tiered plenum where the existing air box is. The eta would have to be moved in front of the engine and a single air filter element mounted remotely. Does that sound feasible?

It's the solution that most other manifolds use in a engine compartment with a low clearance. One of the big questions I have always had with the current M119 factory design is how heat affects the system. You have the TB and plenum burred so far down in the valley in that cramped compartment it has to quite significantly heat the inlet charge. That also may well be the reason MB ran that fuel cooler through the AC system on these care to combat the vapor lock issues that came from that heat. The manifold on this engine seems upside down to me with it having the plenum on the bottom and that TB below the runners.