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320 CE sometimes stalls when pulling away (and its getting hot)

masinistul

Member
Member
Hello everyone!

First, I want to thank everyone who has shared previous experiences and valuable DIYs on this website. I bought a 1993 320 CE (the European version of the 300 CE with the M104.992 engine) from Nederlands last year. Had a millage of 180k km, body in a good shape, sexy color (bornite metallic), but it was in urgent need of a complete overhaul. The ABS light was on, the engine had oil leaks, the central locks didn't work, the radio didn't work, A/C was dead, and it was displayed for sale for the last 4 years with no buyer crazy enough to take it.

So, with what I've seen and read around here, I was able to repair it? Should I call it `repair`? Let's say `resurrection`, although the engine was running just fine. Anyway, i took the engine out and apart, changed the head gasket and all the timing stuff, all the seals and hoses, belts, pulley, mounts, sensors, sondes - mostly all the worn parts (consumables is a better word?). The harness and the ETA were rebuilt, OVP changed, plugs, coils, wires, transmission out and overhauled too, various covers and bits vapor blasted, some parts powder coated, everything is now shiny and the engine is pouring like a cat.

So everything is fine now, the car drives well, has very good mileage and nice power delivery... but it has two problems.

1. Sometimes after I stop at traffic lights, it idles kinda low. No shaking or something, but looks like it's around 650 rpm. And from time to time, when I accelerate to pull off, it just dies. It's like the rpm first drops when I accelerate, and then if I`m lucky, it goes up. If I`m not, it dies. It's more likely to die if I also turn the steering or do something that makes the rpm drop. This happens especially with the engine warm, or should I say hot? And that brings me to the other problem.

2. Sometimes the water temperature gauge goes above the 100-degree C mark. Not a lot, because I turn on the heating as soon as I see it and it drops under 100 fast, but still. This happens only when I drive in traffic, never on the highway. I replaced everything except the radiator, so I am thinking that's the culprit.

Regarding the stalling, I was thinking maybe it's the MAF sensor. So I tried another one today that I picked from a junkyard. It still dies. Everything else it`s new, I really don't really have other parts that were not replaced (except the ECU, of course, or the speed sensors for the crank and the camshaft). The more obvious explanation could be a vacuum loss, but I sprayed brake cleaner everywhere, and nothing, no sign of ingestion. Oh, and could the throttle linkage be responsible? I know about the microswitch for the idle, it clicks when I release the throttle. But I also know that there were two springs installed on the throttle linkage and when I assembled it back, I could not determine which spring goes where, so I only used one.

So, if you have any suggestions, please throw it to me. I can't find a solution right now.
 
Based on what you are saying it sounds like the idle control circuit is at fault and not ignition or fuel injection. I’m not familiar with the type of throttle body your market uses. Over here we had 2 types of throttle bodies for that engine. One was electronic which only controlled the idle speed and cruise functions and the other fitted to cars with ASR which was electronic drive by wire with the throttle cable back up. Which one do you have or maybe you have a mechanical only with a separate idle control valve? I could give you basic guidance based on that. Also do you have the ability to check for fault codes or access to the Mercedes scan tool? That would also help guide you greatly.
 
My car doesn't have ASR or cruise control. But it still uses an electronic throttle actuator as all M104 HFM engines do. Maybe the missing sping on the throttle linkage could be the problem (as I said, I checked the microswith and it seems to click when I release the throttle pedal)?

I have a scanner, I made it myself. On what port should I check for errors?
 
I would refer you to gxsr’s page on pulling codes. I would imagine pins for diagnostic would be the same between the M119 and the M104 engines. Both ignition and LH would use the idle switch for inputs.
Thread 'HOW-TO: Checking DTC's (Diagnostic Trouble Codes) on the 500E/E500'
FYI - HOW-TO: Checking DTC's (Diagnostic Trouble Codes) on the 500E/E500 | Troubleshooting and Diagnostics

Does the engine idle at factory spec at operating temperature and in neutral? When placed into drive does the eta respond to loads? You mention the engine will stall when turning the steering wheel. If you turn the wheel slowly do you detect the eta trying to compensate? You might be right the missing return spring could be the issue.
 
I`m already used with the code reader, but I`m not sure those codes are the same for the European model (my plugs has pins only on plugs 6,7,8 and 10). Anyway, there is only one error: Code 13 on pin 8.
 
Codes are the basically same between regions, but pinouts may be different depending on the equipment in the car.

Pin 8 is HFM-SFI, code 13 indicates the system is at the limits of adaptation (either max rich, or max lean). Bunch of things to check out there... O2 sensor, MAF, fuel pressure, etc.

1687294657343.png
 
I replaced the O2 sensor, both fuel pumps are new, what are the chances that the used MAF I installed today is also defective? :geist:

LE: or I have a vacuum leak that I am unable to discover. Sometimes when I`m braking, I can see the rpm dropping and also there are times when the car starts to jerk like the rpm it`s in a loop, although the tachometer looks alright.

Should I also mention the oil pressure needle that is trembling at idle (the pressure sensor is also new)?
 
Used MAF is a gamble... only way to verify it's good is to view live data on HHT-Win. Can you get a new or rebuilt MAF, or borrow a known-good MAF for testing?

Vacuum leak - use a smoke machine to inject smoke into the intake manifold, this will locate leaks, then fix 'em.

Oil pressure needle vibrating: Could be the gauge is failing. What brand sensor was installed - OE/OEM VDO/Hella, or something else?
 
Like Dave was saying checking the basics for the adaptation at limit fault. If you don’t have access to scan data the only way to see what HFM is seeing would be to look at O2 sensor voltages. .5 volts is the balance point of the system. .1 is lean and .9 volts is rich. Knowing that will help your focus on the diagnostics. Too lean =vacuum leaks, low fuel pressure, MAF issues. Too rich=fuel pressure, MAF issues
 
So I should buy a new MAF... considering that I changed everything else on the premises they will eventually fail someday so I`d better replace them before they fail.

@gsxr, oil pressure sensor is Febi Bilstein.

@Alphasud40, the replacement O2 sensor I used is a universal type, I kept the cable and connector from the old one. So will the readings be reliable in this case?
 
I'd remove the Febi Bilstein oil pressure sensor and replace it with OE/Genuine Mercedes, or if not available, OEM VDO. Febi is primarily known for reboxing cheap junk... if the needle wasn't vibrating before the sensor swap, it's pretty likely the problem was caused by the Febi.

:duck:
 
@gsxr, there is no before, I didn't have the chance to drive the car before the replacement. Can the trembling happen because I`m using a pretty thin oil? (Motul 5W40)
5W-40 is a common viscosity, and I've never seen an issue with the gauge using 5W-40 oil. However if you don't have a "before" reference point, it's possible the gauge cluster is at fault. This will be difficult to troubleshoot without swapping either the gauge or the sensor.

Regardless, I'd replace the Febi sensor on principle. The Febi is dirt cheap (~$15 USD) and made in China. OE/OEM is made in Germany and is around $75 USD depending on the vendor. Not sure about pricing in Europe though.


:spend:
 
Sounds to me she's not breathing well, so under load she suffocates / chokes on fuel. I suspect catalytic converters are clogged. Are they original, and if so, are they rattling? Can you run open headers and see if you have stalling / idling problems. I think that's more likely than a bad MAF, especially if the cats have been drinking oil for the last X years before you bought it. My thinking = known failure + cheap test. If converters / exhaust are on your list anyway, maybe do those next before chasing anything else.

GL

maw
 
@masinistul,
In regards to your engine temps. Have you checked your fan clutch for proper operation?

What you described (getting hot in stop and go traffic and running cool at steady speed) is typical of a failed fan clutch.
 
Sounds to me she's not breathing well, so under load she suffocates / chokes on fuel. I suspect catalytic converters are clogged. Are they original, and if so, are they rattling? Can you run open headers and see if you have stalling / idling problems. I think that's more likely than a bad MAF, especially if the cats have been drinking oil for the last X years before you bought it. My thinking = known failure + cheap test. If converters / exhaust are on your list anyway, maybe do those next before chasing anything else.

GL

maw
The exhaust was taken apart, all the piping and muffler behind the catalytic converter is new. The converter wasn’t checked for functionality, though. But the engine is running fine while driving, has strong performance and the fuel consumption seems normal.
 
@masinistul,
In regards to your engine temps. Have you checked your fan clutch for proper operation?

What you described (getting hot in stop and go traffic and running cool at steady speed) is typical of a failed fan clutch.
Everything besides the radiator is new (water pump, thermostat, sondes, expansion tank and cap, hoses, fan clutch).
 
Everything besides the radiator is new (water pump, thermostat, sondes, expansion tank and cap, hoses, fan clutch).
When the engine temps are ~100C in warm ambient temps (say, 30°C or above)... can you hear the fan roaring with engine RPM's? It's loud, you should be able to hear it.

How far above 100C is it getting? 102-105C, or 110-115C? And in what ambient temp?
 
When the engine temps are ~100C in warm ambient temps (say, 30°C or above)... can you hear the fan roaring with engine RPM's? It's loud, you should be able to hear it.

How far above 100C is it getting? 102-105C, or 110-115C? And in what ambient temp?
Yes, the fan is audible and did the newspaper test, it’s not stoping. I don’t think it was over 110C because the auxiliary fans don’t kick in. The two pin temperature sensor is new and the fans start when I pull the plug from the sensor. But the engine goes over 100C even if I let it idle after a drive. Ambient temperatures are close to 30C nowadays, but it had the same behavior before, when it was cooler outside.
 
The exhaust was taken apart, all the piping and muffler behind the catalytic converter is new. The converter wasn’t checked for functionality, though. But the engine is running fine while driving, has strong performance and the fuel consumption seems normal.
Yeah… downstream isn’t the issue… upstream is. Partially clogged cats may not impact driving under regular load. Open headers or a new MAF seem to be your next step and I’m 50/50 between those two.

But your paragraph 1 says good power delivery and the problem is only after idling. When it dies hot, does it have any problem restarting? If so that would lead to a Fuel Pressure Regulator.

maw
 
Yeah… downstream isn’t the issue… upstream is. Partially clogged cats may not impact driving under regular load. Open headers or a new MAF seem to be your next step and I’m 50/50 between those two.

But your paragraph 1 says good power delivery and the problem is only after idling. When it dies hot, does it have any problem restarting? If so that would lead to a Fuel Pressure Regulator.

maw
No, it starts just fine. I replaced the FPR last week, so it’s ok.
 
But a clogged catalytic converter or a broken MAF wouldn't rise the consumption and make the car drive horrible? Because I`ve driven over 2000 km since the engine was serviced and so far I get 8-10 l/100 km (23-30 MPG) on national roads/highways and 15-16 (14-15 MPG) in city driving. And from what I`ve read, that's normal.

One more thing: I tried to drive it with the MAF unplugged. It`s not doable - although it starts fine, it stalls everytime when I select Drive and try to pull off.
 
But a clogged catalytic converter or a broken MAF wouldn't rise the consumption and make the car drive horrible? Because I`ve driven over 2000 km since the engine was serviced and so far I get 8-10 l/100 km (23-30 MPG) on national roads/highways and 15-16 (14-15 MPG) in city driving. And from what I`ve read, that's normal.

One more thing: I tried to drive it with the MAF unplugged. It`s not doable - although it starts fine, it stalls everytime when I select Drive and try to pull off.
No it wouldn’t, necessarily. It depends upon how clogged they are. My cats were clogged when I bought the car (500E), and I ran it on a 10hr trip each way not knowing. I recall getting it to pull hard at 80mph to 110mph seemed a chore, but 3rd gear would do the trick. And the car pulls like a train, was new to me, I’d wanted one for a while, etc., so I was happy. Once I changed the converters I could tell she was breathing better. That’s why I said “if it’s on the list do it next.” I’m not sure it fixes your issues. But it would be on my list to do anyway after 30+ years. Gas mileage has been the same throughout.

The other “30 year old” problem that festered without any sign was a Bowden cable adjustment (1 mm, 2 mm max). That’s another simple fix, even easier than the converters. And since you’re uncertain of your work there, maybe that’s first instead of converters.

As I read your complaints again, I’m not worried about the temperature, which makes me less suspicious of clogged converters. It’s really only the dying out and rough idle that are of concern to me.

maw

EDIT... I think it was Klink who told me not to worry about temps on these engines until they're in the RED. I haven't thought about 100*-120* since, and that was probably 10 years ago.
 
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