95 E420 wheel tire upsize and the front fender clearence issue.

[Ascension]

After some months of looking I last week finally picked up a set for my 95 E 420.
It was like pulling teeth here trying to get straight answers on what would fit and what would not so thought I would post this one to help those who own the 034's out in this.
The main issue with the 034 cars is that the factory for the US cars choose cartoonishly small non speed rated 195/65/15 in tires on a 15/6 wheel for these cars and then governed them. Most euros got a 16/7.5 and v rated 225 tires.
On the US 400/420 the front wheel wells are super tight.
After many rounds of asking questions I went with a 17/7.5 ET 35 wheel and a 215/50/17 that all the books said cleared, it didn't. I now have rubbing issues at the rear edge of the cladding on both wells if I have a passenger in the car on some turns and over larger bumps.
This week I will be doing the AMG wheel well space fix so stay tuned.
Started out with this

Now have this look but the rubbing issues.

[URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rutledri/media/1995%20E-420/DSCN1352_zpsdolo3f8h.jpg.html]
[/URL]
Headed to work now but will post photos of the rubbing marks later tonight and then will post on my progress in recreating the now discontinued W124 AMG well space fix as it all evolves.

 

[Klink]

Richard, you know I love you, Bro, but most of us here gave you excellent information on what would and would not fit well. You had your own ideas based on no practical experience of actually doing any of that with these cars, while many of us here had already played with these things six ways from Sunday. And yet note that you still wound up with something within the range of what most of us were talking about, and still had the minor, if surmountable, rubbing issue that most of us said you would have with picks in your range.

While my cranky pants are on, note the following. There are some minor errors in your information:

The USA version of this model was fitted ex factory with 6.5 inch wheels, not 6 inch wheels. These were also fitted to the European version cars until approximately 4/93 production, unless the car in question was fitted with the "Sportline" option, in which case it had 7 inch wheels with 205/60/15 tires.

Starting around that 4/93 time frame, the European version of the .034 was fitted with the same front brakes as the .036 cars, mandating a larger 16" wheel. Please note that this ECE 124.034 16 inch wheel was 7 inches wide, not 7.5 inches wide. The 7.5 that everyone references is a model 210 fittment. Note also that the .034 with larger brakes and 16" wheels used the same wheel and tire (215/55/16) regardless of stock or "Sportline" build. I have purchased three sets of 5 of these 124 7X16 wheels personally, so I am probably the singular individual most responsible for them being "NLA" if there can be such a thing. And no, for those who may ask, I don't have any left.

All of the tires fitted to all 124s were "speed rated". 124.034 cars were fitted with at minimum V rated tires in the ECE, and in the US until the '94 model year. Americans endlessly complained about high tire wear, noise at American highway speeds, and the necessity of changing out to winter tires, so precisely to address this interminable tsunami of complaint in this era when JD Power and consumerism is dumbing down everything you touch, the USA cars were given a 130 mph speed limit, and H rated all season tires. We may hate this stuff, but the customers that actually buy these cars new ate this up like Gainesburgers. This has been standard practice with most models ever since.


I'm not trying to pick on you, but be a tiny bit kinder and gentler with the implications. Just about everybody here with experience tried to help you with your wheel dilemma, and that was because we understood that it really is a dilemma. Thanks for posting your findings.

 

[nocfn]

I have some .034 fenders that have been flared to fit a e500 with 245/45/17 tires. They are for sale

 

[Gatorblue92]

I know its a bit late but I'm running the light CLK alloy rims on my 93 .034 with 205/55/16 tires and I have no rubbing issues. I'm not sure what the ET or width of the wheels is.





Sorry for the dirty car.

 

[gsxr]

We have those flyweight CLK forged wheels on our 1994 E420 as well. 16x7.0 ET37 with 205/55/16 tires... works great, zero issues.

 

[Ascension]

The issue is well known on these cars and there was a factory ( or AMG at the least) fix. The AMG kit is seemingly no longer available however seems the poly universal swaybar bushings from Energy suspension are the right thickness and diameter. I picked up a set for $15 yesterday from my local O'Reilly and come with the proper size washers for the AMG kit so all I need are the slightly longer bolts and a little time later this week to space the fenders out by the 3/4 inch or so at the well. I'm doing only the mods in section C in the link at the bottom here unless I have further rubbing afterwards ( which I doubt ).
Here is the front wheel fit note how close it is at the very rear of the well

Rub marks drivers side

Rub marks passengers side

Great room at the rear though!

No more tail dragger look with this set up


AMG fix for this issue on the regular W124's
View attachment W124 AMG Wheel Install(2).pdf

 

[Ascension]

I know its a bit late but I'm running the light CLK alloy rims on my 93 .034 with 205/55/16 tires and I have no rubbing issues. I'm not sure what the ET or width of the wheels is.





Sorry for the dirty car.

That look is IMO better than stock and I would bet the ride /handling is much improved over the stock 15's. However that was not the look I was going for at all with my car.
Note how far spaced out and full the fronts look here and yet how tiny and far tucked in the rears look with this set up? It's not as out of whack as the stock look but still to me look's "off".
Compare the look above with the look I have on my car now.



I need to get a good photo at distance from the side so you car see the stance of this car now to give you the real picture. It really caused a huge change in the cars personality.
You 036 guys don't deal with this like the rest of us with W-124's do as the factory fixed this on the 036.

 

[Ascension]

Richard, you know I love you, Bro, but most of us here gave you excellent information on what would and would not fit well. You had your own ideas based on no practical experience of actually doing any of that with these cars, while many of us here had already played with these things six ways from Sunday. And yet note that you still wound up with something within the range of what most of us were talking about, and still had the minor, if surmountable, rubbing issue that most of us said you would have with picks in your range.

While my cranky pants are on, note the following. There are some minor errors in your information:

The USA version of this model was fitted ex factory with 6.5 inch wheels, not 6 inch wheels. These were also fitted to the European version cars until approximately 4/93 production, unless the car in question was fitted with the "Sportline" option, in which case it had 7 inch wheels with 205/60/15 tires.

Starting around that 4/93 time frame, the European version of the .034 was fitted with the same front brakes as the .036 cars, mandating a larger 16" wheel. Please note that this ECE 124.034 16 inch wheel was 7 inches wide, not 7.5 inches wide. The 7.5 that everyone references is a model 210 fittment. Note also that the .034 with larger brakes and 16" wheels used the same wheel and tire (215/55/16) regardless of stock or "Sportline" build. I have purchased three sets of 5 of these 124 7X16 wheels personally, so I am probably the singular individual most responsible for them being "NLA" if there can be such a thing. And no, for those who may ask, I don't have any left.

All of the tires fitted to all 124s were "speed rated". 124.034 cars were fitted with at minimum V rated tires in the ECE, and in the US until the '94 model year. Americans endlessly complained about high tire wear, noise at American highway speeds, and the necessity of changing out to winter tires, so precisely to address this interminable tsunami of complaint in this era when JD Power and consumerism is dumbing down everything you touch, the USA cars were given a 130 mph speed limit, and H rated all season tires. We may hate this stuff, but the customers that actually buy these cars new ate this up like Gainesburgers. This has been standard practice with most models ever since.


I'm not trying to pick on you, but be a tiny bit kinder and gentler with the implications. Just about everybody here with experience tried to help you with your wheel dilemma, and that was because we understood that it really is a dilemma. Thanks for posting your findings.

First off Dave bro both you and GSXer in particular both made real attempts to help in this without attitudes and I won't forget that.
Yes it really is a dilemma for us peons with "regular" W 124's as this issue is pretty much nonexistent on the 036's. As long as one uses a sane wheel/tire size at all 4 corners you guys have many options on your cars but those of us with ( to coin Gerrys term here) more pedestrian W124's like the 034 are very restricted in our choices.
Understand also that my car is a 95 and came with H rate tiny no traction tires and the governor. Also let's be clear that it was you who pushed the 45 ratio issue as being cartoonishly small looking on these cars ( and I agree with you BTW). You had a major impact in me going up to the 50 ratio and had I stayed with the 45 Tire Rack was recommending here I would likely have not had the rubbing issues ( nor would I have gotten the ride quality or look I have here so ).
Bottom line there are many with these cars that are fighting the same issue so let's see if we can find a workable solution here for us all!

 

[Ascension]

I have some .034 fenders that have been flared to fit a e500 with 245/45/17 tires. They are for sale

Thanks for the offer bro. Let's see where the AMG fix get's me first and then we may talk.

 

[nocfn]

Ok let me know, sitting in my garage

 

[Gatorblue92]

That look is IMO better than stock and I would bet the ride /handling is much improved over the stock 15's. However that was not the look I was going for at all with my car.
Note how far spaced out and full the fronts look here and yet how tiny and far tucked in the rears look with this set up? It's not as out of whack as the stock look but still to me look's "off".
I need to get a good photo at distance from the side so you car see the stance of this car now to give you the real picture. It really caused a huge change in the cars personality.
You 036 guys don't deal with this like the rest of us with W-124's do as the factory fixed this on the 036.

The ride is vastly improved over stock and the look is 1000x better as well. These CLK wheels were on my 300TE when I bought it and they never seemed to look just right on the wagon so I swapped the wheels between the two cars. The wagon now has some Mille Migela replicas of an unknown origin. They were on my 300E when I bought it and I can't find them anywhere now. I think the setup I'm running on both cars suits them better than before.

On the 400E


Currently on the 5 speed 300TE


CLK wheels on the 300TE



Stock wheels on the 400E






Current picture of both

 

[Ascension]

A wheel tire combo will do much to affect the personality of a car and is very subjective.
To me the CLK wheels look very dated and remind me of the steels that you would see on a dirt track car. I personally don't like the look on these cars at all but others may love it so to each their own.
The issue here is we have very few choices on these cars that fit due to the front clearance issue and I simply wanted to run something more modern than the stock tire and wheel size used on a bottom level KIA. Heck what out there other than bottom end cheapo rice burners runs stuff this small today? It's not like I'm trying to run steam rollers here guys!
Bottom line is you 036 folks have choices and many of them but without the AMG mod we who own more "pedestrian" 034's and other W124's have few that will clear up front. So let's see what just the basic AMG fender mod opens up in choices for these cars hmm?

 

[samiam44]

What's going on with your bumper on the driver's side picture?

Looks like you are missing the fender attach bolt/washer. That's a good way to break an expensive bumper if it's not attached. Look at the gap @ fender well.

What nip spring pads are you using? I got the same rubbing on my 034 and thought about adding a bottom spacer on the fender ala AMG.

Dave had a picture showing the kit. It was a simple nonmetalic spacer/bolt washer.

Michael

 

[Ascension]

What's going on with your bumper on the driver's side picture?

Looks like you are missing the fender attach bolt/washer. That's a good way to break an expensive bumper if it's not attached. Look at the gap @ fender well.

What nip spring pads are you using? I got the same rubbing on my 034 and thought about adding a bottom spacer on the fender ala AMG.

Dave had a picture showing the kit. It was a simple nonmetalic spacer/bolt washer.

Michael

Good eye man on the bumper. it's not the bolt it's something with the brackets on both sides as they are not connected to the bumper itself and I had no idea of this till I started looking at the clearance issue on the wheels. Also noticing it seems slightly tighter on the drivers side at the top of the tire than the passenger. Will get it up hopefully tomorrow for a hard look on what's going on with the bumper and also the gap between the fender and tire. Can some one tell me what it will take to pull the plastic trim on both fenders without breaking the clips or scratching the paint?
Here are better photos of the stance from a distance with this set up. IMO this look is worth fighting to keep if I can.
Passenger


Drivers

[URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/rutledri/media/1995%20E-420/DSCN1366_zpsy0sqw4gy.jpg.html][/URL]
From the rear showing the way they fit the wells now. Rear is near perfect but the front needs just a little tweaking.

Looks more like a rival for a M series BMW of the era rather than grandma's ol stodgy grocery getter like it did before.

 

[samiam44]

You just pull the trim and I have not had paint issues.

Sometimes clips break and sometimes they don't. I think on all the lower trim panel clips, all except 1 were available via autohausaz.com if you type in the factory p/n. Most were very inexpensive relative to factory prices. I believe someone said you could pull the fender liner and help the lower clips free up(??).

I've seen a tire catch a front bumper and crack it badly. Yes I believe there is a pop rivet which holds a piece to the bumper- but figure this out. You'll be out a good $700 if you have to get a new bumper and paint it.


Michael

 

[nocfn]

Ask me about bumpers, fenders and paint

 

[Ascension]

You just pull the trim and I have not had paint issues.

Sometimes clips break and sometimes they don't. I think on all the lower trim panel clips, all except 1 were available via autohausaz.com if you type in the factory p/n. Most were very inexpensive relative to factory prices. I believe someone said you could pull the fender liner and help the lower clips free up(??).

I've seen a tire catch a front bumper and crack it badly. Yes I believe there is a pop rivet which holds a piece to the bumper- but figure this out. You'll be out a good $700 if you have to get a new bumper and paint it.


Michael

Thanks on the trim removal tip and will do on figuring the bumper issue out ASAP bro. Never caught the bumper ends were not connected to those brackets until now when I started looking at accessing the front fender bolts so will address that issue ASAP.
Called Tire Rack about the clearance issue and have a set of the 215/45 P7's incoming at their expense as after a harder look with the ET 35's and the 215/50's it's just to close for comfort at the very top of the front wells at full suspension compression on a turn to risk. Also the 215/50/17's were about an inch taller than the 205/60/15's that came off and the last thing a 420 needs with the 2:20 something gear is more tire diameter! With the wheel color and type I'm running it should not be very noticeable at all loosing the 1/2 off the sidewall. Will roll the inner fender lip back at the top of the fenders today and do the spacers after the tires are installed and I can see the over all fit just to make sure I get this right so keep you guys posted.

 

[Ascension]

Anybody here used one of these tools to roll fenders?
Seriously thinking of buying one as over the years I could have used one on a number of cars if they work as advertized.
http://www.eastwood.com/ew-fender-r...om&utm_medium=Merchant-Centre&SRCCODE=1SE1531

 

[gsxr]

Anybody here used one of these tools to roll fenders?
Seriously thinking of buying one as over the years I could have used one on a number of cars if they work as advertized.
http://www.eastwood.com/ew-fender-r...om&utm_medium=Merchant-Centre&SRCCODE=1SE1531

Nope, but it's been on my wish list for a while... and now that the price is down to $119, it's getting awfully tempting!!

 

[samiam44]

might add...

If you get wallow over bumps, at your mileage, I would suggest replacing the rear shocks. They don't seem to fail like american stuff, but do get soft. Easy job, relatively inexpensive and doesn't take long. Great ROI

The struts seem to have a longer life. Nope, my 500e looks like they have been rolled or maybe the factory does it on the 500e's??
I've got very thin clearance on my rears- but no rubbing. Knock on wood!!!

M

 

[Ascension]

might add...

If you get wallow over bumps, at your mileage, I would suggest replacing the rear shocks. They don't seem to fail like american stuff, but do get soft. Easy job, relatively inexpensive and doesn't take long. Great ROI

The struts seem to have a longer life. Nope, my 500e looks like they have been rolled or maybe the factory does it on the 500e's??
I've got very thin clearance on my rears- but no rubbing. Knock on wood!!!

M

Mine seems tight in the suspension and no wallow. The steering damper is likely original and going up in the tire wheel did show a little of it's age but otherwise so far mine seems in good shape.
Yes the factory both spaced the fronts and and rolled both wells on the 500. The AMG bulletin on fitting the ET 42 7.5x17's and 225 X45's calls for spacing the bottom then rolling the top on the fronts on a regular W-124. From what I can find the AMG W124 fender spacer kit is no longer available. However the red Energy Suspension universal sway bar bushings are the same thickness and diameter as the spacers in the AMG kit + come with the proper washers. Grabbed a kit for $15 at my local O'Reilly's and just need to find the longer bolts to make it work.
View attachment W124 AMG Wheel Install(2).pdf

 

[Gil]

Just bought this 94 E420. Came with 17 inch 430 sport wheels, 215/50s on the back and 225/45s on the front (yeah, I know). Look great, but I don't like the ride and doubt they will like snow. The original 15 inch wheels are in the trunk and I'm thinking stock size Conti all weathers on them and sell the 17s (if you want them contact me, maybe we can deal).

Back to the subject at hand, they don't rub, just are noisy and a bit harsh.

Where'd the picture go??

 

[Gil]

Oh, and yes, the front fenders are rolled.

 

[gsxr]

Those E430 Sport wheels are 17x8.0 ET37 and should have 235-45-17 tires, although 225-45-17 would be ok too. Odd they used 215's in the rear. Gil, your car looks nice, appears to be lowered as well...

 

[Gil]

Thanks. Thought the tire size choices were a bit odd myself. Also it came with 3 Michelins and a Conti - bubbled Michelin in the boot. So I need to sort the tires, hate mismatches, and get a good spare. Might be lowered, not sure, would certainly explain the harshness, have to get under myself and see. Dealer PPI did not say so and they knew the car well having done most of the work. I figured the upsize just did a heck of a job filling the wells. If lowered the originals may as well if/when I get them shod. Some designers call the space between the tire and the wheel arch the "dead cat space" and this car doesn't have any. Had an 86 300e for a while, loved the ride, balance and winter confidence, easily matched/beat a front drive DeVille I also owned a while back. I'm not an aggressive driver any more, so utility under all conditions is important to me which is why I'm thinking original spec tires on original wheels in a good all weather tread.

Gil

Incompetence: If you believe that lack of skill can be compensated for by a redoubling of effort, there is no limit to what you can't accomplish.

 

[gsxr]

Gil, I'm almost positive the car is lowered... and depending on what springs / shocks are installed, that could explain some of the harsh ride.

On a level surface, measure the distance from fender lip to wheel center, as shown in the photos below... also note the amount of fuel in the tank when measuring. The rear ride height will change 1/4-1/2 inch between empty tank and full tank.

 

[Gil]

You are correct.

Looks like 12 1/2 inches, a tad less in back with a full tank. Is the car in the pics factory height? either way, you are correct, a least an inch. Don't think I want to play with the suspension, will leave it alone. Everything is nice and tight and she tracks straight and true, no dive or body roll to speak of, just doesn't like in town, rough pavement.

You seem familiar with modified wheel and suspension sets. Is there anything I need to know?

Gil

Incompetence: If you believe that lack of skill can be compensated for by a redoubling of effort, there is no limit to what you can't accomplish.

 

[gsxr]

You are correct. Looks like 12 1/2 inches, a tad less in back with a full tank. Is the car in the pics factory height? either way, you are correct, a least an inch. Don't think I want to play with the suspension, will leave it alone. Everything is nice and tight and she tracks straight and true, no dive or body roll to speak of, just doesn't like in town, rough pavement.

You seem familiar with modified wheel and suspension sets. Is there anything I need to know?[/I]

Holy crap. No wonder the ride is harsh... at 12.5 inches you may be sitting on the suspension stops, or close to it. On my three E420's with stock suspension, all measured about 14.5" up front and 14.75-15.0" in the rear with a full tank. I don't like going below about 13.5" for street use but that's just me. If the car has 1-pt spring pads, you could raise it a little with thicker pads. See what springs are in there, might be 6-cyl aftermarket or something?

 

[Gil]

Gaaaa.. I used a foot ruler from here in the office, will do it again with a tape when I get home, hope I goofed but even so nowhere near 14+. More reason to go under, also ask the servicing dealer what was done or find a friendly lift. Thanks for the info - must find a manual(s) shop and owners. Always something new to learn. Thanks.

The more I live, the more I learn. The more I learn, the more I realize, the less I know.

 

[gsxr]

Service manual is online here... enjoy!

http://www.w124-zone.com/downloads/MB CD/W124/Index/119index.html

 

[Gil]

Thanks much. Tape says right on 13 F&R. Now wondering if stock tires will do anything for the ride. Probably still help this winter.

You will not understand the course until you pay the tuition.

 

[Ascension]

Last night swapped the 215/50/17's for 215/45/17's as it was to much of a hassle on the front to make them fit.
The 215/45's clear on the ET 35's with absolutely no rubbing at all so problem solved there. Looked better with the 50's and the ride was a little better but got rid of the weird bump steer issue I had with the 50's at speed on rough pavement and these are glassy smooth up to the 110 or so I pushed them today.
Ride and handling with the 17 in ANSO's and the P7's is light years better that the old 15's with those Hankooks so over all I'm happy.
215 45's


215 50's

Didn't hurt the stance to much going to the lower profile but made a huge difference in the clearance at the front.
Front fit 50's

Front fit 45's you can get your whole hand in the space at the rear of the well with room left over even with the wheels turned now!!


Will still space the fronts and roll the lips just to make sure ASAP but so far so good with the new set up!

 

[Ascension]

Well after living with the 1215/45/17's and driving her on different roads with a load a couple times for a few days I REALLY like this set up with the ET 35 7.5 ANSOS's. It's just glassy smooth at speed the ride is great over all tire height was dead on the stock combo so speedo is likely really close + I have absolutely NO clearance issues now. Steering feel and response is light years better than stock and with the low profile P7's the ride is actually better now not worse than with the stock 15's.