Cost effective alternative to the SA brakes for Earlier LCA cars?

[cargen]

My pad wear sensor light came on recently and while I have to replace the rotors and pads, I thought I might as well upgrade the front brakes.
I have a 1992MY so I would have to upgrade my LCAs to accommodate the R129 SA upgrade which would cost roughly $700~800, before the price of the actual brake upgrade.

I also noticed that a lot of E500Es run Porsche calipers in Japan and I managed to find(or google) one of the companies that makes the adapter brackets for E500Es.
I sent them an email asking some questions back in July and here is what I know so far about the 996 caliper conversion.

"Type1= Front320mm / Rear 300mm (For 17inch Wheel)Type2= Front345mm / Rear 330mm (For 18inch Wheel)"


"The Rotor used in this kit is the Mercedes-Benz genuine parts. So you can buy the parts locally and quickly."

"Type1= Front brackets 43500yen / Rear brakets 39000yen

Type2= Front brackets 35000yen / Rear brakets 35000yen"



"After bracket purchase,

I will tell the Mercedes-Benz genuine parts number.(referring to the rotors)

Shipping cost is about 5400yen or upper."

It does not require a newer LCA and also works with the standard brake master cylinder.
---------
I have replied back to him asking further questions, primarily what's the difference between Type 1 and Type 2, but he never responded back.
My guess is that it's the difference between standard 996 calipers vs 996TT calipers.
I'm thinking about upgrading only the fronts right now and with the JPY quite cheap these days, the front brackets can be had, including shipping, for less than $350.
996TT front calipers are generally less than $600. I don't know what rotors it uses but I think it'd be the 345x30 ones in C55.

Can this be a cost effective alternative to the SA upgrade? I still have lots of other items left on my car to sort out (Motor Mounts :|) and I'm attending school in Michigan so I probably have less that 2 months of driving left until next year so this upgrade might not happen for a while but I'd like some inputs on whether this would be a nice cheaper alternative to the SA upgrade. I might be forgetting some important details too so please point them out for me.

 

[Glen]

By more cost effective, do you mean less expensive overall? I doubt that's the case, however you will have a BBK with more bling factor and possibly better stopping power. In addition to sourcing calipers and rotors you will also need to account for pads and lines. And also decide on what to do about the dust shields.

 

[500AMM]

Hi,

Anything else than Silver Arrow and StopTech is much more cost demanding, and I think Glen pointed out some of it. But if the vendor provide a set with proven fitment on the .036, it could be interesting though.

Do you have any leads to the producer of the brake caliper adapters BTW?


-a-

 

[cargen]

By cost effective, yes, I did mean less expensive overall. I naturally assumed upgrading the brake lines to braided ones and they are not that pricey either(under $100 so not very significant when it comes to the overall cost).
In terms of pad costs, Akebono's for the stock brakes are quite cheap(~$100 front and back on amazon) but I'm willing to spend more for pads when it comes to bigger brakes.
I did not realize uprating the front rotors would be interfered by the dust shields.. Would the savings in not paying ~$750 for LCA be countered by the auxiliary costs in the end?

This is their website:
http://www.will-inc.com/brake.html

I also found some more images on google japan of w124's running on Porsche calipers. (A lot of cars were also running modern AMG calipers as well)

 

[Glen]

The dust shields by themselves are not that expensive, you just need to decide to either trim or remove them to clear both the large caliper and rotor. I am assuming you will need custom brake lines, unless the Porsche calipers are threaded the same as MB, in which case you can use MB lines. If not, then you will need either an adapter or custom lines. From what I can see in those last pictures, all the cars are running two-piece rotors. Those alone will set you back about the same cost as new LCA's. In your message above, it says you can use factory MB rotors so maybe the cost will be more reasonable, really depends on which rotors are needed.

Please understand, I REALLY like this idea but I don't believe it will be less expensive in the end and I'm certain you will hit some obstacles that will further drive the price up unexpectedly.

 

[gsxr]

Please understand, I REALLY like this idea but I don't believe it will be less expensive in the end and I'm certain you will hit some obstacles that will further drive the price up unexpectedly.

^^^ What Glen said. And, I'll guarantee that custom hoses will be required.

There is also a question of pedal feel, which is highly subjective. The few people who have done the Porsche upgrade may say pedal feel is ok, or even great, but until you try it for yourself... or unless you get a LOT of people all doing the exact same upgrade and agreeing... it's another risk. I know someone who installed the AMG E55 brakes on a 500E (8-piston front, 4-piston rear) and the pedal feel was terrible. They ended up removing the brakes and installing the SA setup instead. That is one major advantage to the SA kit, it's been proven to work by probably 50-100 different people. Zero risk.

 

[cargen]

Thank you all for the feedbacks! This was exactly what I was looking for since I figured it wouldn't be as simple as using a bracket to ensure the caliper fitted correctly. Glad I asked here!
I think I'll asking the company for more details regarding the swap (the brake hose issue mentioned above, MB rotor p/n, the dust shield, etc) and try to get an estimate on how much the front swaps are going to cost in total.
With regards to the brake feel, as gsxr mentioned, it's definitely a risk. I don't know how the stock 500 brake master cylinders+996 calipers are going to feel.
But I am willing to try it out if the cost estimate actually turned out to be reasonable. All in all total cost for SA(f+r) is quite too high for me right now and I think I'll just be sticking to the factory brakes if the Porsche option is not viable.
Thanks again!

 

[jhodg5ck]

If you want inexpensive no one has beaten my s600/ml430 rotor combination. 350mm IIRC.. Do more stopping then you would ever have a right to on the street!

Pedal feel is A OK, but going to I stall a SA/Late master to get some more rear bias.

I've already had the custom braided lines made... You'll want to ditch the dust shields...they look silly all cut up IMHO.
Plus, makes it easier to run ducting... Again, something I have a low cost option for that works Really well

Jono

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[500AMM]

If you want inexpensive no one has beaten my s600/ml430 rotor combination. 350mm IIRC.. Do more stopping then you would ever have a right to on the street!

Pedal feel is A OK, but going to I stall a SA/Late master to get some more rear bias.

I've already had the custom braided lines made... You'll want to ditch the dust shields...they look silly all cut up IMHO.
Plus, makes it easier to run ducting... Again, something I have a low cost option for that works Really well

Jono

Jono, I'm sure you know that the dust shields is not dust shields at all, but they're shaped for cooling, protect adjacent parts for heat on extreme braking, and protect the brake disk for water spray causing imbalance. But ducts for better cooling is highly wanted of course.

The rear shields can just be cut to pieces instead of dismantling the rear wheel hubs to get them off. The new shields can be modified a bit so they slip over the hub. The only thing to take off first is the parking brake mechanism.

 

[jhodg5ck]

I needed a lot more air then those shields/ducts would give me...plus, the new rotors Dwarfed the old "shield".
Last time out with smaller rotors/shields in place I about burnt the brakes out of the car.
Stopped that from happening something spectacular now!

Ran in the wet one day with this setup, no ill results/warping/issues to speak of.

On the rear we are running stock rotors, dimensionally @ least... Just slotted/cryo'd. No ducting as of yet but will be running some to help keep the diff cool as she gets a might bit Warm!

Jono

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[500AMM]

I needed a lot more air then those shields/ducts would give me...plus, the new rotors Dwarfed the old "shield".
Last time out with smaller rotors/shields in place I about burnt the brakes out of the car.
Stopped that from happening something spectacular now!

Ran in the wet one day with this setup, no ill results/warping/issues to speak of.

On the rear we are running stock rotors, dimensionally @ least... Just slotted/cryo'd. No ducting as of yet but will be running some to help keep the diff cool as she gets a might bit Warm!

Jono

Experience - the spoken testimony as usual, thanks Jono!
I think warping issues due to water spray mostly concerns regular non-vented discs. I've never understood why peps doing BBK upgrades (Big Brake Kit) doesn't upgrade the shield plates accordingly, especially on the fronts. Adapting bigger shield plates from another car shouldn't be that much rocket science.

As for the pedal modulation and brake bias, I am debating about using a larger MC myself. I will use 6+4 pot AMG calipers and the fluid fill rate will be higher than the OE calipers. This will give a deeper pedal travel, but I'm not sure how much it will be in reality.

OE front caliper pistons: 38mm – 42mm
AMG front caliper pistons: 30mm – 34mm – 38mm
I don't know the rear piston sizes on the OE and AMG.

The Brembo production drawings doesn't say anything about the fill rate, but it will increase during pad & disc wear anyway. The piston configuration i.e. hollow vs. solid, doesn't count when the calipers are filled up, the interesting subject is the incremental fill rates. This way we can neglect the fill volume, but use the total piston area in the calcs to compare the calipers.

OE caliper total piston area:
(38² π¼ + 42² π¼) x 2 = 5037 mm²
AMG caliper total piston area:
(30² π¼ + 34² π¼ + 38² π¼) x 2 = 5998 mm²

This gives 19% higher fill rate on 6-pot AMGs at any given piston movement, which means approx. 19% increased pedal travel. This is a theoretical number, it's not much difference, but it confirms what most people has experienced when installing these AMGs.

 

[M104-AMG]

If<SNIP> You'll want to ditch the dust shields...they look silly all cut up IMHO.
Plus, makes it easier to run ducting... Again, something I have a low cost option for that works Really well

Jono

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Jono- can you post pics of your ducting setup ?

neil

 

[whipplem104]

I am going to rock the boat here but you do not need different lca for any brakes that I have seen. There is a different backing plate with a hole in it to go further in for the 2 piece arm. Many SLs have it and a few 500Es as well. We just cut a hole in the original one and it is fine. There is probably a 1/8" or more clearance from the rotor to the bj. Now I have never done the r129 rotor on any cars but I have done c55 brakes on mine and they are larger. Not sure of the offsets. But I just do not see it.

 

[gsxr]

I am going to rock the boat here but you do not need different lca for any brakes that I have seen. There is a different backing plate with a hole in it to go further in for the 2 piece arm. Many SLs have it and a few 500Es as well. We just cut a hole in the original one and it is fine. There is probably a 1/8" or more clearance from the rotor to the bj. Now I have never done the r129 rotor on any cars but I have done c55 brakes on mine and they are larger. Not sure of the offsets. But I just do not see it.

Russell, it depends on the particular car, and the specific brake rotor being installed. The 320mm rotor sits about 0.5-1.0mm further out compared to the 334mm and I've had a car with 320mm front rotors with early LCA's, with a hole cut in the dust shield... but there was only a ~1.5mm air gap. I replaced the LCA's with new early and that change alone reduced the air gap to 1mm, which was great until you drove the car and turned a corner, then the rotor would rub the LCA - quite audibly. I ended up installing late LCA's to cure the problem. It's a tolerance stack issue, if you have all favorable tolerances, it might work. Otherwise it does not.

The 334mm rotors sit deeper and I've never seen a car where the 334's will clear early LCA's, even with the dust shield cut or removed.

The factory air gap between rotor and LCA/balljoint is 5-7mm depending on the LCA and rotor combo. My testing has shown that anything less than 2mm risks contact between hard parts. Anything less than 1mm is almost guaranteed to touch when cornering, even with wheel bearing end play set to min spec of 0.01.

 

[whipplem104]

Well 1mm is definitely something that I would just polish off the new control arms. That can just be different casting flash. You would not even have to grind it. Just a sanding disc would take that off in a couple of seconds.
Like I said. I have not done the r129 brakes so I would have to see the issue. I am just saying it is not an absolute that you need the newer lca.

 

[gsxr]

Correct, if you don't mind grinding away a few mm, that would do the trick. I wasn't comfortable doing that on a car that I was intending to sell. Not sure I'd like it on my personal car either though. I actually tried grinding some on the new early LCA's, but I didn't like how much it was taking to provide the necessary clearance, so I quit and just installed a set of late LCA's instead.

 

[cargen]

Just a quick post in case anyone is still interested in this upgrade;

The company quoted me 135000JPY(=~$1100 at the time of writing) for their Front upgrade kit, which includes 1)Refurbished 996 caliper(+used pads as a service), 2)custom brake hoses, and 3)the adapter brackets.
The kit would require the use of 345x30mm rotors, which I think should clear the older LCA without a problem. They have sent me multiple pictures of their kit on e500es so I don't doubt their compatibility with our cars.



I've tried to get it even cheaper by just sourcing the calipers here since 996 calipers are abundant here in the US. They never got back to me on what porsche part# calipers are compatible with the brackets. (Probably fed up that I was asking so many questions without purchasing xD)

I do believe this option can be a good alternative to the popular SA upgrade. 996 calipers are much easier to source and not having to pay for the labor of replacing the LCA(let alone the part costs) does add up to a pretty big sum.
If I do pull the trigger on their kit next summer, I will be sure to leave a review here on the board.

 

[whipplem104]

This is also what I like about the 6pot calipers I am doing on the w124. I am having brackets made to mount them and the savings on the rotors offset the brackets. Not to mention the control arms. Calipers cost around 900.00 out of a salvage yard for the front and rears and rotors are less than another 600.00 plus pads and brackets. I think we will be around 2500.00 with lines etc. Front and rear.

 

[Marc R]

Are these rotors custom work or from the MB parts store?

 

[whipplem104]

We are using stock slk55 rear rotors and C55 AMG front rotors. So stock parts. The rotors are 345 if I remember or maybe 355mm. The caliper was used on both 340 and 360mm I think so the pads fit the face just fine and the plane thickness is the same. Just waiting on the brackets to get put into CAD and machined up. I have a thread on here about it. Was trying to gauge interest but no one really got it. I would love to do a 10 Piece run on them and sell them to get the cost down. One offs are expensive and they are different brackets for each side. So it really is 2 one off parts.

 

[samiam44]

Whipple,

If you are smart with the design for machining- no tooling needed and you cut both parts(which are mirrors) at the same time on the mill.


M

 

[Stevester 500E]

So guys, is this cost effective?

 

[gsxr]

Depends on your needs / budget. Steve's Russell's six-pot setup still costs twice what a SA kit will run you. Don't forget when you go past about 345mm rotors, you'll also need 18" wheels...

 

[whipplem104]

This is Russell. Steve is that other guy from the PNW.
I checked these are 345mm rotors. I have not checked to see if 17"s go on over them yet. I had a temp setup to get it figured out but that was a while ago.
And thank you for the suggestion on the machining. I do not do this stuff myself but have a great local machinist that I use. Literally he is around the corner. I am learning cad software so I can move this kind of stuff along faster. I have wanted to for a long time but it is starting to get necessary.

 

[Marc R]

If the set up with the Porsche 996 calipers and C55 AMG rotor will fit under the 17 inch EVO wheels , then yes.... I would have serious interest in the brackets

 

[gsxr]

This is Russell. Steve is that other guy from the PNW.

D'OH! I knew that - my apologies, Russell. Replying to the other Steve caused some cranial flatulence on my part...

BTW, I agree with Marc, if the setup will fit under stock Evo wheels, that would be a pretty good selling point.

 

[cargen]

345mm rotors would not fit 17 inch wheels but if you can see the very first post I made with the quotes from their email, they do have a kit that uses a 320mm rotor+996 calipers designed specifically for 17 in wheels(evo wheels, especially).
"Type1= Front320mm / Rear 300mm (For 17inch Wheel)
Type2= Front345mm / Rear 330mm (For 18inch Wheel)
The Rotor used in this kit is the Mercedes-Benz genuine parts. So you can buy the parts locally and quickly.
Type1= Front brackets 43500yen / Rear brakets 39000yen
Type2= Front brackets 35000yen / Rear brakets 35000yen"

I wouldn't mind asking more about the 17" kit for you but like I said I think they're fed up that I've been asking them a lot of questions without really purchasing anything at this point so I don't think they're going to reply to me until I actually start purchasing haha

info@will-inc.com

this is their email address. They do usually take several days to get back to you but they do reply back to you in English which is good.

 

[cargen]

I've been trying to distinguish whether the calipers they use are the 996TT/C4s calipers or the regular C2/C2S/C4 calipers(unless there's a third variation of 996 calipers besides those two that I wasn't aware). Just purchasing the brackets+brake lines from them and sourcing the calipers locally can possibly make the upgrade less than $1k (without the rotors and the pads), hence I was asking them for the Porsche Part#'s of the calipers. Hmm.. (Maybe ask the porsche forum with that picture to see if they can tell which caliper that is?)

 

[Marc R]

A kit with 320mm rotors and 996 calipers would also have my interest

 

[cargen]

A kit with 320mm rotors and 996 calipers would also have my interest

Definitely email them and ask for a quote. Explain that you want a 996 caliper setup for 17 inch wheels. From my first email with them, they were willing to ship to the US so I don't see why they won't ship to Holland.

 

[Marc R]

I guess they won't sell the brackets seperately... but if this is too much of a problem i'll make my own brackets... Only thing is that I do not have the time for this

 

[alabbasi]

Do the later R129 LCA's interchnge with W124's. If so, I'll be parting out a 99 SL500 which has huge front brakes pretty soon.

 

[gsxr]

Do the later R129 LCA's interchnge with W124's. If so, I'll be parting out a 99 SL500 which has huge front brakes pretty soon.

Yes, that car has the "silver arrow" brakes, with calipers painted black. LCA's are the type needed for the 124 installation, but will probably need new rubber bushings and a new ball joint boot.

 

[KianLeong]

320mmx30mm is for Mercedes SL600 front rotor.. Which porshe caliper suits my car? 996 TT/C4s/C2/C2S/C4? Can show me some photo about this ? Plug and play or modified? Btw I use 17' inch wheel..

 

[cargen]

320mmx30mm is for Mercedes SL600 front rotor.. Which porshe caliper suits my car? 996 TT/C4s/C2/C2S/C4? Can show me some photo about this ? Plug and play or modified? Btw I use 17' inch wheel..

I believe there are 2 main 996 calipers; 996 c2/c4 and 996 c4s/tt calipers.
They never got back to me on which caliper is used for their conversion.

info@will-inc.com

tell them that you're interested in a 320mm 996 kit(which I was told should fit the 17" wheels) for e500e and they'll give you a quote. They're not the quickest to respond to emails but they can communicate in English and they're willing to ship worldwide at the buyer's cost. The kit includes the 996 calipers in question, brake lines, and adapters.

As stated above, I'm planning on pulling the trigger next summer so until then, I don't have any more info besides what I've written in this thread.

 

[cargen]

I've decided to go with a different route.. But I do remain that the 996 kit is still a very viable option.
This kit also does not involve any modifications to the knuckle for 92-93 cars so I have no reason to doubt the porsche kit above will either.

 

[ssaliaj]

If you want inexpensive no one has beaten my s600/ml430 rotor combination. 350mm IIRC.. Do more stopping then you would ever have a right to on the street!

Pedal feel is A OK, but going to I stall a SA/Late master to get some more rear bias.

I've already had the custom braided lines made... You'll want to ditch the dust shields...they look silly all cut up IMHO.
Plus, makes it easier to run ducting... Again, something I have a low cost option for that works Really well

Jono

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Hi. Sorry for bothering on such an old post. You mean w163 calipers will fit w124 ?

 

[jhodg5ck]

W220 S600 (late) Calipers
W163 Rotors, ML430.