Did Hartge push AMG to develop the 7L M120?

[weide1]

In 1991 Hartge introduced the E31 H1* at the IAA in Frankfurt. It was equiped with a 5L V12 quad turbo with 500 hp.
At the time AMG was still in the low 400 hp section.
Did the Hartge H1 trigger AMG to proceed 'as hell' with the 7L M120 with 500 and more hp?
Let alone the upcoming BMW M8 with even way over 500 hp.
Otherwise AMG would maybe have lost its place in the segment of luxury cars.

Note: Both H1 and M8 were cancelled.

*not to be confused with this E87 Hartge H1 model.

 

[weide1]

And did Aston Martin - in facto RS Williams - also push AMG to develop 500 hp engines?
Since there already was this one in 1990. And listed 510 bhp.

It seemed competition for M-B/AMG was tough around then.

 

[FD.]

A very romantic version of the story, but…

Back in those days, AMG was steadily working on unlocking the full potential of various Mercedes engines.
Eventually — perhaps after a very persuasive nudge from a long-standing client in the Middle East — they finally turned their attention to the M120.

In the end, the AMG V12 engine was a true product of engineering evolution — not a marketing response to “rival models.”
- We’d already mastered the art of adding exactly 1.0 litre to the M119 — are you telling me we wouldn't be able to make a 7+ litre M120?

p.s. The only company AMG likely paid any attention to in the 1990s was Brabus (but actually a couple of years later) — their wow-record achievements were simply impossible to ignore at the time.
As for the rest, they probably didn’t spark much interest… especially in a company already overloaded with joint development plans with Mercedes — and increasingly constrained by the corporate formalities of the Daimler-Benz AG superstructure.

p.p.s.
Of course, this isn't mentioned anywhere in the official AMG-45 book (and honestly, the whole book is too corporate and boring), but I personally think that the integration into the super-corporation prevented AMG from truly standing out in the mid-90s with their product lineup.
In the 80s, Hammers were kicking factory 911s and Ferraris’ butts (literally dominating magazine covers on all key markets), and then, gritting their teeth, AMG had to watch Brabus do the same thing in the 90s with envy and powerlessness…

 

[weide1]

A very romantic version of the story, but…

Back in those days, AMG was steadily working on unlocking the full potential of various Mercedes engines.
Eventually — perhaps after a very persuasive nudge from a long-standing client in the Middle East — they finally turned their attention to the M120.

In the end, the AMG V12 engine was a true product of engineering evolution — not a marketing response to “rival models.”
- We’d already mastered the art of adding exactly 1.0 litre to the M119 — are you telling me we wouldn't be able to make a 7+ litre M120?

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if AMG, or a spin-off company like MS or MKB, or both, were involved in the development of the M120 from the very beginning.

M-B originally had no intention of using a V12 in the BR140. They were 'playing' with the M160 V16 and the M216 W18. When competitor BMW came out with a V12 in 1986, M-B had to get down to earth. Fast. Enter AMG. But these are just my thoughts.

I still wonder why M-B was overwhelmed by the BMW V12 in 1986. BMW already had an experimental 4½ V12 in the E23 model. Showing up at the IAA in Frankfurt in 1979.

You can expect BMW to pull this trick again in a future model.

About AMG being involved in M120 from the beginning. One person wrote me this the other day:
"i know someone in the US who sold their early AMG R129 which had a built date prior to the introduction of the factory SL600 but had a V12".

Showing AMG was already in business with M120.

 

[FD.]

About AMG being involved in M120 from the beginning. One person wrote me this the other day:
"i know someone in the US who sold their early AMG R129 which had a built date prior to the introduction of the factory SL600 but had a V12".

Showing AMG was already in business with M120.

For nearly 25 years I follow all the comments from experts—and from the actual legends of those iconic years themselves—with the greatest respect and attention.


That said, there are a few nuances worth keeping in mind:

• Every person carries within them their own version of events, timelines, and cause-and-effect logic. (This becomes especially evident in the dozens of public, but conflicting origin stories surrounding MKB, Renntech, and even HWA).
• If someone was a "senior engineer" back in 1990 at the age of 35, that would make them 70+ today—with all the... natural caveats that come with it, no offense intended.
• Long ago, a British automotive industry expert (and here I’m being absolutely serious—no irony whatsoever!!!)—someone with vast experience and personal ties to Mercedes / AMG / hi-end tuners in the 1980s and 1990s, and someone I’ve worked with personally on multiple occasions—once signed off on an article about a “1 of 12 E60 Limited.” Ever since then, I’ve maintained a healthy skepticism when it comes to so-called “insider recollections.”

So let’s try to bring a bit of clarity to the timeline:

• When did the first 600SEL W140s arrive in the U.S.?
• When did the first 600SL R129s arrive in the U.S.?
• And approximately which month and year is considered the debut of the first AMG M120 7.0+ liter car? (And no, not to be confused with the R129 M119 6.0 or the W140 M120 6.0 with 440 ps powerkit)
  

 

[FD.]

p.s. At this point, from a chronological perspective, I have only one plausible explanation for that insider claim:
AMG either directly received from MB or managed to purchase one of the pre-production 600SL units… and later fitted it with their bodykit or 440 PS powerkit—or, possibly, even much later on, with the 7+-liter engine.

 

[weide1]

First month/year of AMG M120 7.0.
Difficult.
Via VIN i cannot see when the conversion took place.
This one is from 11/1992. But when the engine came in, i don't know.

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

 

[FD.]

First month/year of AMG M120 7.0.
Difficult.
Via VIN i cannot see when the conversion took place.
This one is from 11/1992. But when the engine came in, i don't know.

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

Thank you so much — I simply don’t have access to any other source of information at the moment.


The Mercedes Public Archive (yes, I’m aware it can be quite inaccurate at times) lists the W140 M120 production start
as pre-production series in 10/1990, with standard production beginning in 04/1991.
So even in the most basic scenario, AMG would have had roughly a year and a half from April 1991 to develop the 7.0.

 

[gsxr]

Is it just me that gets really annoyed when a Mercedes is claimed to be "Pagani Zonda powered"? The Zonda was introduced in 1999. NINETY NINE. Pagani should be bragging that their Zonda is AMG-powered, not the other way around. Also, has any R129 SL7x sold for over $1M? If so, I missed that memo.

This drivel gets >50k "likes"?

 

[FD.]

I just did a very quick search trying to find at least some concrete dates for the “big” M120s.

The only clearly documented fact I have on hand is that Brabus already had a W124 with a 6.9-liter engine at the IAA Show in September 1993.
– I’d assume that a W140 or R129 with the 6.9 engine (as well as M120 6.9 itself) likely appeared by Brabus at least a few months earlier.
– And back in those days, Brabus was, at least formally, operating at a greater distance from Mercedes engineering than AMG was.

 

[FD.]

Is it just me that gets really annoyed when a Mercedes is claimed to be "Pagani Zonda powered"? The Zonda was introduced in 1999. NINETY NINE. Pagani should be bragging that their Zonda is AMG-powered, not the other way around. Also, has any R129 SL7x sold for over $1M? If so, I missed that memo.

This drivel gets >50k "likes"?

View attachment 211910

It’s only natural that, in 2020–2025, an R129 described as Pagani Zonda-powered sees a notable boost in value —
whereas an additional AMG-powered footnote doesn’t exactly work wonders for a Pagani Zonda’s valuation.

Chronologically, it may sound absurd —
but when it comes to boosting the perceived value of AMG models, any storytelling will do… as long as it works.


LOL, I just quickly scrolled through the feed on that Instagram account — and, well, let’s just say it leaves a rather interesting impression.

 

[FD.]

If I may, let me provide a quick update.
(Please do stop me when I start getting annoying with all this nonsense!)

In an ad by Brabus published in world famous German Auto Motor und Sport on March 6, 1992 (!!!), the main hero was a W140 fitted with... a 6.9-liter engine.

Apologies for the tiny image size.

 

[weide1]

Is it just me that gets really annoyed when a Mercedes is claimed to be "Pagani Zonda powered"?

It's just you. Same goes for CLK GTR that several still call the flying Mercedes. Don't let it bother you.
Or alleged R129 SL7x sold for over $1M. This is bragging talk. Not to be taken seriously.

On the other hand, i get annoyed a bit when owners of rare cars post images on social media. But then suddenly stop posting further details. Like they got something to hide!
Supercar Advocates did. And previously DK Engineering. They sold it to them. Looks like the SL72 is not a real SL72.

This guy did too. Not answering questions. Then why post in public?

@FD. Not annoying at all. I like your enthusiasm. Although March 6, 1992 is hard to read, it is possible. Since here it shows first of April 1992.

 

[FD.]

@FD. Not annoying at all. I like your enthusiasm. Although March 6, 1992 is hard to read, it is possible. Since here it shows first of April 1992.

...and here is the cover of the issue with the date.

Funny that the magazine from France was way ahead of all the German big titles with this 'first drive impressions' Brabus 6.9 story.
Especially considering the huge advertising modules that Brabus ordered in each issue of AMuS.

 

[weide1]

Here the Brabus 6.9 is mentioned. 19/1991. Since magazine is every two weeks, it's week 38.

I sometimes forget what tests i have. In this IAA-Extra both Hartge H1 and H3 are mentioned. Also Carlsson 300 SE 3.6 (3525 cm³) with 272 PS. This is a tuned M104.990 engine. Quite rare.
I'm glad i downloaded lots of tests of tuningarchive.ru and tuninghistory.ru, just before they announced to stop. In summer 2015.

No AMG M120 yet. Maybe Mercedes High Command didn't allow Aufrecht to do this. So as not to get in the way of the factory models.
After all AMG was just part of the company. No questions asked. Just do as you're told.

When Brabus and other tuning companies got successful with the M120, AMG finally had to ofcourse.

 

[FD.]

When Brabus and other tuning companies got successful with the M120, AMG finally had to ofcourse.

.... so now it lokks more and more like AMG 7.0 was inspired by not Hartge quadturbo (quadturbo who?), but by Brabus 6.9

 

[weide1]

.... so now it lokks more and more like AMG 7.0 was inspired by not Hartge quadturbo (quadturbo who?), but by Brabus 6.9

You are right. As you already wrote in #3.

My opening phrase was more of a clickbait. I tend to grow in a topic, and learn along the way.
Digging in this amazing history is great fun. Thank you for assistance.

 

[FD.]

So — in March 1991, Mercedes debuts the 600 SEL in Geneva, in April they deliver the first units to customers… and just half a year later, Brabus already has a 6.9-liter engine ready to go.
An engine which — with all its later iterations — went on to earn an undisputed place in the all-time Hall of Fame of German tuning history.

…which makes it all the more satisfying to note that, by 2025, the only true heavyweight still tuning modern Mercedes engines from that early '90s German companies is none other than… Brabus.

 

[weide1]

in the all-time Hall of Fame of German tuning history.

In fact, I consider any engine that has been tuned - preferably by increasing the displacement - to be suitable candidates for the Hall of Fame.
For me it's not a contest of the biggest and the fastest. It's about craftmanship and certainly about rarity.
The Oettinger 3.1 M103 imho is just as interesting as the 7.6 M120 RennTech. The Schulze 3.5 V6 from Alfa Romeo 164 is just as nice as the 560 PS Racing Dynamics 7½ V12 in the Rolls Royce Phantom VII.

 

[FD.]

In fact, I consider any engine that has been tuned - preferably by increasing the displacement - to be suitable candidates for the Hall of Fame.
For me it's not a contest of the biggest and the fastest. It's about craftmanship and certainly about rarity.

Naturally, all legendary engines are absolutely equal…

But it’s hard to ignore the historical weight behind them.
After all, it was the enlarged M120 that didn’t just boost Brabus’ reputation… it practically turned a very successful company into a superempire.

 

[weide1]

Speaking of M120. I find conflicting information. In particular image 3. I read 1986.
Instagram link

But in the two attached images it reads 8/1988. As found in this link. Section Modellgeschichte:
Alles über die Mercedes-Benz S-Klasse der Baureihe W140

In section Entwicklung i also read "Auch der 5.6 Liter große Vierventil-Achtzyinder, der ursprünglich das neue Topmodell antreiben sollte".
However, mb140_school writes about a 5.6 V12 that was to become the top motorization. Via Whatsapp.

And what about CIS and LH-Jetronic? All three images seem alike.

 

[Markus-MD]

My stand of Knowledge was or is. The K-Jetronik aka Cis Injektion was Terrible for Syncronisation and Fuel Consumption.And The Package was too big for later Adaption.w126 as Muleto was very tight.
And an m117 5,6 with Quad cams has more Power as this v12 .So you have an Marketing Problem for the V12.
also he Swichted to the LH Motronic.In this Time has BMW lauchend /Developt the M70 5 Liter with 300ps .and Merc say no way. Also cam the 6Liter m120 with 300KW =408PS .and this is not going with mechanical Injektion .And all BMW derivats of the M70 never climbed this Dates for Power output.
Mercedes the best or nothing. This was an good Decade for all of us

 

[hAMGurger]

First month/year of AMG M120 7.0.
Difficult.
Via VIN i cannot see when the conversion took place.
This one is from 11/1992. But when the engine came in, i don't know.

View this content on Instagram

View this content on Instagram

Holy shit this guy's forearms look like they displace 6.9-liters: