400E E420 Rim Question

[smoker]

Hello

Thanks for reading and taking the time out to answer.

I'm in the process of restoring my 1995 E420. One of the changes that I'll doing is changing the suspension from stock to installing 500E sway bars and 600SL rotors, etc.

I'm being offered Lorinser R80 rims - 16x8 ET33 with new 205/55R16 tires on them.

I've Googled everything that I could find, including going through 124performance website, but couldn't find anything that confirms that these rims with ET33 will fit perfectly. I don't want to roll the fenders or have any rubbing. The car also has OEM splash guards fitted.

Tire calculator website says the following -

"Inner rim is 4mm closer to the suspension strut. The outer rim will poke out 34.1mm more than before."

Can somebody more knowledgeable than me please tell me in plain English what it means and should I buy these rims?

TIA.

 

[luckymike]

I’m sure the pros will give you a complete answer but in short, those rims won’t properly fit your car. The offset you’re looking at will place the rims too far outboard.

 

[smoker]

I’m sure the pros will give you a complete answer but in short, those rims won’t properly fit your car. The offset you’re looking at will place the rims too far outboard.

Thanks for reply, luckymike

 

[Gatorblue92]

I think that would likely rub in the front.

This is my setup but I'm lowered and its very close all around but no rub.

Front - 17 x 7.5", ET35 with 215/45ZR-17

Rear - 17 x 8.5", ET30 with 225/45ZR-17

 

[Duh_Vinci]

I'm obviously not as familiar with W124, but my old W201 (and I believe the front fenders and the bumpers mount in a very very similar way), I've modified a little for wider wheel/offset, it was rubbing a little only at the front arch, where the fender/bumper meets. If memory serves me right (its been many many years ago), Brabus and AMG use to sell a fender "extension" kit, but I've used a set of nylon spacers from the local hardware store, about 5-7mm of clearance is all there was needed, and worked really well. Can you do something like that if needs to be to W124?

Regards,
D

EDIT, found a "visual" on non .036 Widening the front fenders with AMG spacers

 

[smoker]

I think that would likely rub in the front.

This is my setup but I'm lowered and its very close all around but no rub.

Front - 17 x 7.5", ET35 with 215/45ZR-17

Rear - 17 x 8.5", ET30 with 225/45ZR-17

Thanks @Gatorblue92.

I should mention that I made an error in the original post and that I'm installing 600SL 320mmx30mm rotors (corrected), that I bought from gsxr.

The other choices that I have and like are Oz Opera and/or Lorinser R90, both 16x7.5 ET35.

I'm unsure about lowering the car. @gsxr had the different rim sizes on his website and I read somewhere on peachparts or so, but confused whether these will fit, as neither mentioned ET35, and I can't find that info again

Your thoughts on 16x7.5 with ET35 and 600SL rotors?

TIA.

 

[kegmankipp]

With the big brakes you are going to need to look at 17” wheel options with lots of room behind the face for the brakes to clear.

The AMG fender spacer kit is NLA but you can create one at Home Depot for cheap with the measurements on the w124performance pics. Well worth the effort.

 

[smoker]

With the big brakes you are going to need to look at 17” wheel options with lots of room behind the face for the brakes to clear.

The AMG fender spacer kit is NLA but you can create one at Home Depot for cheap with the measurements on the w124performance pics. Well worth the effort.

Thanks for replying.

If I go with @Gatorblue92 setup of 17x7.5" ET35 all around, I'll still need the spacer kit?

Cheers

 

[kegmankipp]

Thanks for replying.

If I go with @Gatorblue92 setup of 17x7.5" ET35 all around, I'll still need the spacer kit?

Cheers

Look at w124 performance site for links for installing AMG wheels. It shows different widths and offsets and what they did when putting bigger wheels on the cars. Great info (thanks gsxr!)

I’m running AMG Aero 3 piece17x7.5 et37 with 225/45 on 034. Fronts needed 3mm spacers to clear the 94 034 calipers! I installed the fender spacer kit and bought the Eastman roller and rolled the lips per the AMG specs.

No rubbing ever, even when mobbing very fast on big dips and turns. Anything wider and or further out and i feel like it would rub.

 

[Jlaa]

....installing 500E sway bars and 600SL rotors, etc.

Thanks for replying.

If I go with @Gatorblue92 setup of 17x7.5" ET35 all around, I'll still need the spacer kit?

Cheers

I’m running AMG Aero 3 piece17x7.5 et37 with 225/45 on 034. Fronts needed 3mm spacers to clear the 94 034 calipers! I installed the fender spacer kit and bought the Eastman roller and rolled the lips per the AMG specs.

No rubbing ever, even when mobbing very fast on big dips and turns. Anything wider and or further out and i feel like it would rub.

@smoker, what is the thickness of the 600SL rotor hat relative to the stock E420 brake rotor hat in the front?

Note that @kegmankipp, with his 3mm spacers, is effectively running 7.5" wide wheels with ET+34 effective offset. I believe @kegmankipp is using OE stock brakes.

@smoker your proposal is to use 7.5" wide wheels with ET+35 offset. If the 600SL rotor hats are 1mm thicker than stock E420 rotor hats, then your offset would be the same as @kegmankipp's offset. If the 600SL rotor has are more than 1mm thicker, then your front wheels would stick out more.

Also --- note that @kegmankipp needed that 3mm spacer (which gave him 34mm effective offset) for the back of the wheel spokes to clear the front brake calipers. @smoker what kind of brake caliper are you using in the front? Looking at a picture of a Lorinser R80 wheel, it doesn't look as if spoke-clearance for calipers is very different between an R80 wheel and an AMG Aero 3 piece wheel (that @kegmankipp is using).

 

[gsxr]

I'm being offered Lorinser R80 rims - 16x8 ET33 with new 205/55R16 tires on them.

I've Googled everything that I could find, including going through 124performance website, but couldn't find anything that confirms that these rims with ET33 will fit perfectly. I don't want to roll the fenders or have any rubbing. The car also has OEM splash guards fitted.

That wheel size is nearly identical to 500E wheels (16x8.0 ET34) . The 205 tire will be slightly stretched, which will help clearance. As to "fit perfectly", it depends on your definition, and if ride height will remain stock or if you lower the car. At stock height I doubt you'll have problems, if lowered it might be close to some areas of the fenders, some of the time. At a minimum I would add the fender spacers since those are bolt-on and easy to install. If necessary, roll the fender lips. I know you don't want to, but that's what AMG specified - in varying amounts - for any wheels wider than stock.

ALSO, the wheel width/offset numbers do not guarantee clearance between the brake caliper face and the wheel! The only way to find out is a test fitment. The 320mm front calipers will stick out a few mm further than your stock 294mm calipers, and as Jlaa noted, the 320mm rotors have 2mm thicker hats which will push the wheels out 2mm vs your 294mm rotors. Lots of small differences here, difficult to say what works until you try.

 

[smoker]

That wheel size is nearly identical to 500E wheels (16x8.0 ET34) . The 205 tire will be slightly stretched, which will help clearance. As to "fit perfectly", it depends on your definition, and if ride height will remain stock or if you lower the car. At stock height I doubt you'll have problems, if lowered it might be close to some areas of the fenders, some of the time. At a minimum I would add the fender spacers since those are bolt-on and easy to install. If necessary, roll the fender lips. I know you don't want to, but that's what AMG specified - in varying amounts - for any wheels wider than stock. ALSO, the wheel width/offset numbers do not guarantee clearance between the brake caliper face and the wheel! The only way to find out is a test fitment. The 320mm front calipers will stick out a few mm further than your stock 294mm calipers, and as Jlaa noted, the 320mm rotors have 2mm thicker hats which will push the wheels out 2mm vs your 294mm rotors. Lots of small differences here, difficult to say what works until you try.

@gsxr

Thanks.

Once I buy the Lorinsers, I don't think that I'll be able to return them back .

Going through your various posts, would either of these 2 work better -

8 hole from W210 - 16x7.5 ET41 with 215/55/16 or
8 hole from R129 - 16x8 ET 34

without me having to roll fenders, add spacers, etc and still allow me the option of lowering if I want to?

Thanks for reading.

 

[smoker]

@Jlaa

Thanks.

They're 320x30 front and 300x22 rear.

I may go in for ATE calipers, etc front with Bosch calipers etc for rear.

Thanks for replying.

Cheers

 

[northNH]

On my 420 I have:

"8 hole from W210 - 16x7.5 ET41 with 215/55/16", correct Sportline lowering springs and the thinnist spring pads.

No spacers, no fender rolling, no rubbing in any situation, no complaints.

 

[smoker]

On my 420 I have:

"8 hole from W210 - 16x7.5 ET41 with 215/55/16", correct Sportline lowering springs and the thinnist spring pads.

No spacers, no fender rolling, no rubbing in any situation, no complaints.

Thanks man @northNH

Can I please have the part # for the springs and the pads?

I'm assuming that you have the 320x30 & 300x22 setup. Lowered too? A pic works be really appreciated

Cheers

 

[gsxr]

Going through your various posts, would either of these 2 work better -

8 hole from W210 - 16x7.5 ET41 with 215/55/16 or
8 hole from R129 - 16x8 ET 34

without me having to roll fenders, add spacers, etc and still allow me the option of lowering if I want to?

The narrower wheel with higher numerical offset will provide much better clearance to the fenders, by around 14-15mm or so.

On my 420 I have: "8 hole from W210 - 16x7.5 ET41 with 215/55/16", correct Sportline lowering springs and the thinnist spring pads.

No spacers, no fender rolling, no rubbing in any situation, no complaints.

"No rubbing": I hear this a lot on all the MB forums for any given wider-than-stock combination, but remember that there are a LOT of variables. The same setup on a different car, with a different driver, in different conditions, may result in minor rubbing when pushed hard. I've had aggressive fitments that were fine 99.44% of the time but if pushed to the traction limits on a cloverleaf, or under hard trail braking, that last 0.66% would result in rubbing at the front tires. Ditto if you hit a mid-corner bump.

The rubbing tends to occur when the wheel is turned in a corner, not going in a straight line. Add suspension compression with the wheel cranked and that will be the real test. This is why AMG recommended the strut travel limiter, btw. As a final variable, different tire makes/models have different shoulder shapes. Tire A and Tire B may be identical sizes, but one may rub while the other does not, when clearances are tight. YMMV, #grouphug, etc etc.

Can I please have the part # for the springs and the pads?

I'm assuming that you have the 320x30 & 300x22 setup. Lowered too? A pic works be really appreciated

The 034 Sportline spring/strut/etc part numbers have been posted on the forum in the past. Thinnest pads are not what should automatically be installed. You need to adjust front/rear ride height and install appropriate thickness pads. Every car is different, each factory spring part number come in 2 different lengths which is what the pads were meant to compensate for, and the rear Sportline factory springs are available in 3 different lengths to accommodate different options on a given car. There's not a 1-size-fits-all solution.

Oh, and AFAIK @northNH has stock brakes on his car... not the 600SL setup.

 

[Jlaa]

The only way to find out is a test fitment. The 320mm front calipers will stick out a few mm further than your stock 294mm calipers, and as Jlaa noted, the 320mm rotors have 2mm thicker hats which will push the wheels out 2mm vs your 294mm rotors. Lots of small differences here, difficult to say what works until you try.

Just out of curiosity (and maybe no answer until this is actually tried in person) - is there enough hub left on the w124.034's front hubs to engage the aforementioned wheels after using 2mm thicker-rotor-hats?

When I put 334x32 front discs on my car, the increased rotor hat thickness made it such that 3mm spacers were just on the margins of acceptability for my front wheels. Kinda sorta maybe enough "meat" for the wheels to engage the hub for hubcentricity. Kinda. So I deleted those 3mm spacers.

Another interesting tidbit --- I recently tried to fit 3mm spacers on my brand new 2021 Toyota. 3mm spacers DEFINITELY do not fit my 2021 Toyota ---- not enough front hub left for the wheels to engage the hub!!!

I think this is a situation where there will be trial and error.

 

[gsxr]

Just out of curiosity (and maybe no answer until this is actually tried in person) - is there enough hub left on the w124.034's front hubs to engage the aforementioned wheels after using 2mm thicker-rotor-hats?

Yes. The 034 and 036 hubs are identical. The 300mm, 320mm and 334mm front rotors all have a 7.5mm thick hat. These thicker rotor hats leave 2mm less center bore depth available for the wheel to grab, but it's still adequate. (However as you noted, there is very little left if you add a 3mm spacer.)

It's the smaller brakes (295, 294, 284mm fronts) which have the thinner 5.5mm hats. This also affects the "turns" of lug bolts by ~1 turn, btw; as would any spacers (3mm spacer needs 3-5mm longer lug bolts).

 

[smoker]

The narrower wheel with higher numerical offset will provide much better clearance to the fenders, by around 14-15mm or so.

As a final variable, different tire makes/models have different shoulder shapes. Tire A and Tire B may be identical sizes, but one may rub while the other does not, when clearances are tight.

@gsxr - Thanks for replying and the advice.

So, would you suggest that I can safely go for W210 16x7.5J ET41 part # 2104 with 215/55/16 on them?

Cheers

 

[gsxr]

So, would you suggest that I can safely go for W210 16x7.5J ET41 part # 2104 with 215/55/16 on them?

Tentatively, yes. This setup with a rounded-sidewall tire should have minimal clearance issues. I'd still add the fender spacers and consider the strut travel limiter, since you'll be doing a ton of other work anyway, and these are reversible mods. It's unlikely you would need to roll the fender lips, assuming you don't autocross.

The remaining question is if these wheels will clear the 320mm Ate calipers. I think they should. If northNH could somehow measure the approximate space between the back of the wheel and front of the caliper (through one of the 8 holes), that would help. As mentioned in your Ben's Whirled thread (link), the 320mm caliper face will stick out approximately 5mm further than your current/stock 294mm caliper face. So for a given wheel measured with stock calipers, you'd want at least 7mm air gap (preferably more) if you hope to have the 320mm calipers clear the same wheel.

 

[smoker]

I think they should. If northNH could somehow measure the approximate space between the back of the wheel and front of the caliper (through one of the 8 holes), that would help.

Paging @northNH

 

[northNH]

Re: Gap betwixt my stock caliper and back of 7.5 x 16 ET41 wheel = 20mm.

Based on my clear(er) notes rather than my foggy memory, the fronts still have 13mm spring pads as specified, no change planned.
Rears also with specified 13’s; plans for 8mm long delayed…The back oughta be a bit lower as I never have any weight in rear.
For now two 70# tube sand sacks over the rear wheels are otherwise close to perfect, for me…

 

[gsxr]

Re: Gap betwixt my stock caliper and back of 7.5 x 16 ET41 wheel = 20mm.

Excellent info - thank you! That means it's 99%+ likely the 320mm Ate calipers will clear.

 

[smoker]

Excellent info - thank you! That means it's 99%+ likely the 320mm Ate calipers will clear.

@gsxr & @northNH

Thank you very much.

I'll place the order for these rims.

Tires - Decided to go with Continental 215/55Z R16.

My driving is spirited. Mostly NJ/MA to CT and back, 4 or 5 times/yr. Upcoming drive is to MD - every week for the next 6 months. Local CT driving all be 2% overall. I'm away at sea for atleast 8 months/yr - so no driving.

 

[Quick4door]

Saw this and wanted to give you some context with 17’s and the 334mm front setup. 17x7.5 +35 clk500 wheel, 225/45/17 conti extreme contact, silver arrow rotors, r129 brembos. No spacers. Eibach springs and bilstein b8. .036 alignment. Does not rub anywhere Any time. I have approx 50k miles on this setup with zero issues.

 

[gsxr]

Saw this and wanted to give you some context with 17’s and the 334mm front setup. 17x7.5 +35 clk500 wheel, 225/45/17 conti extreme contact, silver arrow rotors, r129 brembos. No spacers. Eibach springs and bilstein b8. .036 alignment. Does not rub anywhere Any time. I have approx 50k miles on this setup with zero issues.

That wheel setup (7.5 ET35) & tire combo is fairly moderate, and I'd expect near zero rubbing under normal driving conditions. However without fender spacers, strut shaft spacer, or rolling the fender lip... this setup could rub at the fender lip and/or cladding while turning under full suspension compression (i.e., trail braking, or hitting a bump mid-corner near limits of traction).

Few people push this hard on the street though. The lower the car is, the more this is a concern. This car looks low - I'd wild guess around 13.5" from wheel center to fender lip. (?) Adding fender spacers, strut shaft spacer, & lip rolling will eliminate issues. Having the appropriate strut shaft stop buffer can help. Tire sidewall shape can make a big difference as well.

Rubbing while turning/compressed is much more of a problem at wheel widths of 8.0+. This is why the AMG documents show additional modifications needed as wheels get to 8.0 or 8.5 wide up front.

 

[Jlaa]

That wheel setup (7.5 ET35) & tire combo is fairly moderate, and Id expect near zero rubbing under normal driving conditions. However without fender spacers, strut shaft spacer, or rolling the fender lip... this setup could rub at the fender lip and/or cladding while turning under full suspension compression (i.e., trail braking, or hitting a bump mid-corner near limits of traction).

Few people push this hard on the street though. The lower the car is, the more this is a concern. (snip)

Pushing hard ……… or steep hills. A set up that rubs when pushing very hard on flat land can also rub when driving moderately on steep hills.

 

[Quick4door]

I did space out my front bumper with the AMG spacer kit and admit this car doesn’t get pushed terribly hard- it’s sporty but not hard core. The rear wheels are 8.5 with a 245/40/17- I did have to roll the fender lips a little to keep them from rubbing with rear seat passengers. I tried installing 10mm wheel spacers in the front, but due to the design of the hubs they didn’t allow the wheel to be hub centric so I took them off.

 

[gsxr]

I did space out my front bumper with the AMG spacer kit...

That is a BIG help. Any mods like this need to be mentioned when explaining "no rubbing". Adding the spacers at the bottom of the fender helps as well.

and admit this car doesn’t get pushed terribly hard- it’s sporty but not hard core. The rear wheels are 8.5 with a 245/40/17- I did have to roll the fender lips a little to keep them from rubbing with rear seat passengers.

That is a much more aggressive fitment in the rear, especially with the common ET30 offset. Fender lips usually need to be rolled flat or pushed out. Tire sidewall shape can be the difference between no-rub and rub-like-crazy.

I tried installing 10mm wheel spacers in the front, but due to the design of the hubs they didn’t allow the wheel to be hub centric so I took them off.

Don't add spacers up front unless you want to create problems with rubbing. Installing a 10mm spacer would be very similar to an 8.5", ET35 wheel. Not a good idea without additional mods.