E60 Spring Replica

[TimL]

All, I just bought an original MB NOS front E60 spring (HWA 124-320-15-30) and an MB NOS rear spring (HWA 124-320-03-13) from Jonathan in Germany and I will attempt to find a supplier who can replicate these to complete my set and potentially offer a replica group buy for anyone who is interested.

Das Auto Ganz in Japan is offering replica sets already, so this wouldn't be unique, but their spring rate is ever so slightly different from the original AMG rates and I want to see if I can find someone in the U.S. as the logistics from Japan is not ideal to my mind.

Anyway, long story short, if anyone has any ideas/leads for high quality spring experts who might be up to replicate these, please respond to this post, so I can get the process started in January. Also, post here if you are potentially interested in a group buy so I can talk quantities/pricing with the vendor.

 

[gsxr]

Thanks for working on these reproductions, Tim! I think I have a drawing and some specs for the front spring, but I've never seen that data for the rears. It would be great to have you confirm the measurements as well.

Do you know why the Japan springs were changed from the original, and what the cost is (including delivery to USA) for the Japan units?

I might be interested in a set depending on the cost.

 

[gerryvz]

Hi Tim, I would be interested in a set as long as they hew identically to the original HWA E60 spec.

 

[TimL]

Thanks for working on these reproductions, Tim! I think I have a drawing and some specs for the front spring, but I've never seen that data for the rears. It would be great to have you confirm the measurements as well.

Do you know why the Japan springs were changed from the original, and what the cost is (including delivery to USA) for the Japan units?

I might be interested in a set depending on the cost.

Dave, the Das Auto Ganz website is a bit of a mess and has no immediate link to the springs. I was told to contact info@4-leaves.com as this guy is in charge of selling them. Don't know what pricing is, but send an email and see how it goes.

Check out Eno's post on the topic of spring rates (original vs. Das Auto Ganz replica's) (post #56, click here, pasted below):

"The springs on this car as per photos are made in Japan by a known and famous auto parts company called Toyoshima.​

They are made for a garage called DasAutoGanz and they are stamped “DAS AMG SPEC” as per the garage’s owner request to Toyoshima company.​

The springs are made exactly on the springs of AMG W124 E60 specifications.​

“Das AMG SPEC’s Toyoshima springs rate specifications are:​

Front: 9.8kgf/mm​

Rear: 8.8kgf/mm​

The original MB W124 E60 AMG springs specs are:​

Front: 10kgf/mm​

Rear: 9kgf/mm​

I have purchased the same set of springs for my 1992 500E Midnight Blue.​

I noticed the word “SPEC” on the springs and I am sure that those are the springs so called brand."​

Maybe the difference in spring rate isn't significant enough, but I want to see if I can get something built here in the U.S.

Any ideas/leads on high quality potential suppliers would be highly appreciated

 

[ccrelan]

Maybe these guys:

Hyperco | High-Performance Coil Springs & Suspension Spring Components

High-performance coil springs, racing springs & more. Hyperco has a winning legacy in motorsports & uses the same technology for off-road & street parts.

www.hypercoils.com

 

[TimL]

Maybe these guys:

Hyperco | High-Performance Coil Springs & Suspension Spring Components

High-performance coil springs, racing springs & more. Hyperco has a winning legacy in motorsports & uses the same technology for off-road & street parts.

www.hypercoils.com

Very cool, thank you @ccrelan I will look into those guys

 

[ArauzMotoring]

I would like to see Swift springs manufacture a version of the AMG springs for our cars. They are a Japanese company, however. Hyperco is a good alternative. Hope they can provide positive feedback!

 

[thebrinksman]

Look forward to hearing if you find someone here. @5thscaleracer know anyone?

 

[5thscaleracer]

Look forward to hearing if you find someone here. @5thscaleracer know anyone?

I know a company who will do custom springs based on request. Located in So Cal.

MOQ is 100 springs each.

So thats enough for 50 cars.

Estimated price is $110.00 per spring +/- $20.00. So it’s safe to say price would be $440.00 to $560.00 price range.

Only issue is who ever wants to get these springs done must understand that there is liability involved.

 

[Matin]

Interested. Thanks

 

[Jlaa]

Hi Tim, I would be interested in a set as long as they hew identically to the original HWA E60 spec.

Is there a benefit to using these springs on an E500E? Perhaps a tad stiffer …. Are they lower?

 

[gsxr]

Is there a benefit to using these springs on an E500E? Perhaps a tad stiffer …. Are they lower?

Yes! Stiffer & lower. AMG docs claim 10mm lower (near perfect, IMO) and an unknown amount stiffer vs stock.

My beef with most other 036 lowering springs (primarily H&R, the only option commonly available in USA) is they lower waaaay too much in the front, and not quite enough in the rear. Makes for a lopsided stance. I know others disagree, so this is just my $0.02 and you get what you pay for, lol...

 

[gerryvz]

Slightly lower and slightly stiffer, yes.

 

[gerryvz]

Years ago I bought a brand new set of H&Rs from a forum member. Never put them on my car (too low) and eventually resold them. I’ve been waiting for years for a truE AMG or equivalent spec set.

 

[Jlaa]

How do rear E60 springs compared to rear E500 Limited springs, since those already are supposed to be a tad lower? Just curious.

For what it is worth - I find the stock suspension to be near perfect - it suits the character of the car well.

 

[gsxr]

How do rear E60 springs compared to rear E500 Limited springs, since those already are supposed to be a tad lower? Just curious.

I've never had E60 rear springs in hand to measure, and have had to rely on data from other people... but assuming the specs I've been given are accurate, the E60 rear springs should be a fair amount stiffer. Hard to compare the ride height off spring specs, but given that the Limiteds are already a bit lower (unspecified amount) and AMG docs indicate 10mm lower for E60, I'd guess they are similar height? E60 could be a smidge less maybe.

For what it is worth - I find the stock suspension to be near perfect - it suits the character of the car well.

For a highway cruiser, absolutely, but it does sit just a little tall. Dropping 10mm would just just what Hans Werner ordered.

 

[szvook]

I find the stock suspension to be near perfect - it suits the character of the car well.

That was my initial thought as well, when I just got my whip. But in time, I felt the height of the car and gaps in the fenders from the flares were a bit out of place, with stock 16” wheels. I played around with using thinner spring pads first and although it made a bit of a difference, it still was not quite what I was looking for. Once I got wider meat in the front and rear, the look got better but the height was still too much. But all of that changed with the Brabus springs. They lowered the car just right imho and give the car the kind of stance I was looking for without looking slammed. With 1 bump spring pads, my whip looks just right. The ride does feel a bit stiffer, but not it’s not unbearable. It feels much more planted and does not float as much as it did before at higher speeds. If the AMG springs are the same height as the Brabus springs, the car will look great.

 

[JC220]

My 036 came with full E60 suspension, it is fantastic. Handles like a go kart and never bottoms out or rubs on ramps etc despite being lower than standard. It is infact the best handing mercedes I have.

Depending on price level I would be interested in obtaining a spare replica set of springs if a group buy should materialise.

 

[Markus-MD]

me too.how is the range for a set or two??

 

[TimL]

I know a company who will do custom springs based on request. Located in So Cal.

MOQ is 100 springs each.

So thats enough for 50 cars.

Estimated price is $110.00 per spring +/- $20.00. So it’s safe to say price would be $440.00 to $560.00 price range.

Only issue is who ever wants to get these springs done must understand that there is liability involved.

Can you elaborate @5thscaleracer? You’re saying that if I were to get a company to replicate these and then enabled peeps to join a group buy for them, that I’d be on the hook if anything happened to the group buy peeps? Would be interested to get more details on this…

If that’s the consensus though then I won’t be opening this up to folks. I’ll just try to get two springs replicated to be installed in my own car and be done. Last thing I need in my life is random legal issues haunting me ‍

 

[Markus-MD]

Really iam little bit sad.Normaly we are here in Germany the Headquater of idiots .Bad to hear that in America the same issues.Where is the Problem for remanufactoring for privat and not street legal use only for race ,??
But i remember me to the last group buy from ntrepid was in first wont have have please please and then oh long time i have fear and so on please give the money back. And the work from ntrepid was FANSTAIC.
maybe an not official group buy only for erxperts an solution??my Portoguisch frinds say . (only with cochones)
my offer stay .maybe gives an other solution. but this will i talk with PM only
mice weekend too all

 

[500AMM]

Can you elaborate @5thscaleracer? You’re saying that if I were to get a company to replicate these and then enabled peeps to join a group buy for them, that I’d be on the hook if anything happened to the group buy peeps? Would be interested to get more details on this…

If that’s the consensus though then I won’t be opening this up to folks. I’ll just try to get two springs replicated to be installed in my own car and be done. Last thing I need in my life is random legal issues haunting me ‍

Tim, this is pointing to what I mentioned in my PM to you yesterday. It is important to clarify the warranty conditions from the producer, and how the reproduced springs are sold. That means; if you personally order the reproduction and sell the springs, you are responsible for handling any warranty claims. But if you initiate and co-ordinate a Group-buy, the individual members are buying from the producer/supplier and the responsibility sits at them.

Next - springs on the same axle have matching characteristics within certain limits and sometimes they are tested and categorized in groups, just like MB does. So if you are going to get one spring made of each to complete a set, their final properties have to be matched with the two springs you already have. This is done by load testing which may lead to minor tweaks of the production parameters and reproduction until they match within acceptable limits. The producers are aware of this and they always aim for a direct hit on their first run, anyway it is at your cost.

 

[Draginev]

My 036 came with full E60 suspension, it is fantastic. Handles like a go kart and never bottoms out or rubs on ramps etc despite being lower than standard. It is infact the best handing mercedes I have.

Depending on price level I would be interested in obtaining a spare replica set of springs if a group buy should materialise.

I'm just curious if it does wear the tire at the inside? The lower the car goes, the more bent it will occur right?

 

[500AMM]

On a general basis with regard to safety - wheels, suspension, steering and brakes are the most important parts on a car. If a spring or swaybar snaps during driving it will likely happen when it is loaded, and the highest loads occures in curves. If that leads to a car crash, hitting a pedestrian or a bicyclist, where is the blame put? On the failing car of course, and the financial consequences starts counting for the owner. Something to keep in mind.

I have been working with welding & materials my entire life and I just have to say - because you cannot bend a steel or metal bar over your knee doesn't mean it has satisfactory quality for its intended purpose.

I'm just curious if it does wear the tire at the inside? The lower the car goes, the more bent it will occur right?

Yes, the camber i.e. vertical angle of the wheels will increase or lean more inwards at top, when lowering the car. That leads to increased tire wear at the inner shoulder so it is recommended to adjust the camber accordingly.

 

[JC220]

I'm just curious if it does wear the tire at the inside? The lower the car goes, the more bent it will occur right?

The conversion was done some years before I bought my 500E. So I am not sure of who set it up camber wise etc.

It does have the AMG springs and AMG branded correct HWA Shocks. I also believe the ARBs were updated too but haven't put a caliper on them.

My 500E has only covered a few thousand miles since I bought it 6 odd years ago so thus far I have not noticed any irregular wear on the tyres.

 

[gerryvz]

This whole idea of legal liability is very over-blown. Someone who coordinates the professional production of a batch of car suspension springs bears no legal liability in case a spring fails. These are professionally produced springs, so the manufacturer would be responsible for standing behind any defects and shoddy workmanship of the product.

I mean, what about 5SR's exhausts - would he be liable if something happened to someone's engine, or their catalytic converters? Difficult to say, and I would NOT think so, but you have to also assume a certain level of responsibility when you buy a product, particularly one made professionally. What about if the product is 100% fine, but the INSTALLATION of the product (which would have nothing to do with 5SR or a spring manufacturer) was faulty? Product Liability would NOT be the Group Buy coordinator's problem. He is just taking money and placing an order.

Is someone here gonna sue me because their $25 LCD ambient temp display went bad six months after I sold it to them?

With regard to past Group Buys here - a major contributing factor to having a successful Group Buy is communication with the participants. Particularly when relatively large amounts of money are involved, as would be with any potential spring purchase Group Buy, which would entail hundreds of dollars per order.

The issue with the last big Group Buy here on the forum was that the person driving it was extremely poor in communicating the status, and this went on for months and months on end. Numerous forum members had to prod the Group Buy coordinator into communicating, with honestly very little results of doing so. It got to the point where people were getting EXTREMELY anxious and angry about their money (often hundreds of dollars) seemingly vanishing into thin air -- particularly people overseas who had put money in. I was getting BOMBARDED by folks here with PMs to kindly do something about it (because as the forum owner, I guess I am responsible for Group Buys on my forum that go haywire) -- to the point where I finally made the decision to just offer a blanket, self-funded refund to forum members in the absence of the Group Buy proprietor doing or communicating anything. And yes, a couple of folks took me up on it, yet still (in the end) got their product. Talk about double-dipping !! But all that said, and all that water under the bridge, if someone signs up to coordinate a Group Buy, they should feel a HIGH level of urgency to communicate with the participants/contributors as to the status. Not going months upon months of silence, and not holding peoples' money for a year.

 

[500AMM]

This whole idea of legal liability is very over-blown. Someone who coordinates the professional production of a batch of car suspension springs bears no legal liability in case a spring fails. These are professionally produced springs, so the manufacturer would be responsible for standing behind any defects and shoddy workmanship of the product.

I mean, what about 5SR's exhausts - would he be liable if something happened to someone's engine, or their catalytic converters? Difficult to say, and I would NOT think so, but you have to also assume a certain level of responsibility when you buy a product, particularly one made professionally. What about if the product is 100% fine, but the INSTALLATION of the product (which would have nothing to do with 5SR or a spring manufacturer) was faulty? Product Liability would NOT be the Group Buy coordinator's problem. He is just taking money and placing an order.

Is someone here gonna sue me because their $25 LCD ambient temp display went bad six months after I sold it to them?

With regard to past Group Buys here - a major contributing factor to having a successful Group Buy is communication with the participants. Particularly when relatively large amounts of money are involved, as would be with any potential spring purchase Group Buy, which would entail hundreds of dollars per order.

The issue with the last big Group Buy here on the forum was that the person driving it was extremely poor in communicating the status, and this went on for months and months on end. Numerous forum members had to prod the Group Buy coordinator into communicating, with honestly very little results of doing so. It got to the point where people were getting EXTREMELY anxious and angry about their money (often hundreds of dollars) seemingly vanishing into thin air -- particularly people overseas who had put money in. I was getting BOMBARDED by folks here with PMs to kindly do something about it (because as the forum owner, I guess I am responsible for Group Buys on my forum that go haywire) -- to the point where I finally made the decision to just offer a blanket, self-funded refund to forum members in the absence of the Group Buy proprietor doing or communicating anything. And yes, a couple of folks took me up on it, yet still (in the end) got their product. Talk about double-dipping !! But all that said, and all that water under the bridge, if someone signs up to coordinate a Group Buy, they should feel a HIGH level of urgency to communicate with the participants/contributors as to the status. Not going months upon months of silence, and not holding peoples' money for a year.

I understand, but let me clarify what I tried to illuminate. Legal liability doesn't fall on the Group-Buy coordinator, but depending on how the purchase is performed he may be responsible for handling warranty claims, which is a different thing and what I said in my previous post. At least here in Norway the warranty rights on new items are only valid for the receipt holder - except stated otherwise in a sales contract. So if a Group-Buy coordinator does a private purchase from the producer and resell the items, he is still the receipt holder which means any warranty claims from end users have to be handled through him and forwarded to the producer.

People do always carry a major part of the responsibility for using a product. So in case 5SR's exhaust sat on a car suffering an engine damage, and the exhaust "could be" a playing factor, it would be really difficult to file a force majoure on him due to a multiple of playing factors, it would in fact be an impossible task.

I'm sure the replica E60 AMG springs will be fine!

.

 

[gerryvz]

I understand, but let me clarify what I tried to illuminate. Legal liability doesn't fall on the Group-Buy coordinator, but depending on how the purchase is performed he may be responsible for handling warranty claims, which is a different thing. At least here in Norway the warranty rights on new items are only valid for the receipt holder - except stated otherwise in a sales contract. So if a Group-Buy coordinator does a private purchase from the producer and resell the items, he is still the receipt holder which means any warranty claims from end users have to be handled through him and forwarded to the producer.

People do always carry a major part of the responsibility for using a product. So in case 5SR's exhaust sat on a car suffering an engine damage, and the exhaust "could be" a playing factor, it would be really difficult to file a force majoure on him due to a multiple of playing factors, it would in fact be an impossible task.

I'm sure the replica E60 AMG springs will be fine!

.

I'm not a legal expert, and don't profess to be one, but in any group buy we've done here, the documentation is generally shown up front in a table as to who ordered what, and how much was paid to the coordinator. Thus the coordinator is acting as a "proxy" for the buyer, and the flow of money is very clear as to the amount and intention of the purchase.

If I received a defective commercial product through a Group Buy here (such as the recent SLS tank group buy), I would not go through the coordinator (@Whitemamba23) to ask him for a warranty/replacement -- I would go directly to the manufacturer with the full knowledge and support of Whitemamba, to demand a replacement or refund. It is easy enough to prove that money was paid for the item. All a Group Buy Coordinator does is coordinate a purchase and take money, and pay it out (on behalf of the participants) to the seller/manufacturer.

No Group Buy coordinator here has ever served as a point of contact for warranty claims, nor SHOULD they, nor do I think WOULD they.

 

[500AMM]

I fully agree, you can go directly to the manufacturer with full knowledge and support from the coordinator.
No worries and all good.
.

 

[albdentist]

Tim,
Any movement on these ?
Sure would be nice ...

 

[TimL]

Reached out to the European supplier I had on my list this morning and hope to have a response sometime next week. I will post here again if and when I hear back. However, I am not sure that I will open this up as a group buy, as I don't want to deal with ANY liabilities (see various posts above).

 

[Jimbo]

My beef with most other 036 lowering springs (primarily H&R, the only option commonly available in USA) is they lower waaaay too much in the front, and not quite enough in the rear. Makes for a lopsided stance. I know others disagree, so this is just my $0.02 and you get what you pay for, lol...

This is what the varying thickness spring pads are for...

Not disagreeing you btw, my front was too low with #1 pads and the H&Rs....#2 pads evened it out nicely.

 

[gsxr]

This is what the varying thickness spring pads are for...

Not disagreeing you btw, my front was too low with #1 pads and the H&Rs....#2 pads evened it out nicely.

Forgot to mention, the 500E that I bought with H&R's had the thickest front pads (4pt) and thinnest rear pads (1pt), and it was STILL too low up front, and too high in the rear (even after SLS adjustment). The springs were stock / unmodified / uncut. I've see photos of other cars with H&R's that look similar.

My speculation is that H&R tried to design the 036 springs to drop a full inch or more, like they had with previous 124 spring sets. Problem is, the 036 is already much, much lower than every other 124 produced and it did not need an additional 1+ inch drop. The AMG E60 springs only offered a 10mm drop (~1/2") which is, IMO, about perfect for public road use.

 

[Jimbo]

I would say your car that you bought Dave wasn't right....

This is the .036 specific H&Rs with #2 pads in front and #1 pads out back with a properly adjusted SLS.

 

[Jimbo]

The AMG E60 springs only offered a 10mm drop (~1/2) which is, IMO, about perfect for public road use.

A half inch drop is easy with OE springs. Why change springs for such a minimal change? Change the spring pads. The difference with each pad thickness is 8mm. Who doesn't know this?

For USA cars that came with OE 4 bumps up front and 2 bumps pads out back...go euro spec with 3 bump and 1 bump pads and enjoy the 1/2" drop.

 

[gsxr]

A half inch drop is easy with OE springs. Why change springs for such a minimal change? Change the spring pads. The difference with each pad thickness is 8mm. Who doesnt know this?

Most 036 stock front pads are 1-point or 2-point (worldwide). At most you get an 8mm drop. Beyond that, you have to cut the stock front springs, or swap in different ones. In the rear, even with the thinnest pad and SLS adjustment, the rear is too high. Have to cut stock springs or swap in something else (like the Limited rears, now NLA) to lower the rear.

Also, the E60 springs are stiffer / higher spring rate, not just 10mm lower.

For USA cars that came with OE 4 bumps up front and 2 bumps pads out back...go euro spec with 3 bump and 1 bump pads and enjoy the 1/2 drop.

036's never had 4-bump pads up front from the factory.