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Electric car impact on fuel availabilty and pricing in future(?)
- Thread starter JC220
- Start date
I talked with the owners of these two Lightnings a couple months back.
Neither were using them as trucks. One was a family hauler and the other was a company vehicle for visiting work sites.
Both guys were reasonably satisfied with their vehicles, but complained about the price and the purchase process.
BTW, the pump between us was broken. lol
Neither were using them as trucks. One was a family hauler and the other was a company vehicle for visiting work sites.
Both guys were reasonably satisfied with their vehicles, but complained about the price and the purchase process.
BTW, the pump between us was broken. lol
I think you missed the humor that I was injecting in the conversation and turned it into part of a dismissive rant about California and Silicon Valley. I have similar observations about the culture and bubble here but I think one of the things I find fascinating about this is that this is a really interesting study in behavioral economics.
Economists like to pretend/believe that the world is full of rational people and that folks will do things completely rationally and in ways that will best serve their interests. However, in this context, we see time = money, so (absurdly) why would someone pay a premium to buy an expensive EV car (using more money) only to have that EV car cost them more money (cost them time with ridiculous public charging experiences) during the entire ownership experience?
Surely these EVs must confer other (really strong) advantages if they cost more upon purchase and again cost more than regular cars to own (costs lots of lots and wasted time.)
I posit that many such owners in Silicon Valley / NorCal embrace the prestige / fashion of these things and assign a high value to prestige / fashion that they are willing to spend more for these in terms of money and time. This could be a great study in behavioral economics --- not very different from the reasons why someone in the 1980s or 1990s would purchase, say, a Jaguar XJ6 or 500SEL when less costly and less time-consuming (maintenance / service) options (Lexus LS400) existed! Prestige! Particularly here -- prestige as being "tech forward / early adopter visionary." We humans certainly like to use automobiles to project our station in life .... and for that I am sure all of us are at least somewhat guilty of this!
This consumes time!
....
....
Why is it that all these electric recharging machines are so frequently broken in your experience? The Motor Trend article talks about broken chargers being quite common as well.
Conversely, if Tesla's superchargers have a lesser frequency of being broken (better public charging experience) ..... then I get their USP.
This is how much fuel I used after driving ~100 miles in the 10’ U-Haul box truck yesterday.
As i shared in an earlier post, I have been wasting my idle time watching the Out of Spec Reviews YouTube videos which is turning into a BEV charging channel. Kyle, who runs that channel, is on a mission to shame the charging infrastructure providers into compliance. So this guy Kyle and his wife are total BEV nerds and Kyle stated multiple times in recent videos "If you plan to Road Trip do NOT buy a CCS charging BEV, get a Tesla, or buy your favorite ICE vehicle". This from a total BEV nerd / fan / YouTuber. Gerry also has it right with the quote below.
If you want to watch a BEV network done right, check out this video of Kyle barnstorming the Autobahn in Germany in a Taycan with super smooth CCS fast charging experiences at every stop. The Germans do not tolerate crappy infrastructure. No wonder Mercedes is being forced to create their own branded charging network in the USA. If wealthy people are walking into USA Mercedes & Porsche dealerships expecting the experience people have in Germany, they are in for a rude surprise.
There are also plenty of Rivian roadtripping videos and on top of CCS charging network woes the Rivian fast charging software (for charging thermal management) is not yet sorted out.
I am a big fan of new vehicle car tech, love BEVs, but there is still a lot of infrastructure to sort out in the coming years.
Looks like Ace10's recent experience is spot on. Even though your BEV will map you to an Electrify America location, it can be a crapshoot when you arrive. (not the case with Tesla). I also didn't realize that VW created Electrify America as part of the their "diesel-gate" fiasco and the USA courts ordered them to create the EA network as punishment for "diesel-gate". That could explain why they setup the network but it runs like crap (although this is at odds with VW claimed BEV strategy).
If you want to watch a BEV network done right, check out this video of Kyle barnstorming the Autobahn in Germany in a Taycan with super smooth CCS fast charging experiences at every stop. The Germans do not tolerate crappy infrastructure. No wonder Mercedes is being forced to create their own branded charging network in the USA. If wealthy people are walking into USA Mercedes & Porsche dealerships expecting the experience people have in Germany, they are in for a rude surprise.
There are also plenty of Rivian roadtripping videos and on top of CCS charging network woes the Rivian fast charging software (for charging thermal management) is not yet sorted out.
I am a big fan of new vehicle car tech, love BEVs, but there is still a lot of infrastructure to sort out in the coming years.
I've seen these photos used to suggest that TSLA superchargers may be more reliable that their competitors due to engineering.
EA vs TSLA
I don't know enough about the TSLA machines (or EA for that matter) to tell if these are current generation designs, or not. Or if they're both are liquid cooled.
EA vs TSLA
I don't know enough about the TSLA machines (or EA for that matter) to tell if these are current generation designs, or not. Or if they're both are liquid cooled.
This is Audi's great idea:
www.audi-mediacenter.com
Personally, I don't want to linger any longer than absolutely necessary when charging the damn car. I don't need a clubhouse, or whatever this is supposed to be. Note that the cars are still mostly uncovered, which, after broken equipment, is probably the biggest complaint of BEV drivers.
World first: start of the Audi charging hub as an urban quick-charging concept
With the continuously growing number of electric models, the demands made on charging infrastructure is increasing. Today at the exhibition center in Nuremberg, the first Audi charging hub is going into operation as the only charging concept of its kind in the world. The Audi charging hub opens...
www.audi-mediacenter.com
Personally, I don't want to linger any longer than absolutely necessary when charging the damn car. I don't need a clubhouse, or whatever this is supposed to be. Note that the cars are still mostly uncovered, which, after broken equipment, is probably the biggest complaint of BEV drivers.
TSLA superchargers are vertically integrated. They own the SW, the HW, the install, the long term maintenance. They have also been doing it a lot longer than everyone else. I didn't realize that when it is stated that Tesla has a 7 to 10 year jump in tech relative to the rest of the BEV market that encompasses their charging network as well.
Ohhhh ok I get it. Being vertically integrated vs. having to integration / stree test this seeming nightmare of various components from various manufacturers (Electrify ‘Murica).
Ford being vertically integrated at River Rouge gave Ford huge margin advantages which allowed them to sell the Model T at a fraction of the price of competitors and suck up market share. However over time Ford found the vertical integration model to be too clumsy to adapt quickly to changes in technology …. And of course F is no longer vertically integrated today. I wonder how quickly or slowly this dynamic will apply to Tesla.
@Jlaa
I think this is more like Apple HW products not like your Ford example. Tesla engineers at vehicle level, charger HW & SWlevel, charger site install level, field maintenance engineering level, supply chain level, are all talking to one another to make the best chargers and charging experience for their customers. Their is no finger pointing. Just a relentless focus on doing the right thing. The results speak for themselves.
You just pull up to a Tesla supercharger, plug in, and thats it. Arguably easier than the process to start pumping gas.
Tsla doesn’t advertise this because their orders are twice their manufacturing capacity at the moment.
I think this is more like Apple HW products not like your Ford example. Tesla engineers at vehicle level, charger HW & SWlevel, charger site install level, field maintenance engineering level, supply chain level, are all talking to one another to make the best chargers and charging experience for their customers. Their is no finger pointing. Just a relentless focus on doing the right thing. The results speak for themselves.
You just pull up to a Tesla supercharger, plug in, and thats it. Arguably easier than the process to start pumping gas.
Tsla doesn’t advertise this because their orders are twice their manufacturing capacity at the moment.
Only 6000 gallons to extinguish.
Many small town fire depts have received zero training on how to deal with BEV fires...
www.fox29.com/news/tesla-spontaneously-combusts-on-sacramento-freeway.amp
Many small town fire depts have received zero training on how to deal with BEV fires...
www.fox29.com/news/tesla-spontaneously-combusts-on-sacramento-freeway.amp
TSLA just wanted to cool off. Didn't let the driver in on the plan.*
Www.sacbee.com/news/california/article271494417.html
*actual cause not yet known
Www.sacbee.com/news/california/article271494417.html
*actual cause not yet known
How has this POS not been caught yet?
My guess is that he's spent too much time riding on top of a high voltage battery pack and his nads are nuked.
That's a three-fer of whacky California/TSLA stories.
‘Tesla terroriser’ suspect accused of road rage attacks on drivers on California highways is identified
TikTok sleuth TizzyEnt says followers provided name which he passed on to investigators
news.yahoo.com
My guess is that he's spent too much time riding on top of a high voltage battery pack and his nads are nuked.
That's a three-fer of whacky California/TSLA stories.
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Copper thieves have new target: electric vehicle charging stations
The thefts are a very expensive crime for Seattle City Light. It costs $2,500 to repair these stations every time this happens.
Copper thieves have new target: electric vehicle charging stations
By Deborah Horne, KIRO 7 NewsJanuary 16, 2023 at 8:15 pm PSTSEATTLE — Thieves on the hunt for copper have found a new target: electric vehicle charging stations.
Seattle City Light says eight of its EV charging stations have been hit since last March. The thieves are looking for what the utility says is a small amount of copper.
Thieves hit the charging station in Seattle’s Central District just this past weekend. And that was the second time thieves vandalized this EV charging station.
Now owners of electric vehicles are finding signs posted on EV stations indicating they are not working.
“So, they’re coming, and they’re taking an implement, and they’re cutting it off at the end,” said Jenn Strang, a spokesperson for Seattle City Light.
She showed us just what the thieves were after.
“So, you can see at the end where there is a small amount of copper,” Strang said, pointing to the remaining stub. “But the rest of it is just an insulated cable.”
A small amount of copper and not a large return.
“What they think is very valuable turns out not to be very valuable at all,” Strang said.
The value? “It’s about $10,” she said.
You can see the cables the thieves are slicing off at electric vehicle charging stations that haven’t been targeted.
Since March, crooks have hit eight of the 13 charging stations Seattle City Light has around its service area. And it’s dangerous. Some electricity is always flowing through the cables.
Still, the crime doesn’t surprise custom furniture designer Joel Shepard who works across the street from these stations.
“Well, if they’re going to take catalytic converters and risk there,” said Shepard, “why not take the easy ones?”
“I feel like that’s just a symptom of a bigger problem,” said Maddie Fives, Seattle, “which, like, sucks because electric cars should have a place to charge. But we should do something about the people who need money and food and housing.”
Meanwhile, Strang says City Light is also planning a pilot program to create curbside EV stations that are essentially just a pole and a hose that drops down.
“We will have 30 of those that we are installing throughout the service territory,” said Strang. “And that’s starting as soon as February.”
The thefts are a very expensive crime for City Light. It costs $2,500 to repair these stations every time this happens.
There’s another problem. This is happening in a lot of places. So, supply chain issues are making it difficult to keep up with demand.
And, of course, this is a crime. If you know anything about these thefts, you’re asked to call Seattle Police.
====================================================
Sounds to me like Maddie is afflicted with Stockholm syndrome.
This is a great YouTube Channel, he does a great job of the 'Fermi problem' of figuring out to 1st and even 2nd order efficiency calcs of EVs and other devices along w explianing general phenomena. Pretty wild efficiency from MB here and actually nearly 100% accurate - 7 mi/kWh is probably out of bounds for a passenger car, but 5.5-6 doesn't seem too far off under reasonable conditions. Tires keep getting better as does Aero.
EV fast charging keeps getting better and realistically you don't spend as much time per year on charging (if you have a home charger) as you do going to gas stations. There's the odd road trip but that's not that bad. I've taken EVs to Yosemite from the Bay and it's pretty chill - it's <200 mi so if you leave w a full charge you can use the chargers they have in the park or the numerous Tesla Superchargers or EA Fast Chargers on the route to add miles. The EA/CCS network has its reliability issues but those are getting better and thankfully that's receiving way more scrutiny.
BTW, VW bragging about the EA network is like someone with a DUI bragging about all the community service they do. Doing a good deed bc it was Court Ordered is a weeeeee bit different than doing so from the benevolence of your heart
EV fast charging keeps getting better and realistically you don't spend as much time per year on charging (if you have a home charger) as you do going to gas stations. There's the odd road trip but that's not that bad. I've taken EVs to Yosemite from the Bay and it's pretty chill - it's <200 mi so if you leave w a full charge you can use the chargers they have in the park or the numerous Tesla Superchargers or EA Fast Chargers on the route to add miles. The EA/CCS network has its reliability issues but those are getting better and thankfully that's receiving way more scrutiny.
BTW, VW bragging about the EA network is like someone with a DUI bragging about all the community service they do. Doing a good deed bc it was Court Ordered is a weeeeee bit different than doing so from the benevolence of your heart
I've used the local EA DC Fast charger 10 to 12 times in the past seven months. Perhaps two or three times it's been a drive-up-plug-in-get-the-max-juice experience. A couple of times, I've driven away totally empty handed. The rest have been a mixed bag of (a) can't connect, move to a different pump, (2) could connect, but it was slow, (iii) had a app/account issue, or (D) it's not charging at max rate or whatever.
If not for the service being "free," as in three years of service baked into the msrp of the vehicle, and there still being a certain novelty to it, I wouldn't bother. The per kwh rate would be 3X what I pay a home. Our 50A Level 2 charger in the garage has 100% uptime, suffers from zero app or payment issues and it's never blocked by an ICE vehicle.
Hanging out in a parking lot, staring at my phone, isn't on my list of things I enjoy doing. At least with a gas station, you know the pump is going to work 99.x% of the time. And it's protected from the elements. And the dwell time will be never more than fifteen minutes, and usually well under ten.
When we had the PHEV, I would sometime connect to public Level 2 chargers for the novelty of it. But that became less and less over the eight years of ownership.
$0.02
If not for the service being "free," as in three years of service baked into the msrp of the vehicle, and there still being a certain novelty to it, I wouldn't bother. The per kwh rate would be 3X what I pay a home. Our 50A Level 2 charger in the garage has 100% uptime, suffers from zero app or payment issues and it's never blocked by an ICE vehicle.
Hanging out in a parking lot, staring at my phone, isn't on my list of things I enjoy doing. At least with a gas station, you know the pump is going to work 99.x% of the time. And it's protected from the elements. And the dwell time will be never more than fifteen minutes, and usually well under ten.
When we had the PHEV, I would sometime connect to public Level 2 chargers for the novelty of it. But that became less and less over the eight years of ownership.
$0.02
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OK, boomer.
(J/K!!!!)Seriously, Gen Z'ers would love this. Staring at their phone for endless hours is their lifestyle, right?
:
It would never happen. I was born a Mass-hole. Got out when I was 17. I know what those states are like.@ace10 just needs to move to the Silicon Valley / California (BEV Utopia) and all of his & wifes problems will be magically solved.
And I think about 10 minutes after he moved there, wed all be getting a dismissive rant about SV/CA.
Fair Enough!
That said, when the Prius looks cooler than the Tesla at 1/2 or 1/3 the price ---- C'mon Tesla, stop making such boring and dowdy looking cars!!!! The Tesla Model AlphabetSoup hasn't really changed in a decade!
I guess the Z'ers will really enjoy those Audi charging lounges.OK, boomer.
Seriously, Gen Zers would love this. Staring at their phone for endless hours is their lifestyle, right?
:View attachment 160680
OK, boomer.
Seriously, Gen Zers would love this. Staring at their phone for endless hours is their lifestyle, right?
I was JUST thinking when I read that ... that the @gsxr would have a very difficult time come charge-up time, to pass the time at stations, given that he doesn't have a phone. What **WOULD** he do in that situation?
Sort of the BEV equivalent of an AMG Private Lounge?
Except actually in real life not just on the internet -- more like the Delta lounge in your friendly airport.Sort of the BEV equivalent of an AMG Private Lounge?
maw
Ugh. Yeah, the crowded airline lounges. Two weeks ago when I traveled I just skipped the United Club in Houston altogether and sat in the terminal and had a nice meal and a couple of beers. It was much nicer to just pay for good food and the drink of my choice rather than fight the crowds and lines and crappy food of the United Club. I'm re-thinking airline clubs altogether now. They are not what they once were.
YT video content creators love to hear themselves talk. Car videos are always filled with too much jibber jabber and not enough actual content.
I'm posting this one for the purposes of seeing the amazing traction capabilities of multi-motor BEVs.
It's a comparo between the three AWD systems Audi currently offers, using the same Pirelli P zero winter tires.
The uphill drag races aren't all that interesting. But skip to the 7 minute mark for the real test.
It'd be fun to see TSLA and some of the other BEVs compared under these conditions. Though maybe there aren't identical tires available for all of them.
I'm posting this one for the purposes of seeing the amazing traction capabilities of multi-motor BEVs.
It's a comparo between the three AWD systems Audi currently offers, using the same Pirelli P zero winter tires.
The uphill drag races aren't all that interesting. But skip to the 7 minute mark for the real test.
It'd be fun to see TSLA and some of the other BEVs compared under these conditions. Though maybe there aren't identical tires available for all of them.
I think the weight on the 1st Audi EV (5,160#) helped it gain traction plus the all electric motors seemed to apply the power more smoothly.
I know for a fact that heavier vehicles get better traction from my construction days. When the housing tracts were totally muddled out due to rain. The sand trucks (Peterbuilt Dumptruck & Trailer delivering 50 tons of sand) could always drive thru it to make their deliveries. The sand truck less the trailer must weigh about 35 tons. There heavy enough to compress the mud down to hard ground.
Anyway, Probably
“To Much Irrelevant Info”
I know for a fact that heavier vehicles get better traction from my construction days. When the housing tracts were totally muddled out due to rain. The sand trucks (Peterbuilt Dumptruck & Trailer delivering 50 tons of sand) could always drive thru it to make their deliveries. The sand truck less the trailer must weigh about 35 tons. There heavy enough to compress the mud down to hard ground.
Anyway, Probably
“To Much Irrelevant Info”
No Reserve: Electric-Conversion 1992 BMW 325i M-Technic Convertible
Bid for the chance to own a No Reserve: Electric-Conversion 1992 BMW 325i M-Technic Convertible at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #97,365.
This space will be interesting to watch, for me personally, similarly to people putting LS6 engines in everything these days. A couple or few batteries and down the road you go. I wonder if they got the drivetrain from a wrecked Tesla.
maw
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Used Audi (suv) battery pack soon for sale. Kindly ignore the road rash and charring.
This is a great piece highlighting
1) What a nice car (NVH wise) the Toyota Mirai is
2) Issues w the current state of hydrogen infrastructure
3) Perhaps great future for hydrogen (instead of BEV) for heavy trucking industry
www.motortrend.com
1) What a nice car (NVH wise) the Toyota Mirai is
2) Issues w the current state of hydrogen infrastructure
3) Perhaps great future for hydrogen (instead of BEV) for heavy trucking industry
What It Was Like Living With Hydrogen for a Year: Toyota Mirai FCEV Yearlong Test Verdict
A year on the Hydrogen Highway with Toyota’s slick new Mirai shows us a better car doesn’t mean there aren’t bumps on the road.
Short EQS honeymoon? After 300 miles, selling $10k below sticker...
VIN = W1KCG4EB4NA020897
This is a brand new Mercedes-Benz all electric luxury sedan vehicle. You can find all the specs on this car online there is way too much to list. It is pearl white with a beige macchiato interior absolutely gorgeous. Has all the options MSRP on this car was close to $140,000. Vehicle currently has 300 miles on it.
2022 mercedes EQS 580 - cars & trucks - by owner - vehicle...
This is a brand new Mercedes-Benz all electric luxury sedan vehicle. You can find all the specs on this car online there is way too much to list. It is pearl white with a beige macchiato interior...
boise.craigslist.org
2022 mercedes EQS 580 - $130,000 (eagle)
VIN = W1KCG4EB4NA020897
This is a brand new Mercedes-Benz all electric luxury sedan vehicle. You can find all the specs on this car online there is way too much to list. It is pearl white with a beige macchiato interior absolutely gorgeous. Has all the options MSRP on this car was close to $140,000. Vehicle currently has 300 miles on it.
^^^ considering my S55 stickered at $140k when new, I find the electric ones pretty inexpensive, actually. I expected them to be well over $200k (erroneously, apparently).
On the short honeymoon, well change is hard and rates are increasing. Better to simply pay cash and buy used, now that prices are coming back to earth.
maw
On the short honeymoon, well change is hard and rates are increasing. Better to simply pay cash and buy used, now that prices are coming back to earth.
maw
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Savage Geese channel having a conversation (more-or-less) about hybrids and where this is going. This is not a review of the Jeep
That channel is probably one of the least BS-filled car offerings out there. They cover a nice variety of vehicles and always seem to offer more insight than one might typically get on YT.
IMO, anyone who acquires a PHEV Wrangler, and doesn't do so through a short term lease, should seek a mental health assessment.
That channel is probably one of the least BS-filled car offerings out there. They cover a nice variety of vehicles and always seem to offer more insight than one might typically get on YT.
IMO, anyone who acquires a PHEV Wrangler, and doesn't do so through a short term lease, should seek a mental health assessment.
So I'm sitting at the EA charger, checking out how it does with the cold weather combined with charge preparation via route planning, and this rig pulls up.
Chevy Bolt ran out of juice on the 4 lane highway. Had to get flatbedded for a fill-up.
Another Bolt pulled up to Pump 1, but the Credit card reader was broken. Pump 4 was out of servcie. I was on pump 2, and never got above 70kw juice flow. I gave up after about twenty minutes.
The suck factor of public charging remains high, especially in cold weather.
Drove home, plugged into my Level 2 charger and went on with my daily routine. It will cost about $7 for the fill up. #WorthIt
Chevy Bolt ran out of juice on the 4 lane highway. Had to get flatbedded for a fill-up.
Another Bolt pulled up to Pump 1, but the Credit card reader was broken. Pump 4 was out of servcie. I was on pump 2, and never got above 70kw juice flow. I gave up after about twenty minutes.
The suck factor of public charging remains high, especially in cold weather.
Drove home, plugged into my Level 2 charger and went on with my daily routine. It will cost about $7 for the fill up. #WorthIt
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Good lord that's quite the difference
I was on a UK forum and I reading posts from people losing their mind that the UK's best seller for January was MG. This is a company owned by SAIC, a Chinese manufacturer with a number of low cost EV options like the MG4 EV which sells for about $30k including VAT and has a 323 mile range. Get ready for an onslaught.
Exclusive: To tap U.S. government billions, Tesla must unlock EV chargers
Exclusive: To tap U.S. government billions, Tesla must unlock EV chargers
archive.ph
maw
Exclusive: To tap U.S. government billions, Tesla must unlock EV chargers
Exclusive: To tap U.S. government billions, Tesla must unlock EV char…
archived 10 Feb 2023 17:44:12 UTC
maw
Meanwhile, in Germany: "EU was set to ban internal combustion engine cars. Then Germany suddenly changed its mind"
I love this quote:
Soooo.... electric / EV components & infrastructure ARE produced at scale? We have 99%-reliable charging stations as common as gas pumps? Manufacturing batteries is cheap, easy, and doesn't require a lot of energy? Have you seen lithium mines? Pot/kettle?
Mercedes might be cranky if they double down on all-EV motorvation and cancel the internal combustions, only to have their gub'mint allow ICE's to continue with appropriate synfuels. All that virtue signaling might bite them in the rear.
Full article:
I love this quote:
"For climate campaigners and the lawmakers who negotiated the new rules, this is not good enough. ... There are other problems too. For one, e-fuels are not yet produced at scale. The manufacturing process is expensive and requires a lot of renewable energy."
Soooo.... electric / EV components & infrastructure ARE produced at scale? We have 99%-reliable charging stations as common as gas pumps? Manufacturing batteries is cheap, easy, and doesn't require a lot of energy? Have you seen lithium mines? Pot/kettle?
Mercedes might be cranky if they double down on all-EV motorvation and cancel the internal combustions, only to have their gub'mint allow ICE's to continue with appropriate synfuels. All that virtue signaling might bite them in the rear.
Full article:
Using an archiver to get around the paywall on Bloomberg.
archive.ph
web.archive.org
Biden Reaches Moment of Truth for Electric Vehicle Tax Credits - Bloo…
archived 24 Mar 2023 14:12:53 UTC
Biden Reaches Moment of Truth for Electric Vehicle Tax Credits
The auto world is about to learn where the administration stands on some of the toughest policy questions surrounding the transition to EVs.
web.archive.org
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