Engine startup time

[Jelmer]

Since most defects of my car have been fixed, I'm starting to have fun with details (i.e., temp gauge, floor mats, etc).

One of the things that slightly bothers me is that time it takes for the engine to finally start running. When I turn the key, I sometimes have to hold it for 1.5-2 seconds, which seems pretty long to me (especially since 036 came over and started blabbing about his engine starting quicker -- and it does ). Is there anything "simple" that determines this 'delay'? And how long do you have to hold the key when firing up the engine?

(oh, and no, it's not the battery, it's brand new and the engine doesn't sound like its turning over slowly).

 

[195910]

fuel supply and starter are to things to check. Does the starter sound healthy?

 

[gerryvz]

Starter itself can be a factor. Once I replaced my starter it definitely started quicker, and with more authority.

 

[Jelmer]

Well I found this:
[youtube]v5UiRTWmCvA[/youtube]

and the startup sound is about the same; it just takes longer. It sounds like the initial "vroooom" is also louder with me; it revs to about 2000rpm and then drops to proper idle again.

 

[gerryvz]

jbass ....

For the longest time I thought I had a weak battery, my car had long (2-second) crank times and it SOUNDED just like a bad battery that was only partially charged. In reality it was the starter. Toward the end of the life of the starter it was also taking a long time to start. Finally just before Christmas 2007, the starter died on me about 20 blocks from my house when I was out running errands.

When I replaced the starter it was very quick again, and much more power. Mine starts with a VROOM and goes up to about 1200 RPM, then down to the proper settled idle around 500-600 RPM.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[jano]

You can also try replacing fuel pressure regulator, it's a quick, cheap r&r, but requires one of those circle-c-clamp-ring-plier-thingies.

Here's my startup, which was actually a little quicker than usual; it often takes just a fraction of a second longer:
http://jano.smugmug.com/gallery/11045409_8RnLB2#772829352_kV2tV-A-LB

(wish the forum supported smugmug videos)


John

 

[Jelmer]

Jano, thanks for that upload, that's so different than my engine! I'll start doing some research on what you describe.

Gerry, I know I had a weak battery, that's why I had it replaced last winter. I guess if it's really the starter motor it'll get more and more slow. I feel it's gotten only slightly worse in a year so I guess it'll take quite some time until a replacement is needed.

I'll try and grab a short film tomorrow. As I said: it's not really a huge problem; it just bugs me that my awesome V8 needs more time to startup than my neighbors Fiat Cinquecento ;-)

 

[bing]

Well, I just started mine after 1 month and it fired right up!. But I do find from cold it's almost instant, however when hot it does take about 1.5 to 2secs, so I could be looking at same problem(s) as above?? I've always known it to be like this since being acquainted with it back in 2004 and think it's normal.

 

[Jelmer]

For me cold and warm don't make much of a difference. When it's HOT, though (just came off of a highway, parked, got out, shopping, get in, start) it TRIES to grab quicker but fails (I get a e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-vrrr-e-e-e-e-e-VROOOOoom sound)

 

[bing]

JB, I think I know what u mean..It cranks - catches - cranks - fires! Mine cranks 1.5sec then vroooms

 

[gsxr]

You may want to try what is mentioned in the TSB linked below. This cured an intermittent start hiccup on my 500E - it's been flawless since I added the 0.5mm shim:

http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/M119/M119_crank_sensor_TSB.pdf

 

[Jelmer]

Thanks, I'll take this information with me on my next visit to the mechanic

 

[maw1124]

So how'd that "shim" work out? I'm chasing the same ghost in my '92 500E. I have Gerry's post (E500 Difficulty Starting -- Any Thoughts?) with instructions to my mechanics to check the battery wiring. They haven't run codes yet -- I'm just researching, trying to save them some diagnostic time and me some money. But the problem started only AFTER the stereo install (see other threads of mine) -- think battery wiring -- so that culprit jumps to the top of the list. I swapped out the fuel pump relay -- no dice. Fuel supply generally gets ruled out -- this thing runs like a locomotive. This weekend, I'm on a highway run from FL to LA, so the general observation is it runs flawlessly once it's started. It hesitates as documented above at all startups (about 1 second), but after it sits for a few hours (not days), I have the five crank, 3 second problem Gerry described. All well-informed thoughts welcome.

Thanks Gents, in advance. Happy Holidays! Let's raise a glass for this forum. Without it, I would not have bought the car.

Cheers!!!

maw

 

[Jelmer]

I still haven't tried it. It's one of those "nice to look at, one day" things, but currently I'm still deep into necessary repairs (blower motor, MAF, steering issues). One day, though ...

 

[maw1124]

Update here Guys: My issue turned out to be a faulty LH Module. I was hoping for the same outcome as Gerry -- bad electrical powering the module, not the module itself. Oh well, that's how it goes I guess. To make matters slightly worse, my techs got a used unit for $400 before I saw one for sale on this site for $75. They've already eaten over $325 in time for me over the last few months, so I'm not sweating that.

Question for you all: did the "de-tuned" LH Modules (those after engine number 8760) bear a new part number?

I think my donor car was a '93 S500 (W140), which I've read here had different programming and fuel curves. But I must say, my "seat of the pants" assessment is that I've lost nothing and may have even gained a step or two at WOT. Same part number. Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

 

[gsxr]

Question for you all: did the "de-tuned" LH Modules (those after engine number 8760) bear a new part number?

You are quoting the numbers from the RENNtech catalog, which are incorrect. The "de-tuned" LH modules are all modules used in 1993 model year and later. Only the 1992 modules have WOT enrichment.

I think my donor car was a '93 S500 (W140), which I've read here had different programming and fuel curves. Same part number. Any thoughts?

The 93 and/or W140 modules do have different programming, but if the part number is the same, either the donor was a '92, or your car didn't have the correct module to begin with. Can you post the part number of the new and/or old module? Even the slightest change in programming results in a new part number, so any modules of the same part number have identical software/programming (assuming the stock chip is still installed).

But I must say, my "seat of the pants" assessment is that I've lost nothing and may have even gained a step or two at WOT.

Could be the adaptation process hasn't completed yet, and/or the old module was a bit off on adaptation, etc, etc. In general there shouldn't be a big difference, but if your old module was defective, who know what other symptoms it might have caused...

 

[maw1124]

Got it. Thanks Dave. I'll rely on my guys at German Cars of Sarasota when they tell me the part number was exactly the same. They're EXTREMELY detail oriented when it comes to stuff like that. Hell, they're worse than me, and you can probably get a sense of how picky I am. Plus I don't know where it is and am not going to go tooling around looking for it.

BTW, I read information on other sites which lead me to believe that the '92 LH Module for our cars continued on into the early MY '93 W140 cars. But I cannot confirm that.

If there's any adaptation process to be had, it'll be to my more aggressive driving style. So if the P/N is the same and it feels right, I'm gonna let it lie. Thanks again.

Best,

maw

 

[gsxr]

BTW, I read information on other sites which lead me to believe that the '92 LH Module for our cars continued on into the early MY '93 W140 cars. But I cannot confirm that.

Definitely not true. All 93-up models, worldwide AFAIK, went to closed-loop at all times.

If there's any adaptation process to be had, it'll be to my more aggressive driving style. So if the P/N is the same and it feels right, I'm gonna let it lie. Thanks again.

The adaptation is strictly a fuel/air delivery thing, adapting for the wear of the engine & parts, etc. You can easily check the part number of the module installed, just pop the cover off the CAN box (4 screws) and read the number on the LH module, as seen here at the bottom of the photo. I'm sure they matched the number of the module that was in there, but that doesn't mean the previous/bad one was factory original.

 

[maw1124]

Mercedes # 012 545 6232
Bosch # 0 280 002 512

Thanks, Dave. You know way more about this than I do. This is what they put in.

By the way, it could easily be that the donor car was a '92. That's the piece they seem less certain about.

maw

 

[maw1124]

Dave, I found another one of your posts that let me know the 012 P/N was superceded by the 014 P/N. That was the source of my confusion. My car is early production -- Jan '92, which explains it having the 012 P/N.

Best,

maw

 

[gsxr]

Cool! Yes, that is the correct number for an early 500E. You're all set now! Glad they fixed the problem, that's a new failure mode that I've not yet encountered on any LH module. Usually they just do the clicking fuel pump relay thing.

 

[maw1124]

Right. I had hoped it was the same fault as Gerry's (not enough power to the unit), cheap and quick fix. I basically gave them Gerry's thread. No dice. I had them swap the relay on the quick and cheap. No dice there either. They were surprised it went bad, because they said they're not known for going bad. Now the question is whether I can have a computer repair shop fix the old one, so I'll have two, given how rare the WOT enriched models are (20 years hence). Oh well. These are luxurious problems to have.

Cheers,

maw

 

[Christian_K]

Look how quick mine started with the overhauled engine (RIP) on its first start:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGId6t1M0UM
(Yes no exhaust installed, hence the rough sound - exhaust sound reflects back from side-walls of engine bay and ground ^^ was first try after putting it in ^^)
Pic:https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.ne...05860736_100000981044396_578801_6034653_n.jpg

And it was never different later on during the few days it worked. Maybe the long startup time has something to do also with engine wear, since mine was more or less "new".
Interesting story with that LH module..We should write a Wiki entry which summerizes als the differences between the types and the typical failures...

Still i dont like that starter sound on our 500Es - it sounds outdated/old, the E420s with 11:1 compression have somehow a much quicker turn and sound (at least the Ex-E420 W124 of a frind of mine had)

 

[Jelmer]

Oh, yeah, rub it in why don't you? Starting up has gotten worse. I've had it four times now that the starter engine stalled (!), and only the last time I could keep my key in "start" mode while that happened - all lights lit up, but it DID start! I've become pretty convinced my starter engine is nearing it's final days, starting it up takes pretty long.

One bright spot, though: My original battery went dead in the -5C weather a year back, so I had "Kwik Fit" (El'Cheapo++) fit me another battery - that appears to be less than qualified for the job, so I'll have it replaced by a proper battery when my cats arrive.

About the starter sound being outdated: yes, it is. All them tiny new engines start off their starter/dynamo combo thingie, giving them a scary high-pitched sound. Our cars sound like there's an ENGINE being started, instead of a shopping-cart, sounds fine to me. If it'd pick up as quickly as your movie showed, though, that's just the icing on the cake.

Remember: 500E = Old starter noise -> gurgling engine -> annoying upshift delay + much engine noise -> calming down -> pushing paddle into floor leaving people with a "wtf just happend?" look. Epic.

 

[Christian_K]

Hahahhaah, your last sentence made my day!
Anyway, as long as your car doesn't start like this, all will be fine ^^
[video=youtube;B2t74PFC9q4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2t74PFC9q4[/video]

As for the battery, since i had rather some average/bad experience with cheap aftermarket ones, i tend to only buy the Mercedes VLRA ones anymore (Varta rebranded). They are sold "used" (mostly just 2-3 years old) for around 30-40€ on german ebay. New price at the dealer is "insane" at around 300€ IIRC.
Their lifespan (since its a VRLA) is around 10 years, i use a battery-activator to expand it even further... so far their capacity is HUUUUUGE.

I have that fancy "Jehnert" Soundsystem in my 500E, with lots of little Amps, Doorboards and whatnot, and even after hearing Music on almost full-loudness for around 2-3 hours, it still was around half-full according to my battery tester ^^
Picture:


Have you ever checked that your ground-wire isn't corroded? And especially the both ends that connects to the parts/car.
I mean the thick one thats going left from the gearbox to the front lower-control arm area? I have read that this also have something to do with it ;-)

My old E420 had also a "slow" starting and the ground-wire was already "green" so much corrosion was built-up at it.

 

[Jelmer]

I just had mine tested, 100% OK. Seemed a bit on the light side though (and el'cheapo) so per your suggestion I have ordered a new Varta just to be sure. "Only" 74AH, though

I'll check the wires when I put it in.

 

[Christian_K]

I just had mine tested, 100% OK. Seemed a bit on the light side though (and el'cheapo) so per your suggestion I have ordered a new Varta just to be sure. "Only" 74AH, though

Nice Is it a VRLA AGM type like the one from Mercedes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA_battery
And does it have the proper size?

I'll check the wires when I put it in.

You can check them anytime, just turn your steeringwheel fully right, then lay down at the drivers-door and look with your eyes under the car, you will see it how it looks.

 

[Jelmer]

It's not the Mercedes-stamped version. I refuse to pay so much more for that single sticker.

Ha, you made that sound easy. I just checked, wiring looks good, although it's pretty dirty there. A nice job for when my cats arrive

 

[Jelmer]

To end this silly question with a satisfying ending: this "issue" has been resolved, as well. Replacing the ignition cables made it feel slightly better, but I think it was the tiny leak in the fuel (over?)pressure regulator that was the culprit. Our guess is that because of this leak, the fuel rail lost a bit of pressure, which had to be pumped in again when cranking the engine. Now my engine starts much quicker but it also feels less ... dramatic. Hard to describe, but cranking it sounds different, higher pitched or something.

 

[bing]

Hard to describe, but cranking it sounds different, higher pitched or something.

What , you mean like a Toyota?Sorry could'nt resist, mate!

I'm glad you're getting some satisfaction. However, don't kill yourself trying to make it perfect.

 

[Jelmer]

lol, damn you!

You're right - I'm incredibly happy with the car at the moment. Everything works, everything sounds and feels good, I love it. I'm at 185k km now, I'm not doing anything until 200k. We'll see what happens then

 

[ccc]

How does the crank position sensor sense? Magnet? other.
I have the same delayed start, with a 1 to 2 second crank,
and thought to add the shim first. On inspection, i noted the crank sensor was covered in oil and dirt.
a clean up ..... no change to start crank, so i figure it is not an optical sensor.

Chris

 

[gsxr]

There are two magnets on the flywheel. There will be error codes on pin 17 if you are having trouble with these. A 1-2 second crank time is pretty normal, btw. If there are serious problems with the magnets not being recognized, it will crank and crank and crank and crank and not fire. Don't ask how I know. You can try the shim, btw... and while the sensor is out (for shim installation), make sure to clean the business end of the sensor. The external part can be dirty, that won't affect operation.

http://www.w124performance.com/docs/mb/M119/M119_crank_sensor_TSB.pdf