Front Door Speaker Replacement

[jaymanek]

Hi Guys,

Did a quick search but nothing conclusive.

For the 500Te project, I used the front door speakers from the 500E Saloon.

I used rainbows in dash. All powered by an aftermarket 4 way amp.

The rainbows sound awesome, the door speakers sound totally junk.

It seems that they are designed for the original MB Becker sound system; most of the parts I sold.

Anyway, I need to know if anyone has fitted any good aftermarket speakers here? Need to know what size will fit.

 

[gsxr]

I think the problem is that the door speakers are meant to be driven by the factory amp, which likely has an equalization curve built-in. You can either resurrect that option (the wagon amp has speaker-level inputs, and only drives the door speakers). The factory door speakers are an oddball size and there are no bolt-in replacements I'm aware of, that will seal properly in the factory plastic enclosure, nor sound correct.

Otherwise, the proper fix will be to shell out for Jehnert doorboards, or full-custom doorboards. Jehnert's setup allows dual 6.5" midbasses of your choice; or you can buy the doorboards "loaded" with drivers they supply. 15+ years ago, Jehnert used MB Quart drivers, but I'm not sure if they are still using the same suppliers though.

 

[2phast]

Your main issue with finding door speakers is the depth, you have about 2" to work with (unless you intend to modify the pods they go in). I have some Pioneer coax's in mine and they are powered by a small ADS 20 watt amp, fed by the low level outputs of a Pioneer Premiere head unit. The head I use has DSP and Parametric equalization, so you can tailor and/or adjust for the seating position and level outputs. In my case, the door speakers are turned down low, they basically fire into the sides of the seat, so your not going to get much from them.

 

[jaymanek]

Thanks all. I have jenhert in my 3.4 wagon. I really did not want to shell out on new jenhert items at the moment. The project has cost me a fortune!
I’ll have to wait for some used pods to show up.

Until then the amplified rainbows are good enough.

 

[jaymanek]

Just to update, I stumbled across these so gave them a try. Fit pretty good. They are advertised as being able to fit apertures from 6-6.5"

 

[maw1124]

I had listed some recommendations a year or so ago... I used a modern Kicker 5.25" (KS525) in the door, along with the JLAudio 4" (TR400) in the dash.

If you can still find them, they will fit well. I think you have 2 7/8" to work with, and these are 2.5" deep. Also, although I haven't gotten around to confirming this yet, I think they will work in the back as well, as the magnet is small enough to fit in the existing cutout, even in by chance they are too deep.

I had not seen a 6" that was slim enough to fit, except the Jehnert door boards.

maw

 

[duuder]

my sound guy managed to put in a 6.5 in my door. ill find out what he used in a few days

 

[maw1124]

my sound guy managed to put in a 6.5 in my door. ill find out what he used in a few days

duuder, any update here? I have been looking, but still can't identify a slim enough 6". If I could, I'd put a 6" in the door and move the 5.25" to the rear fill, instead of getting another set of 5.25" for the rear.

Thanks in advance.

maw

 

[duuder]

Morel maximal 6

 

[maw1124]

Any door alterations?


https://www.crutchfield.com/p_210MA...kf3bgJJmraxLi6LqITnZ17e02oUYGGRRoCuesQAvD_BwE

maw

 

[duuder]

Very minor from what he stated

 

[Kyiv]

@maw1124 Did you end up using Morel-Maximo? If yes, I assume you've used a non-factory amplifier? Thanks

 

[maw1124]

@maw1124 Did you end up using Morel-Maximo? If yes, I assume you've used a non-factory amplifier? Thanks

I did not. I ended up going with a 5.25 thin fit speaker, Kicker I believe. No door alteration. But yes, the factory head unit and amplifiers were the first things to go on my car. Alpine HU with 4x45w power pack to push the cabin speakers + sub and dedicated amp in the trunk.

maw

 

[ngenius1]

Hi all.
I recently installed a Morel 3 way kit in the front of the car.
No issues with depth for the mid bass in the door, if u you use a decent rubber gasket it will seal nicely.
The fronts are driving by a 4 channel amp, split through the 3 way passive.
getting the balance right between doors and dash take a bit of time to get right.
As the doors need a lot more power to get a nice seamless sound.

 

[Atatexan]

@gxsr. I am considering the Jehnert shelf for the C124. This car currently has a garden variety Alpine head unit. What type of amplifier did you use for your conversion? And do you still love it?

 

[Jlaa]

@gxsr. I am considering the Jehnert shelf for the C124. This car currently has a garden variety Alpine head unit. What type of amplifier did you use for your conversion? And do you still love it?

i am not gsxr but I used Jehnerts and I am really fond of them. See here - All About Jehnert Doorboards | In-Car Entertainment (ICE)

 

[gsxr]

@gxsr. I am considering the Jehnert shelf for the C124. This car currently has a garden variety Alpine head unit. What type of amplifier did you use for your conversion? And do you still love it?

Amplifier technology (and, companies) have changed dramatically in the past 20 years. Back when I was working on audio systems in the late 90's and early oughts, I insisted on top-shelf Made in USA amplifiers from companies who specialized in under-rated, over-delivering, competition amps: Rockford Fosgate, Orion, Soundstream, PPI, and a couple others were high on the list. I went with Soundstream Reference amps, partly because their wire terminal blocks (to connect each wire to the amp) were some of the best I've seen; and they were all capable of running stupid low impedance loads... 0.5 ohm stereo, 1.0 ohm bridged, which is nuts. Most people wouldn't need this capability though, and these old (read: inefficient) amp designs consumed massive amounts of power (read: alternator upgrade, stiffening caps, etc), AND were generally ginormous in size. Pics below of one of my amps and specs for the series.

Anyway - I have no idea what to recommend today. All of the aforementioned companies now only "design" in USA and have their amps built overseas. Most everything is Class D (far more efficient and compact) and can not handle low impedance loads, but may offer tons more capability with crossovers, DSP, and other handy stuff.

I would shop based on power requirements (Jehnerts are power hungry, don't skimp here), DSP processing requirements (see @Jlaa's excellent thread with tuning info for the 500E), and size constraints depending where you plan to mount the amps. You may be able to use a single multi-channel amp, or may have to use 2-3 physically smaller amps. Spend the money on the front speakers & amps, not the fill on the rear deck. The 4 drivers in each door of the coupé might eliminate the need for a subwoofer, depending on your musical tastes and desire for internal-organ-rearrangement.

 

[Jlaa]

This car currently has a garden variety Alpine head unit. What type of amplifier did you use for your conversion? And do you still love it?

Amplifier technology (and, companies) have changed dramatically in the past 20 years. .....
I would shop based on power requirements (Jehnerts are power hungry, don't skimp here), DSP processing requirements (see @Jlaa's excellent thread with tuning info for the 500E), and size constraints depending where you plan to mount the amps.

@Atatexan -- amplifiers -- this is what I used. OWNER - OWNER - jlaa | Owners and Their Cars If you similarly decide to go off the deep end like I did (though my deep end is still shallow peanuts for Mr. Big Audio @kegmankipp), I would love to hear about your process and results.

 

[195910]

Has anyone compared the W124 Bose system to other M-Bs like the W140 Bose or W202/W210?

Reason I ask is that all the 124036 I've owned had relatively poor Audio quality compared to the W140 Bose (a theater on wheels compared to the W124) or the W202 Bose which sounds awesome as well.
The Bass level, volume and channel processing are all better in the W202. Is this an amplifier issue or speakers design/layout as well?
head unit is the same (MB Exquisit and Special) .

 

[gsxr]

The best W124 audio system is definitely inferior to the W/V140 audio systems. Apples and oranges though... the 140 has 3 drivers in each front door, a center channel behind the rearview mirror, plus four (!) subwoofers in the rear parcel shelf. The 140 system is impressive today, and back in 1992 it would have been astounding.

I've never heard a W202 so I can't comment on that one.

But the 124 largely an issue with the speakers and overall design, not necessarily the amps or headunit. The 124 still used a plain paper cone midrange in the dash with a midbass in the door, no tweeters. You want to hear poor sound? Check out an early 124 with two dash speakers and two tiny full-range cone rear deck speakers... that setup is pitiful! The late 124 "Sound System" is not bad, but definitely not 140-level.

 

[Jlaa]

Has anyone compared the W124 Bose system to other M-Bs like the W140 Bose or W202/W210?

Reason I ask is that all the 124036 I've owned had relatively poor Audio quality compared to the W140 Bose (a theater on wheels compared to the W124) or the W202 Bose which sounds awesome as well.
The Bass level, volume and channel processing are all better in the W202. Is this an amplifier issue or speakers design/layout as well?
head unit is the same (MB Exquisit and Special) .

In my opinion the issue with w124 audio is the midbass. It comes from the rear of the front doors which has all messed up phasing as it fires right into the sides of the seats.

The fixes are either:

1) midbasses in front lower part of the front doors which would use front footwell area for natural resonance / cabin gain. Drawback - aesthetically ugly and unoriginal looking.

2) add subwoofer. Drawback - adds complexity and eats up trunk space.

3) keep midbasses in rear of front doors but use DSP tricks like delay to fix phasing. Double up woofers with jehnerts for more as well. Drawback - cost.

Imaging and staging by putting midranges and tweeters in the dash locations sound excellent - no need for tweeters in sail panels or elsewhere

 

[gsxr]

Ditto everything @Jlaa said above. Note that the 140 system will still outperform the 124 in lower octaves due to the factory subwoofers, but using the concepts mentioned above, you can fix a lot of the imaging/staging and overall frequency response.

Adding a subwoofer would be a bonus / icing on the cake, but it's difficult and expensive to add a subwoofer correctly. Which is why only one of my 124's has a sub, and it was a pro install by a previous owner, not me. I had an IASCA-level system installed in a non-MB for many years which was my reference for killer sound, and if I couldn't get close to that, I didn't want to bother at all... which is why I still haven't done subs in my other 124's. Still want to, some day... sigh...

 

[195910]

Thanks for the clarification gentlemen.
The W202 Bose Sound system has 8 speakers including 2 sub woofers in the rear shelf using the trunk as a resonance chamber just like W140.

Do you think its possible rearrange the W124 system? maybe move the Subwoofer to the rear shelf in place of the rear shelf speakers? and change the door speakers to full range. Original dimensions and look.. but then we need to rewire the connections at the amplifier

 

[gsxr]

You can add subwoofers to the W124 rear parcel shelf but it's a lot of work/$$$ to do properly, and have it sound good, with no rattles.

Adding full-range front door speakers will not work unless they are relocated to the forward part of the door so they fire into the footwell area (like the W210), instead of the seat cushion. The tweeter in this setup would need to be angled upward, and it might be tricky to tune it with whatever is in the dash.

 

[Atatexan]

Amplifier technology (and, companies) have changed dramatically in the past 20 years. Back when I was working on audio systems in the late 90's and early oughts, I insisted on top-shelf Made in USA amplifiers from companies who specialized in under-rated, over-delivering, competition amps: Rockford Fosgate, Orion, Soundstream, PPI, and a couple others were high on the list. I went with Soundstream Reference amps, partly because their wire terminal blocks (to connect each wire to the amp) were some of the best I've seen; and they were all capable of running stupid low impedance loads... 0.5 ohm stereo, 1.0 ohm bridged, which is nuts. Most people wouldn't need this capability though, and these old (read: inefficient) amp designs consumed massive amounts of power (read: alternator upgrade, stiffening caps, etc), AND were generally ginormous in size. Pics below of one of my amps and specs for the series.

Anyway - I have no idea what to recommend today. All of the aforementioned companies now only "design" in USA and have their amps built overseas. Most everything is Class D (far more efficient and compact) and can not handle low impedance loads, but may offer tons more capability with crossovers, DSP, and other handy stuff.

I would shop based on power requirements (Jehnerts are power hungry, don't skimp here), DSP processing requirements (see @Jlaa's excellent thread with tuning info for the 500E), and size constraints depending where you plan to mount the amps. You may be able to use a single multi-channel amp, or may have to use 2-3 physically smaller amps. Spend the money on the front speakers & amps, not the fill on the rear deck. The 4 drivers in each door of the coupé might eliminate the need for a subwoofer, depending on your musical tastes and desire for internal-organ-rearrangement.

This is an amazing accomplishment, Jlaa. Very impressive as well as extremely helpful. The US agent for Jehnert seems to never sleep! He answered all my emails about the amp over the weekend. It is all an expensive undertaking but should be well worth it. The guy said there is an amp “box” in the car. Interested to see exactly where that is! Though I do not have a 124.036, just a Euro C124 300CE-24 SportLine with the Getrag 5-speed, this forum is always a good source of info. I appreciate all of you piping up on this.

 

[Jlaa]

Thanks for the clarification gentlemen.
The W202 Bose Sound system has 8 speakers including 2 sub woofers in the rear shelf using the trunk as a resonance chamber just like W140.

Do you think its possible rearrange the W124 system? maybe move the Subwoofer to the rear shelf in place of the rear shelf speakers? and change the door speakers to full range. Original dimensions and look.. but then we need to rewire the connections at the amplifier

Rearranging all the speaker positions of course is quite possible and @gsxr raises some great points to consider above. That said, in my opinion, if you want to fix the weakpoint of the w124 system (midbass output) and you choose to do so through physical relocation versus electronic relocation (moving woofer to front of the door vs DSP delay), you may wish to consider NOT relocating the midrange/tweeter from the dashboard. They are in an excellent position where they currently are, and the dash location allows you to use a big midrange to ensure only the lowest of frequencies are handed off to the midbass and not mess up directionality by assigning midrange to the woofers near your ankles or your hip.

The imaging and stage of the w124 can be made to be spectacular by using the dash locations. I think it could be very easy to make imaging and stage WORSE by moving tweeters and midranges to the doors or sail panels. What would YET STILL worse is if you had some high and midrange frequencies come from the doors and other high and midrange frequencies come from the dashboard at the same time. The imaging in that scenario would be terrible - my Toyota is like this. On the other hand if you are up for a big challenge then it could be a fun project!

 

[195910]

Rearranging all the speaker positions of course is quite possible and @gsxr raises some great points to consider above. That said, in my opinion, if you want to fix the weakpoint of the w124 system (midbass output) and you choose to do so through physical relocation versus electronic relocation (moving woofer to front of the door vs DSP delay), you may wish to consider NOT relocating the midrange/tweeter from the dashboard. They are in an excellent position where they currently are, and the dash location allows you to use a big midrange to ensure only the lowest of frequencies are handed off to the midbass and not mess up directionality by assigning midrange to the woofers near your ankles or your hip.

The imaging and stage of the w124 can be made to be spectacular by using the dash locations. I think it could be very easy to make imaging and stage WORSE by moving tweeters and midranges to the doors or sail panels. What would YET STILL worse is if you had some high and midrange frequencies come from the doors and other high and midrange frequencies come from the dashboard at the same time. The imaging in that scenario would be terrible - my Toyota is like this. On the other hand if you are up for a big challenge then it could be a fun project!

@Jlaa Thank you for the clarification, I am not a fan of bass boxes on wheels and I am not an audio specialist, but I understand your comments on the Toyota yes the sound is superficial and its just like a listening to cheap headphones. Did not know its because the speakers are trying to give all frequencies at the same time.

Unfortunately this would have been a nice adventure 15 years ago.. now its all about sourcing OE parts to keep everything original.

 

[speedy300dturbo]

A Polish company makes an enclosure that replaces the first aid kit and doesn't require cutting a hole in the sheetmetal (should be fastened with nutserts / rivnuts though). This, combined with a shallow-mount woofer like the Focal P20 FSE and modern class-D compact amplifier, seems like a superior alternative to the old-fashioned trunk-space-hogging subwoofer of the "good ol' days"...

 

[Jlaa]

A Polish company makes an enclosure that replaces the first aid kit and doesn't require cutting a hole in the sheetmetal (should be fastened with nutserts / rivnuts though). This, combined with a shallow-mount woofer like the Focal P20 FSE and modern class-D compact amplifier, seems like a superior alternative to the old-fashioned trunk-space-hogging subwoofer of the "good ol' days"...

View attachment 136144View attachment 136143View attachment 136142

Fascinating. Do you have a link to this?

 

[gsxr]

Fascinating. Do you have a link to this?

Yes please! I have this bad feeling my piggy bank is about to meet a hammer.

 

[dreaming.haze]

@Jlaa | @gsxr Basser - FBmerc04 Mercedes E W124 Coupe/Sedan Fit-Box subwoofer enclosure Looks to be the company @speedy300dturbo was mentioning. Also a few images of what it would look like installed here: Basser - MERCEDES W124

 

[maw1124]

Interesting fitment... 8" instead of 10"... looks good as long as you don't have to rip the rear apart the way they did to get the other rear deck "fill" speakers in... my amp and sub are already there so if it's just running a wire I'd gain back a little trunk space... that's a very small box (.3 cubic feet) but I suppose the right slim fit sub can make it work... maybe even a 2ohm model... I recall doing the calculations and concluding I needed to get at least a full cubic feet for a 10", which is why mine is in the trunk... I'm not looking to rethink that whole exercise but I doubt .3 cubic feet is enough for an 8" sub. There's plenty of advice out there on this, some of which might be on this Board already.

maw

UPDATE... see post #13 here... Stereo RetroFit Help | In-Car Entertainment (ICE) ... I needed .5 cubic feet for a 10" sub (which was a close call on the rear deck)... so .3 cubic feet for an 8" might just work.

 

[Jlaa]

Interesting fitment... 8" instead of 10"... looks good as long as you don't have to rip the rear apart the way they did to get the other rear deck "fill" speakers in... my amp and sub are already there so if it's just running a wire I'd gain back a little trunk space... that's a very small box (.3 cubic feet) but I suppose the right slim fit sub can make it work... maybe even a 2ohm model... I recall doing the calculations and concluding I needed to get at least a full cubic feet for a 10", which is why mine is in the trunk... I'm not looking to rethink that whole exercise but I doubt .3 cubic feet is enough for an 8" sub. There's plenty of advice out there on this, some of which might be on this Board already.

maw

Hmmmmmmm.... a bit conspicuous for my tastes, but if I had five 500Es to play with I would put this in one of them!

 

[Jlaa]

BTW they also have this --- physically moved the midbasses from the rear of the front door panels to the front of the front door panels. Not sure if this is all custom work or product they offer, but it is all fascinating to look at:

Basser - MERCEDES W124

MERCEDES W124

caraudio.basser.pl

 

[maw1124]

Hmmmmmmm.... a bit conspicuous for my tastes, but if I had five 500Es to play with I would put this in one of them!

Yes, that too... + you'd have to play around with balance... that's almost too much bass in the rear deck, if that makes sense... subwoofer level would have to come way down... which would REQUIRE a modern head unit... no Becker BT refurbishment for that trick (although @Jlaa use of the JLAudio VXi amps might take care of that)... these reasons + the space requirements are what had mine into the trunk behind the driver side wheel well (in 2015 or so)... not perfect but not intrusive... and the infrastructure is all done so I can always double back with something like this and/or Jenherts and/or JLAudio VXi amps with no extra thought... just cash... so that's where I left it, and I've been fairly pleased to be honest.

maw

 

[Jlaa]

Yes, that too... + you'd have to play around with balance... that's almost too much bass in the rear deck, if that makes sense... subwoofer level would have to come way down... which would REQUIRE a modern head unit... no Becker BT refurbishment for that trick...

maw

If you were nuts about original controls and you didn't mind locking front/rear speaker fading balance, you could repurpose the stock fader wheel as a subwoofer level control.....

 

[maw1124]

If you were nuts about original controls and you didn't mind locking front/rear speaker fading balance, you could repurpose the stock fader wheel as a subwoofer level control.....

Of course... most likely my stock fader wheel will remain a useless relic... and if I touch the system again it will be to replace the alpine 4x45 power pack and mono sub amp with a DSP 5 channel amp (VXi equivalent advanced for the times) and Jenhert door boards... short of that nothing else makes sense to do.

maw

 

[dionphaneuf]

I've started to go down the speaker rabit hole, in part inspired by this thread. I reached out and that Basser sub unit is still available, can be shipped to you for $250 all in. I'm getting tempted, especially if it sits below the CHMSL. It should take an 8" sub like this one easily. For the doors+dash I might do a 3 way system like this one, which could fit with some adaptation. Then get a 4+1 amp like this JL one, or for a bit less this Alpine one. For <$1700 you'd seemingly have a pretty good setup, although I think with the EUR/USD where it is, door boards aren't that spendy - like $800 delivered? Add in $400 worth of speakers for said Jehnerts and then some nice dash units and you're at $2250-ish, which doesn't feel like much more and is arguably a more tried solution? I'd be running the @Jlaa move of going 1432->Tuner line out -> Amp to minimize wire tear up, relatively speaking, and keep the stock HU.

This has the makings of potentially a larger project that is of more scope/timeframe (maybe 6-8 weeks all in between research, buying parts/lead times, then finding weekend/evening time to install everything) than I want. For now I may just grab the @kegmankipp approved Faital speakers for the door as mine are the weak point and I think just dead after 30 years, and re evaluate afterwards to see if it's worth the upgrades.

 

[Jlaa]

I've started to go down the speaker rabit hole, in part inspired by this thread. I reached out and that Basser sub unit is still available, can be shipped to you for $250 all in. I'm getting tempted, especially if it sits below the CHMSL. It should take an 8" sub like this one easily. For the doors+dash I might do a 3 way system like this one, which could fit with some adaptation. Then get a 4+1 amp like this JL one, or for a bit less this Alpine one. For <$1700 you'd seemingly have a pretty good setup, although I think with the EUR/USD where it is, door boards aren't that spendy - like $800 delivered? Add in $400 worth of speakers for said Jehnerts and then some nice dash units and you're at $2250-ish, which doesn't feel like much more and is arguably a more tried solution? I'd be running the @Jlaa move of going 1432->Tuner line out -> Amp to minimize wire tear up, relatively speaking, and keep the stock HU.

This has the makings of potentially a larger project that is of more scope/timeframe (maybe 6-8 weeks all in between research, buying parts/lead times, then finding weekend/evening time to install everything) than I want. For now I may just grab the @kegmankipp approved Faital speakers for the door as mine are the weak point and I think just dead after 30 years, and re evaluate afterwards to see if it's worth the upgrades.

If you do all that, I highly suggest that you use active crossovers instead of passive crossovers! Where to cross over the door speakers to the dash speakers is really tricky, particularly because the door speakers are close to your hips. You don't want to have weirdness where you have some of a voice coming from the dash and some of a voice coming from your hips. You want to try and set that as you can (meaning have a dash speaker that can go low for a midrange --- like 250Hz)

 

[maw1124]

If you do all that, I highly suggest that you use active crossovers instead of passive crossovers! Where to cross over the door speakers to the dash speakers is really tricky, particularly because the door speakers are close to your hips. You don't want to have weirdness where you have some of a voice coming from the dash and some of a voice coming from your hips. You want to try and set that as you can (meaning have a dash speaker that can go low for a midrange --- like 250Hz)

The concern you've highlighted is exactly appropriate @Jlaa. Am I misremembering or isn’t there a factory impedance based crossover mechanism between the doors and the dash. IIRC, that’s what crosses mine over (installer repurposed), so the dash and door coaxials are still playing the intended factory frequencies. Unfortunately I wasn’t there for the install so I’m not quite sure “how” but I recall it being based upon the type of capacitor the factory used to produce roll off frequencies. All over my head, but @dionphaneuf definitely be on the lookout for that in your inline wiring (amp to door, then crossed over up to the dash).

maw

 

[gsxr]

The factory drivers are all weird impedances. The door midbass are 2 ohms, the right dash speaker is 4 ohms, and the left dash is a dual voicecoil with 6 ohms each. If you replace any with aftermarket (which are almost always 4 ohms) and keep the factory amps, the results may be suboptimal.

It's really an all-or-nothing endeavor, although Rainbows in the dash (with no other changes) can make a slight/moderate improvement depending on what karat of gold your ears are.

 

[dionphaneuf]

I swore I'd read that the fronts did have a cross over of some form, but the documentation below seems to suggest otherwise as the lines from each amp to the Dash/Door speakers on each side are simply parallel and not boxed in a 'speaker group' box (which includes schematically illustrated caps/inductors), so I'll defer to @gsxr on this.

So perhaps another option would be to ditch the three ways at the front and leave the factory set up there (possibly refreshing the door speakers w similar items if you can find 5-6" 2ohm speakers) and keeping the dash speakers as is (or making a very well characterized upgrade like Rainbows), but add the rear deck woofer (to address the bass shortcomings of the stock system) and the 4+1 amp that would drive the system more or less as the two stock amps did (and yield a technology upgrade of ~30 years). Rear L, Rear R, and Sub each get their own channel, and the front dash/woofer share a channel on each side. You could probably do this for ~$1300, which isn't too bad, but it's not clear how much of an upgrade it would represent vs factory, or what the delta to the Jehnert set up would be (which I think is closer to 2x that price).

This can at times feel like an almost Sisyphean uphill battle against the limitations of the system architecture and speaker placement and perhaps this middle road is the worst of all worlds. You're better off biting the bullet and going full @Jlaa w Jehnerts and a better amp, or just leaving it stock. In my 944 I chose the latter approach (I replaced old broken woofers in the door 3 ways we factory replacements) and the sound was good, but not great, and I always wanted more. I suppose that if you know you'll be keeping the car and using it a lot, the investment is worth it.

 

[Jlaa]

The factory drivers are all weird impedances. The door midbass are 2 ohms, the right dash speaker is 4 ohms, and the left dash is a dual voicecoil with 6 ohms each. If you replace any with aftermarket (which are almost always 4 ohms) and keep the factory amps, the results may be suboptimal.

It's really an all-or-nothing endeavor,

I agree with this.

although Rainbows in the dash (with no other changes) can make a slight/moderate improvement depending on what karat of gold your ears are.

I had Rainbows in the dash with stock everything else. They were okay for my tastes. In my opinion, so so so so much difference comes from time alignment and optimizing phasing between midbasses.

In order to do that, you need a fancy DSP.

If you like the built in Becker head unit, then the only way to get a fancy DSP is to get it built in to the amp ($$$) or to get a standalone DSP in conjunction with the amp ($$$$).

So if you get a fancy DSP-enabled amp, then most likely that amp is capable of doing active crossovering .....

So if you amp can do that, then you might as well go whole hog on all the speakers....

 

[maw1124]

The factory drivers are all weird impedances. The door midbass are 2 ohms, the right dash speaker is 4 ohms, and the left dash is a dual voicecoil with 6 ohms each. If you replace any with aftermarket (which are almost always 4 ohms) and keep the factory amps, the results may be suboptimal.

It's really an all-or-nothing endeavor

Here again @gsxr you're reading my mind. Seeing the way they did mixed impedances on the W220 and realizing WHY (less power needed to reproduce low frequencies) I had wondered whether they did the same thing here.

My system was of the tear out variety @dionphaneuf, so my fancy DSP that @Jlaa mentions is all in the head unit. That's sort of why I went that route. Somehow, my fronts got crossed over between the doors and dash but I don't remember how. The original installer must have done it, because when I was going to have an expert friend go back in to see if I needed a crossover, he was the one who thought they were perhaps already crossed over from the factory with capacitors (that's sort of his core business -- I learned tons from him). But once he heard it he was like "don't touch it."

That original install was by the guys who have cared for the car since the '90s, as they were the only people I would trust to touch the wiring on this car at the time (2011, noob, didn't know anything about the car). Their tear out and install bill was where the money was spent, not really the components. So I steam cleaned the carpet and dyed the center console black while it was all out.

But having modern DSP in the head unit with this car's sound stage and speaker placement has made that worthwhile by multiples of the price, if that's any encouragement. Of course, I don't get to look at a vintage head unit, so there are trade offs. I was just talking to the guys at Becker about this the other day.

maw

EDIT… if I had to do it all over again and wanted to keep the factory head unit, I’d probably go @Jlaa way, using some 2 ohm 5.25” drivers for the doors and 4” coaxials for the dash (or Jehner door boards). Those are not all that expensive and are readily available. You’d still need to do something in the back for a subwoofer and repurpose the center roller control as a subwoofer level control. That sounds like a great DSP amp running on speaker level inputs off the factory amps, which you‘d probably want to send to Becker for refurbishment along with your head unit. Call them one morning and talk to Tom.

 

[gsxr]

I swore I'd read that the fronts did have a cross over of some form, but the documentation below seems to suggest otherwise as the lines from each amp to the Dash/Door speakers on each side are simply parallel and not boxed in a 'speaker group' box (which includes schematically illustrated caps/inductors), so I'll defer to @gsxr on this.

Yup, the dash speakers do have passive crossovers. The door midbass also has crossovers inside the plastic enclosure. Pics below from here.

 

[maw1124]

Yup, the dash speakers do have passive crossovers. The door midbass also has crossovers inside the plastic enclosure. Pics below from here.

Right… I knew I wasn’t going crazy… well I might be, but this forgetfulness wasn’t symptomatic of that.

And now that you’ve answered my latent impedance question (and knowing what I’ve learned), I MIGHT search for some 2 ohm 5.25” drivers to run in the doors off my 4 ohm load. If I have this correct that should “enhance the bass” coming from the doors (low pass is at 100 Hz). With the head unit EQ I can dial it in from there. That’s simple enough not to be a science project. The beautiful thing about this is, except for my head unit, all of this looks and feels stock. It just doesn’t sound stock. And because Alpine hasn’t changed their basic design language since I was in high school, it feels period correct. It literally feels like the same Alpine head units people were putting in their cars back in the late 80’s. There’s just a whole lot more inside than bass, treble, balance and fader.

And, you should have just made @dionphaneuf job a bit easier.

maw

EDIT… the 2 ohm driver thing in this car doesn’t make sense. Just get high efficiency speakers, which I already have. But you can just clip the tweeters off of coaxials for this purpose, which I didn’t know. This might free up some space behind the grille since they’re crossed over anyway and you’re not using the tweeter.

EDIT 2… Snoop reading my posts…

 

[duuder]

i did the same as well w/ speakers i replaced on my owned, FYI you can fit larger speakers at the 2 front corners instead of having Rainbows in all 4 corners. its worth getting it all done in one shot

I agree with this.



I had Rainbows in the dash with stock everything else. They were okay for my tastes. In my opinion, so so so so much difference comes from time alignment and optimizing phasing between midbasses.

In order to do that, you need a fancy DSP.

If you like the built in Becker head unit, then the only way to get a fancy DSP is to get it built in to the amp ($$$) or to get a standalone DSP in conjunction with the amp ($$$$).

So if you get a fancy DSP-enabled amp, then most likely that amp is capable of doing active crossovering .....

So if you amp can do that, then you might as well go whole hog on all the speakers....