Hi guys can anybody confirm if this is one of the original 12 Factory E60 limited's
VIN= WDB1240361C206302
https://www.datamb.com/vin/l7rjKDXd4j2pN38BP
VIN= WDB1240361C206302
https://www.datamb.com/vin/l7rjKDXd4j2pN38BP
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Help with data card, genuine E60 one of 12?
- Thread starter Richard E60
- Start date
Yes, the car has both codes 957 and 958, which would mean it was a "factory" E60 Limited.
However, there are far more than 12 cars with both of these codes on the data card, as evidenced by the list at the link below.
Please do not repeat this "one of original 12" number, as it is DEFINITELY not accurate. There are, in fact, 45 cars that show both of these codes. And, in fact, 17 cars are listed on their EPC data cards as "E60 AMG," with the rest being listed as "E500."
Again I repeat, saying "one of 12" E60 Limiteds is INCORRECT AND WRONG and should not be perpetuated.
The facts speak for themselves, and the EPC data is the only and best place that shows the true facts.
https://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11754
Even more data is available in this post: https://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11754&p=159489&viewfull=1#post159489
Seeing as you posted this in the "AMG cars" sub-forum, why did you not just look down a few threads and find this exact information? You would have seen this VIN as being on the list of E60 Limited models.
Cheers,
Gerry
However, there are far more than 12 cars with both of these codes on the data card, as evidenced by the list at the link below.
Please do not repeat this "one of original 12" number, as it is DEFINITELY not accurate. There are, in fact, 45 cars that show both of these codes. And, in fact, 17 cars are listed on their EPC data cards as "E60 AMG," with the rest being listed as "E500."
Again I repeat, saying "one of 12" E60 Limiteds is INCORRECT AND WRONG and should not be perpetuated.
The facts speak for themselves, and the EPC data is the only and best place that shows the true facts.
https://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11754
Even more data is available in this post: https://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11754&p=159489&viewfull=1#post159489
Seeing as you posted this in the "AMG cars" sub-forum, why did you not just look down a few threads and find this exact information? You would have seen this VIN as being on the list of E60 Limited models.
Cheers,
Gerry
Everything Gerry said above, with the added comment that since the datacard shows it as E500, most likely this car was converted post-delivery.
I still am not sure where the number 12 came from, but of the 45 total with 957+958, only 16 show "E60" as model designation in the datacard, which is still not 12.
Well, some of it comes from the horse's mouth....
https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/ats_vehicle/mercedes-benz-e60-amg-limited/
https://www.mercedes-benz.com/en/ats_vehicle/mercedes-benz-e60-amg-limited/
This "one of 12" thing for E60 Limiteds is getting to be just like the "all E500s were NOT assembled by Porsche at Rossle Bau" thing. Sigh.
The EPC data cards back it up -- there are 17 that show "E60 AMG" on the card, along with the 958 ("Limited Package") code in the SA code list. And 28 more cars that show "E500" along with the 957 and 958 codes. This is irrefutable evidence that there were 45 cars, produced and documented by the factory, as having both 6-liter engines, and being Limited models.
Unfortunately, this is a case where the factory is just ... plain ... WRONG.
The EPC data cards back it up -- there are 17 that show "E60 AMG" on the card, along with the 958 ("Limited Package") code in the SA code list. And 28 more cars that show "E500" along with the 957 and 958 codes. This is irrefutable evidence that there were 45 cars, produced and documented by the factory, as having both 6-liter engines, and being Limited models.
And Dave, my check of the EPC + DataMB derivative site, shows 17, not 16, cars as marked "E60 AMG" on the data cards. Per the table in the other thread.
Everything Gerry said above, with the added comment that since the datacard shows it as E500, most likely this car was converted post-delivery.
I still am not sure where the number 12 came from, but of the 45 total with 957+958, only 16 show "E60" as model designation in the datacard, which is still not 12.
I think at some point there was one for sale here in Norway...and i remember in the ad it also said "one out of 12"...but i think the seller mentioned "one out of 12 in THIS particular" color.....or something...which can be very much the case.
i dont know..but i mean..it has to come from somewhere...and it may have been taken out of context as time went by..and replies fed replies..and it snowballed..basically
I am in the process of expanding & updating the table that lists all 45 E60 Limited models, to include exterior + interior color combo, and a perma-link to the MBData.com data card for each car.
https://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11754&p=159489&viewfull=1#post159489
Cheers,
Gerry
https://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11754&p=159489&viewfull=1#post159489
Cheers,
Gerry
See, this is what happens when I don't take off my shoes when counting past 10. You'd think by now I'd have learned my lesson!And Dave, my check of the EPC + DataMB derivative site, shows 17, not 16, cars as marked "E60 AMG" on the data cards. Per the table in the other thread.
Evidently, you didn't pay enough attention to the lessons of your OTHER uncle....See, this is what happens when I don't take off my shoes when counting past 10. You'd think by now I'd have learned my lesson!
[video=youtube;7MxqcqAIIvY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MxqcqAIIvY[/video]
I didn't say it was one of the 12 I asked was it one if the 12 which it is now obviously not according to you guys. A converted e500 it is then.
There is no such thing as "one of the 12," whether asking a question or making a statement.
The question should have been "Is/Was it one of the 45?"
This number has been well-documented on this forum for quite some time.
I made it even more explicit, here, so that we can help extinguish this "one of the 12" fallacy once and for all.
The question should have been "Is/Was it one of the 45?"
This number has been well-documented on this forum for quite some time.
I made it even more explicit, here, so that we can help extinguish this "one of the 12" fallacy once and for all.
Maybe semantics, but the VIN in question in EPC says E500 and ALSO AMG E 6.0. How is this considered a non-original converted car?
if EPC says AMG 6.0 and has codes 957 and 958, it's a legit E60 Limited from MB.
Now, if the # of legit E60 Limiteds is 45, or whatever, and not 12, so be it, but this car is a legit E60 Limited. Saying the car is "converted", gives the impression it was a stock E500 with a crate engine dropped in.
if EPC says AMG 6.0 and has codes 957 and 958, it's a legit E60 Limited from MB.
Now, if the # of legit E60 Limiteds is 45, or whatever, and not 12, so be it, but this car is a legit E60 Limited. Saying the car is "converted", gives the impression it was a stock E500 with a crate engine dropped in.
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If the data card says “E60 AMG” in the car type field, and has codes 957+958, as 17 of them do, then it’s pretty safe to say that the car was recognized by the factory as, and likely left it as, an E60 AMG LIMITED model.
It has not been definitively proven one way or the other, but some folks believe that cars marked “E500” on the data card, yet have codes 957+958, may have been converted after they left the factory/were delivered to dealer or owner.
IMHO, that’s semantics. 957+958 prove definitively that the car is an AMG 6-liter E500 Limited model.
The issue I have is this false “one of 12” myth, propagated in part by MB (probably unknowingly) and repeated online ad nauseum. This simply is counter to the facts and data that we have.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that the VIN in question is NOT an AMG E60 Limited. It’s just not one of 12. It’s rather one of 45 with the right codes checked.
There is also conflicting information as to whether data cards can be/were modified after a car was produced and left the factory/was sold.
I personally believe that all 45 cars with codes 957+958 probably left the factory in AMG spec (or were sent directly to AMG for conversion), and the “E500” type listing was an oversight by whomever entered the data into the VeDoc system.
That would be an interesting question as to when the AMG goodies were installed: by Porsche at Rössle Bau or by AMG in Affalterbach.
Cheers,
Gerry
It has not been definitively proven one way or the other, but some folks believe that cars marked “E500” on the data card, yet have codes 957+958, may have been converted after they left the factory/were delivered to dealer or owner.
IMHO, that’s semantics. 957+958 prove definitively that the car is an AMG 6-liter E500 Limited model.
The issue I have is this false “one of 12” myth, propagated in part by MB (probably unknowingly) and repeated online ad nauseum. This simply is counter to the facts and data that we have.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that the VIN in question is NOT an AMG E60 Limited. It’s just not one of 12. It’s rather one of 45 with the right codes checked.
There is also conflicting information as to whether data cards can be/were modified after a car was produced and left the factory/was sold.
I personally believe that all 45 cars with codes 957+958 probably left the factory in AMG spec (or were sent directly to AMG for conversion), and the “E500” type listing was an oversight by whomever entered the data into the VeDoc system.
That would be an interesting question as to when the AMG goodies were installed: by Porsche at Rössle Bau or by AMG in Affalterbach.
Cheers,
Gerry
Each of the cars that I showed in this chart, have been checked directly with both the EPC and via aftermarket/public VIN site (in this case, DataMB), and discrepancies have been noted in the table.
In my opinion, if a car is not one of the 45 cars that have 957+958 in the EPC codes, then it is certainly not a "factory" E60 AMG Limited model. It may have been converted after the car was sold by the owner, by direct arrangement with AMG, but if this was the case, it would not be indicated in the EPC data card.
I agree, any car that was converted after the fact, would need to be verified using other means, if it was being represented as an E60 AMG/Limited model.
If a car was so verified by mechanical means (supporting paperwork would make it all the better), and the conversion was indeed performed "after the fact" by AMG itself, then I would agree that the car can and should be considered an E60 AMG (+Limited if applicable) model. Just not a "factory" example.
In my opinion, if a car is not one of the 45 cars that have 957+958 in the EPC codes, then it is certainly not a "factory" E60 AMG Limited model. It may have been converted after the car was sold by the owner, by direct arrangement with AMG, but if this was the case, it would not be indicated in the EPC data card.
I agree, any car that was converted after the fact, would need to be verified using other means, if it was being represented as an E60 AMG/Limited model.
If a car was so verified by mechanical means (supporting paperwork would make it all the better), and the conversion was indeed performed "after the fact" by AMG itself, then I would agree that the car can and should be considered an E60 AMG (+Limited if applicable) model. Just not a "factory" example.
I am going to put in a direct inquiry about this question to my contact at Porsche, who ran the program back in the day, and see what he says.
Seems even Mercedes/AMG has issues with providing accurate information to the public, the 1 of 12 E60 is one. Another issue I run into is Mercedes/AMG saying that the C36 is the first collaboration between the two, which is absolutely false. It would only apply if they were to say "The Mercedes C36 is the first Mercedes/AMG collaboration offered in North America"
As Gerry already said, if you pull the EPC datacard and it has no AMG items listed in the options code, then it was converted after it left Mercedes and sold. These are common to find and hard to verify if it was done by a tuner shop or by AMG, so you really need the AMG documentation to provide provenance
As Gerry already said, if you pull the EPC datacard and it has no AMG items listed in the options code, then it was converted after it left Mercedes and sold. These are common to find and hard to verify if it was done by a tuner shop or by AMG, so you really need the AMG documentation to provide provenance
They’re just keeping up with the Jonses (BMWs).
That would be most interesting if he could supply that information. It would not surprise me one bit to learn that the cars were fully or nearly fully assembled and then shipped to AMG where they were disassembled as required and rebuilt. Super inefficient, but I’ll bet that’s how it was done...
I think at some point there was one for sale here in Norway...and i remember in the ad it also said "one out of 12"...but i think the seller mentioned "one out of 12 in THIS particular" color.....or something...which can be very much the case.
i dont know..but i mean..it has to come from somewhere...and it may have been taken out of context as time went by..and replies fed replies..and it snowballed..basically
Here’s the datacard of the E60 mentioned. It was for sale here in Norway in 2014. As far as I know it was sold to Germany. Arnt knows the details.
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Hi Ingvar,
This is a real deal E60 Limited! both 957+958 codes in the service book and code 981 (REG. DOC. OMISSION AND NO ABE NO. ON TYPE LABEL) which I am investigating further, as it might be related to the cars being delivered to AMG for the technical changes and not directly to dealers.
Note that in the service book datacard and epc they all show up as E500.
Vehicles without ABE number (includes omission of registration documents) on the type plate are usually export vehicles/not for the German domestic market. As a reference see attached photo of the type plate of my swiss spec 190E 2.5-16
As stated earlier, the amg components have been retrofitted after assembly of the vehicle.
First car partially produced at amg was the W210 AMG versions, where the pre assembled chassis arrived in Affalterbach and there was the drive train and axles retrofitted. The ready assembled bodies have been delivered in crates without drive train components in 40 Ton trucks.
As stated earlier, the amg components have been retrofitted after assembly of the vehicle.
First car partially produced at amg was the W210 AMG versions, where the pre assembled chassis arrived in Affalterbach and there was the drive train and axles retrofitted. The ready assembled bodies have been delivered in crates without drive train components in 40 Ton trucks.
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But Code 981 is not found in most non-germany vehicles, my E60 and the 2 E60 LTD VINs mentioned above have the code although they were ordered for Germany dealers. I suspect it had to do with the engines being not standard production line and COC certificate with different spec issued later
I just went across 20 or so cars of the E60/E60 Ltd and Ltd list. However the cars having code 981 have all a vehicle ownership title number starting with TL in the documentation which was entered shortly after the production was completed. All other cars without 981 are blank there. No matter if E60/E60 Ltd /Ltd.
