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High Performance Stainless Steel Headers

I have installed some of the dyno-comp / mbh manifolds on n/a m156 63 s, even without a different mapping the difference is noticeable, especially in the mid and upper rev range. Dyno indeed shows in the range of +/- 35hp.
Fitment and quality is good. Definitely 3y is the way to go. Just space wise a longtube will be ready difficult to realise. Supers print makes nice headers too, I installed several in the current and previous AMG range. Big bump in the 113K engines not so much in the M156s.
I will go for a set if it ever comes to reality but only with reground cams, standard dbilas. Only a combination makes real sense. unfortunately nobody can't alter the ignition module.
 
Oooooh awesome. Looking forward to seeing the dyno results!

[sub]Though, 30hp for $5.5k means $183 per hp ... Pricey ;) [/sub]
 
Well, I'm going to take the plunge (hopefully in 2-3 months) and have a set of long tube headers and 300 cell cats custom build by Dyno Comp out of Arizona. They have a done a few headers for w124 chassis in the past; an E500, 400E and E420 cars with 30hp gains that were dyno proven. They still have a jig from the E500 headers, but it's an old jig and they prefer to make custom headers to be sure the fitment is not going to be an issue. They did mention that they are aware of the fitment issues the 036 cars have and the owner of the shop loves the 036 cars and said making proper headers is not a problem, as long as they have the car in their hands. When they made the headers for the W124 cars, all cars were in their hands, so my only option is to send my car over to them for a week and they can have their car delivery service pick up and drop off my car in L.A. for $300. The cost for making custom headers and cats and the labor to install them will be $5.5K. I was told that I will yield at least 30hp and that the car would be dyno'ed before and after the work is done. http://dyno-comp.com/tuning.php

Bellow is an example of what they offer - http://dyno-comp.com/details.php?browse_make=Mercedes&model=68&type=80&browse_submit=GO unfortunately the headers and cats listed there are not what I can buy for my car, so I don't mind paying a bit more for a custom job and with prove of the hp gains.
I call that promised HP gain bullshit right here, right now. Also HP is not Torque. HP is a calculated number and its quite easy to gain them with raising RPMs and shifting maps. Still you would get ZERO increase in 0-60 times or at the track, whatsoever. So what is the promised Torque gain?

Ask yourself some questions...
- Why was there no bigger tuner ever doing headers for the M119? And i mean for ALL M119s, not only in the tight space W124s engine bay ;-)
No Brabus, No AMG, no Hagmann, no MKB, no Väth, no Löwer, simply NOBODY! And if you ask those tuners, they will answer you and tell you its not worth it on the M119s compared to the stock manifolds.
- Why did this one guy with his SL500 (from Taiwan, or Philippines, dunno) in this forums gained ZERO HP from his custom made Longtube Headers? Why is that??? Search the forums ;-)

Regarding catalytic converters: 300cell gives you nothing as stock is 400cell. I'm running 2x 100cell per square inch already ;-)
Alone such a statement shows me that those guys have no clue about catalytic converters.

My suggestion to you: Save yourself that money! Save it, add another 5.5K$ and build yourself a 6L ;-)

I have installed some of the dyno-comp / mbh manifolds on n/a m156 63 s, even without a different mapping the difference is noticeable, especially in the mid and upper rev range. Dyno indeed shows in the range of +/- 35hp.
Fitment and quality is good. Definitely 3y is the way to go. Just space wise a longtube will be ready difficult to realise. Supers print makes nice headers too, I installed several in the current and previous AMG range. Big bump in the 113K engines not so much in the M156s.
I will go for a set if it ever comes to reality but only with reground cams, standard dbilas. Only a combination makes real sense. unfortunately nobody can't alter the ignition module.

Yes and its no wonder on the M156. Don't take that as a role model for the M119s.
Just take a look at the M156 stock manifolds - Its the very same crap as with 113K ones. Highly restricting!!!
See:
!BlILf1!BGk~$(KGrHqMH-DcEt!iOKjOYBL,Z)Fcb6w~~_12.JPG
We have the same nonsense design here. First cylinders exhaust gases have to work against all other 3 in its way till the exit/collector. Collector inner diameter looks tiny yet again.

Also, please notice that the M156 has over 500HP.
So even if the stock M119 exhaust manifolds were as restricting as the M156 ones - and they are NOT, then we still would only see gains in the ballpark of 15-20HP.
And please remember that 10-15HP is always in the normal "spread" of a dyno at 320HP engines. Also just some few degrees hotter IATs can cost you 10-15HP++

The M113K engine profits from headers so much because:
a) its a supercharged engine, not N/A
b) it only has ONE exhaust valve per cylinder.
c) the stock exhaust manifold is HIGHLY restricting with a design, where the first cylinders exhausts has to work against 3 others in its way to the exit/collector, a collector which is only 1.6 inches in its inner diameter
End of story.
 
Oooooh awesome. Looking forward to seeing the dyno results!

[SUB]Though, 30hp for $5.5k means $183 per hp ... Pricey ;) [/SUB]
Yes, some very expensive "Pferde" indeed :). I have used this measurement in the past too....particularly compared with NOS. The NOS always wins hands-down :)

Dyno results speak for themselves and nobody in 10 years has been able to put up before and after dyno results of gains from anything except the WOT LH module and the NOS system.
 
Damn...if I didn't know better, you would think I'm going to spend someone else's money. I have no idea what was build in Taiwan or Philippines for the 500SL owner and frankly I do not care. No offense, but having someone in Taiwan or Philippines build me set of headers would be the last choice on my list and I would have to be quite drunk to even entertain the idea...

I took all comments here in stride and have emailed Dyno Comp with a few additional questions, so I hope to have a few more answers by next week. I really want to take this plunge and see what can be done by a shop that builds headers for Indy cars. On top of that, 3/4 of the cost for the work is going to be funded by Uncle Sam, so why not give it a shot. Dyno Comp came highly recommend for working on older and new Mercedes, so I feel I will be in the right hands for this job.

Oh yeah, a 6.0L upgrade is no where near $11K...try north of $23K and if I was to go route, Väth would be the only place I would buy all of the parts from and I would not settle for only 380hp...
 
6.0L can be done for roughly $10-$15k using custom parts... i.e. custom pistons, custom gaskets, etc. That assumes if you are capable of a DIY engine build (most people couldn't do it though). Add on a bunch for labor if paying a shop to build the motor for you.

The majority of the cost of the ~$25k engine is paying the outrageous prices for the OE AMG pistons, gaskets ($1k EACH!), con rods, and so on; from either Väth or AMG. Are the OE parts worth that much more? I don't think so, at least not with today's technology. The problem is, only a handful of shops in the US would be capable of building a motor like this. I believe Jono did a 6.0L tall-deck M119.960 already... wonder what the final cost of it was.

On the plus side, a well-built 6.0 motor is absolutely guaranteed to make at least 380-400hp, maybe more if it's tweaked a bit.

:spend:
 
Well, I'm going to take the plunge (hopefully in 2-3 months) and have a set of long tube headers and 300 cell cats custom build by Dyno Comp out of Arizona. They have a done a few headers for w124 chassis in the past; an E500, 400E and E420 cars with 30hp gains that were dyno proven. They still have a jig from the E500 headers, but it's an old jig and they prefer to make custom headers to be sure the fitment is not going to be an issue. They did mention that they are aware of the fitment issues the 036 cars have and the owner of the shop loves the 036 cars and said making proper headers is not a problem, as long as they have the car in their hands. When they made the headers for the W124 cars, all cars were in their hands, so my only option is to send my car over to them for a week and they can have their car delivery service pick up and drop off my car in L.A. for $300. The cost for making custom headers and cats and the labor to install them will be $5.5K. I was told that I will yield at least 30hp and that the car would be dyno'ed before and after the work is done. http://dyno-comp.com/tuning.php

Bellow is an example of what they offer - http://dyno-comp.com/details.php?browse_make=Mercedes&model=68&type=80&browse_submit=GO unfortunately the headers and cats listed there are not what I can buy for my car, so I don't mind paying a bit more for a custom job and with prove of the hp gains.

You will be in them well of $6K by the time you get your car back, that's crazy money for 30hp gains no ???

You should have them guarantee the 30 + Hp gains, find out what they say about TQ #'s and get the car dyno before and after yourself to confirm.

Dyno #'s are not that hard for them to fudge.
 
I got the shop and the guy to build me whatever I want...as long as I have the $. I would only settle for OE parts for the 6.0 job and it would be tweaked borderlining detonation...
 
... get the car dyno before and after yourself to confirm. Dyno #'s are not that hard for them to fudge.
This is true. I would HIGHLY recommend getting your OWN dyno run before they take the car, at a local dyno shop. When you get it back, dyno it again at the same shop. As Karl said, dyno numbers can be fudged. Having your own dyno runs done (in addition to theirs) would be extra confirmation of the gains. If they show 30hp on two different dynos, nobody will be able to dispute it. Cheap insurance. Great idea, Karl!

:deniro:



I would only settle for OE parts for the 6.0 job and it would be tweaked borderlining detonation...
For a budget build, I would get a spare motor, so you are not touching your original/stock engine. I'd go for the ~$12k 6.0L and see what happens. Beat the hell out of it, and if it blows up, you still have your stock motor as an insurance policy. I have a feeling that new piston and coating technology might work every bit as well as the old-skool Mahle/AMG stuff, for a fraction of the price. Same with gaskets, why pay $2500/pair when you can have custom stuff produced in a USA race shop for $250/pair? Don't need to buy the rods either, the stock ones can be machined... etc, etc. If I had the $$ burning a hole in my pocket I'd be sorely tempted to try this myself. I just might do it eventually. Biggest hurdle for me is finding a machine shop that can bore and etch Alusil blocks... not likely anyone here in Spudland will have the Sunnen machine...

:scratchchin:
 
You will be in them well of $6K by the time you get your car back, that's crazy money for 30hp gains no ???
No. Plus he majority of the cost is not out of my pocket, so 30hp for $2K out of pocket is fine by me.

You should have them guarantee the 30 + Hp gains, find out what they say about TQ #'s and get the car dyno before and after yourself to confirm.
I was told that a 30hp gain is not going to be a problem and I have asked about the torque numbers on which I'm waiting on. I will have the car dyno'ed in L.A. as well, when I'll get the car back from Arizona. Either way, this job is going to happen and I feel quite comfortable being the test mule in this case...
 
For a budget build, I would get a spare motor, so you are not touching your original/stock engine.
That is the plan and I have a lead on a engine from a 1992 500E with only 42K original miles. Honestly, if I had the spare $ on hand, I would be pursuing the 6.0 conversion and with custom headers and cams (the cams would be from Väth as well and they have a few performance types to choose from).
 
just sent of stock cams to my grinder in the EU, should have some by summer. If you are willing to part with you car for a few months, we will build you a set of headers for around 2k (basicly parts), just to have a car to model them on. Once they are up and running, I can have my header manufacturer use them to produce them for me (we'll get them scanned in to solidworks). Chipping isn't something I have looked in to, we are going the stand alone route and reflashing on newer cars.
 
This "Ballin' on a Budget" cheap performance upgrade stuff has GOT to go.....I still say that $15K is a minimum final bill even for a well-executed "DIY" 6.0, everything included. And IMHO it's really more like $20K. For 60-80 HP gain, absolutely not worth it. Even for $10K ... not worth it.

Look, over the past 10+ years ......
  • How many E500E owners here in the US have successfully pursued 6.0 upgrade builds, using AMG, MB, Vaeth or custom components?
  • How many E500E owners have installed exhaust systems or headers that have have been dyno-proven to provide substantial (>10) HP gains?
  • How many E500E owners here in the US have installed superchargers or turbos on their cars?
  • How many E500E owners here in the US have chipped their cars to provide more power?
  • How many E500E owners have successfully remapped their LH systems, or have installed better/programmable fuel injection systems?
If the answer is not Zero, it's certainly well less than one could count on a single hand.

There has been A LOT of talk about this stuff, but precious little "real world" action on performance mods outside of nitrous-oxide and 1992/Euro LH modules.

I think I've coined a new phrase: "Timeslips and/or certified dyno sheets or it didn't happen." :pc1:

Cheers,
Gerry
 
I agree with Gerry on costs. My Mercedes experience is zip but I've built enough muscle cars to know what a decent engine build costs. The last stroker motor I built was over $10k and that was an iron block using all eagle forged internals. Pimpin' ain't easy.

Eagle forged crank
1995 F4TE 351W block
Eagle forged 6.2 Ibeam rods, 28 cc forged pistons
Comp Cam 35-514-8 http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=1056&sb=0
Trick Flow 185 CNC Heads
Ford roller lifters
Harland Sharp 1.6 Roller rockers
Lightning 90 mm MAF

RJM EFI engine harness
EGR delete
42 lb EV6 Ford Racing Injectors M-9593-F302
Ford GT-40 tubular upper and lower
90 mm BBK Throttle body
A9P ECU
Moates Quarterhorse tunner
Innovate wideband LC-1 O2
 
The .036 with its status is not for tuning anymore, Any "non-official" modifications will affect value and status .. and won't get you much more power either.

I personally would have considered a set of headers for the .036 .. But don't think its technically possible and/or would gain much.

Even the Designer tuning (Brabus,Carlsson,etc..) was limited in its days and costs $$$,$$$.- ! ...while $10K on a modern AMG/V12 would get you to tear-up Porsche Turbos and C6Z !
 
The .036 with its status is not for tuning anymore, Any "non-official" modifications will affect value and status .. and won't get you much more power either.

I personally would have considered a set of headers for the .036 .. But don't think its technically possible and/or would gain much.

Even the Designer tuning (Brabus,Carlsson,etc..) was limited in its days and costs $$$,$$$.- ! ...while $10K on a modern AMG/V12 would get you to tear-up Porsche Turbos and C6Z !

Right, We must not forget what kind of a car the 036 was in it's contemporary days. Now almost 20 years from the last produced 124 036
we still belive, demand for it to put up with much younger competition. Not a bad renomme' to have, a true dream car for the few to have
for most unachievable, then suddenly anyone could get one or two, drive them to almost misery and beyond R.O.I most did not
have what it took to restore or even make them run very well. Many issues and "trolls" we have seen over the years.

Thankfully there came to the rescue, the 500ECSTASY community and we ( I for one ) slowly learned and sorted out problems and the know how.
Are we not asking too much from this nowadays classic or coming to be anyway, value is becoming higher fewer cars around.
It is a fine line not to cross when tuning modifying such a car, I think it should be contemporary OEM on the shelf, something MB or other
tuners did or could have done AND be reversable.

Today, the starting point should be, a good and true to the original car, before any attemt to take the steps of "tuning"
How many with the mod/tune mindset have driven a really good representative 500E, crisp and tight example, really?

Originality counts, the 500 was a very fine unique car when it first came, just think of it, read the history and try to
revive that feeling in that Time Machine of yours. Roger
 
Brandon... do you mean M119 cams? More aggressive, for 5L displacement? NEEEEED details!

:drool5:

yes, I borrowed a set from jono and sent them off. They are going to map them and then work up some profiles. May need to source a head, unless a standard 119 head is the same.
 
Damn...if I didn't know better, you would think I'm going to spend someone else's money. I have no idea what was build in Taiwan or Philippines for the 500SL owner and frankly I do not care. No offense, but having someone in Taiwan or Philippines build me set of headers would be the last choice on my list and I would have to be quite drunk to even entertain the idea...

I took all comments here in stride and have emailed Dyno Comp with a few additional questions, so I hope to have a few more answers by next week. I really want to take this plunge and see what can be done by a shop that builds headers for Indy cars. On top of that, 3/4 of the cost for the work is going to be funded by Uncle Sam, so why not give it a shot. Dyno Comp came highly recommend for working on older and new Mercedes, so I feel I will be in the right hands for this job.

Oh yeah, a 6.0L upgrade is no where near $11K...try north of $23K and if I was to go route, Väth would be the only place I would buy all of the parts from and I would not settle for only 380hp...
Just to make it clear regarding "Taiwan or Philippines Build", there is a forums member here on 500eboard from around that area in the world and he got himself build a custom "free flowing" exhaust including custom made long tube stainless steel headers, that looked right/perfect from the design and inner diameters, etc. Yet still IIRC it was close to ZERO performance gain on the Dyno. I guess one can find his thread by search.

Your $23K assumption for the 6L Block is right if you don't move a single finger for it, besides paying the money. But as a DIY with a good engine shop that does diameter reducing on a borrowed 5.6L M117 crank, boring, honing and silica polishing/etching, it should be well below €10K.
In my calculations with already confirmed engine shop prices and prices for pistons i was close to 8.000€. When i would go the route and let a shop doing complete head rework (valvestem guides and seals, valve grinding, new lifters, portmatching and polishing) on top and regrind cams or even custom billet camshafts, i would be around 10-12.000€.
Again assembling is still DIY then ;-) Ohh and including in that price i would have 2 complete sets of Headgaskets left over, as Elring does require at least 3 sets of headgaskets being bought for custom ones.

Väth? Väth does no magic. It also cooks with water. ;-)

The majority of the cost of the ~$25k engine is paying the outrageous prices for the OE AMG pistons, gaskets ($1k EACH!), con rods, and so on; from either Väth or AMG. Are the OE parts worth that much more? I don't think so, at least not with today's technology. The problem is, only a handful of shops in the US would be capable of building a motor like this. I believe Jono did a 6.0L tall-deck M119.960 already... wonder what the final cost of it was.

On the plus side, a well-built 6.0 motor is absolutely guaranteed to make at least 380-400hp, maybe more if it's tweaked a bit.

:spend:
That is all correct.
Regarding 6L AMG Power: I only repeat my sentence here over and over again. In the German AMG Owners Club there is an ex employee from AMG that worked supposedly with the M119s during that time and he said there wasnt a SINGLE ONE pushing LESS THAN 400HP ;-) Why Mercedes and AMG did rate them lower is a mystery still and one can imagine into that whatever one wants.
One hint might be the 6L V12 M120 engines (regarding the power delivered) and the price differences between a M119 equipped and a M120 equipped W140, C140 or R129 ;-) Talk about the "bang for the buck" here...

This is true. I would HIGHLY recommend getting your OWN dyno run before they take the car, at a local dyno shop. When you get it back, dyno it again at the same shop. As Karl said, dyno numbers can be fudged. Having your own dyno runs done (in addition to theirs) would be extra confirmation of the gains. If they show 30hp on two different dynos, nobody will be able to dispute it. Cheap insurance. Great idea, Karl!

:deniro:




For a budget build, I would get a spare motor, so you are not touching your original/stock engine. I'd go for the ~$12k 6.0L and see what happens. Beat the hell out of it, and if it blows up, you still have your stock motor as an insurance policy. I have a feeling that new piston and coating technology might work every bit as well as the old-skool Mahle/AMG stuff, for a fraction of the price. Same with gaskets, why pay $2500/pair when you can have custom stuff produced in a USA race shop for $250/pair? Don't need to buy the rods either, the stock ones can be machined... etc, etc. If I had the $$ burning a hole in my pocket I'd be sorely tempted to try this myself. I just might do it eventually. Biggest hurdle for me is finding a machine shop that can bore and etch Alusil blocks... not likely anyone here in Spudland will have the Sunnen machine...

:scratchchin:
I second everything you said. Piston that work flawlessly with Alusil blocks can be bought in germany by Woessner. Price IIRC around 300€/Piece including rings and coating. Lots of Porsche drivers extremely positive experiences here from the ractrack with custom build Alusil Blocks with Woessner pistons. Yes stock rods can be used and AMG/Brabus/Väth/MKB did likewise ;-)

I agree with Gerry on costs. My Mercedes experience is zip but I've built enough muscle cars to know what a decent engine build costs. The last stroker motor I built was over $10k and that was an iron block using all eagle forged internals. Pimpin' ain't easy.

Eagle forged crank
1995 F4TE 351W block
Eagle forged 6.2 Ibeam rods, 28 cc forged pistons
Comp Cam 35-514-8 http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam-specs/Details.aspx?csid=1056&sb=0
Trick Flow 185 CNC Heads
Ford roller lifters
Harland Sharp 1.6 Roller rockers
Lightning 90 mm MAF

RJM EFI engine harness
EGR delete
42 lb EV6 Ford Racing Injectors M-9593-F302
Ford GT-40 tubular upper and lower
90 mm BBK Throttle body
A9P ECU
Moates Quarterhorse tunner
Innovate wideband LC-1 O2
You need nowhere near as much customs stuff for a 6L M119.
Hell, for a basic version, Crank n' Rings, Pistons and Headgaskets would be enough. Most expensive parts are the pistons with approx. 2500€/Set and the machine work for boring/honing/etching + diameter reducing on the M117 cranks counterweights. followed by custom headgaskets....
 
I second everything you said. Piston that work flawlessly with Alusil blocks can be bought in germany by Woessner. Price IIRC around 300€/Piece including rings and coating. Lots of Porsche drivers extremely positive experiences here from the ractrack with custom build Alusil Blocks with Woessner pistons. Yes stock rods can be used and AMG/Brabus/Väth/MKB did likewise ;-)

we can get you Mahle for about $300 US a piston, need to confirm with my rep (that is the price for m113 pistons so I am thinking they are close). Nice thing is they are designed from the factory to work with Alusil. Going to be using them for my m117 6.0 build.
 
This "Ballin' on a Budget" cheap performance upgrade stuff has GOT to go.....I still say that $15K is a minimum final bill even for a well-executed "DIY" 6.0, everything included. And IMHO it's really more like $20K. For 60-80 HP gain, absolutely not worth it. Even for $10K ... not worth it.

Look, over the past 10+ years ......
  • How many E500E owners here in the US have successfully pursued 6.0 upgrade builds, using AMG, MB, Vaeth or custom components?
  • How many E500E owners have installed exhaust systems or headers that have have been dyno-proven to provide substantial (>10) HP gains?
  • How many E500E owners here in the US have installed superchargers or turbos on their cars?
  • How many E500E owners here in the US have chipped their cars to provide more power?
  • How many E500E owners have successfully remapped their LH systems, or have installed better/programmable fuel injection systems?
If the answer is not Zero, it's certainly well less than one could count on a single hand.

There has been A LOT of talk about this stuff, but precious little "real world" action on performance mods outside of nitrous-oxide and 1992/Euro LH modules.

I think I've coined a new phrase: "Timeslips and/or certified dyno sheets or it didn't happen." :pc1:

Cheers,
Gerry
I agree Gerry,
however you forget that its not only about 60-80HP gain at top end of the power-band (actually i would say rather 80hp++ and MASSIVE Torque increase), but rather a 6L will feel totally different from down-low and while daily driving and just a bit of a slight touching of the pedal.
I would assume a 6L M119 will have as much torque (or even more) at 1000RPM, as the normal 5L will have at its peak. What that means is not easy for me to put in words. Its probably as big of a difference as going from a E280E into a E500E, or from a S420 (W140) into a S600 (W140). It will be noticeable and worth it every time you drive the car, not only at the track or street race when pushing the NOS Button for a short amount of time.

Regarding the Price, yes if you do it perfect, means replacing everything that is called a bearing or a gasket or sealing, O-Ring, Chain, Chain-guide, hydraulic-lifter, valvespring, waterpump, etc, etc, including a full head-job, you will be likely in the 15.000$ range.

That is the plan and I have a lead on a engine from a 1992 500E with only 42K original miles. Honestly, if I had the spare $ on hand, I would be pursuing the 6.0 conversion and with custom headers and cams (the cams would be from Väth as well and they have a few performance types to choose from).
For a 6L project you could use the most crappy 5L available if its at least a early one with the full-block, not just with the later style inserted sleeves. You going to replace anything that moves in there anyway, arent you? :-)
Currently prices in german ebay for early M119.970, .972 and .974 engines have dropped to as low as 300€ for engines with 250.000KM or more (thats 160.000miles). Obviously without anything besides the water-pump and sometime you even get the intake-manifold and exhaust manifolds included.



we can get you Mahle for about $300 US a piston, need to confirm with my rep (that is the price for m113 pistons so I am thinking they are close). Nice thing is they are designed from the factory to work with Alusil. Going to be using them for my m117 6.0 build.
Well, if I would go and build a 6L, i would go to 11:1 compression ratio. That means totally different pistons, like Brabus used them for instance in their M119 builds. Question is, if they are also available for that price. :-)
But please go ahead an check that. If its including rings its a very very good price.
 
The problem with 11:1 compression is finding high octane gas. Around my neck of the woods 91 octane is the norm for premium which would barely be suitable for that type of compression.
 
Brandon, I'm sending you an email about the M119 cams... let me know if you don't receive it.

:bbq:
 
I agree Gerry, however you forget that its not only about 60-80HP gain at top end of the power-band (actually i would say rather 80hp++ and MASSIVE Torque increase), but rather a 6L will feel totally different from down-low and while daily driving and just a bit of a slight touching of the pedal. I would assume a 6L M119 will have as much torque (or even more) at 1000RPM, as the normal 5L will have at its peak. What that means is not easy for me to put in words. Its probably as big of a difference as going from a E280E into a E500E, or from a S420 (W140) into a S600 (W140). It will be noticeable and worth it every time you drive the car, not only at the track or street race when pushing the NOS Button for a short amount of time.
This is 100% correct. The off-idle power of the 6L engine is awesome, ditto the midrange part-throttle power. It's much more fun driving around town because you can access the torque without really trying. Great fun.


Regarding the Price, yes if you do it perfect, means replacing everything that is called a bearing or a gasket or sealing, O-Ring, Chain, Chain-guide, hydraulic-lifter, valvespring, waterpump, etc, etc, including a full head-job, you will be likely in the 15.000$ range.
If building a high-mileage engine, yes, many internals will need to be replaced. But I still think a LARGE portion of the ~$25k number being tossed around is labor from a professional shop. If you are paying a shop to build your engine, yep, probably gonna be $20k+. Parts alone should still be well under $10k, including the machine work. Camshafts are the big variable, right now there is no cheap source for 6L cams, although Brandon might be able to do something about that. :D


Well, if I would go and build a 6L, i would go to 11:1 compression ratio. That means totally different pistons, like Brabus used them for instance in their M119 builds. Question is, if they are also available for that price. :-) But please go ahead an check that. If its including rings its a very very good price.
Remember that Brabus only used 11:1 compression ratio on their 119.98x engines with ME injection. It might be risky doing this with LH injection and pump gas. No point in having the EZL pull timing (and power) constantly. As Maui said, we're stuck with 91 octane (R+M/2) for most of the USA.


:stirthepot:
 
Look, over the past 10+ years ...How many E500E owners have installed exhaust systems that have have been dyno-proven to provide substantial (>10) HP gains?
True and I myself didn't get a chance to dyno my car after my cat-back exhaust went on, but I do have time slips from numerous 1/4 mile runs where I got 14.01 to 14.08 E/T's as well as breaking 14 seconds. My cars does have lighter wheels but I also have the heavier SA brakes, a 27lb sub in the truck (spare tire and jack are still in the trunk), my tires are wider (245 and 275) and based on the rolling diameter of my 17" wheels/tires vs. stock 16" wheels/tires, my speed will be 0.3% slower. My gas in the tank was always just slightly above 1/4 full for the runs.

It seems a stock 036 averages the 1/4 mile in 14.5 seconds with a 14.3 time being considered fast. Based on that, how would my car rate compared to a fully stock 036?
 
Today, the starting point should be, a good and true to the original car, before any attemt to take the steps of "tuning"
How many with the mod/tune mindset have driven a really good representative 500E, crisp and tight example, really?

Originality counts, the 500 was a very fine unique car when it first came, just think of it, read the history and try to
revive that feeling in that Time Machine of yours. Roger



+1 What Roger said, it must be a real .036 first ! not a pile of used faulty MB parts that used to be one of the best cars ever built.

I think the majority would accept Light reversible upgrades and period correct tuning..as long as the car is still considered original.
 
I got plenty of 14.1s with my car stock on stock tires, and I know of multiple other stock cars that have gotten 13.9s and 14.0s.

14.3-14.5 is what average folks do with no practice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Remember that Brabus only used 11:1 compression ratio on their 119.98x engines with ME injection. It might be risky doing this with LH injection and pump gas. No point in having the EZL pull timing (and power) constantly. As Maui said, we're stuck with 91 octane (R+M/2) for most of the USA.

:stirthepot:
Well, my information was that Brabus used early M119.97x blocks, closed-deck blocks, otherwise their sick bores could not be achieved.
We have to find out what the differences between M119.97x and M119.980 are anyway. And i'm only talking about the whole block with heads, not the outer parts like flywheel, injection, ignition and so forth.
Because i believe Brabus did, even for the customers that came with stock .980 engines, used the closed-deck blocks, and simply added all "later" stuff to the engine from the original one.

Since i'm a new M119.980 owner in my C140 5.0, i learned through WIS that the M119.980 engine that i have has lighter pistons, smaller crank bearings, unified head with the 4.2 engines (means smaller valves! and other camshafts), later timing case cover for the 6rip belts/new tensioner and thats about it compared to the .974 engine.
Obviously, outside the whole block there is more, like ME 1.0 with WOT enrichment (yes thats right!), no crappy distributer ignition system, whole bunch less vacuum lines, 722.6 gearbox and other goodies. :p

Regarding Gas:
Thats very unfortunate. Brabus required 93octane (US rating) or 98+ octane (Europe rating) for their 11:1 6.xL M119 engines back in the time already. But hey, with those EZL Plugs we actually CAN retard ignition over the whole band in 3° increments ;-) AMG did so for its 6L.
 
When I lived in Oregon, 92 octane gas was the normal rating you'd find with Super, with the major brands (Chevron, Shell). For California, I have generally seen 91 octane as the highest. In Texas, 93 octane is the norm.
 
Well, my information was that Brabus used early M119.97x blocks, closed-deck blocks, otherwise their sick bores could not be achieved.
We have to find out what the differences between M119.97x and M119.980 are anyway. And i'm only talking about the whole block with heads, not the outer parts like flywheel, injection, ignition and so forth. Because i believe Brabus did, even for the customers that came with stock .980 engines, used the closed-deck blocks, and simply added all "later" stuff to the engine from the original one.
Yes, they used an early closed-deck block. But that has nothing to do with the compression ratio, which is determined by piston design and combustion chamber volume.


Since i'm a new M119.980 owner in my C140 5.0, i learned through WIS that the M119.980 engine that i have has lighter pistons, smaller crank bearings, unified head with the 4.2 engines (means smaller valves! and other camshafts), later timing case cover for the 6rip belts/new tensioner and thats about it compared to the .974 engine.
Most of the changes you describe appeared on the late 119.97x also (except the smaller intake valves, that was a .98x thing).


Obviously, outside the whole block there is more, like ME 1.0 with WOT enrichment (yes thats right!), no crappy distributer ignition system, whole bunch less vacuum lines, 722.6 gearbox and other goodies.
I only have one ME 1.0 engine and it does not have WOT enrichment. I'm don't think all years/models have this. :?:


Regarding Gas: Thats very unfortunate. Brabus required 93octane (US rating) or 98+ octane (Europe rating) for their 11:1 6.xL M119 engines back in the time already. But hey, with those EZL Plugs we actually CAN retard ignition over the whole band in 3° increments ;-) AMG did so for its 6L.
Increasing compression to help power and then reducing timing which reduces power makes no sense to me. There is only about ~3% power gain max for each 1 point compression ratio increase, so going from 10:1 to 11:1 would be about 10-12hp gain on a 6.0 motor. If you have high-octane fuel available where you live, great; otherwise I'd rather have the 10:1 engine. I don't think AMG ever built an 11:1 ratio in 6L displacement, might be a reason for that...


:scratchchin:
 
Yes, they used an early closed-deck block. But that has nothing to do with the compression ratio, which is determined by piston design and combustion chamber volume.



Most of the changes you describe appeared on the late 119.97x also (except the smaller intake valves, that was a .98x thing).



I only have one ME 1.0 engine and it does not have WOT enrichment. I'm don't think all years/models have this. :?:



Increasing compression to help power and then reducing timing which reduces power makes no sense to me. There is only about ~3% power gain max for each 1 point compression ratio increase, so going from 10:1 to 11:1 would be about 10-12hp gain on a 6.0 motor. If you have high-octane fuel available where you live, great; otherwise I'd rather have the 10:1 engine. I don't think AMG ever built an 11:1 ratio in 6L displacement, might be a reason for that...


:scratchchin:

All of this, if it clearly show the differances 119 97* to 119 98* would be very useful. I am very temted to get me one more 119 980/5 AMG E50 motor,
to tear apart for inspection. Cylinder head job, camshafts, pistons are different, by how much. Main reason would be the ability to build a
halfway to E60 ~350+ hp motor on a reasonable budget. About the 11:1 CR are we saying the EZL AKR is inferior to the ME counterpart meaning
slower to react and retard the ignition point?

The 420 motor has got 11:1 CR in later build so? But as a 6liter w all that torque will be used more in the low rev range, and therefore
be more exposed to and prone to pre ignition, I don't know. Roger
 
Yes, they used an early closed-deck block. But that has nothing to do with the compression ratio, which is determined by piston design and combustion chamber volume.
I know, it was just to answer on your argument previously, in which you said that i should notice that 11:1 compression changes at Brabus only affected .980 engines.
I hope i'm not mistaken here, but i believe the combustion chamber in the 11:1 heads is identical to the 10:1 heads. Whats raising the compression is the piston which now has a thick hump on top. If that is true, adding a early style .97x head with larger valves to a .980 engine should add some performance. And wasnt it according to the WIS, that you can in fact use closed-deck heads on open-deck blocks?

I only have one ME 1.0 engine and it does not have WOT enrichment. I'm don't think all years/models have this. :?:
My information is from the German W140 club. They state that on their website and its more or less "commonly known" among the W140 owners.
They say it was "secretly reintroduced" with the Bosch ME 1.0 among the S420, S500, S600 engines, although rated power on papers stayed the same.

Increasing compression to help power and then reducing timing which reduces power makes no sense to me. There is only about ~3% power gain max for each 1 point compression ratio increase, so going from 10:1 to 11:1 would be about 10-12hp gain on a 6.0 motor. If you have high-octane fuel available where you live, great; otherwise I'd rather have the 10:1 engine. I don't think AMG ever built an 11:1 ratio in 6L displacement, might be a reason for that...
:scratchchin:
Well, that depends on the maps. Based on your logic it would not make sense to have the E420 have 11:1 compression, yet still they have it and they run with 91octane gas.
Question is, if a overall 3° timing reducing kills more HP/Torque than a 11:1 raise would add. Questions over questions...
By the way, don't forget that we have knock sensors, that should work quite well. At least the EZL-K's logic behind it sounds great on paper.
Anyway, 11:1 compression would be MY way for a 6L build, but i guess i will never do it. It maybe will be better to get a crashed W210 E60 and use that motor in the future...we will see.

All of this, if it clearly show the differances 119 97* to 119 98* would be very useful. I am very temted to get me one more 119 980/5 AMG E50 motor,
to tear apart for inspection. Cylinder head job, camshafts, pistons are different, by how much. Main reason would be the ability to build a
halfway to E60 ~350+ hp motor on a reasonable budget. About the 11:1 CR are we saying the EZL AKR is inferior to the ME counterpart meaning
slower to react and retard the ignition point?

The 420 motor has got 11:1 CR in later build so? But as a 6liter w all that torque will be used more in the low rev range, and therefore
be more exposed to and prone to pre ignition, I don't know. Roger
Hey Roger,
This is a interesting topic. If we believe Mr. Hagmanns email to me from some time ago, their camshaft design produces together with portmatched and polished heads/intake manifolds a peak power of 370HP dyno verified. He never said at which type of 5L M119 that power was achieved. But imagine this was at a later one...
Imagine if possible, you take a .980 block with its lighter pistons and smaller crank bearings and you add early style heads with their bigger valves, do portmatching/polishing of head ports/intake manifold and intake/combustion-chamber polishing and add Hagmann Profile cams. I bet you get to the rated AMGs 6L HP claim with that, but obviously without that much Torque of the 6L.
Still, a 50-60HP increase at the upper rev range would be great with the M119s i belive.

Personally i think the EZL and LH are inferior to the ME1.0. But i dont know if they react quicker to knock sensors or not. I never got deep into that matter.
Such a "optimized" 5L i would indeed build in the future as its cheap. A 6L is to expensive for me and i dont see the need for a classic car like the W124 500E is.

EDIT: This decision of course depends on the rewriting of the LH chip. So far i guess a remap will be expensive - and i only heard of one guy so far that does it in germany, told to me by Bernard.
 
I know, it was just to answer on your argument previously, in which you said that i should notice that 11:1 compression changes at Brabus only affected .980 engines.
I hope i'm not mistaken here, but i believe the combustion chamber in the 11:1 heads is identical to the 10:1 heads. Whats raising the compression is the piston which now has a thick hump on top. If that is true, adding a early style .97x head with larger valves to a .980 engine should add some performance. And wasnt it according to the WIS, that you can in fact use closed-deck heads on open-deck blocks?

I also believe you can plug and play a little as you feel, to make a usefull "hybrid" and not be in the need for a lot of machining work and cost.

My information is from the German W140 club. They state that on their website and its more or less "commonly known" among the W140 owners.
They say it was "secretly reintroduced" with the Bosch ME 1.0 among the S420, S500, S600 engines, although rated power on papers stayed the same.


Well, that depends on the maps. Based on your logic it would not make sense to have the E420 have 11:1 compression, yet still they have it and they run with 91octane gas.
Question is, if a overall 3° timing reducing kills more HP/Torque than a 11:1 raise would add. Questions over questions...
By the way, don't forget that we have knock sensors, that should work quite well. At least the EZL-K's logic behind it sounds great on paper.
Anyway, 11:1 compression would be MY way for a 6L build, but i guess i will never do it. It maybe will be better to get a crashed W210 E60 and use that motor in the future...we will see.

As I have now proven, almost ready w the convertion ME to LH the donorW210 E60 or R129 SL60 motor, no hesitating go get it, the M119 960 KE 6l is a No No

Hey Roger,
This is a interesting topic. If we believe Mr. Hagmanns email to me from some time ago, their camshaft design produces together with portmatched and polished heads/intake manifolds a peak power of 370HP dyno verified. He never said at which type of 5L M119 that power was achieved. But imagine this was at a later one...
Imagine if possible, you take a .980 block with its lighter pistons and smaller crank bearings and you add early style heads with their bigger valves, do portmatching/polishing of head ports/intake manifold and intake/combustion-chamber polishing and add Hagmann Profile cams. I bet you get to the rated AMGs 6L HP claim with that, but obviously without that much Torque of the 6L.
Still, a 50-60HP increase at the upper rev range would be great with the M119s i belive.

Personally i think the EZL and LH are inferior to the ME1.0. But i dont know if they react quicker to knock sensors or not. I never got deep into that matter.
Such a "optimized" 5L i would indeed build in the future as its cheap. A 6L is to expensive for me and i dont see the need for a classic car like the W124 500E is.

EDIT: This decision of course depends on the rewriting of the LH chip. So far i guess a remap will be expensive - and i only heard of one guy so far that does it in germany, told to me by Bernard.
1
I also believe you can plug and play a little as you feel, to make a usefull "hybrid" and not be in the need for a lot of machining work and cost.
2
As I have now proven, almost ready w the convertion ME to LH the donorW210 E60 or R129 SL60 motor, no hesitating go get it, the M119 960 KE is a No No
3
Bearing in mind, the E50 is~350hp, when first I did look inside the intake and ports it was obvious, there is a little more fine tuning to do and I do say
at least 10 to 20 more with only a good grinding/polishing and remapping, that I say is very good bang for the spent buck or two.

The 6liter will always be what you will opt or whish for but the cost and almost impossible to get the right parts must, lead us into the 5.6........
I really would look into that if I had the time to, I already have got the 117 5.6 crank, it may render new custom rods (shorter) to compensate
for the throw and the compression height of the pistons, stock pistons, stock headgaskets, why has this obvious shortcut to 6liter never been tested. Roger
 
Last edited:
I know, it was just to answer on your argument previously, in which you said that i should notice that 11:1 compression changes at Brabus only affected .980 engines.
I'm not arguing anything. I'm simply stating what Brabus put in their documentation. Their LH 6.0 engine was 10.0 and their ME 6.0 engine was 11.0 ratio, per their spec sheets.


I hope i'm not mistaken here, but i believe the combustion chamber in the 11:1 heads is identical to the 10:1 heads. Whats raising the compression is the piston which now has a thick hump on top. If that is true, adding a early style .97x head with larger valves to a .980 engine should add some performance. And wasnt it according to the WIS, that you can in fact use closed-deck heads on open-deck blocks?
I believe you can use the early heads on the late blocks. As to power gains, I'm less confident about that, at least for an otherwise stock 5.0 motor. On a 6.0 engine, or a 5.0 with larger cams & porting, that's a different story.


My information is from the German W140 club. They state that on their website and its more or less "commonly known" among the W140 owners.
They say it was "secretly reintroduced" with the Bosch ME 1.0 among the S420, S500, S600 engines, although rated power on papers stayed the same.
Interesting. Maybe we can get Jono to check a late W140 and see what he finds.


Well, that depends on the maps. Based on your logic it would not make sense to have the E420 have 11:1 compression, yet still they have it and they run with 91octane gas. Question is, if a overall 3° timing reducing kills more HP/Torque than a 11:1 raise would add. Questions over questions...
By the way, don't forget that we have knock sensors, that should work quite well. At least the EZL-K's logic behind it sounds great on paper. Anyway, 11:1 compression would be MY way for a 6L build, but i guess i will never do it. It maybe will be better to get a crashed W210 E60 and use that motor in the future...we will see.
Yes, knock sensors will "work quite well" to... reduce knock. And that, by definition, is reducing power.

The compression ratio bump to 11:1 was only used by Mercedes with LH on 4.2L engines. I believe all the 5.0L (even with ME) were still 10:1...? Same with all AMG-built 6.0 motors. I'm not positive, I'd have to double-check. Compression ratio is not a magic elixir to increase power, as I already explained, you're talking about 3-4% on a 6L engine (co-incidentally, that is almost the exact amount of power gain between the Brabus 6.0L engines with 10:1 ratio (LH), vs 11:1 ratio (ME)... 408ps, vs 425ps, 4% gain).


Personally i think the EZL and LH are inferior to the ME1.0. But i dont know if they react quicker to knock sensors or not. I never got deep into that matter.
Such a "optimized" 5L i would indeed build in the future as its cheap. A 6L is to expensive for me and i dont see the need for a classic car like the W124 500E is.
Yes, LH+EZL is inferior to ME, the ME has much more processing power. I suspect that ME is able to react faster but I haven't seen documents stating this.


EDIT: This decision of course depends on the rewriting of the LH chip. So far i guess a remap will be expensive - and i only heard of one guy so far that does it in germany, told to me by Bernard.
Maybe ask Bernard what is possible from re-mapping LH and if it's worth looking into?
 
Lot of good discussion here.
Headers to M119 are extremely difficult since there is so limited space, at least in R129. Steering system in drivers side is taking space, and there is not too much space between body and engine.
Intake manifold is also somewhat space limited, but something can be done.
Gerry is right, it is almost impossible to find andy proper M119 performance build, at least that has been published.
In my opinion first thing is to upgrade engine management to this century to fully programmable engine management system, it is waste of time and money to do any mechanical changes with LH or other
ancient system.

In my opinion with proper supporting mods it should be possible to make 460..500hp from 5.6l NA M119. I have plans to do it and I will document it since this seems to be global challenge.:p
 
My opinion: The only way you'll get 460-500hp from a 5.6L M119 is to rev it to the moon, like 7000rpm+.

Aftermarket engine management is NOT a magic bullet to extract huge power. It makes it much easier to deal with forced-induction builds, but on NA engines, don't be surprised if the gains are waaaaay less than you expect. Unless you increase the rev limit, install a shorty intake manifold, and give up ALL of the low-end torque. That's a fun race engine, but lousy on the street.

:mushroom:
 
Engine redline to 7500rpm Should not be problem with fully balanced internals with light pistons and rods. Harmonic balancer/damper is question mark, how well oem can handle higher revs, probably custom one needed (ATI for example). Low end is not a big problem, increasing static compression ratio help quite a much, knocking and heating is not a problem since there is cheat code for that: E85. M156 is making 520hp@6.2l, so the power target should be reasonable. For intake system BMW has done quite nice work with their V8, probably something can be copied. Exhaust headers in BMWs are nothing special.

But for performance vice upgrading exhaust headers is like the last work, everything else should be done first.

About the late M119 engines, open deck design is a catastrophic failure. Should not be used for any high performance engine, they will fail sooner or later.
 
Off the shelf m119 headers

Hi all,

Just spotted these on ebay-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291897278563

$_57.JPG

It appears these are suitable for an m119 - although it does not list a W124 500E it does list the R129 series and W140 S500 as fitment options. Maybe it didnt list the 500E because it's so low production figures?

Anyway - they look very good - I have the Cat back stainless system but no high flow cats yet. These are food for thought!

It also 'seems' like the mention of 30ps refers to 30HP gain - maybe I have picked that up totally wrong.

If anyone has thoughts on these or m119 header's in general feel free to post them here. It would be nice to swap out those cast iron items but I'm not sure if it's really worth the effort or indeed if these will fit the 500E since the engine bay is likely the tightest fitment of any m119 Mercedes.
 
Re: Off the shelf m119 headers

Hi! These headers have been discussed here before. The shown headers don't fit the 119 but 113 engines. Also ircc the seller was asked to provide actual photos of the header since these obviously don't fit but he got somehow rude. The shown headers don't fit at all, no proof made from the seller that the actual ones are any different. The quest for drop in headers continues...
 
Last edited:
Merged threads.

I forget if it's been mentioned previously, but M119 headers for the W124 would require removing the engine to install the headers, and then installing the engine+headers back into the chassis... and then fabricating a custom exhaust. Which is partly why RENNtech charged ~$12,600 for this in the late 1990's.

:spend:
 
Merged threads.

I forget if it's been mentioned previously, but M119 headers for the W124 would require removing the engine to install the headers, and then installing the engine+headers back into the chassis... and then fabricating a custom exhaust. Which is partly why RENNtech charged ~$12,600 for this in the late 1990's.

:spend:

Gee, I wonder how much of that $12K my RennTech back box was worth?
 
Re: Off the shelf m119 headers

Hi all,

Just spotted these on ebay-

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/291897278563

View attachment 55155

It appears these are suitable for an m119 - although it does not list a W124 500E it does list the R129 series and W140 S500 as fitment options. Maybe it didnt list the 500E because it's so low production figures?

Anyway - they look very good - I have the Cat back stainless system but no high flow cats yet. These are food for thought!

It also 'seems' like the mention of 30ps refers to 30HP gain - maybe I have picked that up totally wrong.

If anyone has thoughts on these or m119 header's in general feel free to post them here. It would be nice to swap out those cast iron items but I'm not sure if it's really worth the effort or indeed if these will fit the 500E since the engine bay is likely the tightest fitment of any m119 Mercedes.

Don't they need 8 exhaust tubes per side?
 
181.jpg


http://www.stangtv.com/news/jon-kaase-explains-header-design-on-engine-masters-winner/

I've seen this engine in person, at Performance Race Industry, the year he won. The pictures don't do it justice. The article reveals, he tried a ton of different revisions, and ended up with this insane looking header design. Obviously, it's a dyno cell so the packaging was very ... liberal. The point of this article, is that he tuned it for a 4,000 rpm power band, and this was his end result. On a 409" engine, he made 722hp and 666lb/ft with a pump gas compression of 11.5:1!!!


BACK TO TOPIC:
One of the big reasons, in my opinion, for the lack of power being produced after headers are cut, welded, and bolted onto the car, is the considerations (or lack thereof) to the rest of the system. The headers are a scavenging device, and there are quite a few variables that go into the design of power boost.

Job #1 is to evacuate the cylinder of all spent air/fuel. The headers can be tuned at length (literally and figuratively), by the use of pulse waves. The sound energy is modified by heat, diameter of piping, locations of "change" which reflect the waves back into the other direction (collector locations, h-pipe and x-pipe locations), and finally length of pipe.

If Job#1 is efficient, there are multiple benefits.

Parasitic loss is reduced. The piston does not have to force as much of the exhaust out of the cylinder, as it's doing it on its own.
Reversion is reduced. The sound waves are timed outside of the parameters of the intake valve being opened, and have minimal opportunity for the intake charge (ambient pressure) to be overpowered by the exhaust charge (100's of PSIa).
Intake Charge has less fill resistance. This is due to less exhaust in the cylinder when the intake valves open. This is the area that sets up the biggest benefit. The charge will have and maintain a higher velocity as it enters the cylinder, and will be able to fit more of the air/fuel mixture in the cylinder. Obviously, the power produced, has a direct relation to the cylinder pressure, which has a direct relation to the air fuel quantity.

The headers alone, wont maximize these benefits. Because they're going to end up being long tube, equal length, you need a mid pipe, a cross over point, and a final exhaust pipe section. They all play together, in tuning the exhaust pulses. But even the best headers in the world dont mean a damn thing, if the ecu isn't re-tuned. The factory air/fuel, is tuned AFTER the stock system was developed, and is generally, the maximized version of the shitty stock components, design limited by the company treasury department.

The fuel is timed for the stock sytem's achieved velocities, and the spark is timed for the pulses observed within the restricted system. So it is very easy to say the headers are at fault, or a waste, without understanding the system in it's entirety. It is this very reason, why people think "back pressure" is necessary to horsepower, when instead, the ecu is trying to create events in the wrong place at the wrong time. The ECU is, in other words, expecting the pulse to have to travel through the shitty terrain of a manifold log, through 2 cats, a resonator, a muffler, a couple 55 gallon drums, another muffler, a u turn, a couple more 55 gallon drums, and a resonator, for good measure, before the "factory planned" event takes place.

Long story short: Make long tube headers, and use consideration of cam timing, intake charge, rpm, cubic inches, exhaust temperature, length of tubing per section (primary runners, collectors, pipes, mufflers, etc). Once the design is there, have it tuned to take advantage of it's newly efficient scavenging system.

-Doomsday

P.S. There's no aftermarket support, because there's not a large enough market for it. Most Mercedes owners are businessmen flashing their bravado, while on cell phones working their next deal. No time for banging gears around a mountain road. Money is to be made. And lunch is to be eaten. Off their sexy receptionist's fake tits.
 
$1,790 for the RennTech Muffler, per my records; which leaves about $10,200 for the headers. OK.

Cheers,

maw

OUCH!! to the $1,790.00

That makes me really happy. I guess I got a deal on e-Bay. If I remember it cost me $350.00

Take Care
 
Yeeeeaaaahhhh, but for RennTech, you have to remember everything costs about 4x what it should. $1,790 was ambitious, to be sure. Judging from what they charged my prior owner for what was basically some Heim joints (marketed as a "rear sub frame mod")...

maw
 

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