Hydraulic Lifter confusion

[Christian_K]

Hello, im about to order new hydraulic lifters but im very confused.
I know from the WIS that there were at least two version of the lifters. One with significant reduced weight.

Early ones weighting 82gramms and the later ones 64gramms. All measurements are identical on both with diameter of 34.965mm-34.975mm (manufacturers say 35mm) and height of 25.5mm-26.5mm (Federal Mogul says 26mm for theirs). See pic:



So WIS now says in document "ra05001192110x" (2110 - Check and replace hydraulic lifters) that the older ones with 82gramms are only supposed to be used with the early style double-valve springs, it is NOT saying that the newer ones could not be used with with the older double valve springs.
Now in Document Number in WIS "ra0500119ta00x" (05 - Technical Changes) it is saying that with month 04 in 1995, weight reduced hydraulic lifters were phased in and they can only be used with the later style single, "conical-shaped" valve springs.

So my questions are now:
- Are those ones "phased in" in 04.1995, the ones with 64gramms? Didnt the conical valve springs appeared earlier? Part-Nr?
- What is the fitting Part-Nr for my car with early style double valve springs? The EPC shows for my car the latest Nr: "A1040501225". Is this latest one some sort of "universal/unified lifter" as this fits in not only M111, M104, M120, M119 engines but also some Diesels OMXYZ and so forth.
- The latest Part-Nrs (A1040501225, A1040501025, A1110500025) shows at INA or Federal Mogul (AE), etc that those have 35mm outside diameter and now a height of only 24mm instead of 26mm!
Old ones (i measured them from my engines .974 00 4324 and my early .970 engine) around 26mm, the listed ones by EPC ones showing only 24mm and have the remark that "only used starting at engine Number .974 005782" while my engine is a .974 00 4324. Im very confused!

I phoned a lot with AE (Federal Mogul, Beru Germany) and they have two ones listed for our engines and the M111, M104, M120 engines. One is called AE FOL124 and one AE FOL147.
They are both supposed to be identical in weight, but the AE FOL124 are 26mm in height while the AE FOL147 are 24mm in height.

So what lifter to get?
The part Nrs. "A1040501225, A1040501025, A1110500025" translate into "INA 420 0042 10" with only 24mm in height but they should fit into my car according to both INA and the original Nr in the EPC.

Im very very confused. Please tell me which ones to buy, and if both the 24mm and 26mm ones "sit" the same on the valve-stem/valve-spring cup

 

[gsxr]

The lighter lifters can be used with either valve springs.

The heavy lifters can only be used with the older double springs. My assumption is, the new single springs are not strong enough to push the heavier lifter, which makes sense.

EDIT: I don't know about the height difference, i.e. if the 24mm lifters can be used in place of 26mm.

 

[Christian_K]

The lighter lifters can be used with either valve springs.

The heavy lifters can only be used with the older double springs. My assumption is, the new single springs are not strong enough to push the heavier lifter, which makes sense.

Thanks, and the issue with the 24mm vs 26mm height? I think it might be just the outside case reaching further down the lifters-bore in the heads, as the valves lengths were not changed in our cars.

 

[gsxr]

Not sure I see the problem here. FSM specs say 26mm is ok, and shorter would not cause a problem. Right? You might be over-thinking things...

 

[Christian_K]

Not sure I see the problem here. FSM specs say 26mm is ok, and shorter would not cause a problem. Right? You might be over-thinking things...

FSM says 26mm is Ok. EPC listed Part-Nrs show only 24mm ones nowadys...

 

[samiam44]

24mm would be plenty of a guiding action.

They have consolidated and updated designs through the year. FYI I think the Porsche and VW 4V INA lifters are the same. I looked at the VW as they were significantly cheaper than MB or Porsche. You can choose brazil or european made lifters from INA and there is a price difference.




Michael

 

[Christian_K]

24mm would be plenty of a guiding action.

They have consolidated and updated designs through the year. FYI I think the Porsche and VW 4V INA lifters are the same. I looked at the VW as they were significantly cheaper than MB or Porsche. You can choose brazil or european made lifters from INA and there is a price difference.




Michael

Hi,
the "INA 420 0042 10" (24mm height) are the ones for the M119, M120, M104, M111 Mercedes engines and have the MB-Part Nr: "A1040501225" (listed as latest for all M119 engines according to EPC). They also have the VW Part Nr: "00A109309" and fit Volkswagen LT commercial vehicles with the 2.3Liter engines.

There is also "INA 420 0022 10" with 35mm diameter and 26mm height. These are for many VW/Audi/Skoda Type cars. They might look correct from the outside shape but even INA issued a warning that using the wrong lifter can even cause engine damage.
See attachment View attachment warnung_ina.pdf ;-)


Look i find the Install Info about the "INA 420 0042 10":

View attachment ventilstoessel-ina-420004210-2.pdf

Moderator edit: The document below references 420 0043 10 for VAG applications (link), not 420 0042 10 for Mercedes M119/M104.




Google translation:

"Light" tappet (56 g)​

"Heavy" tappet (70 g)​

​

The two bucket tappets, the externally look the same, only allowed in the for that assigned vehicle types installed will! They are by no means interchangeable!​

​

Attention, important A notice!​

​

Same geometric dimension though not interchangeable because:​

• different lowering times of the hydraulic Elements (HTE)​

• Metering of the amount of oil​

• other specifications of the oil​

• different surface finish of the bottom of the cup (e.g. case-hardened, nitrated, phosphated etc.)​

• Type of plunger (labyrinthine, non-leakage or bucket tappets with internal deflection)​

• different spring forces of the check valve​

• different valve lifts of the hydraulic Elements (HTE) (travel in mm)​

​

Possible consequences of non-observance:​

• increased mass forces​

• Noise in the valve train​

• higher friction and material wear​

• Material overload​

• higher emissions and fuel consumption​

• Engine damage!​

 

[Rouven036]

I can confirm that the lighter lifters fit and work well in early style aka double valve spring heads. Have all 32 of them in my car since 2006 or so... The difference in height only gives you more freedom for higher lift cams in case the double valve springs don't go on block before that. As I remember you have been behind that upgrade too...

 

[BigWillieStyle]

FEBI 08674

 

[Eno]

I have a total of 32 valve lifters for my ‘92 Midnight Blue M119.974.

16 valve lifters made by INA were purchased separately 3 years ago not at an official dealer.

16 valve lifters were purched at MB official dealer with the chassis number of this car.

They all show the same part number.
Does anyone know if there is a difference?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[gsxr]

I have a total of 32 valve lifters for my ‘92 Midnight Blue M119.974.

16 valve lifters made by INA were purchased separately 3 years ago not at an official dealer.

16 valve lifters were purched at MB official dealer with the chassis number of this car.

They all show the same part number.
Does anyone know if there is a difference?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

If they are all the same part number, they should be fine. However, the 1992 (USA model year) engines used heavier lifters and double valve springs; 93-up had lighter lifters and single springs. You can use the late/light lifters on early engines, but you can't use early/heavy lifters on late engines.

The FSM shows an 18-gram difference in weight (64 vs 82g) so you could measure them if you're concerned about the INA parts being slightly different... I'm guessing they should be fine. The part numbers in your photos (104-050-12-25) is for the late lifters so you should be fine either way.

 

[timpurister]

Old topic, but really good read. I changed my tappets since the old ones looked really worn. Old ones were INA 26,1 in height, new ones are INA 24,1. My car is -94 engine number way over 9000. Cams were only polished, no grinding. I can hear ticking from the tappets, nothing bad, mainly annoying. Moving from Redline 5w-40 to Liqui Moly 10w-40 did not help. There is no noise once engine is cold, but once it warms, the ticking starts. Oilpump is new.

Any advice, should I just live with the current or change to 26,1 ( which seems to kind of risk). Or try 15w-50 ?

 

[gsxr]

Tim, what part number did you buy? Spec is 25.5-26.5mm height per job 05-2110 in the FSM. The later version is weight-optimised but has identical dimensions. Reading the first post in this thread it sounds like the aftermarket INA are 2mm shorter, but are the OE MB lifters also 2mm shorter?

Per the diagram below, if the only difference is the skirt height, I can't see how that would cause a problem. @ChristianK , did you use the INA 24mm lifters in your car?

 

[timpurister]

I bought INA 420004210 24,1 mm and the old ones just have the text INA F4653211. I assume that these are OEMs and they are 26,1

 

[rayhennig]

Interesting read.

My son may need new lifters for his 190D 2.5 so only 10 of them. But what to buy. From MB? From INA? Kolbenschmidt?

So, is there an advantage in buying genuine MB parts? I did for my M104 and at £35 each it was slightly painful.

Comments, anyone?

Best to all.

RayH

 

[JC220]

Interesting read.

My son may need new lifters for his 190D 2.5 so only 10 of them. But what to buy. From MB? Form INA? Kolbenschmidt?

So, is there an advantage in buying genuine MB parts? I did for my M104 and at £35 each it was slightly painful.

Comments, anyone?

Best to all.

RayH

Use AutoDoc Ray. They are in Germany. Make sure and download the phone app first. If you use this code you will get a discount and I will get a small voucher too. Enter car details but do also cross check the exact part number on MB software and search with it. You will have lots of options and availability there

1. Follow the link ‎AUTODOC — Quality Car Parts to install the AUTODOC app
2. Enter your coupon code AC25501200 at checkout
3. Get your £3 discount

 

[rayhennig]

Use AutoDoc Ray. They are in Germany.

Thanks JC. Yes, I'm a regular with Auto-Doc for aftermarket parts. No problems so far aside from getting Febi flex discs against an order for Lemfoerder. No problem though as the Febis turned out to be made by SGF so all's well.

My question though is, "... which aftermarket brand?" I ask as the 2.5's lifters are now 45€ each at Teile Profis where I get my MB stuff.

Other brands from 10 to 20-ish Euro.

RayH

 

[JC220]

Thanks JC. Yes, I'm a regular with Auto-Doc for aftermarket parts. No problems so far aside from getting Febi flex discs against an order for Lemfoerder. No problem though as the Febis turned out to be made by SGF so all's well.

My question though is, "... which aftermarket brand?" I ask as the 2.5's lifters are now 45€ each at Teile Profis where I get my MB stuff.

Other brands from 10 to 20-ish Euro.

RayH

INA would be a good brand of lifter, can you state the brand options you have available for your particular lifters Ray?

 

[rayhennig]

INA would be a good brand of lifter, can you state the brand options you have available for your particular lifters Ray?

Yes, I was thinking about INA. Thanks.

RayH

 

[Modellbobby]

Hi, some hijacking here from RayHennig.

Can we come back to the real topic?

I also have a M119.960 and ordered the INA Lifter and see that this is shorter than the original. On my INA Original lifter there is : F 4654524

I really dislike to put in another dimension lifter in that car.

 

[Modellbobby]

Hi,
the "INA 420 0042 10" (24mm height) are the ones for the M119, M120, M104, M111 Mercedes engines and have the MB-Part Nr: "A1040501225" (listed as latest for all M119 engines according to EPC). They also have the VW Part Nr: "00A109309" and fit Volkswagen LT commercial vehicles with the 2.3Liter engines.

There is also "INA 420 0022 10" with 35mm diameter and 26mm height. These are for many VW/Audi/Skoda Type cars. They might look correct from the outside shape but even INA issued a warning that using the wrong lifter can even cause engine damage.
See attachment View attachment 37836 ;-)


Look i find the Install Info about the "INA 420 0042 10":

View attachment 37837

Moderator edit: The document below references 420 0043 10 for VAG applications (link), not 420 0042 10 for Mercedes M119/M104.

View attachment 153317


Google translation:

"Light" tappet (56 g)​

"Heavy" tappet (70 g)​

​

The two bucket tappets, the externally look the same, only allowed in the for that assigned vehicle types installed will! They are by no means interchangeable!​

​

Attention, important A notice!​

​

Same geometric dimension though not interchangeable because:​

• different lowering times of the hydraulic Elements (HTE)​

• Metering of the amount of oil​

• other specifications of the oil​

• different surface finish of the bottom of the cup (e.g. case-hardened, nitrated, phosphated etc.)​

• Type of plunger (labyrinthine, non-leakage or bucket tappets with internal deflection)​

• different spring forces of the check valve​

• different valve lifts of the hydraulic Elements (HTE) (travel in mm)​

​

Possible consequences of non-observance:​

• increased mass forces​

• Noise in the valve train​

• higher friction and material wear​

• Material overload​

• higher emissions and fuel consumption​

• Engine damage!​

Thats false here.

You are comparing a very wrong item .

The question is:

A1040501025 OR
A1190500325

There is difference between them in height.

 

[rayhennig]

Hi, some hijacking here from RayHennig.

I'm no expert so best not to quote me. I got MB lifters in 2017 for my 300-24. All well now. But I did pay £35 each for 24 of them so that was a bit harsh.

My son may need these for a 190D 2.5 (10 of them) and/or an E280 124 (24 of them). So, we are more than interested in alternatives to MB's aggressive pricing.

Having said that, the 190 is ticking much less after a few years of his 5W30, 100% synthetic 10000 Km oil change regime. No ticking from the 280 or my 300, mercifully!

Best to all.

RayH

 

[Modellbobby]

Anybody can shine light

Middle original from 1991 m119.960

Left the 26mm and right the 24mm

I think the seller did not send me original INA - as there is no number on the left one

 

[Modellbobby]

The lighter lifters can be used with either valve springs.

The heavy lifters can only be used with the older double springs. My assumption is, the new single springs are not strong enough to push the heavier lifter, which makes sense.

EDIT: I don't know about the height difference, i.e. if the 24mm lifters can be used in place of 26mm.

I honestly dislike your writing here. You write yeah the should be fine etc. you write about the lighter ones and not specifying which one you mean. This kind of posts are dangerous and it is not about should or could when you redo an engine. It is fits or not.

 

[gsxr]

I honestly dislike your writing here. You write yeah the should be fine etc. you write about the lighter ones and not specifying which one you mean. This kind of posts are dangerous and it is not about should or could when you redo an engine. It is fits or not.

Factory documents state that the later style, lighter-weight (64g) lifters can be substituted in place of the older, heavier (82g) lifters on early engines with double valve springs.

You cannot use the early style, heavier (82g) lifters on late engines with single valve springs.

You HAVE read the factory service manual, right? See job 05-2110.

https://www.500eboard.co/forums/misc/Manuals/Servicev3.2/W124/w124CD1/Program/Engine/119/05-2110.pdf

 

[Modellbobby]

That’s what I did now after not finding the exact one

 

[R129 UK]

I honestly dislike your writing here. You write yeah the should be fine etc. you write about the lighter ones and not specifying which one you mean. This kind of posts are dangerous and it is not about should or could when you redo an engine. It is fits or not.

Wow...this is the first time I've seen the dislike reaction used and I think it is justified.

 

[Modellbobby]

Factory documents state that the later style, lighter-weight (64g) lifters can be substituted in place of the older, heavier (82g) lifters on early engines with double valve springs.

You cannot use the early style, heavier (82g) lifters on late engines with single valve springs.

You HAVE read the factory service manual, right? See job 05-2110.

https://www.500eboard.co/forums/misc/Manuals/Servicev3.2/W124/w124CD1/Program/Engine/119/05-2110.pdf

View attachment 215329

This doesn’t explain which lifters aftermarket to use at all. And it doesn’t say to use the lifters B version for early engines.

 

[JC220]

This doesn’t explain which lifters aftermarket to use at all. And it doesn’t say to use the lifters B version for early engines.

If unsure return the aftermarket lifter(s) you have and buy genuine parts based on VIN.

 

[Modellbobby]

If unsure return the aftermarket lifter(s) you have and buy genuine parts based on VIN.

Dude. They don’t exist anymore. !

 

[JC220]

Dude. They don’t exist anymore. !

So you have a newer 24mm lifter. Already covered several times on this detailed thread that its compatible.

What's the problem again? Why don't you fill us in a little.

Why are you changing a lifter? How many lifters are you changing? Miles on the car? What valve springs do you have, double? Are you a premium member of bens whirled by any chance?

 

[Modellbobby]

Where is it written that different weight and different height lifters who also have a much smaller size plate as you see in my picture is compatible? Everybody here states something which is not confirmed at all. That’s my point. Help me to find the exact page at Mercedes where this is written. I meanwhile repaired my lifter as I for sure will not install a totally different lifter than the original as you see in my picture.

 

[gsxr]

Wow...this is the first time I've seen the dislike reaction used and I think it is justified.

I'm assuming something was lost in the translation from a non-English speaker located in Europe.

Where is it written that different weight and different height lifters who also have a much smaller size plate as you see in my picture is compatible? Everybody here states something which is not confirmed at all. That’s my point. Help me to find the exact page at Mercedes where this is written. I meanwhile repaired my lifter as I for sure will not install a totally different lifter than the original as you see in my picture.

Flipping this around... why are you convinced that a newer, improved lifter is not backwards compatible with your 119.960 engine? Just because it looks different, doesn't mean it isn't correct. As described in earlier posts, a lifter which is 2mm shorter should have zero detrimental effects on operation.

However, buying an INA lifter that has no INA markings anywhere on it, would make me suspicious that what you received was a no-name aftermarket item, not INA.

 

[Modellbobby]

It is amazing how you tackle these topics. A newer lifter is there for newer engines. If you know a bit about m119 then you know that there are very drastic changes from m119.960 and then newer ones. Exactly the valves changed. And if you would have noticed that including the lifter height also the size of the actual lifter diameter changed then you would at least worry. And if you can show me that Mercedes describes to use the new lifter version with older engines as well then you convince me. If not , you just talk like a desktop mechanic

 

[Modellbobby]

Factory documents state that the later style, lighter-weight (64g) lifters can be substituted in place of the older, heavier (82g) lifters on early engines with double valve springs.

No it doesn’t. Where is this written !

You cannot use the early style, heavier (82g) lifters on late engines with single valve springs.

You HAVE read the factory service manual, right? See job 05-2110.

https://www.500eboard.co/forums/misc/Manuals/Servicev3.2/W124/w124CD1/Program/Engine/119/05-2110.pdf

View attachment 215329

 

[daantjie]

Ugh...

 

[R129 UK]

My M119.982 uses 24mm high lifters (dimension b in the attached document) this weighs 50g without oil as it is collapsed and my kitchen scales have a 5g resolution.

Therefore, there appear to be at least 3 types of lifter for M119 engines.

The "older" 2 types are identical dimensionally except for the weight - although looking at the drawings it isn't obvious where the ~20% additional weight comes from between the 1st version and the 2nd version:

 

[Modellbobby]

My M119.982 uses 24mm high lifters (dimension b in the attached document) this weighs 50g without oil as it is collapsed and my kitchen scales have a 5g resolution.

Therefore, there appear to be at least 3 types of lifter for M119 engines.

The "older" 2 types are identical dimensionally except for the weight - although looking at the drawings it isn't obvious where the ~20% additional weight comes from between the 1st version and the 2nd version:

View attachment 215346

Bucket B is also 25.5-26.5. so it is not your lifter with 24mm

 

[Modellbobby]

No it doesn’t. Where is this written !

Again guys. To all expert here. Where is it written in Mercedes documentation? Convince me please

 

[R129 UK]

Bucket B is also 25.5-26.5. so it is not your lifter with 24mm

Correct, that is exactly what I wrote, are you blind or stupid (or both)?

 

[R129 UK]

Ugh...

I agree with your post before your edit...

 

[TimL]

Coming here as a new member and accusing extremely experienced people like gsxr of being a desktop mechanic is not only rude, it is beyond the pale. Go take your attitude and lifter question to some other forum

 

[gsxr]

It is amazing how you tackle these topics. A newer lifter is there for newer engines. If you know a bit about m119 then you know that there are very drastic changes from m119.960 and then newer ones. Exactly the valves changed. And if you would have noticed that including the lifter height also the size of the actual lifter diameter changed then you would at least worry. And if you can show me that Mercedes describes to use the new lifter version with older engines as well then you convince me. If not , you just talk like a desktop mechanic

The old, original part number for the 119.960 lifters has been superceded to the newer, later version lifters. The same part numbers are used on both the .960 and .97x engines. The .98x engines never used the old lifter design and only show the latest part numbers.

The EPC screenshots below probably will not be satisfactory evidence, but I suspect what you are asking for does not exist. I have never seen Mercedes engineering documentation / technical service bulletins explicitly stating that the newer, lighter lifters are suitable for use in older engines. But that is exactly what the EPC supercession shows. And, the FSM document linked earlier states that the early lifters are NOT suitable for use on late engines with single valve springs - which is logical, and makes sense.

The engine serial break points (Up To / As Of) coincides with the change from heavier lifters to lighter lifters, as documented here. This change occurred in mid-1992 production (as of 1993 USA model year engines).

I get the impression you believe your .960 engine must use the original, taller, heavier lifters. If you refuse to trust the EPC supercessions, I encourage you to search for a set of 32 NOS (New Old Stock) of A1190500325.