Hoping to keep the costs down by just addressing the reverse delay. Seems to be shifting fine otherwise. But I appreciate the SV recommendation.
Will do!Well that is depressing! Especially not long after purchase, and with a fairly rapid decline of the delay (can take years to go from 1 second to 2-3).
Reverse delay is usually worn reverse clutches, and/or the reverse piston boot/seal (I think). Problem is, you have to pull the trans out of the car to work on any of this stuff. Labor is the primary cost, gotta be minimum 10-12 hours labor in the R&R alone, not counting whatever time is spent on the transmission itself. And at that point, a rebuild is worth considering, although probably not needed if miles are low.
If the trans comes out, and reverse issue is addressed, make sure it also receives a COMPLETE re-seal... parts and labor are minimal for the re-seal.
Keep us posted on how it turns out!
Oh did he? Well maybe I need a new recommendation.
Thanks for the tips, Gerry! Perhaps I’ll follow your lead and wait a while—I didn’t know the 2second reverse could be okay to sit on for a bit. And, makes sense re: doing a transmission repair as one whole rebuild.
Everything is 100% in this thread, stem to stern.
Thanks for that additional perspective—sounds like I’ve got some decision-making ahead. And some more homework to do.
I’ll take a look at that how-to this weekend. 🌧
I think it is absolutely crazy to spend the time and effort to remove and replace a transmission, only and just to repair the reverse clutches.
I second that entirely! The thread in the link is very nice and useful.
Yes except that I have taken several transmissions apart for refurbushment in my car's and found that the clutches are in new condition! Some with writing still on them!! You measure the clearances in each clutch pack and compare with factory specs. I have yet to see one of my transmission out of spec yet on any clutch pack.
+1! Having someone else do the job you don't really know exactly what went into your transmission.I second that entirely! The thread in the link is very nice and useful.
I agree with @gerryvz too, but I would like to stress that doing a transmission is not hard. I did one in 6 weeks w/o rushing. The work on the transmission is very pleasant, getting it off the car and putting it back on it is what I don't like. Using only MB parts the cost was ~ $1000 . Is very important to have the right procedure (which I do have). However, I scrapped the car before using the transmission, so I never get to enjoy the transmission. I know I did couple of mistakes and will have to open it up again, but overall is not hard although is not a job for the average guy too. I look forward to when I have to do my next one, I may end up doing a how-to too.
In this particular case I would say keep an eye on it. If it gets worse then you'll have to bite the bullet. Depending on mileage, how the rest of the transmission works, how mechanically inclined you are, how much work and money you want to put into it plus other personal factors, you will decide what path is best for you to take, but you do have several options to consider from.
Check it with a stopwatch. It may feel like longer than it really is. 3-4 seconds feels like eternity. When it's that bad, you are on borrowed time. When you can hear a light "whirring" noise during this 3-4 seconds, it's overdue. Need to have radio off and door/window open to hear this. I think the noise is from the reverse piston touching things it shouldn't. But anyway, if the delay is less than 2 seconds, or closer to 1 second, I'd leave it alone. There's no way the trans should need a full rebuild at 102k, assuming it's original to the car (check the serial number vs the datacard), if it had proper fluid & filter changes.And yeah, it’s a bummer. Perhaps I’m mentally exaggerating the 2-3 seconds, and it’s actually 1. Doesn’t feel like I am, though.
I’d hate to have to have the whole thing rebuilt—only 102k miles on the odometer.
if you can remember what the manual was missing, please let us know!
Not mentioned here, but if you do the reverse clutches only, remove 4-5 of the 20 reverse piston springs. This is a common modification by the trans rebuilders to help the reverse clutches last longer, and (IIRC) may also reduce the delay for reverse engagement as the pressure required to compress the spring pack is reduced.
I checked the exploded view and my pictures. Is the K2 drum (item 550 in the attached exploded view)! What happens is that Mercedes sells it as one part already assembled, but inside there is a rubber o-ring. During a transmission reseal that o-ring should be changed. The FRM that @JC220 posted (which is also what I followed) does not show that because the part is riveted so is assumed you can't open it. This video shows what this is about:
I think it looses pressure and the piston has a hard time pushing into the clutches, that resulting in slipping.Thanks, liviu165! Any idea what problems result if that O-ring is old/worn/hardened?
Also, do you know roughly what year MB changed to the late-style drum he shows near the end, held together with a snap ring instead of rivets?
I'm curious if this only applies to 80's-vintage transmissions.
). I will not get into what I think of this "shop" but they are well known half - wits charging exorbitant rates for sub - par work. I cannot tell from the hand - scribbled job sheet exactly what was done, but I do not see evidence of a refurb from a reputable shop like Sun Valley, which leads me to believe they "tried" to do the rebuild themselves. Since my ownership I have had to drop the valve body, and also tinker a lot with the linkages and modulator, in additon to fixing multiple other half - assed attempts that this shop tried to do, and rob the previous owner blind in the process. So I am kind of on the fence on this thread to be honest. If I had tons of time on my hands, and a clean and large enough work bench and all required tools, then I might be inclined to do this job myself, but I have to concur with Gerry here in that there is no way I would not go the whole hog if ever I had to fix this trans. The re/re on the 6.9 is not for the faint of heart, and most folks pull the motor and trans as a unit to do this, so to not refurb the whole box would be more than false economy here.
Basically what I was trying to say. It's not a job that most people WANT to do, for a variety of reasons. Not a job that is physically or mentally impossible to do for competent DIYers.
@Rain, Glen is correct. Ted Reich retired a couple of years back. He was great on 124 trans he did my last fluid and filter change on my 500E. He also rebuilt my 500SL and did a reverse clutch in my old 300E.
Yeah, total hats off to you guys who have the fortitude to push themselves to do such repair jobs -- no doubt you would not be in the position you are today to tackle R&R of a transmission had you not pushed yourself to tackle incrementally more and more involved repair jobs in years past!
I think your post speaks for far more people on this forum than you know, with regard to wrenching in general, and R&Ring a transmission in particular, @Jlaa.Yeah, total hats off to you guys who have the fortitude to push themselves to do such repair jobs -- no doubt you would not be in the position you are today to tackle R&R of a transmission had you not pushed yourself to tackle incrementally more and more involved repair jobs in years past!
Personally, in my middle age, I'm too chicken to get underneath the car at home --- especially without a lift. I would say that I tolerate wrenching and enjoy the self-satisfaction it gives. But, I do not look forward to doing it --- I do not love it. As @LWB250 intimates, I'd rather spend some and transfer that risk of trans R&R to someone who has lots of practice under their belt.
Ohhhh. How long did it take for Sun Valley to do the work? When my transmission goes, maybe instead of having a local place R&R with a new one shipped from Sun Valley, I should just drive to Sun Valley and have them take the car ---- assuming it doesn't take much more than two days?
If I remember correctly, I could pick my car up after just 3-4 days. Unfortunately, it was not a successful rebuild, and transmission innards were pulverized after 7k mi - someone has to draw that one unlucky card from the deck. Hence another rebuild when I was already in Virginia. What I'm not sure to this day is whether my valve body was refurbished too or not, (and whether it was the cause for the failure, as it was revealed to be in very bad shape during autopsy) and if it's refurbishment reflected in the $2,500 price. That's is something you'll want to clarify upfront. My receipt said "full rebuild" without any other details and I did not ask.
Oh so you paid $2500 for Sun Valley to do a complete rebuild, and then had to pay another $4000 to have it rebuilt again 3 years later?
Yes, but statistically it's bound to happen to someone. Despite being out of warranty (24 months) owner offered to ship a replacement unit for free, but I still had to pay a local shop remove& install labor (IIRC, $1400-1700). I decided to go with a local shop, as my 400E is a DD and I had to rent a car. Thus, waiting for SV transmission would take longerand eat into the savings. Most importantly, I wanted to have a local warranty. If, god-forbid, replacement SV unit would turn out problematic, I would have to jump out of the windowOh so you paid $2500 for Sun Valley to do a complete rebuild, and then had to pay another $4000 to have it rebuilt again 3 years later?
. Shifts weren't smooth, with some thumping and jerking, and so after several months Virginia shop pulled the transmission and rebuilt it again.
Yikes! So 3 rebuilds within 7k miles?!Yes, but statistically it's bound to happen to someone. Despite being out of warranty (24 months) owner offered to ship a replacement unit for free, but I still had to pay a local shop remove& install labor (IIRC, $1400-1700). I decided to go with a local shop, as my 400E is a DD and I had to rent a car. Thus, waiting for SV transmission would take longerand eat into the savings. Most importantly, I wanted to have a local warranty. If, god-forbid, replacement SV unit would turn out problematic, I would have to jump out of the window
As it turned out, I had to use the warranty
Well, 3 rebuilds within ~17k miles. I drove about 10k over the course of several months (8-10? I forgot) before 3rd rebuilt. Over those 10k mi thumping/jerking got progressively worse.
Ouch. Sorry to hear.
3 rebuilds... you’re definitely due a good hand dealt.
Yeah, incredibly inconvenient, time consuming and stressful. But it's what it is. Just unlucky.Ouch. Sorry to hear.
I had a similar issue w/ Ted @ Transmeister. After he rebuilt my 107 500SL it kept flaring from 2nd to third. He took it apart a couple of times and could never find the problem. When I picked it up after the third time he had installed a different transmission. ALL at NO COST to me. Ted was a stand up guy. The replaced trans worked perfectly.
This is likely true of many rebuilders, although I don't know Sun Valley's normal procedures. Related anecdote: About 10 years ago, a family member had a 722.3 (M119) trans rebuild by Schmid in San Francisco area. The car wasn't driven much for a couple years and the trans started acting up, just outside warranty. I found the vacuum modulator and O/L switch were original from the early 90's!!! Schmid had cheaped out and did not install new ones. I was not impressed. Replacing those items fixed most of the issues, but one shift oddity remained, slowing to ~20mph and accelerating (i.e., slowing on a 55mph road to turn onto a side road) resulted in a flare & bang as the trans downshifted from 4th to 2nd. Swapping valve bodies did not change anything, best I can tell something was not adjusted properly inside. The trans otherwise worked OK but I still haven't figured out a cure for the 4-2 downshift, but there is a TSB on it I need to try.
I agree, if you did insist on all new parts, the price may increase substantially. But it's worth asking.
I vaguely remember hearing something that even MB rebuilt transmissions aren't always as good as the originals from the 90's, but they are likely a safer bet than aftermarket rebuilds, and should have all new components. But dealer rebuilt transmissions are EXPENSIVE, and require purchase of a rebuilt torque converter or Mercedes won't warranty it. Looks like current pricing for both (trans+converter) from the dealer is ±$6,000 USD total. (!!!!) Not including labor.
I can tell you with 100% certainty that "rebuilders" such as Peter Schmid (SF Bay Area) and Sun Valley (SoCal) "re-use" used parts that are deemed to be good, in their rebuilds. I have seen freshly rebuilt transmissions from Schmid that have been torn apart, that clearly had re-used components that technically should have been replaced. This courtesy of Robert Fenton. Which is one reason why Fenton many years ago stopped buying rebuilds from Schmid.This is likely true of many rebuilders, although I don't know Sun Valley's normal procedures. Related anecdote: About 10 years ago, a family member had a 722.3 trans rebuild by Schmid in San Francisco area. The car wasn't driven much for a couple years and the trans started acting up, just outside warranty. I found the vacuum modulator and O/L switch were original from the early 90's!!! They cheaped out and did not install new ones. I was not impressed. Replacing those items fixed most of the issues, but one shift oddity remained, slowing to ~20mph and accelerating (i.e., slowing on a 55mph road to turn onto a side road) resulted in a flare & bang as the trans shifted from 4th to 2nd. Swapping valve bodies did not change anything, best I can tell something was not adjusted properly inside.
I agree, if you did insist on all new parts, the price may increase substantially. But it's worth asking.
I vaguely remember hearing something that even MB rebuilt transmissions aren't always as good as the originals from the 90's, but they are likely a safer bet than aftermarket rebuilds, and should have all new components. But they are EXPENSIVE, and require purchase of a rebuilt torque converter or they won't warranty it. Looks like current pricing for both from the dealer is ±$6,000 USD total. (!!!!) Not including labor.
Have you looked into pricing for a MB remanufactured one?
