Intake Manifold electroplating vs. Extrude Honing?

[Christian_K]

Hi, i actually wanted to portmatch, extrude hone the whole intake and exhaust-side and insert good camshafts into my car... However here in germany not a singe one of the companies ( 5 companies only!) that offer extrude hone (german: "Druckfließläppen"), would do something that "huge" like an intake manifold or exhaust manifold, not to speak about intakes and outlets of cylinder-heads and furthermore, they only do other business customers, not private individuals like me.
So a huge disappointment here, i was so keen about extrude-hone, i read about it almost since a half-year through all english-speaking sites & forums that covered it. It is way better than "normal" manual polishing and you can do the whole intake manifold with it, which is slmost impossible with the ordinary polishing tools.

I have spoken with a friend of mine, whose daddy owns a mid-size electroplating company near my location. Well they do electroplate with everything, from copper, over nickel, tin, zinc, gold, chrome, you name it. They can apply it onto nearly every surface that exists, including plastics (i was shocked to hear that).
He told me that he chromed his exhaust-manifolds that way with first copper, followed by nickel and last a thicker-layer of chrome. This lasts now since 3 years without issues, despite the massive heat. Finish is still shiny and very smooth.

Now, i told him about my disappointment with extrude-hone in germany and he said why not copper->nickel->chrome the whole intake manifold inside? He said the surface will be super-smooth and if he understood it right, the smoother the surface is, the better it is for Flow. Of course the intake manifold would then be also chromed from outside, but who cares...
What you guys think? How coarse is the intake manifold from inside? Would the copper-nickel-chrome layers be think enough to smooth it out?
Would you consider chroming the intake and exhaust ports in the cylinder-heads aswell, as an alternative for extrude-hone?

If thats all just rubbish, what is the best alternative for extrude honing the whole intake and outlets including the manifolds?

 

[gerryvz]

I have a couple of thoughts on this, for better or worse.

First of all, all other things being equal, you're going to see better results if intake passages are larger in diameter rather than the same diameter and only smoother. However, the passages MUST be flow-tested on a bench to optimize everything for best flow. This helps indicate where and how much material to take away. Just blindly removing material is not automatically the answer. It's sort of like with an exhaust system -- merely uprading your exhaust to a larger-diameter pipes may actually HURT the overall flow of the system. So, it's important that the entire manifold and intake system be baseline tested and then modeled as to how best to modify it. But like I said, the results you'd get with just polishing surface areas is going to be minimal -- negligible at best. There is no substitute for real engineering work with this exercise.

Secondly, I believe that there is a bit of roughness on the intake manifolds for a reason. This provides some additional micro-surface area that aids with cooling of the intake air by radiating any heat present. I believe MB would have polished the intake systems (or at least made it much smoother) if they knew that this provided a significant increase in power and/or flow. I know for a fact from the very large, cast aluminum intakes for the 300SEL 6.3 that MB very delibrately left these castings very rough on the surface for this very reason. Some 6.3 owners have "polished" their intakes over the years and I have heard DIRECTLY and PERSONALLY from the mouth of Erich Waxenberger, the father & designer of the 300SEL 6.3 car and the man in charge of MB's experimental/racing/sponsorship/rallying efforts during the 1960s through 1980s (and the man who gave his friends Aufrecht and Melcher their first few 6.3 engines for racing) that smoothing out the aluminum reduced efficiency in terms of cooling and that is why MB didn't do this.

Just my thoughts - take them for what they are worth.

So will we meet later this month when I am passing through your area? I plan a visit to Aschaffenburg to visit Vath and also will likely be in the Heidelberg/Walldorf area.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Christian_K]

Hi, interesting input there...

Well, i know from many reports and researches that polishing intakes alone indeed nets some more power on the M119s, like on basically all cars in the world.
Why the creators didn't done that is not because they did not knew it will net some power, but because of cost. Its always the cost... and the 500E is actually nothing special, its just the 5L V8 taken from the R129 and placed inside a W124 chassis. Why should have they tuned that thing further? 326HP(DIN) in a W124 Chassis was already a overkill.
And remember what did AMG did to the 6.0? Right they portmatched and polished the intakes... same as Brabus did, as Hagmann did, as MKB did, etc etc. Why should have they done it, if it won't net some power ? (OK granted it's in conjunction with some camshafts - but thats what i'm planning aswell).

Hagmann for instance, a german MB tuner told me by mail, that with their camshafts and "not" polished intakes (they mean in the cylinder head intakes i guess) the camshafts add 30HP (DIN) and with polished Intakes it will be up to 44HP(DIN) -> final Power 370HP(DIN) after adjusting LH.
Even just porting the M119 Throttle-Flap in the ETA nets some power, lots of people are doing this, even some tuners in russia on the M119s.

I think the very marginal power-loss by removing roughness inside the Intake manifold will largely compensated by the way more flow and power from an extrude honing of the whole thing.
Remember that one guy that did beat AMG 6.0 M119 rated Power on the old 500E Forums, by extrude-honing whole intake-manifold, portmatching the intake-ports, extrude-honing outlets in cylinder-head and exhaust-manifolds followed by some good camshafts, 2-way exhaust with metallic catalytic-converters, bypassing coolant-flow through intake-manifold, high-gloss polishing outsides of intake-manifold and a adjustment of the LH on a dyno? He made if i recall it correctly some 382HP, Dyno proven.

Also with my original Ideas, coating the outside of the intake-manifolds with a very good heat-blocking ceramic, aswells as bypassing the coolant was included in my plan.
I bet, with these things and a LH-Adjustment i will scratch the 390HP(DIN) mark.

During my research about extude honing intake-manifolds i found it to make significant power-gains especially on V8 and V12 cars. There was one case i found via google where a guy just extude honed the intake-manifold on his BMW 850CSI. He made some 15HP without any adjustment. Later on he portmatched the cylinder-head intakes, and let them be extrude-honed aswell + adjustment of ECU... He gained over 35HP!
Same was the case in some US Porsche Forum i read about extude-hone. They even made some dyno-test as in one Porsche Engine Series, Porsche apparently repalced the Aluminum intake-manifold with a plastic one and the car magicall had 10HP more... why? Because the Plastic manifold is super-smooth inside.

So as you can see, i am convinced that smoothing surfaces in the whole intake system, combined with other things like camshafts and Air-temperature reduction will net significant power on the M119s.
I read to much that points into this direction, to much first-hand informations and whatnot.

So this was for the Extrude-Hone which would be still my preferred way... even though electro-plating would be more or less "free" for me

 

[195910]

Gerry has a point regarding the increase of surface area. But since this is the intake manifold, we really don't want the heat exchange area to be larger. As this will increase the intake air temperature.

Christian seems to have do a good amount of research on this, with the plating being Free. I say Go for it!

Of course you must have Before and after Dyno runs.

I have another suggestion as well, this is very beneficial to the heat soaked 500E engine bay: http://www.mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/ ... anity.html
There are other more advanced types of shields available. You will need to wrap the air intake hoses, scoops behind the lights and lower air filter.
You can also wrap the exhaust manifold to prevent it from radiating heat into the engine bay. This (according to some sources) will increase the exhaust gas temperature in the manifold, making it escape faster.

 

[Christian_K]

Very interessting post, thanks... that heat-shield foil looks very good.
But i also know some products that will be sprayed and the baked in an oven for plastics and also reflect high amount of heat. Maybe better, because that Gold looks so "bling bling" style.

Does anyone know if copper/nickel/Chrome-plating is blocking heat too?
I just read in some tuning-online magazine about air-temps and thei benefit for power... Golden Rule was that every 10° (F) lower air intake Temperature, nets 1% more Power... even 1.5%-2% on Turbo/Compressor engines.

 

[195910]

I researched this in regards to the M113K cars. They are much more powerful than the M156, but they suffer from heat soak and high IAT. These are some of the solutions available.

As for the Gold....yes a bit bling bling on a 500E. But on a fully tuned E55/E63...

Don't forget the Dyno video!

 

[gerryvz]

So as you can see, i am convinced that smoothing surfaces in the whole intake system, combined with other things like camshafts and Air-temperature reduction will net significant power on the M119s.

I do not disagree with this point in any way.


On the recent rebuild of my M117, I had my intake manifold coated on the underside with ceramic which is designed to repel the engine heat away from the incoming air into the engine. The top of the intake manifold was also coated with Teflon for easier cleaning (makes it slipperier). This is a well known way to again add a very small, incremental amount of power by keeping engine heat away from the incoming air. But the manifold was not polished nor the surface made smooth, again for the same reasons I mentioned.

See attached photos of the intake manifold. The top (main) part of the M117 intake manifold is not all that different of a design from that of the M119.

I also had the exhaust manifolds coated for same reason -- there is a significant reduction in the amount of heat the coated exhaust manifold radiate into the engine compartment. Again see photos below.

Cheers
Gerry

 

[DerFuror]

Re: Heat Reduction Coatings

Swain Tech Coatings of Scottsville, NY (USA) is an extremely capable provider in heat (and friction) reduction coatings.

http://www.swaintech.com/store.asp?pid=10969

 

[samiam44]

interesting... I'm not sure what works on 6-6.5 liters will have the similar effect on a 5.0 liter. The velocity range of operation is different. Extrude hone and swain coating... that could be sweet.

Never seen much on tri-plating for performance of a manifold/head. If it worked wonders.. that technology would be widely used. Any of these takes quite a bit of labor. You can get fancy valves and probably gain similar improvements. Remember all improvements are not additive in excel. The Heggman motor dynoed at 365 Rear wheel hp- I think.

 

[Christian_K]

interesting... I'm not sure what works on 6-6.5 liters will have the similar effect on a 5.0 liter.

It does, like it does on every other car on the planet. Of course the power-gains on the 5L will be smaller than on the 6L, filling on the 6L is a bit higher.

Just about Portmatching, the stock 5L M119 ports are very very bad designed... Intake-Ports in the Cylinder-Heads have a SMALLER Diameter than the ports of the intake-manifold at the spot it attaches to the cylinder head... As i first saw this, i was like "WTF?!?! - This can't be true... this must be a huge bottleneck".
But then i saw the introduction into service manual for the E60AMG/500E 6.0AMG and that you have to cut the gaskets to match the widened/portmatched intake ports in the cylinder-heads and so everything was clear for me.
I continued to read weeks long about Portmatching, fluid mechanics and stuff and my initial thinking was very right, there is nothing worse for flow and the sucked-in air, than to literally "bounce off" at this overlapping material from the cylinder heads, shortly before entering the combustion chamber.

Never seen much on tri-plating for performance of a manifold/head. If it worked wonders.. that technology would be widely used. Any of these takes quite a bit of labor.

Me neither, but the reason would be the cost i guess.

The Heggman motor dynoed at 365 Rear wheel hp- I think.

Hagmann ;-) Which Hagmann Motor you talk about a 6.0L? And what does that have to do with my topic actually?
What i was talking about in regards to Hagmann, if you did read my post carefully, were the replacement camshafts he offers (use forums search pls).
They claim to do on the 5L M119 30-35HP (DIN) after LH-Adjustment without any intake Polishing and with intake polishing they do so much, that you reach dyno-verified 370HP (DIN) at the Crank of course - thats what Hagmann claims. But we are getting oftopic a bit, everything in regards to performance camshafts has been posted in this Forums already.


Anyway, back to topic with electroplating:
I have researched the last couple of hours a bit further and it seems that a Chrome, together with a layer of nickel is a excellent heat repellent. This way i could kill two birds with one stone, so to speak.... Heat Intake Air Temp reduction and smoothing surfaces for flow.

Does anyone know how to bypass coolant flow through the intake manifold? What would be the best option, retaining the original locations for the 3 coolant sensors?

 

[gerryvz]

Re: Heat Reduction Coatings

Swain Tech Coatings of Scottsville, NY (USA) is an extremely capable provider in heat (and friction) reduction coatings.

Indeed SwainTech is well known and I believe who Jono recommends for coatings. I used PolyDyn here in Houston - the owner of the company originally developed the coatings decades ago for NASA space programs. He is a friend (and of course competitor) of Dan Swain. PolyDyn also happens to be just a couple of miles from my office, which made getting my manifolds there very convenient.

http://www.polydyn.com/

http://www.polydyn.com/intake_manifolds.htm

http://www.polydyn.com/headers_and_exhaust.htm

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[NIIBE]

Christian K,

I have done Port Matching, Wet Blast and Coating for Upper and lower manifold of M119.
You can also find these are glinded light weightend for cold air flow and engine light weight.
I also have tried ceramic coating for Headers.

As My personal experience, They works excellent !
I believe that the most important thing for 500E tuning is cooling.

Regards

NIIBE

http://mercedesbenznetcom.blog81.fc2.com/

 

[195910]

Hi all,

For the headers insulation. I don't think the ceramic coating alone would be enough. there should be proper insulating material for the headers, which can reach near 900C !!
the exhaust temp for proper catalytic converter operation is +300C. So imagine the Temp at the headers and how much heat is radiated into the engine compartment just below the air box.

- Insulate headers with racing insulation (e.g glass fibre jacket)
- Insulate lower airbox heat reflective material (e.g heat reflective tape or sheet) .
- Insulate intake passages.

Another option is to hood modification. But this needs a lot of calculations and simulations. Not only cutting.

 

[DerFuror]

...there should be proper insulating material for the headers, which can reach near 900C !!

Engine compartment heat is indeed our greatest adversary.

A reputable provider of heat protection items:
http://www.thermotec.com/products/categ ... riers.html

Whenever the time arrives that I remove my engine, it will go back in with at least ceramic coated exhaust manifolds & header manifold blankets.

 

[Christian_K]

Pretty interesting, i think as long as the engine is still out, i'll wrap the exhaust manifold with something like this (i read about it the last hours, its highly recommended in man german tuning forums):
http://cgi.ebay.de/Hitzeschutzband-30m- ... 2a079795be
http://cgi.ebay.de/Graphit-HITZESCHUTZ- ... 35a4fb6eb5

It's some sort of a "band/ribbon" made out of ceramic/graphit, is 2mm strong and should massively blocking exhaust-manifold heat from getting into the engine compartment. Used in racing, you wrap your manifold with it.. It originally comes from home-oven insulation like i read.

 

[DerFuror]

I've used the heat wrap with positive results on motorcycle & especially British sportscar exhaust pipes which traditionally run directly beneath the passenger seating area. Depending on wrap material, the wrap is usually applied while damp & then allowed to dry. Once dry, it is painted with high-temperature paint.

http://www.thermotec.com/products/categ ... -wrap.html

For an exhaust manifold such as the 500E, my preference would be to use the blanket. It provides a cleaner appearance & will shed any fluids that may drip upon it over time. If I were racing the car, i would probably use the wrap instead.

 

[Christian_K]

Thanks for that Info...
I just looked at the 500E stock exhaust manifolds and its anway kind of impossible to properly wrap such wraps around it... :-(
And i have found no supplier in germany for the blanket...

I have now written some other ebay guy who offers lot of heat-insulating stuff... i showed him the picture of the blanket, but he needs to know how "thick" the stuff should be.
He can offer me a very thin (under 1mm) glass-fiber on one side and aluminium on the other side, he said they would be fine... although i want to have the "best" thing that is possible...
Is "thicker" better?

 

[195910]

Thanks for that Info...
I just looked at the 500E stock exhaust manifolds and its anway kind of impossible to properly wrap such wraps around it... :-(
And i have found no supplier in germany for the blanket...

I have now written some other ebay guy who offers lot of heat-insulating stuff... i showed him the picture of the blanket, but he needs to know how "thick" the stuff should be.
He can offer me a very thin (under 1mm) glass-fiber on one side and aluminium on the other side, he said they would be fine... although i want to have the "best" thing that is possible...
Is "thicker" better?

Good question Christian ! I am interested in this too. What are the differences between the various types of insulations ?

 

[gsxr]

Due to the design & location of the M119 manifolds, I really think it's a waste of time to attempt to wrap them with anything. Just get them thermally coated with something like Jet-Hot or SwainTech. They coat the inside & outside and it works very well to keep heat retained. The wraps have another drawback where they can trap moisture between the wrap and the manifold in some climates/conditions, potentially causing corrosion issues (not likely, but possible). Coatings won't have this issue.

My plan was to Extrude-Hone the exhaust manifolds and have them thermally coated. There's just not any major power to be gained in this area, it's not worth investing a lot of time into lots of R&D. As Christian and Niibe mentioned, there is more to be gained by fixing MB's screwup at the intake port junction...

 

[DerFuror]

...but he needs to know how "thick" the stuff should be.
He can offer me a very thin (under 1mm) glass-fiber on one side and aluminium on the other side, he said they would be fine... although i want to have the "best" thing that is possible...
Is "thicker" better?

The Thermo-Tec exhaust manifold blanket is approx 1/16" (0.0625"), 1.60 mm thick. Constructed of a glass-fiber & aluminium sandwich.

Thicker is not always better. The "right" thickness is best.

(As stated by Thermo-Tec regarding their Heat Wrap product; but I'm sure the general theory encompasses their entire product lineup...)
Through a proprietary treatment of inorganic materials, the material develops the unique ability to conduct heat across its surface. This provides distribution of heat throughout the system providing insulation without creating hot spots. The conductivity of just the right amount of heat to combat the problems of the heat radiated by an exhaust system were developed over a period of 3 years of research and development. The specific make up of the Header Wrap was developed as to not over insulate the system and provide just the right amount of Insulating properties. It is very important to retain only a specific amount of heat. We caution the use of any products said to be used for this purpose. The specific make up of Thermo-Tec Header Wrap Is a delicate balance of high temperature materials blended to control a accurate amount of heat dissipation Beware of any products said to be used for this use.

 

[JC220]

Bringing his thread back to life! Being a good citizen I searched the subject rather than creating new threads where possible.

I can't find any companies in Ireland who could coat my m119 manifold / headers with a anti heat coating.

I would rather just get the engine together now than start shipping parts away. So my question Is in relation to the gold heat reflective tape available on ebay

I am thinking about the intake manifold specifically. To apply some of this tape right on the underside of the lower intake plenum where it might reflect rising heat from the crankcase. And to the underside of the air cleaner box. Always discrete where it cannot be seen.

Has anyone employed this gold tape and if so, where on a m119? Again I do not want to see the stuff! It would be hideous. But it might also give some minor improvements applied in key areas and is inexpensive

https://www.funkmotorsport.com/golden-reflection-benefits-reflective-gold-heat-tape/

 

[Rouven036]

I think it will not do anything noticeable at all due to three reasons.
1. As long there is still Metall to metal contact at the intake runners to the cylinder head ports, the heat will always be transfered into the manifold.
2. Water passages in the front and rear will still heat up the manifold. The inner v is as hot as the engine coolant temp.
3. Even if insulated, theses engines have relatively low performance thus the results will be little to non existent. Further on full throttle, the intake temp is greatly reduced by the moving air volume
For example I can see this easy on my supercharged M117 in the W123. Stop the car once hot and restart it after 10min. Intake air temp (measured in the plenum) is in the mid 90 degrees. Keep it running for for another few minutes (idle only - no boost) and the intake temps go down to somewhere almost ambient temperature.

 

[gsxr]

I agree with Rouven. In general, you can't do enough to keep heat out with shielding. Re-creating the intake out of plastic, or re-routing the coolant separate from the intake, might make a difference... but that would be cost prohibitive. Thermal coating might help a little but I wouldn't expect much (and, low ROI).

 

[gerryvz]

I have never noticed any difference whatsoever by coating the intake manifold and the exhaust manifolds of my 560SEC. That was nine years ago.