M119 94 E420 no start (Carbon on valves)

[samm]

Hi guys

I hope that some experienced fellows can offer an opinion on my current troubles.

I have a 94 E420 with 125k miles.

I bought it in May 2015 with 108k miles. \\\\\had to put in a rebuilt transmission within 5k miles of buying it.

Anyway, last week I came to start the car. It started up but was very rough, a lot of shaking for a few seconds, at least 30 seconds. I pressed the accelerator thinking this may help the shaking, but the car STALLED.

Since that time the car does not start. \prior to this sometimes the car would surge when decelerating (only happened 3 or 4 times over the course of months). Also sometimes the car would shake a lot upon startup but only for 10 or 20 seconds. These events would occur every few weeks. So its not constant.

So far I have replaced several parts (thanks to a particularly helpful friend) that came off a fully working e420 (I saw it running);

EZL
LH Module
Base Module
E Gas module
Fuel Relay
fuel pumps and new filter
distributor caps and rotors.

A point to note is that when I replaced the transmission about 6 months ago i had not tightened down the bolt for the crankshaft position sensor at the rear of the engine. Today I put my hand back there and the sensor completely came off in my hand. So I replaced it and tightened the 5mm allen bolt. However still no start (could the sensor have burned out due to poor contact?)

I always 91 fuel here in California.

the car sounds like its cranking but quite weakly. So I checked the battery, its showing 12.1 volts. Somebody also told me that the amperage may be down and that the battery may be the cause.

the car does not even give a hint that it may start while cranking.

I hope you guys can take a few mins to put your thinking caps on and help me out. I already got a ticket because i couldn't move the car during the street sweeping hours! i live in an apartment so no driveway..

Thank you in advance

 

[gsxr]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I'd clear codes, then try to start, and see if you get any codes that come back immediately. Otherwise, it's hard to tell what's going on without more info. Try squirting a SMALL amount of starting fluid down the ETA/MAF, if it fires up, you're not getting fuel. If it still doesn't fire, you're not getting spark. And yes, you MUST have the rear flywheel sensor working properly or it won't fire at all.

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I'd clear codes, then try to start, and see if you get any codes that come back immediately. Otherwise, it's hard to tell what's going on without more info. Try squirting a SMALL amount of starting fluid down the ETA/MAF, if it fires up, you're not getting fuel. If it still doesn't fire, you're not getting spark. And yes, you MUST have the rear flywheel sensor working properly or it won't fire at all.

hi gsxr

Thank you for replying

I did try the started fluid into the MAF, made absolutely zero difference.

the check engine light is not on so thats why I never used my code reader.

I suppose I will go and do that and see..

I work from 8 - 5 mon to fri so my updates will be a bit slow.

Could an ignition coil do this?

 

[gsxr]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

The check engine light ONLY shows emissions-related codes, stored on the DM (Diagnostic Module). You have to check codes on the other 5 powertrain modules (BM, EZL, LH, E-GAS, ABS/ASR). The important ones for running the engine will be LH (fuel) and EZL/DI (ignition). Yes, an ignition could could do this, but only if both failed simultaneously, which is very unlikely. As a long shot, try pulling the caps/rotors, then remove the rotor bracket, and the insulator bowl behind the bracket. Check the back side of the insulator, make sure it is dry... if there is any fluid present, this COULD be causing a severe misfire that prevents the engine from starting. I'm suspecting your problem is elsewhere, but it helps to rule out things...

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Thanks gsxr
I am really so thankful for your assistance.
I will try and get some adapter for my code reader so that i can use it with the 38 pin socket.
I bought the code reader off eBay but it doesn't have an adapter for.the 38 pin.
I will report back with updates!
Thank you kindly

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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Gsxr
Do these cars sometimes not start if there are certain faults stored in the ecu?


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[gsxr]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Gsxr
Do these cars sometimes not start if there are certain faults stored in the ecu?

Not that I'm aware of, no. It should still start up regardless of what codes are stored (unless a module is defective).

Quick question - is your "new" EZL the same exact part number as the original? They are not all interchangeable on the 4.2L engines...

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I will check the ezl part numbers today!

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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I took it out of a non asr model like mine.
Will definitely get the part number after work!

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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I've never had a m119 befire. Started to hate it. But with your assistance I'm starting to feel like I can begin to understand the settup. M103 and m104 were a lot simpler!


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[gsxr]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

The EZL is the same for ASR and non-ASR, but the model year (possibly VIN) is what matters. I do know that a 1994-95 E420 will not start or run with a 1992 400E EZL installed (BT, DT).

The ABS module and T/LLR modules are different between ASR and non-ASR cars, and are not interchangeable. But neither should prevent the engine from starting.

Once you get the M119 running properly you'll never want to touch an M103 again. The M104 isn't bad, just a tad underpowered...

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Hi gsxr

Ok i ran tool and got theses flashes:

Socket 6 = 25

socket 7 = 6 and 11

socket 14 = continuous light, no flashes

socket 16 = continuous light but also flashed 13 and 31 engine coolant temp sensor open circuit and duo valve short circuit/open (by the way the heating never worked since i bought it)

socket 17 = 18 magnets for crankshaft sensor not recognized (the sensor was completely loose so it must have been bouncing around for a long time)

i cannot find the codes for socket 6, 7. My car does NOT have ASR, 1994 e420.

I hope you can help!!

Thank you!

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

im thinking maybe because the Crankshaft sensor was loose for so long it got burned out and went faulty? I simply bolted it back. But what if it is faulty now?

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

ok

socket 6 = 25 flashes left front axle vehicle speed sensor L6/1 implausible signal

socket 7 = 6 and 11 flashes. 6 is safety contact switch m16/3s1. 11 is fuels safety shutoff signal to LH SFI control module n3/1

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

in my limited experience with this engine its either the CKP sensor or the fuel safety shutoff signal to LH module that this would prevent the car from starting. Hope to hear your opinion!

thanks

Sam

 

[gsxr]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Anything from socket 4 (LH)?

Code list is found here, PDF attachments in the top three "sticky" posts:
http://www.500eboard.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=23

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Hi gsxr
No codes from socket 4. Checked 3 times.

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[Raffaelli]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Shouldn't be too hard to figure this one out.

Get a fuel pressure guage and measure fuel pressure first.

Does a coil wire spark when it's unplugged and the engine turns over?

Check those first, but The ckp is probably bad I'm guessing. I had one go bad on my car and it ran very odd, (didn't want to rev/wasn't smooth). I replaced one with a used m104 sensor out of a junkyard because new it's a over a hundred bucks.

 

[gsxr]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Pin 7 code 6 should not appear on a non-ASR, USA-spec car... factory docs show "Not valid for U.S.A. vehicles".

Pin 7 code 11 can also be "Closed throttle recognition signal to LH-SFI control module (N3/1)", btw.

Pin 16 is irrelevant as the HVAC system has no connection to engine management. There is nothing at pin 14.

Still don't think it's a fuel issue if starting fluid didn't make it fire. Something is killing the spark. Clear code 18 from pin 17 (EZL) and see if it comes back after clearing... if so, it's possible your CKP is either defective, or not installed properly.

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Hi guys
Thank u for the input thus far...
I really don't think it's a fuel thing either, especially after I've replaced the main things that would affect fuel delivery.

I think maybe the ckp sensor has gone faulty.

But gsxr how can I install the ckp sensor incorrectly? It's in the hole and bolted in. Is there a wrong way to have it in there and bolted in?
I installed it from within the engine bay which was difficult as I could not see exactly what I was doing. I wonder if I should install it from underneath the car...

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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

The symptoms keep ringing in my head. Car started, ran v badly like it was misfiring, I pressed accelerator.and it stalled, never to start again.


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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Unfortunately I'm at work everyday so my progress is so.slow!

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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I have not performed a spark test or any of that stuff yet simply because I had so many parts at my disposal to replace and see if it fixed the issue. So I guess back.to basics

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[gsxr]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

But gsxr how can I install the ckp sensor incorrectly? It's in the hole and bolted in. Is there a wrong way to have it in there and bolted in?
I installed it from within the engine bay which was difficult as I could not see exactly what I was doing. I wonder if I should install it from underneath the car...

It would be hard to install the CKP incorrectly, unless it's not fully seated. If the EZL is not receiving any signal from the CKP, it won't fire at all... not a sputter, not a misfire, not a cough, nada, nothing.

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Well that's how the car is right now. Not anything. It's scary because ur mind thinks that maybe the engine has damage or something. But I sincerely doubt engine damage

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[Stevester 500E]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

A fairly typical symptom with a CKP sensor gone bad is that the car will start when the sensor is cold and wont start when hot.

My limited experience with a bad CKP is that a bad one doesn't make the engine run bad or erratic. When mine went bad, my car stalled immediately-it didn't sputter, it just stalled. When the sensor was cold enough to start, it would start right up without any misfires or sputters.

I took my car to an indy, and he said he tested the CKP sensor and that is was within spec and that he needed more time with the car to diagnosis it, etc. I ordered a CKP thru AutohausAZ and installed it my self and it solved my problem.
The indy shop has a decent reputation, but am not sure why they couldn't give me a correct diagnosis.

When I installed mine, I was cursing the whole way. But after all is said and done, the best way I found was to use a long extension with the allen socket, drop it in from the top close to the target, get underneath and set the allen firmly in place, go back to the top, and loosen from the top. Install is the reverse of these steps.

Having said all that, if I had to put money on it, I am not convinced it is your CKP.

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I basically hear the starter but absolutely no hint that the engine will start.
The crazy thing is maybe the ckp has gone faulty and I erroneously just bolted it back. I should have replaced it. I will replace the ckp sensor probably on Saturday mmorning.
I'll report back

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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Guys, neutral safety switch failure would mean no starter movement whatsoever right? Just be absolutely dead?

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[gsxr]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Guys, neutral safety switch failure would mean no starter movement whatsoever right? Just be absolutely dead?

Correct. If the NSS was bad or misadjusted, the engine would not crank. The NSS won't prevent a cranking engine from firing.

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Makes snse gsxr!


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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Guys how does one properly test a car battery. I know the basic voltage checks with car off and then also running. What about the amps?

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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

My battery is now dead. Even though I hardly did much cranking.

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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I'm not one of those people who keeps cranking fir 10 seconds etc. If it's not starting in 3 or 4 then I stop!

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[gsxr]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

You could have a drain somewhere, but for now, disconnect the battery and charge it via a slow or medium rate charger (1A to 10A approx). If the battery is more than 5-7 years old it could just be at the end of it's useful life.

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Thanks gsxr. I will try and find out how old the battery is...
By the way is it easier to remove the Crank position sensor from underneath the car or from above?
I found it very difficult to do from above.

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[gsxr]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I don't know any trick to R&R the CKP... it's a RPITA either way. Pretty sure the best method is from above, unless you have a lift, and even then I don't think you can access it well from underneath either. If you are REALLY lucky, it will be a metal-body sensor that is corroded/seized in place.

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Thankfully mineis.not the metal one and is not seized... lucky! It's just accessing the 5mm allen bolt without a small enough tool.
But it is doable!

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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

A nice 1/4 5mm allen on a long extension would reach the bolt. Then the rest is fumbling blindly by hand. To put the new ckp sensor back in and then put the 5mm bolt back on. The bolt will fall many times so I'll have the magnetic pickup tool ready!

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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Hi guys
Changed the crankshaft position sensor just now.
Still not starting.

The cranking sounds very very weak. Almost like the starter is turning slowly. Doesn't sound like a healthy starter. But then again maybe this is how it is for m119?

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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

The thing that is a good clue is that the car STARTED then stalled when I pressed the gas. Then never started again.

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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I am of course talking about when the problem first occurred. The car hasn't started for over 2 week.

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[gsxr]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I don't have a video of how the starter should sound, but it should spin the engine very quickly. If it sounds weak, either the battery is weak, or the starter is dying.

Have you checked the electrical basics - clean/tight battery terminals, and checking all fuses in both the fuse box, and in the CAN box?

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Hi gsxr
Thanks for your reply.
Yes I checked all fuses.
It doesn't spin the engine quickly at all. Even when the battery was charged and even when I had it hooked up to another running car to get a jump start.
I don't know if starter motors gradually go bad or suddenly go bad.
I have a spare used starter. And I have another battery.
But what I don't understand is the car STARTED then stalled when I pressed the gas. Then never started again. Surely a bad starter would not have allowed the car to start in the first place.

I'm in a very difficult spot. I don't have a driveway and have to fix the car on a semi busy street. I'm low on cash too. Can't afford to take to a mechanic.
Another weekend without success!
I guess I will continue on Christmas eve.!

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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Someone told me maybe the timing chain jumped upon cold startup.
I didn't hear any metallic clattering such as the valves hitting pistons.
I need to check.the timing. Bit need to order the new gaskets for when I put the valve covers back on. In case of leaks.

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[gsxr]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

It's possible, but VERY unlikely, that the timing chain jumped. I'd go back to checking for spark. If there's no spark... don't bother pulling the valve covers to check valve timing.

I'm also assuming it's not a fuel delivery problem if you squirted ether / starting fluid down the MAF and it still didn't fire. Which goes back to lack of ignition.

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I have nobody to help me so that I can check for spark. I need someone.to turn the key while I . check.
Hopefully I can ask someone walking passed!

I also am struggling with thinking that the timing chain jumped. But I've changed so any ignition items. I think I only need to.try the ignition coils.
Will update

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[luckymike]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I have nobody to help me so that I can check for spark. I need someone.to turn the key while I . check.
Hopefully I can ask someone walking passed!

I also am struggling with thinking that the timing chain jumped. But I've changed so any ignition items. I think I only need to.try the ignition coils.
Will update

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This really sounds like what my '95 E420 did once. Turned out to be the fuel pumps. I know you've changed yours but I'd still press in on that little Schrader valve on the fuel rail to see if you have pressure.

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Hi Mike
Thanks fir your input I will definitely check that out!

I never owned a m119 before so I'm learning more about this system.

I've had m104 and M103 in the past. Well I still have my 300E as well

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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I brought my 300E over from London. Unfortunately someone has already hit it while it was parked!!

My E420 is a California car that I have no clue about it's maintenance history

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