M119 94 E420 no start (Carbon on valves)

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Klink.
You ARE THE MAN!!

I did what you said and it worked!!!

Engine started!!!

Thank you x10000

Unbelievable.
What a lesson. What an experience. I have never ever heard of this prblem before. In any car.
I am uploading 2 videos to show what happened within about 15 seconds off ot starting. Then also after about 10 mins after it started.

Car still has a slight hesitation very few mins but I think that is expected.

Guys Thank you all. I really appreciate all the pics and opinions and explanations that you all uploaded!

I need to just figure out how this carbon deposit got so bad on the valves that it actually caused this.

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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Thank you to everyone who posted info and suggestions.

GSXR and lowman and everyone else. I will look through the posts later on at home and will thank everyone!

Big big thanks to Jeff in Orange County for being awesome with so many parts for this 420.

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[Klink]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Klink.
You ARE THE MAN!!

I did what you said and it worked!!!

Engine started!!!

Thank you x10000

Whoozurdaddy? Say it!

 

[Klink]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Glad it worked out. As always, there was excellent advice from everybody. This forum rocks like Elvis!

The cause is usually just crappy fuel combined with unfavorable use conditions. What happens is the deposits buildup on the valves. Then one day the temperature and humidity are just right, and the carbon expands, or possibly contracts, I don't know. It fractures and falls off of the valves, usually in several large pieces. Some of those pieces get stuck between the valves and the seats, and the rapidly rising oil pressure rushes into the lifters and takes up the space. Now some of the valves will be stuck open. The only thing that seems to get the lifters compressed back to their normal state is rapid repeated compression by the cams.

An identical situation occurs when the oil pressure relief valve in the oil pump sticks closed. In those cases the engine cranks normally, fires a few times, and just as it begins to gain speed the excessive oil pressure extends the lifters thereby pushing the valves open. If you have a permanently stuck oil pressure relief valve the engine will fire off after a long cranking just as yours did, then it will immediately stall again, and the cycle will continue just that way until the weather gets much warmer, and/or the pump gets repaired.

The difficult thing is knowing the actual cause. Oil pressure relief valves almost never permanently stick, and the carbon issue can't be known unless the cylinders are inspected with a bore scope and the carbon is seen stuck between the valves and the seats. Even then, if it was the exhaust valves, and it usually is, the carbon can already be exited from the combustion chamber and you will only see the open valves, so the "evidence" tends to look the same either way!

If it happens over and over, it is probably the oil pressure relief valve. If it does not continue to happen, it was probably just carbon. In the immortal words of Tommy Boy, I've seen it a hundred times. And yes, gobs of M119 oil pumps have been unnecessarily replaced over loose valve carbon...

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Glad it worked out. As always, there was excellent advice from everybody. This forum rocks like Elvis!

The cause is usually just crappy fuel combined with unfavorable use conditions. What happens is the deposits buildup on the valves. Then one day the temperature and humidity are just right, and the carbon expands, or possibly contracts, I don't know. It fractures and falls off of the valves, usually in several large pieces. Some of those pieces get stuck between the valves and the seats, and the rapidly rising oil pressure rushes into the lifters and takes up the space. Now some of the valves will be stuck open. The only thing that seems to get the lifters compressed back to their normal state is rapid repeated compression by the cams.

An identical situation occurs when the oil pressure relief valve in the oil pump sticks closed. In those cases the engine cranks normally, fires a few times, and just as it begins to gain speed the excessive oil pressure extends the lifters thereby pushing the valves open. If you have a permanently stuck oil pressure relief valve the engine will fire off after a long cranking just as yours did, then it will immediately stall again, and the cycle will continue just that way until the weather gets much warmer, and/or the pump gets repaired.

The difficult thing is knowing the actual cause. Oil pressure relief valves almost never permanently stick, and the carbon issue can't be known unless the cylinders are inspected with a bore scope and the carbon is seen stuck between the valves and the seats. Even then, if it was the exhaust valves, and it usually is, the carbon can already be exited from the combustion chamber and you will only see the open valves, so the "evidence" tends to look the same either way!

If it happens over and over, it is probably the oil pressure relief valve. If it does not continue to happen, it was probably just carbon. In the immortal words of Tommy Boy, I've seen it a hundred times. And yes, gobs of M119 oil pumps have been unnecessarily replaced over loose valve carbon...

Simply invaluable advice. There are how to instructions and such that one can see on forums to help one replace parts. BUT your decades of experience is far more important because you just saved me from tearing my engine apart at a time that I am very financially stressed and stressed in general! Your experience helped diagnose or narrow down a problem that I struggled to actually understand initially, because I had never seen/heard of this before.

Klink I am going to.attempt to send you a PM so.that I can get some info from you. I did say that I would buy someone a nice lunch (or a case of ur favorite beverage).

Anyway here is the first video. About 15 seconds after startup!

[video=youtube;wlE1oFJ_T8A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlE1oFJ_T8A&[/video]

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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Hey guys this is the second video.
Hoping that it can maybe help someone like me in the future.
I am lucky that many of you bothered to try and help. Maybe someone else may not get much help.
So... hopefully there is some use for the video.

[video=youtube;CD0BMsTyAVA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD0BMsTyAVA[/video]

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[lowman]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

This is aaaawesome ,Sammmmmmmm im so happy this turned out to be this good..and well deserved

now its time to clean the engine with some engine flush.....or what do you say , GSXR?

 

[samiam44]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I was thinking the same thing- but don't like engine flushing. I believe Motul would be a great natural cleaner. Watch oil pressure and consumption as the debris can clog oil filters.

Fantastic to hear it running!! We all here tend to be focused on what we see. Jono/Klink see at the pro level neglected cars. My engine is at 130k and it has no varnish inside. It has obviously been on diet of synthetic and short change intervals since new!

I did see for 2 strokes at the store a upper cylinder cleaner and I know GM use to make one which was quite severe. BG product? Maybe something like that to clean some carbon out.

 

[gsxr]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I agree with samiam44. Don't use engine flush!! To de-sludge, use Auto-RX and follow their recommendations to the letter. To de-varnish, there isn't much of anything you can do (and the varnish doesn't really hurt anything). Easiest thing is to use a Group IV/V true synthetic which will slowly clean things out over tens of thousands of miles. Engines that look brand new insides (silver/aluminum color on everything, not brown) either had been exclusively on premium synthetic, and/or on very short change intervals.

To clean the fuel system and valves, I use Red Line SI-1 injector cleaner. The dealer sells the BG stuff which I believe also works well, but is even more expensive. Ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure... don't buy cheap gas. Only name-brand, "top tier" fuels, and only premium (which these cars require anyway) as the premium high-octane generally has more detergents in the blend (Techron, V-Power, yadda yadda) than the lower octanes, even for top-tier fuels.

 

[gsxr]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

The cause is usually just crappy fuel combined with unfavorable use conditions. What happens is the deposits buildup on the valves. Then one day the temperature and humidity are just right, and the carbon expands, or possibly contracts, I don't know. It fractures and falls off of the valves, usually in several large pieces. Some of those pieces get stuck between the valves and the seats, and the rapidly rising oil pressure rushes into the lifters and takes up the space. Now some of the valves will be stuck open. The only thing that seems to get the lifters compressed back to their normal state is rapid repeated compression by the cams.

Klink, you read my mind... I was going to ask about the cause. I suspected it was extended use of cheap gas. What do you recommend as a solution, besides using top-tier premium? Any particular cleaner you prefer to help de-carbon? Or just lots of high-RPM, high-load to burn it out (the in-famous Italian Tuneup)?

On a side note, the visual appearance under the valve covers kinda supports the cheap gas theory, IMO. If a previous owner only fed it cheap gas, they probably used cheap oil too and did not change it when they should have. A quick peek under the oil fill cap when car shopping can give you a rough idea of what kind of past life it had.

 

[Klink]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

All good advice up above. In my opinion, no kind of extraordinary cleanup measures should be taken. Let a couple of more frequent oil changes with a quality oil slowly and gently clean things up. Any sudden or dramatic stirring up of sludges usually does more harm than good.
Also, there is not likely anything to clean up on the valves right now. The carbon tends to accumulate until it breaks off of the valves in nice valve shaped pieces, usually all the way down to clean bare metal. Use only name-brand premium fuel. Use a quality synthetic engine oil that meets Mercedes-Benz spec 229.3 or 229.5. Use an OEM oil filter. Change the oil at about 4000 miles the next couple of times, then you can go all the way out to 7500 miles.

If you want to do a couple of fuel treatments with Chevron Techron fuel additive, or some of the other things mentioned between this and the next oil change or so, I don't have any trouble with that. Follow the instructions on the bottle, and don't use it anymore than a couple of times between oil changes. Techron is readily available just about everywhere and I know it will not harm anything unless it is over-used, something that the instructions on the bottle will warn you against.

 

[suginami]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Even Costco gas is Top Tier now.

Premium is $2.99 / gallon today, $0.40 / gallon cheaper than Chevron.

 

[Klink]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Even Costco gas is Top Tier now.

Premium is $2.99 / gallon today, $0.40 / gallon cheaper than Chevron.

By all means, if you can get "Top-Tier" gas at a bargain price, do it. I would definitely fill up at a Costco advertising "Top Tier"

When I say "brand name" I am saying that I do not fill up at those places that literally have no "brand-name" of any kind on them. There are a number of those out there, and I'm sure that most of the time the fuel they are pumping is someone else's "name brand" gas, but I want to have at least some inkling of a suggestion that there is someone with a big corporate name to protect, and the resources to stand behind a product. When I see a station that has nothing but gas pumps and signs with only prices on them, it gives me the willies. Probably completely irrational willies, but willies nonetheless...

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Klink, you read my mind... I was going to ask about the cause. I suspected it was extended use of cheap gas. What do you recommend as a solution, besides using top-tier premium? Any particular cleaner you prefer to help de-carbon? Or just lots of high-RPM, high-load to burn it out (the in-famous Italian Tuneup)?

On a side note, the visual appearance under the valve covers kinda supports the cheap gas theory, IMO. If a previous owner only fed it cheap gas, they probably used cheap oil too and did not change it when they should have. A quick peek under the oil fill cap when car shopping can give you a rough idea of what kind of past life it had.

I have only owned this car since April 2015.
Always out 91 in it. And have been using a fuel system cleaner for the last 2 months. Maybe the cleaner did such a good job thst it dislodged a lot of the carbon?

I will look into the cleaning stuff for sure. I really don't like having too many uncertainties with cars. Already have a rebuilt transmission. So maybe in the near future I can work on making the engine more reliable.

Those guide rails and the chain tensioner seem like a ticking bomb. Will fail at any time it seems. So i.wil definitely look at replacing rails, chain and tensioner.

I think the tool for the chain crimping is in ebay.
[emoji2] [emoji2]

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[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

By the way the car started right up today. Then stalled after about 3 mins.
Then started again. Never used to stall so I will need to research what that is

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[Klink]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Last 2 months? In that case, stop putting any kind of "cleaner" in it and change your oil and oil filter. Many fuel treatments contaminate engine oil.

 

[gsxr]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Those guide rails and the chain tensioner seem like a ticking bomb. Will fail at any time it seems. So i.wil definitely look at replacing rails, chain and tensioner.

I think the tool for the chain crimping is in ebay.

The guide rails, if original, should probably be changed when you have a spare 10-20 hours to mess with them. It is a MAJOR job for a DIY mechanic who has never done them before. The real test is to pull the lower oil pan and check for rail debris. And also to try and remove the top/center rails between sprockets, if they snap easily during removal, you know they are toast. Have new ones handy before you try this of course. If you find the inner/center rails snapped off at top or bottom, replace the rails and re-check chain stretch. If it's reduced from the 6-7° you have now down to 3-4° (with new rails and original chain)... I would not roll in a new chain. I doubt a new tensioner is worth the ~$300 expense, I've heard of awfully few tensioner failures (if any?) on these engines. And there's no way I'd replace the original tensioner with a new Febi tensioner, which appears to be the only aftermarket one available currently.

Last 2 months? In that case, stop putting any kind of "cleaner" in it and change your oil and oil filter. Many fuel treatments contaminate engine oil.

+1!!! Best to use injector cleaner right before an oil change. Never right after an oil change.

I strtd using mercedes 5w30 full stn engine oil about 2500 miles ago. I was using 5w40 fully syn liquidmoly before that. Since I started using the 5w 30 fully synthetic I added 1 liter of oil. About 1200 miles after the oil change. And now again it was on minimum, at this point less than 2500 miles since the change.

When I was using 5w 40 liquid mloy fully synthetic the engine hardly used up oil. I mean I think I added half a liter in 9500 miles.

And while we're discussing religion, politics, and oil... 5W-30 viscosity is not ideal for your mild climate in SoCal. The original MB spec was xW-40 or xW-50. You don't need xW-30 unless you live in Alaska or Minnesota. The fact that the engine started consuming oil is a warning sign, stop using that stuff. I'd go back to the 5W-40 you were using previously if you like it. Adding a half-liter in 9500 miles is excellent. Adding 1 liter every 1200 miles is bad.

Remember not all synthetics are created equal. The cheaper ones ($5-$7 per quart, roughly) are usually Group III base stocks which are hydrocracked dino oils... I call these "fake" synthetics. The good stuff uses Group IV/V base stocks, these are "true" synthetics and generally cost around $10-$15 per quart. The only way to know for sure is to do research on the BITOG forum, as the manufacturer will almost never admit if they are selling Group III oils. Another way to identify a Group III synthetic is if the engine uses almost no oil for the first 5000 miles or so, then somewhere around 6-7kmi it suddenly starts "burning" a quart every 1-2kmi. That's a classic sign of Group III that has sheared down and is overdue for a change. If you change oil frequently (3-5kmi), Group III is fine. If you are going 7-10kmi or beyond, pay up for the Group IV/V stuff. If going past 10-12kmi I'd also get at least one or two oil analyses with TBN to make sure you're not extending the interval too far. The whole oil thing has been beaten to death discussed repeatedly on the forum, go read some of the existing threads for more info.

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Well excellent advice with the guide rails. I will see abkut taking the oil pan off. Of course as you say plastic debris should be there if the rails broke.

Yes I think I will stop using the Mercedes 5w 30. I will go back to the liqui Moly 5w 40 fully synthetic. That was barely consuming oil.

By the way. The car stalls every few minutes. It starts straight away thkugh. This never used to happen before. Any ideas?

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I wonder if the stalling is from the fuel parts I replaced. I put in a pair of good used (not very old) Bosch pumps but I used the check valve thst came with it. Put a new filter of course. Will see anyway I guess.
I also put I a used EZL which I will be removing and putting my original one back. Also the CKPS sensor was a used one. Man I feel like I'm going to reverse several things! Haha! [emoji107] [emoji51]

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[Allgonquin]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Samm, good on you for hanging in there. I know how it can be if you have no one handy to help you with these sorts of tests and troubleshooting. You will appreciate this car once you get it back to good nick and hammer it a few times on the road. Hind sight is 20-20 but as I was a silent observer my thoughts were that there were no structural issues. It sounded more like flooding or fouled plugs to me, together with slow turnover due to a weak battery or starter. But anyway, you had the best 119 minds on this so I just shut up and watched.

There was/is a well known issue with BMW's at least through the E46 series that was known as the car wash syndrome or words to that effect. You back the car out of the garage and shut it down to wash it, only having had it run for 10-20 seconds or so. Then you can not get it restarted after you wash it. It is nothing to do with getting water on anything, it is that the car has started with a rich mixture and never really clears it out because it runs for such a short time, and is then completely flooded upon the second attempt to start. Many a flatbed has been called due to that.

Tell us more about the body kit, etc. and your 190 as well.

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Samm, good on you for hanging in there. I know how it can be if you have no one handy to help you with these sorts of tests and troubleshooting. You will appreciate this car once you get it back to good nick and hammer it a few times on the road. Hind sight is 20-20 but as I was a silent observer my thoughts were that there were no structural issues. It sounded more like flooding or fouled plugs to me, together with slow turnover due to a weak battery or starter. But anyway, you had the best 119 minds on this so I just shut up and watched.

There was/is a well known issue with BMW's at least through the E46 series that was known as the car wash syndrome or words to that effect. You back the car out of the garage and shut it down to wash it, only having had it run for 10-20 seconds or so. Then you can not get it restarted after you wash it. It is nothing to do with getting water on anything, it is that the car has started with a rich mixture and never really clears it out because it runs for such a short time, and is then completely flooded upon the second attempt to start. Many a flatbed has been called due to that.

Tell us more about the body kit, etc. and your 190 as well.

Thank you for your input [emoji106]

The 190E is not mine it's Jeffs in orange county CA. MINT is an understatement I think for that car. [emoji2]

The other car is my 300E from London. Right hand drive.

I will be doing a fee things on the E420 on the weekend. It has been raining heavily for a few days here in orange county.

Will put new valve cover gasket on the right side of the engine because I think yiu cannot reuse the previous one as far as I know. Although the gasket is still rubbery not hard.
But anyway I'll put a new one on to prevent leaks.
Will take care of a leaky washer at the fuel pump check valve as well.

Will change my oil back to 5w 40 fully synthetic liquid moly once again. The mercedes 5w 30 has been disappearing way too quickly for my comfort.

[emoji51]

I must say I'm just still so relieved that there appears to be no engine damage.

Thank God! [emoji106] [emoji106] [emoji106] [emoji4]


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[Hakie]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I followed this thread. Not that i could advise you but i am happy that it was not major damage. Thanks for sharing. [emoji106]I think this could be very, very helpfull for many owners.

 

[gsxr]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Will put new valve cover gasket on the right side of the engine because I think yiu cannot reuse the previous one as far as I know. Although the gasket is still rubbery not hard. But anyway I'll put a new one on to prevent leaks.

If it's soft, it could be re-used, especially if it's an OE/dealer gasket (will have MB part number & star logo). If it's aftermarket, replace with an OE/dealer gasket. The aftermarket ones are not much cheaper, have minor fitment issues, and may not last as long. Make sure the "half moon" sections in the rear are properly seated or you'll have a massive oil leak. And if possible, replace the copper O-rings under each bolt... the copper seals are cheap aftermarket, but $$$ from the dealer. You MUST use the copper seals or you'll get a leak. Hope you didn't lose any.

Will take care of a leaky washer at the fuel pump check valve as well.

Uh, yeah, that is your #1 priority unless you want your car burned to the ground... which has happened to several people. Check the high pressure hose that exits the fuel filter, if it's cracking, replace that too (unfortunately, the price on that hose just tripled as of Jan-1). The hose is a very common leaker. See post #3 at this thread for photos:
http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8977

Will change my oil back to 5w 40 fully synthetic liquid moly once again. The mercedes 5w 30 has been disappearing way too quickly for my comfort.

Good plan. Burning a lot of oil can kill the catalytic converters ($$$$). If you can fix oil consumption by something as easy as using different oil, just do it.

 

[samm]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

If it's soft, it could be re-used, especially if it's an OE/dealer gasket (will have MB part number & star logo). If it's aftermarket, replace with an OE/dealer gasket. The aftermarket ones are not much cheaper, have minor fitment issues, and may not last as long. Make sure the "half moon" sections in the rear are properly seated or you'll have a massive oil leak. And if possible, replace the copper O-rings under each bolt... the copper seals are cheap aftermarket, but $$$ from the dealer. You MUST use the copper seals or you'll get a leak. Hope you didn't lose any.



Uh, yeah, that is your #1 priority unless you want your car burned to the ground... which has happened to several people. Check the high pressure hose that exits the fuel filter, if it's cracking, replace that too (unfortunately, the price on that hose just tripled as of Jan-1). The hose is a very common leaker. See post #3 at this thread for photos:
http://www.500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8977



Good plan. Burning a lot of oil can kill the catalytic converters ($$$$). If you can fix oil consumption by something as easy as using different oil, just do it.

Yup got loads of those copper washers fir the cylinder head cover bolts. [emoji106]

I'm fortunate that the hose is.not cracked or leaking. It's the check valve washers. So that will be taken care of.

I really must admit that I feel that I am really running a huge risk by not changing the timing chain guide rails. These plastic rails seem to be the single biggest threat to the life of the M119.
Seems like the weakest point. Great engine when working though!

I have had a look at the wis instructions. And yes it is a biiiiig job to take the timing cover off to replace the guide rails. This car is my daily driver.

Starting to think it's not a great idea to have a m119 daily driver. [emoji16]

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[nocfn]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

it will be a great daily once sorted, be encouraged - you are doing great work that will help someone 13 years from now....

 

[gsxr]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I have had a look at the wis instructions. And yes it is a biiiiig job to take the timing cover off to replace the guide rails.

As mentioned back in post 133, you don't need to pull the timing cover to change the upper rails. The timing cover only has to come off if you change the lower rails and these almost never fail. Pulling the timing cover is a Very Bad Idea, IMNSHO... far too much risk of damaging the head gaskets or oil pan gaskets if your name isn't Klink or Jono. I talked to the dealer about this once and they said the techs never replace the lower rails, and had never seen a lower rail failure. Still, replacing the upper rails is a major job, even without touching the timing cover. Parts aren't that expensive, but plan on it taking 20+ hours as first time DIY'er, so make sure you have alternative transportation for a while.

This car is my daily driver. Starting to think it's not a great idea to have a m119 daily driver.

Why would you think that? The chances of an M119 self-destructing due to a chain or rail failure is somewhere between being struck by lightning and winning the lottery. Seems you are overly paranoid about a problem that isn't yet a problem.

Shoot, Glen's black 500E didn't have the rails done until over 500kmi, although that would fall under the category of "don't try this at home, kids". And that motor was fed synthetics for most of its life and looked new inside, not brown & sludged.

 

[Stevester 500E]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I wonder if the carbon that builds up on the end of the egr tube (the end that goes to the intake manifold) gets dislodged?

...

I need to just figure out how this carbon deposit got so bad on the valves that it actually caused this.

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[Klink]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

I wonder if the carbon that builds up on the end of the egr tube (the end that goes to the intake manifold) gets dislodged?

Never seen that happen. Carbon accumulates on the valves, then due to thermal cycling and/or humidity conditions, at some point it falls off the valves in large pieces. If you happen to look at the valves right after this happens, they are often absolutely spotless, right to bare metal. The carbon literally "dis-adheres" from the valves, splits apart, and falls off...

 

[BenzMercD]

Re: m119 94 E420 no start

Good god, Can I get a TLDR on the diagnoses and results from the op. Kinda interested and wanna chat.

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