Multiple questions about 1993 E500

[Jelmer]

Hi all,

This is my first post on this forum; my apologies if its in the wrong category. This is a copy of my thread on MBWorld, where they suggested I'd ask these questions here, as well.

I recently bought a 1993 E500 in pristine order. Seems the kind Swiss lady drove it carefully, always had it indoors and wore silk gloves when driving. This, unfortunately, also means the engine isn't as powerful as expected.

Yesterday I did a test drive on the German Autobahn and I noticed a few things.

First of all, when driving 140km/h or so, the temp gauge tells me the coolant water is 100° C. I find that quite high (despite the 30*° outside temp and much sun). When I switched on the A/C, it rose to above 100°. I know that at this point both the mechanical fan *and* the two electrical fans are at max speed, yet the temp gauge doesn't go down.

When I tried to reach its max speed, I didn't get past 235km/h, with the temp gauge reaching a 110°! (Probably related, since I read the engine timing gets changed at high temps).

Another annoying problem that I have is that when the engine is only the slightest bit warm, both the ABS and ASD lights pop on. Recycling the engine a few times often solves this. I read somewhere that this is due to faulty wiring, but my kind MB dealership tells me it'll cost a few thousand € to replace.

Last but not least, my gearbox seems wonky. When flooring it (with kickdown) it sometimes changes down at the red line, then up again, then down again, making the entire car wobble quite badly.

So to sum up:
- Is it normal for the engine to stay at 100°C even while cruising?
- Is it normal I see the temp rising to 110°C?
- Any idea about that gearbox issue?
- Any pointers about the ABS+ASD thingie?

I'm sorry for shooting out all these questions at once. I'm just insanely proud of the car and want it in tip-top condition


Also, is there some sort of E500 community here in the Netherlands? I'd really like to find someone nearby to chat with, figure out where to send the car for maintenance (I now go to Stern Autos, which a €100/hour shop. Ouch.)

Thanks for any help!

[edit]
My vehicle data:
WDB 124 036 1B 940 142
M119.974 #007621

 

[samiam44]

I think ChristianK is in the Netherlands.

Sounds like you have some bugs to work out of the car. How many miles/Kilometers are on the car? Have the upper and lower engine harnesses been replaced? Those take a bit of time but are not hard to replace. You can buy them and install them for a fraction of what the dealership would charge.
Cooling system, these cars can run hot- but you need to make sure everything is in good condition. Thermostat, radiator, fan clutch could be showing their age. I would say at cruise 140 km, my car (6.0 L) runs cool even in 35-40 C weather, it will be 86-90 C. You can preload the spring in the fan clutch to force the lock-up to a lower speed for summer driving.
Personally, I'd spend some time checking and going through each system before attempting max speed. I have no particular experience on the Autobaun. There are those which can comment but 110 C would be acceptable. Does your car have the engine oil cooler??

Michael

 

[Jelmer]

You're right about working out the bugs first. Naive me just expected it to be perfect, quite silly in retrospect.

It's currently at 150,000KM. Neither of the harnesses have been replaced afaik. I do have a brand new thermostat and a new radiator (before I bought it).

if your 6.0L runs cooler than mine in hotter ambient temps, I'd say that there's something really off here.

Any links where I can order these components?

 

[gerryvz]

Hi all,

This is my first post on this forum; my apologies if its in the wrong category. This is a copy of my thread on MBWorld, where they suggested I'd ask these questions here, as well.

First of all, All Nederlanders are welcome here on 500Espot.com, as long as you aren't towing an "Aanhangwagen" southward going 70 km/hr on the German autobahn while on holiday

I recently bought a 1993 E500 in pristine order. Seems the kind Swiss lady drove it carefully, always had it indoors and wore silk gloves when driving. This, unfortunately, also means the engine isn't as powerful as expected.

Sounds like you got a real "sweetheart" of a car if it was treated so nicely. Congratulations!

Yesterday I did a test drive on the German Autobahn and I noticed a few things. First of all, when driving 140km/h or so, the temp gauge tells me the coolant water is 100° C. I find that quite high (despite the 30° outside temp and much sun). When I switched on the A/C, it rose to above 100°. I know that at this point both the mechanical fan *and* the two electrical fans are at max speed, yet the temp gauge doesn't go down.

This is not unusual for these cars, when you are driving at high speed and particularly with the A/C on at high outside temperatures. If you turned the A/C off it would probably be ~95°C. I experienced this on Sunday driving my E500 in 35°C outside temperatures! In normal driving the car is 85-95°C.

When I tried to reach its max speed, I didn't get past 235km/h, with the temp gauge reaching a 110°! (Probably related, since I read the engine timing gets changed at high temps).

Again I think this is pretty much normal for high speeds on a relatively hot day. I think if it was in the fall or winter you would see significantly cooler temperatures in the 95-100C range at this high speed.

It is highly possible that your viscous fan clutch is worn out and requiring replacement. If you search for this term here you should find out more information about it. The fan clutch should turn very fast at high speeds and when there is high load on the engine, to help keep things cool.

Another annoying problem that I have is that when the engine is only the slightest bit warm, both the ABS and ASD lights pop on. Recycling the engine a few times often solves this. I read somewhere that this is due to faulty wiring, but my kind MB dealership tells me it'll cost a few thousand € to replace.

This is more of a problem. Something is causing these lights to go on. Is the car going into "Limp-home mode?" -- where it has noticeably reduced power and requires a heavy push of the gas pedal to only go a moderate speed?

My initial guess is that it is a wheel sensor, which is the electrical cable that goes to each wheel and provides the signals that the ABS and ASR systems use to determine which wheels are spinning at which rate (traction and braking). It is not uncommon for these cables to go bad over time and require replacement. They are not terribly expensive and are a "do it yourself" job for the average owner, as long as you have a lift or jack to safely get underneath the car.

You need to pull diagnostic trouble codes [DTCs] (or have your shop or dealer do this) to determine what is causing the signal -- the codes should even tell you which of the four wheel cables is responsible for the code. If it's not a wheel cable, the codes ought to give you an idea of what else it would be.

I don't believe that your wiring harness is necessarily the cause of the ASR+ABS lights coming on. However, it is a good idea to replace at least the upper (and if you can the lower) cables to eliminate them as a root cause for any future problems. In the US you can purchase this cable for around $700-750, and it's about a 3-4 hour "do it yourself" job for a Saturday or Sunday afternoon to replace it on your car, in your garage or driveway. Definitely something you should do, but you don't necessarily have to pay a shop to do this labor when you can fairly easily do it yourself.

Last but not least, my gearbox seems wonky. When flooring it (with kickdown) it sometimes changes down at the red line, then up again, then down again, making the entire car wobble quite badly.

Can you give a more exact description of the behavior that is happening? So you are saying that it is DOWNSHIFTING at the red line? If this is true, then you have a major problem and would be in grave danger of over-revving the engine. It should downshift to a lower gear well before the redline and then UPSHIFT when it hits redline (or a bit into the red zone) at full throttle + kickdown. So please give a bit more literal description of a typical shift pattern of the type you are experiencing (start at the beginning).

All that being said, these transmissions can be a bit "dumb" at times with regard to shifting at seemingly weird and slightly unpredictable times and points (and sometimes a bit abrupt or harsh too). Much of this behavior can be adjusted out carefully by a good knowledgeable technician or DIY owner, but there is an element to the wonkiness that is inherent to all 722.3 transmissions that gives them a bit of a mind of their own. Perhaps it's a bit of the price we pay for their durability and longevity

So to sum up:
- Is it normal for the engine to stay at 100°C even while cruising?

YES absolutely in hot outside temperatures with the A/C ON.

- Is it normal I see the temp rising to 110°C?

YES on my many cars

- Any idea about that gearbox issue?

See above. You may want to get the transmission tested by an experienced technician though

- Any pointers about the ABS+ASD thingie?

Have a technician clear and then pull the codes and see what comes up. Then we can go from there as a basis for diagnosis.

I'm sorry for shooting out all these questions at once. I'm just insanely proud of the car and want it in tip-top condition.

Your questions are exactly the type that we love and appreciate here on this forum, and why it is here. Please ask as many questions as you would like. There is also quite a bit of information in the archives, and you can search for it.

Also, is there some sort of E500 community here in the Netherlands? I'd really like to find someone nearby to chat with, figure out where to send the car for maintenance (I now go to Stern Autos, which a €100/hour shop. Ouch.)

I'm not aware of any specific NL-based E500E forums, but there are definitely a few in Scandinavia and Germany if you Google them. There are a few NL-based members here, one specifically being "Robin500E" who is an expert in these cars and who can help you. If you do a member search for him you can get his contact info. His full name is Robin van der Hulst.

Just remember, no "Aanhangwagens," particularly towed with your 500E ;-)

Cheers,
Gerry

P.S. Lastly .....

P.P.S. The best place in Europe that I know of to order MB parts (if you can get them) is Speed Autoteile in Berlin, Germany. You should call them to see what they will charge for the parts you need.

 

[Jelmer]

First of all, All Nederlanders are welcome here on 500Espot.com, as long as you aren't towing an "Aanhangwagen" southward going 70 km/hr on the German autobahn while on holiday

Haha! I don't even have the ability to tow something behind my car! And it'll stay that way

This is not unusual for these cars, when you are driving at high speed and particularly with the A/C on at high outside temperatures. If you turned the A/C off it would probably be ~95°C. I experienced this on Sunday driving my E500 in 35°C outside temperatures! In normal driving the car is 85-95°C. It is highly possible that your viscous fan clutch is worn out and requiring replacement. If you search for this term here you should find out more information about it. The fan clutch should turn very fast at high speeds and when there is high load on the engine, to help keep things cool.

Even with A/C off it was steady at 100 deg at 140km/h. With A/C on it went up slightly, and it was even below 30 deg C outside. I know for a fact that the mechanical fan works properly. When it reaches 100 deg in a traffic jam for instance, I hear that humm quite clearly. When revving the engine it revs too, and when parked for instance it pulls the coolant temp down within seconds.

This is more of a problem. Something is causing these lights to go on. Is the car going into "Limp-home mode?" -- where it has noticeably reduced power and requires a heavy push of the gas pedal to only go a moderate speed?

It's def. not in limb-home mode. It's still very strong, even the slightest bit of throttle can make the wheels spin. The 235km/h test run was made with both these lights on!

My initial guess is that it is a wheel sensor, which is the electrical cable that goes to each wheel and provides the signals that the ABS and ASR systems use to determine which wheels are spinning at which rate (traction and braking). It is not uncommon for these cables to go bad over time and require replacement. They are not terribly expensive and are a "do it yourself" job for the average owner, as long as you have a lift or jack to safely get underneath the car.

Awesome, that's something to check out. Do you have anything more information about this, so I can search for more info about this?

You need to pull diagnostic trouble codes [DTCs] (or have your shop or dealer do this) to determine what is causing the signal -- the codes should even tell you which of the four wheel cables is responsible for the code. If it's not a wheel cable, the codes ought to give you an idea of what else it would be.

Is this something for which I should go to the dealer, or are there ways to do this myself?

I don't believe that your wiring harness is necessarily the cause of the ASR+ABS lights coming on. However, it is a good idea to replace at least the upper (and if you can the lower) cables to eliminate them as a root cause for any future problems. In the US you can purchase this cable for around $700-750, and it's about a 3-4 hour "do it yourself" job for a Saturday or Sunday afternoon to replace it on your car, in your garage or driveway. Definitely something you should do, but you don't necessarily have to pay a shop to do this labor when you can fairly easily do it yourself.

I can tell for a fact that these harnesses need to be replaced. The outer rubber is falling apart, the wiring insulation is ... erm... either invisible or dissapeared. I can see the copper parts, at any rate.

Can you give a more exact description of the behavior that is happening? So you are saying that it is DOWNSHIFTING at the red line? If this is true, then you have a major problem and would be in grave danger of over-revving the engine. It should downshift to a lower gear well before the redline and then UPSHIFT when it hits redline (or a bit into the red zone) at full throttle + kickdown. So please give a bit more literal description of a typical shift pattern of the type you are experiencing (start at the beginning).

It's hard to describe. It doesn't go past the redline, though. When using kickdown, it should go to fourth gear at ~180kmh, but sometimes it switches up to fourth, back to third, up to fourth, etc. The quick shifting causes so much speedloss that it won't continue accelerating. I never tried to keep flooring it out of fear to make it worse, so I let go a bit of the gas so that it shifts up, go past 180km/h and then continue accelerating.

P.S. Lastly .....

Wow, that's quite a welcome! Thanks! Should I post pictures in this thread, or is there some general section that's better suited?

P.P.S. The best place in Europe that I know of to order MB parts (if you can get them) is Speed Autoteile in Berlin, Germany. You should call them to see what they will charge for the parts you need.

Thanks, that's exactly what I needed!

 

[Jelmer]

Oh, as a P.S.: it may sound like the only thing I want is go faaaaaaast, but that's not the case. I just want the car in perfect order, and drive in the knowledge it won't break down. The going really fast is only a nice plus, which I want to do only a few times a year

Oh, haha just my luck:

Our Office is closed from June 2nd until June 5th because of a public holiday.

Response from Speed Autoteile ...

 

[Christian_K]

Sounds like the car was pretty badly let down or not properly maintained. Optical quality does not count for me on M119 cars - proper maintaining that $$$-hungry beast is more important.
Did it contain a service-book in which the annual checks have been done by a Proper MB Dealer? I bet not, otherwise you wouldn't have these problems.

Nevertheless, the first thing you should do with a wiring harness that bad, is immediately stop running the car. I've heard alot people killing their ECU-Boxes/Computers with such badly worn upper wiring harnesses. Simply Replace it. It took me with 2 people 1 hour the first time on the first M119LH car i changed it and the second time only half of an hour. Its really easy.
If you have some time, i have contact to the MB's own Cable Guy in Stuttgart Germany. He makes the Wiring harnesses for 250€ for us, lower one was 65€ for me. Quality is way better than that cheap-manufacturer Delphi-Crap. Around 20 People in german W124 forums already got that contact from me and are all highly pleased with the quality.

Do a Automatic gearbox oil-change first. Use the proper oil, the proper filter, the proper amount of oil and of course also drain the torque converter... Most bad maintained M119 cars i driven with AT-Gearbox problems looked like the oil was never changed in the entire cars life. Totally crazy. We solved a lot of gearbox issues in my friends shop, by flushing the gearbox with 1-2fillings of the cheapest ATF-Dexron II we could get. When you remove the Gearbox Oil-Pan and see lots of grey-ish/brown-ish residue and the old filter is cloaked and/or even covered with the same residue on its top side, do a flush before doing the final filling.

After you've done all that, let all error-codes be cleared, drive the car a few hours and check them again, then post them here.
P.S. That a 500E goes only 235kph is not a good sign. No matter how hot it is here, the 500Es always reach 260kp/h after speedometer (real 250kph) ;-)

 

[Jelmer]

Sounds like the car was pretty badly let down or not properly maintained. Optical quality does not count for me on M119 cars - proper maintaining that $$$-hungry beast is more important.
Did it contain a service-book in which the annual checks have been done by a Proper MB Dealer? I bet not, otherwise you wouldn't have these problems.

Oddly enough, I believe it's been maintained properly. The Service Book lists "Andre Chevalley SA" which, after a quick Google, looks like a proper MB dealer. First service at 1470, then 10k, 22k, 33k, 43k, 48k, 54k, etc. No big gaps, all with stamps from the garage.

Nevertheless, the first thing you should do with a wiring harness that bad, is immediately stop running the car. I've heard alot people killing their ECU-Boxes/Computers with such badly worn upper wiring harnesses. Simply Replace it. It took me with 2 people 1 hour the first time on the first M119LH car i changed it and the second time only half of an hour. Its really easy.
If you have some time, i have contact to the MB's own Cable Guy in Stuttgart Germany. He makes the Wiring harnesses for 250€ for us, lower one was 65€ for me.

Please PM or email me with info. For these figures I'll buy both today, even.

Do a Automatic gearbox oil-change first. Use the proper oil, the proper filter, the proper amount of oil and of course also drain the torque converter... Most bad maintained M119 cars i driven with AT-Gearbox problems looked like the oil was never changed in the entire cars life. Totally crazy. We solved a lot of gearbox issues in my friends shop, by flushing the gearbox with 1-2fillings of the cheapest ATF-Dexron II we could get. When you remove the Gearbox Oil-Pan and see lots of grey-ish/brown-ish residue and the old filter is cloaked and/or even covered with the same residue on its top side, do a flush before doing the final filling.

Hmm, I'm confused. I can't remember if they replaced the oil or if they only filled it up. I believe the latter. I'll check the oil asap.

After you've done all that, let all error-codes be cleared, drive the car a few hours and check them again, then post them here.
P.S. That a 500E goes only 235kph is not a good sign. No matter how hot it is here, the 500Es always reach 260kp/h after speedometer (real 250kph) ;-)

Again, though, can I check and clear the codes myself, or do I need someone to help with that?

 

[Christian_K]

Hi,
if it was proper maintained, don't you think it would have a lot less severe issues? I mean for me a proper maintained car runs perfect or just with the slightest issues technically wise.

I'll send you the contact data for wiring harness. Dunno if he also speaks english though, you should try it. Otherwise we can do that also over me. But you have to be patient. He manufactures those on demand and this takes almost a week until it reaches you, or even longer for you since you are outside of germany.
Also you then have to send your broken one as return to him, as there are 2 plugs which he always have to use the old one, remanufacture them, as the new ones are not available to buy anymore.

For your gearbox Problems, here in germany the golden rule for MB AT-gearboxes is: If you have any problems with them (the older ones we use in W124, etc) first thing is to make a full oil change.

Error-codes should be proper read-out with a digital scanner. Your MB-Dealer or any other non-brand shop which has the MB Stardiagnosis System is the right spot to look at. It doens't cost that much such a readout. Prices was like 60€ here in germany at a MB-Dealers Shop, others told me they even only had to pay something in the coffee-cup (10-20€ maybe).

Ahh i forgot, the temperature Problems may indicate a lot different things. How much KM has the car now? I bet it still has the old original thermostate... If the cooling-liquid was never changed then also do this. MB recommends to do this every 2 years or so, IIRC, on my cars i always done that every 4-5 years.

 

[Jelmer]

Christian,

German shouldn't be a problem, if it takes a week (or two) for the cables to arrive, that's also OK.

You're probably right about the severe issues. Maybe they just made it look good again and fixed all the stuff temporary to be able to sell it, I don't know. I do know that I'm completely in love with this car and will spend any money I need to to get it to perfect condition again.

Nearly at 150,000km now, thermostate has been replaced a few weeks back (it was broken; never reached it's operating temperature) and that also changed a lot of the cooling liquid.

 

[Christian_K]

Ok, if the thermostate was replaced and also the cooling renewed then it could be either a cloaked radiator/cooler or a broken viscous-clutch like indicated earlier...
Especially during normal Autobahn driving, even in summer with AC on, the Temps shouldn't go past 100° and nowhere near 110° while you on the move. Stucked in traffic or driving in cities in hot summer + AC on, with a lot stop and go, yes then it can go up to the 110°C spot, but should be cooling down again as soon as the electric coolers start (Viscous clutch also required as "working"), everything else pointing to something as "broken".

 

[Jelmer]

Electric coolers are modified now with a resistor; they switch on at 100deg, meaning that 110deg was with all three fans at maximum ...

 

[gsxr]

100°C on the dash gauge in 30C (86F) ambient temp is high, for cruising at 140kph (87mph) with the AC off. Something closer to 90C would be more appropriate. Even with the AC on it shouldn't be above ~95C if the cooling system is working properly. It definitely SHOULD NOT be at 110°C when cruising at freeway speeds, with or without AC.

I would suspect that the mechanical fan clutch is not working properly, and/or there is debris in the fins of the radiator / condenser. Check that first. Also verify that the radiator cap is holding pressure, and that there are no leaks in the cooling system.

It's a common misconception that these cars "run hot". Yes, they may run warm while at low speeds in town. 100-105C may be normal at low speeds with AC on in high ambient temps, maybe 110C if parked & idling for long periods. But at freeway speeds, the engine temps should be much lower if everything is working normally.

Next time the engine temp is ~100C, stop the car in a quiet area, lower the driver door window, and s-l-o-w-l-y increase engine RPM from idle to about 3000rpm. You should be able to hear the fan roar very loudly as RPM increases. If there is no fan roar above ~1000rpm with the temp at 90-100C or higher, the fan clutch is not engaging properly, most likely indicating a defective clutch.

 

[gerryvz]

It may also be a good idea to check out your coolant temperature sender to ensure that the temperatures that it is indicating, are indeed reflective of the actual coolant temps. Just as with speedometers, there can be some discrepancy with coolant temps.

I can most definitely say that on hot and humid days (90-100F), driving 80-90 MPH on the freeways here in Texas, with the A/C on, I can certainly experience indicated temperatures of 95-100C. If I'm climbing and/or putting any sort of load on the car, temps will definitely see 100+C.

Sitting at long traffic lights or idling for 10-15 minutes in a parking lot on a 95F day with A/C on, definitely will [eventually] see indicated needle midway between the 100C and 120C marks. I've never seen my car ABOVE 110C even idling.

I consider high-speed autobahn driving to put a load on the engine, particularly in hillier or mountainous areas in central and southern Germany. Thus temps would likely be a bit higher than normal in these conditions. In general, I don't get alarmed unless things get above the 100C marker.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Jelmer]

Thanks for the feedback so far. I can say for sure that I hear the far roar, and shortly after, see the temp needle drop quickly. When I do this, I feel hot air pass me. When the other two fans also join the fun it's even hot on the legs when standing near the front doors

gerryvz, your reply is a bit confusing. You say you see the temp needle climb to 100C+ every now and then, but also that you get alarmed when that happens. So, if you get alarmed, what action do you take?

My to-do list is now:
- replace both wire harnesses
- replace all temperature senders
- change automatic gearbox fluid
- change coolant fluid

Should I somehow "clean" the engine while changing coolant fluid?

Something that surprised me today after stopping for gas: During my trip to Germany, I averaged 1L per 7.7KM (so 18.1mpg). I drove 300km in 3 hours, that's with a few stops, off-highway, getting lost, etc. So without that, my average highway speed would be MUCH higher, yet it's still pretty economical (well, for a V8)!

 

[gerryvz]

I don't take any action when the needle climbs above 100C, just watch it. There's not much you can do if you're sitting in traffic. I guess if you're sitting in a parking lot you can turn the car off.

If I was driving fast and it hit 100C, and it was a hot day outside and I had A/C on, I would only watch it because the temp would go back down pretty soon to a more acceptable 90-95C.

 

[Jelmer]

Right, clear enough. Other question, though: is there an online version of the MB parts catalogue? I'm working on a wishlist would prefer to be able to figure out what part numbers I need, instead of describing it to some MB Dealer person...

 

[gerryvz]

MBUSA offers free access to the online EPC here: http://epc.startekinfo.com But I don't think it's available to non-North America people. I believe MB charges for this data for Europeans.

Other than that, there are some options documented in this thread:

http://500eboard.com/forums/showthread.php?445-Russian-online-EPC

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Jimbo]

http://500e.nl/

Hoi...I'm not sure how far you are from Marco...but he and his shop men are E500E friendly....if you need expert help.

Next time I come to A-dam I would like to hook up with you Nederlander 500E volk ! I usually stay right on Hemony Straat downtown in my friends apt.

 

[Jelmer]

Thanks, Jimbo, I'll contact him next Monday!

He has some nice cars for sale, too, darn it

 

[gerryvz]

Yes Jimbo runs in some pretty classy circles .... has friends in high places.

 

[Jelmer]

Wow, Marco responds quickly!

Nice fact, the interior is called "Brazil" leather. Also, according to him there are only two known E500s in this Smoke Silver + Brazil leather in the Netherlands. Whoohoo

 

[Jelmer]

I've been playing with the visco fan, and it doesn't feel quite right. It turns on alright, but if my engine hits 2500+ rpm, it always seems to stop, even if the engine temp is still 95C. If I let it idle for a few seconds, it switches on again, and stays on for a long time even if I let the RPM slowly climb to 1500 or so. That gets it back to ~90C.

Perhaps that visco thingie isn't really working well, as well....

 

[gsxr]

FSM indicates that when engaged, it should stay engaged to at least 3000rpm (specs aren't clear).

http://www.w124-zone.com/downloads/MB%2 ... 0-0020.pdf

 

[Jelmer]

Sorry to dig up this thread again, but I've got some new news. According to Marco from 500e.nl (he's taking care of it now) the oil pressure is too low. With a warm engine and 2000rpm it's not even at max, yet, putting the car in "D" it even falls down to 0.5.

Monday I'll hear whether it's just a faulty sensor or that (according to him) the engine is leaking/has cracks, whatever. Guessing I've got nearly all possible problems with this car.

Nice thing is that my replacement car is fun, too, see attachment It's a 500SEL from '84 with 106k km on the clock. Engine humms even better than my 500E and is unhearable if it's in neutral.

 

[gsxr]

It's very likely the oil pressure sender is bad, or possibly the gauge. The only sure method to verify this is to attach a mechanical oil pressure gauge (temporarily) to see what the actual pressure is. Or, just swap in a new sensor and see what happens - that's what I'd do. I've had to replace the oil pressure sensor in every one of my cars due to either leaking, or inaccurate readings. Pretty common failure...

 

[Jelmer]

Well, that's good to hear. It's scaring the hell out of me. A quick calculation told me that total repairs will get as high as €6500, higher of course if the engine itself has problems.

It's very odd though that this 27 year old beast starts better (my E500 has to make a few revolutions before it starts), it's running more evenly (no shaking at all in the cabin) and it has a lower (and more smooth) idle. Weird

 

[Christian_K]

If a 500E is properly maintained and all is Ok, you will have the same "effect" in the 500E ;-)
The Problem is, here in europe especially, the 500Es were driven - and i mean really driven... Most of them are more badly maintained and worn than other W124 cars, probably beacause of the insane repair costs if your not a Do-it-yourself guy. Thats why you pay in germany for good maintained cars 20.000€ and more :-(
But its worth it, really.... once a 500E runs technically perfect its a hell of a machine and makes even today sooooooooo much fun.

By the way, i was co-driver in a brand-new full-equipped W212 E-class AMG-Line, with the biggest Diesel Engine the last couple of days.... If you compare the quality from the W124 (especially the 500E) to it, you really start to know why the W124 cars and other MB cars of that area were called "Overengineered". The Seats in the W212, especially the rear seats are very uncomfortable, lether thickness feels like just a couple of 10th millimeter thick, really dissapointing for me...

 

[195910]

By the way, i was co-driver in a brand-new full-equipped W212 E-class AMG-Line, with the biggest Diesel Engine the last couple of days.... If you compare the quality from the W124 (especially the 500E) to it, you really start to know why the W124 cars and other MB cars of that area were called "Overengineered". The Seats in the W212, especially the rear seats are very uncomfortable, lether thickness feels like just a couple of 10th millimeter thick, really dissapointing for me...

A note on the W212. MB has managed to reduce the cost of W212 compared to the W211. It is also sold cheaper than a new W211.

Technical wise; Engine, Transmission, brake system, Suspension, even other electronic systems are the same or with minor mods. The W212 featured a lot less innovations from its predecessor compared to the W124 -> W210 or W210 -> W211.

 

[Alpina]

A bad oilfilter can cause low pressure,, a former friend of mine in Hamburg had this issue on his car

 

[Jelmer]

Since I already asked many different questions (and got many answers, thanks!), I thought it'd be nice to convert this into a "E500 diary" thread and post new developments here. If anyone objects, please let me know.

Got a good call, yesterday. Good news but also bad news:
+ Mechanic says "Engine runs way too smooth" for it to have cracks
+ Engine runs at about 75% max power -- so there'll be even more when it's all fixed?

- Upper wiring harness is completely and utterly shot to hell
- Another cable that runs to the alternator, battery and oilpump/sensor (? Must've understood that wrong) is also shot
- That cabling behind the engine (ETA, iirc) is also shot

Only after all three are fixed it's possible to check out the other problems, though their guess is most will be solved by replacing all these broken wires. Yay!

 

[Christian_K]

"- That cabling behind the engine (ETA, iirc) is also shot"

I Hear that for the first time... Or do you mean the ETAs own cable?

 

[Jelmer]

Oh, yeah, I believe he meant that the ETA has been replaced. After the upper harness and the "+ cabling" (?), he said the engine runs smooth, has proper oil temp and proper cooling temps.

Last item is the gearbox: it takes 3-4 seconds before it switches to its reverse gear, which is (thankfully ) not right. They're changing oil, filters, etc. Let's hope that solves it, otherwise it'll be even more expensive (he was talking about a "small renovation" or something).

 

[Jelmer]

Well, new update. Repair bill was €5800.

Changes:

• Upper wiring harness replaced[/*:m:18v41xfk]
• "Plus" cableharness replaced[/*:m:18v41xfk]
• ETA replaced[/*:m:18v41xfk]
• ATF oil+filter change, as well as flushing the "koppelomvormer" (torque converter?)[/*:m:18v41xfk]
• Fix ABS/ASR error[/*:m:18v41xfk]
• Install radio+nav[/*:m:18v41xfk]
• Remove alarm system[/*:m:18v41xfk]
• Fix oil leak in powersteer[/*:m:18v41xfk]
• Fix heating stuck at max[/*:m:18v41xfk]
• Replace vacuumhoses[/*:m:18v41xfk]

It seems that, as Christian already suggested, the previous owner drove this car like a madman. ATF oil hadn't been changed in ages, let alone the filter. All rubber parts (i.e. parts that should be flexible) where brittle, even the plastic connector plugs broke when you touched them. This probably means it had to endure quite some heat for a long time, for whatever reason.

Good news is that replacing the wiring harness solved many small issues. The engine feels much more powerful and runs more smoothly, the gearbox switches up and down better, and the problem with the kickdown is solved, too.

The bad news, however, is that (imho) the engine still runs hotter than it should (see: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=1525). Even worse is that both Marco and his mechanic say that the gearbox is facing a rebuild. It may take a few months, it might take a few years, but it WILL fail. All due to in-proper maintenance. The worst, however, is that today at the 3rd time I started the engine, the ABS+ASR lights came on again and wouldn't go off anymore.

So, all in all, it *is* getting better, but I still feel like I have heaps of repairs coming my way.

with some luck I'll head to Stuttgart again in a while, I'm sure I'll forget all these little problems on the Autobahn

 

[Christian_K]

"....the previous owner drove this car like a madman..."
All guys in Europe drove the 500E like a Madman, they were built to be driven like that... Why else do you want to have 326HP? For cruising with 100kph over the highway - well a 200D W124 would be enough for that ;-)
And there is actually no Problem with driving these cars that way, IF they are getting properly maintained - and there lies the rub - most 500E simply were not at all maintained here in europe when it goes beyond motor-oil and filter change. Most V8s ATF Oils were already coffee-black when i checked oil during a halt at a test-drive...
Trust me we i say that, i have test-driven around ~20 W124 V8s (70% E420, 30% 500Es) in 2009 and 2010 before i bought mine... 500E Cars under 17.000-20.000€ simply are all improperly technically-wise maintained, not to speak about the massive rust-problems they have on top.
It is a big shame that the "best" W124s are the worst maintained, at least if you look in the "lower" (actually lower is already quite hight compared to non-V8 W124s) price-ranges.
Thats why i say today when people in German Forums are interested about a 500E: "Make sure you have the same amount of money you pay for the car, available on Top during the next half-year/year - you'll need it".

But glad to hear that most issues are fixed now.
I would try flush the Cooling-system multiple times with a very very good cleaner which can solve rust, fat, oils etc. Don't use citirc-acid as a flush in the 500E though!!! It attacks the Aluminum of the Engine-Block!
I have used Vinegar-Essence with hot water to flush most parts, like the radiator before entering it in the car... quite amazing how much "rust" and other stuff came out of it. Sigh.

Btw: The "best" cooling-fluid you can get here in Europe for the M119s is "BASF's Glysantin G30 Alu-Protect". 1.5L Concentrate for ~10€ here in Germany. Mixing ist 50:50 with demineralized water is a must. Have it in my 500E too. Around 50% of the M119s cars in germany that i test-drove have had that sticker on the cooling-fluid reservoir, where it says "Nur Kühlmittel Typ 30 einfüllen", which references to MB own cooling-fluid "Type 30" especially for starting "Aluminum-Corrosion". People told me that thats just rebranded BASF Glysantin G30 - thats why i use it.

 

[Jelmer]

Got another odd thing (imho), why does this say "12 zyl"?

I'm beginning to think that the current repairs only scratched the surface of what's to come. Like Christian said, the gearbox hasn't been maintained at all. Although the oil change seemed to help slighly, it's still a bit... slow and odd.

There's also much more stuff under the hood that's brittle and will need to be replaced soon... Oh well, I'll just keep driving it and repairing stuff as-I-go

Oh, last thing: can it be that the Merc dealers just put pure synthetic oil in these cars when they service it? Our guess is they do, so I'll have to change it in a short while to semi-synthetic (hopefully that'll get the oil pressure up a bit, too)

 

[gsxr]

Apparently you have a late build 93, or a 94 model. The EPC indicates that ASR module is used in Europe after chassis B927761. Just ignore the 12 Zyl notation, this was because the late (Euro-only) .036 borrowed the dual-zone braking system originally introduced on the 129.076 (SL600) and they shared the same ABS/ASR module as well.

I don't know what the MB dealers use in your area, but there's nothing wrong with full synthetic oil; it's preferred over semi-synthetic, and Group IV/V "real" synthetics are preferred over Group III "fake" synthetics. If the oil pressure is low, the viscosity may be wrong (too thin). You want something around 10W-40 or so, not 0W-xx or xxW-30. The water-thin oils are for fuel economy, not engine protection.

 

[gerryvz]

From what I see, Merc dealers here in the US are putting in the 0W-40 "European Car Formula" Mobil 1 into cars they service, which I think is a Group III oil.

BTW Dave I've begun using the Mobil 1 TDT formula in my E500, and have gone to Chevron Delo 400LE 15W-40 (purchased in 5-gallon drums) for my dino-oil cars.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Christian_K]

If the oil pressure is low, the viscosity may be wrong (too thin). You want something around 10W-40 or so, not 0W-xx or xxW-30. The water-thin oils are for fuel economy, not engine protection.

Thats actually wrong.

A 10W-40 is a thin as a 0W-40 once its warm ;-) When the oil is cold however, its much thinner, which helps for quicker re-oiling on cold-starts. Try to use a old mineral crappy 15-W40 at -40°C and the same time try a 0W-40 full-synthetic at same temperatures. The 15W-40 will already be frozen at those temperatures, while the 0W-40 keeps thin and safe to start your engine.
Also the better fuel economy results from a) the base full-synth formula and b) special anti-friction additives these oils have in them (which many of them wont even mix with a mineral based formula)

Furthermore all 0W-40s i know in germany/europe are 100% true full-synthetic with lots of additives (many of them up to 35%) which help even more to protect at higher temps, (full-speed, max-RPM Autobahn driving for instance) so the oil-film stays and doesn't cut, because those additives and the base full-synth formula helps to keep the 40 Viscosity at higher temps.

A good (thats important!) Full-synth 5W-40 or 0W-40 is the best you can do for your 500E.

 

[gerryvz]

I have to agree with GSXR, I believe for most climates that a 10W-40, 15W-40, 10W-50 or 20W-50 weight is really the way to go. If you live in a clime where you are getting significantly lower-than-freezing temperatures for weeks on end, than a thinner oil is probably best. However, look at the oil grade specs that MB has published over the years that apply to the E500E and you will see that 10W-40 or even 20W-50 is just fine in most cases.

Then again, I've never lived in a climate with sustained sub-freezing (0C or 32F) temperatures where a thin oil was necessary. I did use and have used 20W-50 oils almost extensively and never had any issues, and that is in several locales including the Pacific Northwest of the US, which does see some freezing temperatures in the winter.

Here in Texas, everything is bigger .... including our oil weight/grade numbers.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[gsxr]

It is true that a 0W-40 and 10W-40 will be similar viscosity when warm, but only at the test temperature (100C, I think). They will not necessarily be the same at higher or lower temps. However the larger spread between the two numbers is achieved through additives, i.e. viscosity improvers (VI's), which are not desireable in large amounts. An oil with a narrower spread (i.e., 15W-40 instead of 0-40 or 5W-50) will likely be more stable under severe duty. VI's tend to shear down, at which point oil consumption increases, abnd protection will not be optimal. There is no advantage to using a 0W-40 oil instead of a 10W-40 in normal climates and/or when using synthetics. People living in Arctic areas may need something a bit different, but for the majority of the USA and Europe, the climate is pretty similar (roughly 0F-110F for typical lows/highs).

Synthetic vs non-synthetic is a separate discussion, but when using synthetics, there is even LESS need for super-thin oils, as the "thick" synthetics still flow extremely well at sub-zero (F) temps.

All the hype around thin viscosities (0W-xx) is strictly aimed at fuel economy and emissions, and is great for your Prius or Smart car. But in my M119, that is very much not my concern!

 

[Jelmer]

Time to dig up this thread again ;-) Thanks for the advice about oil. In two weeks I'll change it for a proper type oil and see what happens.

I think I just found a very important problem, if not the root cause of all problems. I have the feeling that the A/C radiator is somehow not letting much air through and might be clogged up somehow. My first clue was that the viscous fan helps much more when I pop the hood. You can feel the wind in your face and on the side of the car, but not much beneath it. The second trigger was today when the electrical fans turned on and I felt most of the air escaping on the sides of them (i.e., in FRONT of the radiator, so it's not forcing air THROUGH).

I tried with a can of compressed air to "shoot" through it, but couldn't feel any air on the other side. Tried with a water spray thingie, and there wasn't any water on the other side at all. I just dripped down and fell on the ground.

I'd say that after 17 years that's pretty normal, right? And might be a good candidate for some thorough cleaning!

I also took a picture of my temp gauge and marked the temp levels I see/saw.[attachment=0:3b78nmsr]moz-screenshot-5.png[/attachment:3b78nmsr]

 

[gsxr]

FYI, the unmarked line between 80 and 120 is 100°C. Your blue line indicates approx 110-112°C. Definitely above preferred operating temps...!

 

[Jelmer]

I really thought so, too, but my new repair dude is insisting it's 90C! If it's really 100C then there's some more screwed up. Even with that Cool Harness from Jim Forgione, the fans switch on (immediately to hi-speed!) at that unmarked line and won't shut off until it's at 84C again...

 

[szvook]

I really thought so, too, but my new repair dude is insisting it's 90C! If it's really 100C then there's some more screwed up. Even with that Cool Harness from Jim Forgione, the fans switch on (immediately to hi-speed!) at that unmarked line and won't shut off until it's at 84C again...

Your new repair dude is wrong, has he worked on these cars before? The Cool Harness you have might be the CH-92 model which will cut off the Auxiliary fans at 92C, but since the car is that hot, it might take a lower temperature then 92C before they turn off.

 

[Jelmer]

I'll tell him, but gently ;-) Yeah, he's specialized in "youngtimers" as we call them, but he usually buys & sells them, so he's not the true mechanic. I just like the idea of having a single person to talk to for every aspect of the car, he figures out who does the work.

 

[szvook]

He's not the true mechanic. I just like the idea of having a single person to talk to for every aspect of the car, he figures out who does the work.

Well, that explains it. I too prefer to have one person who knows all aspects of the car and in my case I have two of them, but they are both master mechanics (and one has an in-house body shop) who know old and new cars alike like the back of their hands. Those are the guys you want. Are you limited on good shops to take your car too?

 

[Jelmer]

I'm still very much looking around, to be honest. I don't think there's much on an 500E scene in the Netherlands, unfortunately. I'm just happy I found someone with a passion for old Mercs, who spent much time looking around for the best mechanicshop and paintshop around. It's a 50km drive, but still worth it to me. Hopefully I'll slowly expand my address book around here

 

[gerryvz]

Indeed that middle line is 100C, ***NOT*** 90C. In slow traffic on an extremely hot day, or at high autobahn speeds on a hot day, in my opinion anything on or below that 100C line is OK. If you are sitting in traffic for a long time on a very hot summer day (I live in Texas) I even think 105 (just above that line) is acceptable until you start moving.

However generally the car should be on most days in between the 80C and 100C lines, preferably (and usually most of the year) around 85-90C.

Cheers,
Gerry

 

[Jelmer]

Thanks for the confirmation.

Any thoughts about the A/C radiator, though? Is it a part that needs maintenance, needs to be cleaned, replaced, etc?