Runs for mins when cold then starts and then stalls repeatedly

[samm]

Runs for mins when cold then starts and then stalls repeatedly

Ok experienced m119ers

My E420 starts up when cold.
High idle about 1400 rpm
Fan clutch running on full (new acm)
Aux fans running slow.

Then stalls after about 3 or 4 minutes when reaches around 80 degrees C.

Start car again but stalls after a few seconds. Stalls in a sharp manner. As if some critical item shutoff.

This shutoff only started after replacing the spark plugs. I installed the normal recommended Bosch plugs.

Ive tried diff base module, two other LH. My T LLR module seems to have a damaged solder joint that I resoldered. Not sure what TLllR module failure symptoms are.

All vaccum hoses replaced a few month ago. I will do more testing on sunday again.

Installed a new o2 sensor a couple months ago but I was not happy with the 4 wire connections I had to make for it. I will be installing the o2 sensor with the correct connector
Any ideas with this gents?

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[jaymanek]

How old is the loom?

 

[gsxr]

The high idle is not good, and indicates the T/LLR is suspect (also triple-check throttle linkage adjustment). I'd verify you have fuel pressure at the rail when the engine dies.

What codes appear from each module, after you clear everything and the engine dies at operating temp?

 

[samm]

Thabks fir the replies..The wiring loom has been repalced in 2011 new.

The key thing I think is that this stalling only happened after changing spark plugs and also cleaning the insulators and applying a thin coat of dielectric grease on them. Rough running I would have thought would be the issue in relation to those jobs.

But total shutdown almost after the exact time duration each time.
I have tried attaching a video but it says too big. I will see if i can compress it and upload tonight!


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[lowman]

I would suggest you get that dielectric grease off those insulators.first step!They should be dry...not full of grease..whatever grease it may be.

 

[Relux]

Had this same issue on one of my 500e cars. And a 400e. Cam seals were bad. Oil gets in the distributor cap and shuts the car down after it warms up. Replace the seals and inspect the caps and rotors replace if necessary could very well be your issue. Easy fix.

 

[gerryvz]

NO dielectric grease!!! Caps and insulators need to be BONE-DRY.

 

[lowman]

 

[samm]

Hahaha

Seems like dielectric grease has caused major offense!

Haha.

Well it was worth a shot!

Regarding cam seals- this issue happened only after plugs and the dielectric grease.

Once again car starts first time and runs at high idle until it reaches around 80 degrees or so then immediately shuts off, not like a coughing stutter. Straight shut down.
You can then start it back up immediately but shuts off after a few seconds.

Will be attaching the video link to YouTube and privide the link here as the upload function is not working here..



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[samm]

Actually temperature on dash shows just over 60 degrees. So nowhere near operating temp.


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[samm]

Ok here is the link;

https://youtu.be/dUAV838dgas

[video=youtube;dUAV838dgas]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUAV838dgas[/video]
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[samm]

For anyone interested to know. This car was not driven for 5 years. I bought it and have been and am still fixing my way through it....very low miles and my aim is to get it to be my daily driver.

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[gsxr]

In the video, it almost appears the fuel pumps are shutting off. Can you confirm fuel pressure remains normal at time of shutdown? It doesn't seem like an immediate / abrubt cutoff (i.e., if the key was turned off), it sputters for 3 seconds (0:28-0:31) then dies. Which is why I am asking about fuel pressure.

That high idle is definitely not normal, btw. T/LLR, ETA, and linkage adjustment would be top items to check for the idle speed.

 

[lowman]

definetly agree...seems very abrubt when it cuts out.
definetly look into other stuff also...but would definetly get rid of that nasty grease on the insulators anyways.

 

[luckymike]

I read that you have a new harness but how is the wiring inside the ETA harness? My car would start but not go over 1100rpm until completely warmed up. Then it would run fine.

I mention this because the condition was completely heat dependent, even though it was a wiring issue. Eventually the car wouldn't start. I moved the ETA harness to a new position and the car started and ran again.

So, I'm wondering if in changing the plugs, you moved your ETA harness slightly and if you have bare wires inside, like I did, they've moved to a position which causes your current issue.

 

[samm]

Gsxr Dave
You are right the shut down does take a couple of seconds. I watched the video again and that seems apparent.
So I will hook up my fuel pressure guage and see what happens.



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[samm]

I read that you have a new harness but how is the wiring inside the ETA harness? My car would start but not go over 1100rpm until completely warmed up. Then it would run fine.

I mention this because the condition was completely heat dependent, even though it was a wiring issue. Eventually the car wouldn't start. I moved the ETA harness to a new position and the car started and ran again.

So, I'm wondering if in changing the plugs, you moved your ETA harness slightly and if you have bare wires inside, like I did, they've moved to a position which causes your current issue.

Hi Mike
I replaced the ETA with a 2004 build. I did check the wires and gears of the 2004 ETa before i installed it. All look perfect.
The T Llr module (similar to the Egas in the 500e) may have gotten screwed by the previous ETA wiring all touching each other.

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[samm]

definetly agree...seems very abrubt when it cuts out.
definetly look into other stuff also...but would definetly get rid of that nasty grease on the insulators anyways.

Haha the dielectric grease really didn't get on your good side!
I will do that on the weekend, prob Sunday.
Will hopefully take a video of any notable difference.



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[samm]

Hi guys
So this video shows when the car was started from cold.
I had not yet replaced the insulators. But aftr the video I replaced them and nothing changed, as I expected.

Just money down the drain I guess [emoji204]

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https://youtu.be/Tgi0F7PBz_A
[video=youtube;Tgi0F7PBz_A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tgi0F7PBz_A[/video]

 

[samm]

Checked for vacuum leaks visually, even though almost all hoses were replaced. Sprayed started fluid around suspect areas.

Does anyone know why my nrand new ACM fan clutch runs all the time from cold start
Even the aux fans run all the time from cold too

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[lowman]

https://youtu.be/Tgi0F7PBz_A

But aftr the video I replaced them and nothing changed, as I expected.

Just money down the drain I guess [emoji204]


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money down the drain indeed ..Would have been sufficient just cleaning them.But at least you can look at it like preventative maintenance
Have you done a diagnostic read out?

Im not completely sure..but if the aux fans are running all the time..i would believe it indicates an engine managment malfunction(or any other electric malfunction on the car..possibly just the AC system)..at least on maaaany other cars...this is the case.I would definetly do a diagnostic read out before doing anything else.

 

[samm]

money down the drain indeed ..Would have been sufficient just cleaning them.But at least you can look at it like preventative maintenance
Have you done a diagnostic read out?

Im not completely sure..but if the aux fans are running all the time..i would believe it indicates an engine managment malfunction(or any other electric malfunction on the car..possibly just the AC system)..at least on maaaany other cars...this is the case.I would definetly do a diagnostic read out before doing anything else.

I did read out all the codes yesterday actually.
Some false indicators because I had disconnecred the MAF sensor and the engine coolant sensor so thise showed up.

No codes on the T LLR eta cruise module.

The only interesting one is the Ignition Fault code that came on pin 19 (diagnostic).

But Lowman the AC does not work. I also cut what looks like a ground cable on the air compressor. Its so tiny.

This car has had many things not working because it sat for 5 years. Very good interior and straight body (but faded paint in places) as well as only 45k miles on drivetrain. So I am halpy to work through fixing things when I have the time! Have not driven it yet!

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[samm]

The main 2 codes that I found at pin 19 are:
-7 ignition system defective

-19 fuel injectors open circuit or emission control system adaptation in LH module N3/1 at limit.

I have cleared them and will check again tomorrow or Thursday hopefully.
Upper harness repalced with new around 2012 I think...

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[samm]

I wonder if Oxygen sensor could be doing this shutdown

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[gsxr]

Very unlikely the O2 sensor is at fault. The engine will run & drive with the O2 sensor completely disconnected (triggering codes of course), but it would not cause the engine to die after a few minutes.

DM code 19 is difficult to nail down without a digital scanner to view the actual adaptation values. You can reset the LH adaptation, which should keep code 19 away for a while (LH may not adapt if the car isn't leaving your driveway).

DM code 7 is very interesting. Are there any codes on pin 17 (DI / EZL)? If this keeps recurring... something might be up with the ignition system.

 

[samm]

Very unlikely the O2 sensor is at fault. The engine will run & drive with the O2 sensor completely disconnected (triggering codes of course), but it would not cause the engine to die after a few minutes.

DM code 19 is difficult to nail down without a digital scanner to view the actual adaptation values. You can reset the LH adaptation, which should keep code 19 away for a while (LH may not adapt if the car isn't leaving your driveway).

DM code 7 is very interesting. Are there any codes on pin 17 (DI / EZL)? If this keeps recurring... something might be up with the ignition system.

Ok because i installed one of those o2 sensors that require splicing and I was never happy about the connections. I have a proper one now but am yet to install it.

I hope I did check the ezl for codes. Let me see what I wrote down the last time i checked it...

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[samm]

Thanks for replying Dave.
Im pretty stuck with this car. I need to fix it in next few days because need to do Smog test..

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[samm]

Yes last time I checked it showed as
27 and 28.

27 This says LH data exchange malfunction.

28 EA/CC/ ISC data exchange malfunction as well.

I need to check pin 17 again in next coule of days to see what else.

Would a failed EZL cause this shut down?

It always shutsdown at 60 degrees. And fan clutch running all the time. This really seems like it shuld be a good hint?

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[gsxr]

I've never seen an EZL cause problems based on temperature. From what I've seen, either they work or they don't; there is nothing in-between. However if you have a spare it wouldn't hurt to swap out for grins. Just be warned the E420 EZL's are not interchangeable, you need the exact number or the engine may not even start. Should be 015-545-60-32 in there now.

Make sure you are pulling (and clearing) codes on ALL powertrain modules, every time. Pins 4, 6, 7, 8, 17, and 19. The old codes 27/28 on the EZL may be flukes.

You are rapidly nearing the point where an SDS will be required to view live data, to help figure out what's going on.

 

[samm]

I've never seen an EZL cause problems based on temperature. From what I've seen, either they work or they don't; there is nothing in-between. However if you have a spare it wouldn't hurt to swap out for grins. Just be warned the E420 EZL's are not interchangeable, you need the exact number or the engine may not even start. Should be 015-545-60-32 in there now.

Make sure you are pulling (and clearing) codes on ALL powertrain modules, every time. Pins 4, 6, 7, 8, 17, and 19. The old codes 27/28 on the EZL may be flukes.

You are rapidly nearing the point where an SDS will be required to view live data, to help figure out what's going on.

Thank you Dave

Yes I will certainly clear all codes again. I may get a chance today or tomorrow.

I do have a spare Ezl of same number. Thanks for the part number.

It is mind boggling. Car gets slightly warm near 60 degrees and shuts down. But starts right up again. Then shut down.

I doubt fuel pumps or the relay would do this because I cant see how the low temp of 60 would do this.

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[DerFuror]

...This shutoff only started after replacing the spark plugs...

I've had the opportunity to read your thread because I'm snowbound in the Hinterlands today.
You have a repeatable ignition failure situation regarding time, RPM, temperature. You state that the shutoff condition only started after doing some specific work on the car. You should consider refocusing on those things you have physically handled / changed / disturbed.

1. Spark plugs - New sparkplugs were installed. New sparkplugs themselves are pretty bullet-proof, but perhaps the sparkplug wires were disturbed in some manner. Most likely not a primary cause, but perhaps a contributing factor to the overall ignition error.
2. Insulators - Dielectric grease was applied. Degrease, thoroughly clean, then reinstall. We have become aware of the problems deteriorating insulators may cause. Similar to the plugs…most likely not a primary cause, but perhaps a contributing factor to the overall ignition error.
3. O2 sensor - You fabricated 4 wire connections to mate the car's existing harness. Incorrect data for ignition control (or lack thereof) could be generated If the connections are not "solid", or if they were connected out of sequence causing open / short circuits or false readings. O2 sensor data influences fuel mgmt regarding air/fuel ratio. This ratio can affect rpm.
4. The AC "ground wire" - You cut a wire connected to the air compressor. Little wires causing open circuits could mean a lot.
5. New ACM fan clutch - A remote possibility of this being defective out of the box. Regardless, the fan clutch & aux fans are on all the time. The Engine Mgmt System (EMS) could be receiving a false temperature signal, or short signal, upon startup telling it to activate the fans.
6. T/LLR module - You resoldered what appeared to be a damaged joint in this electronic module. Something definitely worth revisiting since it can affect throttle function & fuel delivery. Here are a couple Viktor reference videos which may help in understanding this module's function.

Mercedes T/LLR modules test
[video=youtube;C0bp2XU8fd0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0bp2XU8fd0[/video]


Mercedes T/LLR throttle actuator module. Non-ASR
[video=youtube;vzh7f81Jkxw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzh7f81Jkxw[/video]


Your codes are:
Pin 19 codes:
-7 ignition system defective
-19 fuel injectors open circuit or emission control system adaptation in LH module N3/1 at limit.

Pin 17 (DI / EZL) codes:
-27 LH data exchange malfunction.
-28 EA/CC/ ISC data exchange malfunction as well.

Based on these codes, I would concentrate on items 3,4 and 6. The combination of these items create the signals telling the EMS to shutdown in order to avoid damage

1. Install the correct 02 sensor for the car.
2. Reattach the cut AC wire
3. Obtain a good replacement T/LLR module

If this doesn't rectify your situation, then the SDS providing live data & more granular error code descriptions is your Alamo.

 

[samm]

Dave according to your knowledge of these engines, are you aware of certain things that would cause a shut down in order to prevent damage or something?

The Fan clutch is always on yet its a brand new ACM. And yet i see bubbles of hot air coming out if the small hose on top of the radiator after the car shuts down at about 60 degrees. The radiator is not a good one although it is newish.

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[gsxr]

I can't think of anything that would actually shut down the engine. (Klink? Jono?) Most safety items reduce engine output, i.e. retard timing, go into a fixed operating mode, something along those lines. But not shutting down the engine completely. At least, I've never heard of that.

I don't think the fan or airflow is an issue, and don't worry about bubbles from the 8mm aeration hose connecting the radiator & reservoir for now. Dumb question, are you positive the cooling system is totally full (no air pockets) and the t-stat is not stuck closed? Semi-easy test is if you get warm air from the heater at an indicated 60C (not cold, not hot, just warm). Maybe use an IR thermometer at the sensors at the front of the intake to verify the reading is somewhere around 60C as shown on the dash gauge.

Complete, wild speculation... maybe something changes at ~60C. For example, perhaps that is the point where the engine management switches from open-loop to closed-loop? Another easy test would be to disconnect the O2 sensor from the round connector in the transmission tunnel and see if there is any change.

Again, most of the above could be viewed via SDS live data, without data to work with you're kinda stuck shooting in the dark.

 

[DerFuror]

I can't think of anything that would actually shut down the engine...

The way I am interpreting this situation is that the physical changes made to the car are affecting the signals or line of communication amongst the LH & EA/CC/ISC (a.k.a. the data exchange malfunction).

Attempts of LH system adaptation within its acceptable safe range max out (perhaps from a bad signal loop caused by the data exchange malfunction). As a result, the fuel injectors are shutdown (perhaps the open circuit), consequently shutting down fuel delivery to engine & the engine's operation. These series of events culminate into the ignition system defective code.

I interpret the fans as a semi-independent issue. Something is actuating the fans prematurely at startup (a temperature signal or a short circuit) & their operation may consequently be feeding signals back into the EMS contributing to the overall data exchange malfuntion. A key feature of this overall situation is that the time duration, temp & rpm at shutdown is repeatable.

No doubt a good puzzle for pondering

 

[samm]

I've had the opportunity to read your thread because I'm snowbound in the Hinterlands today.
You have a repeatable ignition failure situation regarding time, RPM, temperature. You state that the shutoff condition only started after doing some specific work on the car. You should consider refocusing on those things you have physically handled / changed / disturbed.

(snip)

Hi
thank you for taking the time to read and provide a lengthy response.

I have gone and looked at any areas near the spark wires. Phyically touched everything to ensure they are in correct place. I think every single vacuum hose has been replaced by me a few months ago. Just the vacuum from the fuel vapor cannister has not been replaced. That would affect this though.

I totally think this issue has something to do with fuel air adaptation or something.

MAF WORKS because i blew on it woth the engine on and the car almost shutdown (high idle kept it alive).

I will at least disconnect O2 sensor to see if it changes anything but I doubt it.


I need to figure out what the significance of reaching approximately 60 degrees is to the shutdown.

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[samm]

I can't think of anything that would actually shut down the engine. (Klink? Jono?) Most safety items reduce engine output, i.e. retard timing, go into a fixed operating mode, something along those lines. But not shutting down the engine completely. At least, I've never heard of that.

I don't think the fan or airflow is an issue, and don't worry about bubbles from the 8mm aeration hose connecting the radiator & reservoir for now. Dumb question, are you positive the cooling system is totally full (no air pockets) and the t-stat is not stuck closed? Semi-easy test is if you get warm air from the heater at an indicated 60C (not cold, not hot, just warm). Maybe use an IR thermometer at the sensors at the front of the intake to verify the reading is somewhere around 60C as shown on the dash gauge.

Complete, wild speculation... maybe something changes at ~60C. For example, perhaps that is the point where the engine management switches from open-loop to closed-loop? Another easy test would be to disconnect the O2 sensor from the round connector in the transmission tunnel and see if there is any change.

Again, most of the above could be viewed via SDS live data, without data to work with you're kinda stuck shooting in the dark.

Hi Dave

I did install a new thermostat a few months ago. Along with ACM.

There were Definitely air pockets in the system because the blower does not work so I could NOT run the heater. The low coolant light has been on for a few weeks. Maybe some of the air has escaped. I will top up today and xlear codes.

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[samm]

The way I am interpreting this situation is that the physical changes made to the car are affecting the signals or line of communication amongst the LH & EA/CC/ISC (a.k.a. the data exchange malfunction).

Attempts of LH system adaptation within its acceptable safe range max out (perhaps from a bad signal loop caused by the data exchange malfunction). As a result, the fuel injectors are shutdown (perhaps the open circuit), consequently shutting down fuel delivery to engine & the engine's operation. These series of events culminate into the ignition system defective code.

I interpret the fans as a semi-independent issue. Something is actuating the fans prematurely at startup (a temperature signal or a short circuit) & their operation may consequently be feeding signals back into the EMS contributing to the overall data exchange malfuntion. A key feature of this overall situation is that the time duration, temp & rpm at shutdown is repeatable.

No doubt a good puzzle for pondering

So is there an interchange module or something that could have become corroded?

Several key electrical areas in this car have light corrosion on them from 5 years of being parked outside.

I cleaned up the fuse box but right now every single terminal is corroded.

There is some bundle of wires all connected to this rectangular terminal in the left of the drivers side footwell, that is pretty corroded.

The main electricity block from which the wires reach the alternator is a bit corroded too.

But these have been like this from before all the shutdown issue began. Before i just had this heavy misfire. Never shut down.

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[samm]

I have a fuel pressure kit.
I will attach it. Run the car until it shutsdown. I will take a video at same time.

Is there anyway to observe spark contemporaneously?

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[samm]

The 38 pin terminal points have corrosion too. Again though this has been like this for months. It will get addressed. But need to get engine to stay on first [emoji16]

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[samm]

By the way i did try ankther TLLR module yesterday. Same fault occurred.
On a side note the ETA stopped buzzing with the ignition on. It buzzed continuously with my original TLLR module.
Maybe the one I just tested is more faulty! Haha

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[samm]

Filled up the water.
Tried a different EZL.

Same issue.

Hey by the way today I noticed that I put the
black wire into pin 1
Red into pin 3

And whenever the yellow wire touched anything made of metal the LED on the code blinker tool lit up. Ignition was off.
This never happened before and I just used this code reader 3 days ago.
Does this indicate a short in electrical circuit?



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[samm]

Man. A few months ago I tried to correctthe corrosion issue by using a method I saw in several places online. Using baking soda and vinegar etc.

I just realized how much more corrosion this has caused. Both battery terminals have corrosion. Fuse box. And the terminal block where the lower wiring harness connects to behind the computers in engine bay.
More work foe me to do when Im so short on time

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[DerFuror]

Man. A few months ago I tried to correctthe corrosion issue by using a method I saw in several places online. Using baking soda and vinegar etc.

Ooh! You have a pH battle going on. The Baking soda solution is better used to neutralize spilled battery acid corrosion (as in the E500E rear fender well battery box). Vinegar (although a versatile all-purpose cleaner) is a mild acid & better used for glass cleaning.

You can pick up a neat battery terminal cleaner/anti-corrosion kit at any auto parts store. They work great.

For contacts, you are much better off using a product like NAPA CRC QD Electronic Cleaner.

You definitely don't want your terminals & contacts getting crusty. That can compound the problems you are currently experiencing.

 

[samm]

Hey thanks for the suggestions

Im certainly picking up some of tht battery cleaner stuff.

I have a good contacts cleaner already, got ut from Frys electronics.

Hopefully will not take too long to clean with a metal brush as it only been on there for a couple months or so.

I am really stumped about this 60 degree shutdown.
Today after it reached 60 and shutdown I let it cool for a bit. Started it again and it ran until almost the exact same temperature point and shut down.

So its definitely happening at this approximately 60 degrees celcius wvery single time.

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[samm]

I installed a new BEHR thermostat. I wonder what would be the effect if it is stuck open or closed? But it was functional when I installed it.
Man. Im going in circles.

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[samm]

So my next step is to clean all the corrosion off batery terminals and power supply block behind the big plug for the wiring harness.
Then at least that will be out if my thinking in trying to diagnose.

I thought I had the correct fitting for the fuel pressure test I wanted to do but I don't. I have the kit for CIS. just need to get the adapter for that.

I know the fuel 12v pump supply comes from the battery. So im hoping that maybe the corrosion is contributing or causing this issue.

I think the power to the modules and the upper wring harnesses etc comes from the power supply block that I attached a picture of in my post yesterday. So hopefully i may be in luck that this is the issue...

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[gsxr]

A generic fuel pressure gauge will connect to the M119 port... photos of a couple at the link below. I think the CIS port is a different size which is why it doesn't fit without an adatper.

http://124performance.com/images/tools/fuel_pressure_gauge/

 

[samm]

A generic fuel pressure gauge will connect to the M119 port... photos of a couple at the link below. I think the CIS port is a different size which is why it doesn't fit without an adatper.

http://124performance.com/images/tools/fuel_pressure_gauge/

Thanks Dave.

Ill get the Schrader hose fitting.

Cleaned up all electronic connections. No change. Well im happy i cleaned it at least

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[samm]

On the dame day that I changed the spark plugs I also changed the LH module and base module and abs module. Thats when the stalling began.

I will try replacing one module at a time to see what happens...

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[lowman]

On the dame day that I changed the spark plugs I also changed the LH module and base module and abs module. Thats when the stalling began.

I will try replacing one module at a time to see what happens...

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that is kinda relevant